Simple renegade fix.

[Leo G.4501]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

So you get that what the profession gets out of their summons is a profession balance issue. If you can understand that, then surely you understand that what the problems are and the solutions to go about solving said problems are also a profession balance issue.

Arenanet could try to solve the issue globaly (say designing and balancing temporary summons with a short invul period in mind) and have the issue solved for the rest of the game instead of having to find custom solutions per class.

Or they could have to deal with the same problem over and over again each time they add temporary summons.

Somehow I find solution 1 more elegant but hey bandaid fixes is a way to go too.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

So you get that what the profession gets out of their summons is a profession balance issue. If you can understand that, then surely you understand that what the problems are and the solutions to go about solving said problems are also a profession balance issue.

Arenanet could try to solve the issue globaly (say designing and balancing temporary summons with a short invul period in mind) and have the issue solved for the rest of the game instead of having to find custom solutions per class.

Or they could have to deal with the same problem over and over again each time they add temporary summons.

Somehow I find solution 1 more elegant but hey bandaid fixes is a way to go too.

Bandaid fixes is exactly what you're suggesting though. A problem with a mechanic is one thing, but a bandaid fix is a generalised solution that may or may not even be generally beneficial. A custom solution is always better. Besides, i don't think anyone wants the warband spirits to be like phantasms anyway.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

So you get that what the profession gets out of their summons is a profession balance issue. If you can understand that, then surely you understand that what the problems are and the solutions to go about solving said problems are also a profession balance issue.

Arenanet could try to solve the issue globaly (say designing and balancing temporary summons with a short invul period in mind) and have the issue solved for the rest of the game instead of having to find custom solutions per class.

Or they could have to deal with the same problem over and over again each time they add temporary summons.

Somehow I find solution 1 more elegant but hey bandaid fixes is a way to go too.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:How is my premise flawed? Isn't the Renegades summon expected to run its full duration to work its maximum effect? Is the core problem not that they are prohibited from running their full duration?

What does summon cost have to do with anything? Mesmer phantasms have cooldowns, do Renegade summons have cooldowns? Same principle, different execution.

Yes, mesmer phantasms gain additional value the longer they are up. What good is that though if they are never up that long? Say against experienced players in spvp, due to despaning after target death in pve or mass aoe in wvw? You are taking an ideal situtaion for your argument which is so unlikely that it can be omited.

That being said, you are way into class balance already instead of game mechanic balance when being so class focused. The problem is a common problem for all temporary summons.

So you get that what the profession gets out of their summons is a profession balance issue. If you can understand that, then surely you understand that what the problems are and the solutions to go about solving said problems are also a profession balance issue.

Arenanet could try to solve the issue globaly (say designing and balancing temporary summons with a short invul period in mind) and have the issue solved for the rest of the game instead of having to find custom solutions per class.

Or they could have to deal with the same problem over and over again each time they add temporary summons.

Somehow I find solution 1 more elegant but hey bandaid fixes is a way to go too.

Bandaid fixes is exactly what you're suggesting though. A problem with a mechanic is one thing, but a bandaid fix is a generalised solution that may or may not even be generally beneficial. A custom solution is always better. Besides, i don't think anyone wants the warband spirits to be like phantasms anyway.

What? I'm suggesting a base level mechanic fix to this problem instead of bandaid fixing this problem over and over for each new class which has temporal summons.

From the top:

• each class which has temporal summoned pets has a problem with their survivability

Finding a solution to this mechanic/design problem on a base level by say: making temporal summoned entities x seconds invulnerable and have them do 40-60% of their output during this timeframe would allow to balance a lot easier. This would affect all classes which have to deal with this mechanic. It would allow for a baseline of how useful summoned entities will always be. Get the survivability issue fixed for all classes. (or some other similar solution, just make it so that the issue of survivability is fixed)

Then off of that, balance on a class by class basis would be a lot easier since we don't have to deal with the same issue every class has.

You on the otherhand are suggesting that each class should get their own approach to fixing the survivability issue on top of the balance required so the skill performs in a proper manner. This is a bandaid fix just as chrono was a bandaid fix to many of the core mesmers problems (which now have reappeared with Mirage by the way).

How hard is this to understand?

[Palador.2170]

What if, when killed (not shattered or dismissed), the summons gave a recharge bonus to the summoning skills? (And energy for Rev.) Then the faster they get killed, the sooner you can summon them again. And that way Mesmer summons that don't come from a cooldown skill (dodge trait clones, for example) will stay the same.