A 10% damage trait won't make up 9k DPS deficit for Vindicator.

[Obtena.7952]

6 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

oki lets take this from another direction. we talking Open world Balancing. and the impacts on it for proffessions

is it a good thing that both elites given to warriors Fundamentally are worse at soloing content then its Core Specc?

Is it a good thing both virtuoso and Harbinger are very unlikely to be Good at soloing content either.

Is it fundamentally a correct decision to leave Elementalist continously on active defensive mitigation with 0 physical Sustain in open world content.

is it ok for Necromancer and Revenant to again and again laugh at Group level difficulty monsters in the open world while many proffessions have had no aid in dealing with the fact they simple cannot do it.

these problems have existed for Years upon Years. and anet have done nothing to aid or fix any of these problems realistically, if anything made the problem worse for multiple proffessions continously. explain. why guardian the most popuilar proffession in the game is Still getting buffed again and again.. while Elementalist one of the least popular have continously been nerfed over time.

explain why While the game has a Devoted Audience screeching for Ranged gameplay they've continously pushed Melee onto them again and again and nerfed ranged speccs regardless of their popularity continously over time.

One good change. doesnt negate the 1000 bad decisions they've made over time.

What I think about ANY of those questions is irrelevant to the discussion, because the game isn't balanced based on what I think things should be ... or any other player for that matter. It's OBVIOUS that at some level, some changes Anet makes to the game are based on how much they want something played. 

I'm not limiting what I'm saying to OW balancing. I'm saying that if Anet are making changes where they want to impact on how much people are playing certain specs, they ARE going to consider where those specs are being played the most. That's why it's nonsense for anyone to claim Anet shouldn't pay attention to how specs work in OW content, because it's likely MOST people are having their game experience in OW. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

What I think about ANY of those questions is irrelevant to the discussion, because the game isn't balanced based on what I think things should be ... or any other player for that matter. It's OBVIOUS that at some level, the changes Anet makes to the game is based on how much they want something played. 

game can be designed however it wants its success depends on its audiences opinons however.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Daddy.8125 said:

game can be designed however it wants its success depends on its audiences opinons however.

Yes sure and there is no denial that some significant portion of the audience has their game experience in OW PVE. That's why it's nonsense for people to continue to claim it shouldn't be part of class change considerations.

[Puck.3697]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes sure and there is no denial that some significant portion of the audience has their game experience in OW PVE. That's why it's nonsense for people to continue to claim it shouldn't be part of class change considerations.

Because People dont have a issue with the currrent OW PvE Experience, people want fixs to what they dont like not to what they do like why weould i care about vindicators Solo Capability.. knowing renegades so good at it?

i got my Open world Specc. what rev lacks is a Competitive Power option. so thats the role i wanna see filled

Edited November 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Because People dont have a issue with the currrent OW PvE Experience,

You don't know that. You can't just assume everyone running around OW PVE is just so happy with whatever they get that they don't care about how their class works.

Quote

people want fixs to what they dont like not to what they do like

Sure, players want lots of things. That goes without saying. It doesn't mean everyone will get what they want. The game can't cater to every individual's things they want. 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

9 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

You don't know that. You can't just assume everyone running around OW PVE is just so happy with whatever they get that they don't care about how their class works. 

If people arent complaining about it.. the company shouldnt still be trying to fix it realistically. people complain when they have problems.. and i never see People complaining about proffession balancing in game or outside when it comes to open world.. I mean every proffesion can solo all content lmao.. Open world wise u can play anything

The idea is elites to fill different roles. Revenant has Renegade a Super Solo Proffession. vindicator filling the exact same role if anything is negative all around because the proffessions gain 0 flexibility from that.

giving vindicator more DPS Doesnt affect its Open world experience. so why do we need to consider Open world Prior doing that? the notes Strictly say they want Vindicator to be a Competitive Power option for rev? so if we're going on dev design and patch communication. U cant realistically argue with the post. vindicator is SUSPOSED to be a Power DPS competitively. anet have stated thats the goal.

abnd before we say "but renegade Is too good in PvE".. no one plays anything but guardian Revenant and necromancer these days.. Statistics do kinda show this heavy lean towards these 3.... so ur very likely to have more then 1 rev in ur group.. and if alacrity role is filled revenant needs a good Power DPS Option to fill for fights where condi isnt so strong.

If anything.. i'd say vindicator is Mainly actually Looking to be Positive for SPVP / WvWvW then anything realistically. PvE wise i'd say it all around lacks.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Daddy.8125 said:

If people arent complaining about it.. the company shouldnt still be trying to fix it realistically.

That can't be true because Anet wants things to work in certain ways as well. I mean ... patch notes, read them. It's clear Anet are making changes because they want some things played more. It's clear Anet are making changes because they don't like how certain things work. That happens all the time. 

Just now, Daddy.8125 said:

The idea is elites to fill different roles. Revenant has Renegade a Super Solo Proffession. vindicator filling the exact same role if anything is negative all around because the proffessions gain 0 flexibility from that.

OK ... and if that results in people not playing Vindicator to a level Anet is happy with, I'm sure they will do something about it ... because we see them do that in patch notes with other specs. Again, this pre-speculation of the failure of things to change them before they even get their chance to prove themselves ... it's illogical.  

[Puck.3697]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That can't be true because Anet wants things to work in certain ways as well. I mean ... patch notes, read them. It's clear Anet are making changes because they want some things played more. It's clear Anet are making changes because they don't like how certain things work. That happens all the time. 

the problem is. Actively throwing changes at content they have no direct feedback on means they're making Blind changes. which isnt a Safe area to be realistically because they wont even know if the changes they make are what that playerbase actually want. Changes should NEVER be made blind for that reason. they could actively Damage a portion of the game making the wrong decision based on "What they think the player wants".

Yes Play rates and more are valid Statistics, but at the same time the play rates arent changing.. which would indicate they're making the wrong changes realistically. the only surge we've seen from the patchs in the last 4 years was a Spike of Alacrity Mirages Scrappers finally get a Role and Scourges start to be accepted into groups.

When the only rememberable things ofg a entire Expansion is 3 Specific Speccs did they realistically make any Permanant change to the play rates of proffessions.. Likely not.

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... and if that results in people not playing Vindicator to a level Anet is happy with, I'm sure they will do something about it ... because we see them do that in patch notes with other specs. Again, this pre-speculation of the failure of things to change them before they even get their chance to prove themselves ... it's illogical.  

well... Weaver never got that treatment.. so i dont have quite the faith to beleive they actually will do exactly that. Scrapper they did it.. but 8 years lmfao. it took em 8 years to get that specc working lol.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Daddy.8125 said:

the problem is. Actively throwing changes at content they have no direct feedback on means they're making Blind changes. which isnt a Safe area to be realistically because they wont even know if the changes they make are what that playerbase actually want. Changes should NEVER be made blind for that reason. they could actively Damage a portion of the game making the wrong decision based on "What they think the player wants".

well... Weaver never got that treatment.. so i dont have quite the faith to beleive they actually will do exactly that. Scrapper they did it.. but 8 years lmfao. it took em 8 years to get that specc working lol.

That's Anet prerogative at this stage ... we are in Beta testing here. We aren't talking about something that's even released. It's almost nonsensical to complain the numbers were adjusted at this stage. It should be EXPECTED we are going to see all sorts of changes to specs at this time. I don't know Anet reasons for the specific changes they make at this point. I can only guess that changing DPS values at this different points in the Beta testing allow Anet to observe how people are going to interact with the skills in the next Beta test. That's not unreasonable for them to do ... it's in development. 

[Puck.3697]

16 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's Anet prerogative at this stage ... we are in Beta testing here. We aren't talking about something that's even released. It's almost nonsensical to complain the numbers were adjusted at this stage. It should be EXPECTED we are going to see all sorts of changes to specs at this time. I don't know Anet reasons for the specific changes they make at this point. I can only guess that changing DPS values at this different points in the Beta testing allow Anet to observe how people are going to interact with the skills in the next Beta test. That's not unreasonable for them to do ... it's in development. 

while yes.. Vindicators patch notes do state clearly Anet intend to it to be a competitive Power DPS. so effectively Screeching isnt really Worthwhile as it should be pretty much expected if we log on tomorrow and its DPS is still to low we'll see further increases to the kit. we can see they're being extremely careful with buffs likely to prevent another power creep happening.

so the OP is rather Dramatic to take so early on. I understand your stance seems to be primarily on Open World balancing. i just dont understand at times why your so hard on it, Vindicators Open World ability will only get stronger with Buffs effectively.. the only time it'd be under threat is if We saw Negative impacts happen on its Sustain / Survivability / Consistant DPS effectively.

Outside those Changes DPS numbers etc etc arent so impactful on Open World. as Open world balancing is never done surrounding proffessions Maximum DPS As they're designed to effectively be done without boon uptime etc etc which u wouldnt expect to have in said content. I'd argue if ur good enough at proffession to put out 15/16k DPS your likely practiced enough to only reap benefits from open world content currently

Unless Anets stance on Open world changes and we see a Proper Difficulty ramp surrounding Harder targets / Elites / Map design problems will never arrise from it.

Can i see vindicator replacing Renegade in Solo potiental? No, primarily because Condi builds in solo world are now the norm considering how Overpowered Trailblazer is. for aslong as trailblazer exists effectively Open world players are stuck with condi builds effectively... because Power just is by default Weaker.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Obtena.7952]

13 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Can i see vindicator replacing Renegade in Solo potiental? No, primarily because Condi builds in solo world are now the norm considering how Overpowered Trailblazer is. for aslong as trailblazer exists effectively Open world players are stuck with condi builds effectively... because Power just is by default Weaker.

Sure ... if you limit your view of OW content to soloing champs and Bounties. I can assure you that probably that's relevant to ... almost no one. 

You know, my view isn't just about OW PVE but I do know that Vindicator isn't about 'replacing' anything or 'filling a role', so these arguments about how it won't be good because it's not a choice people will take over other specs ... just don't make sense.

People have lots of reasons to adopt specs. Personally, I'm going to take Vindicator over my OW Herald build because Herald is too passive and boring. I'm going to take it over my Core build in OW because Vind gives me two immediately hot swappable stances that serve two very different purposes that I need better than current legends offer. I'm going to prefer it over my Renegade build in some instances where I want that power DPS and flexibility. 

Again, arguments based on speculating how people won't adopt a spec to change it before it's tested ... makes no sense. It makes no sense to complain about  finer spec performance details and player uptake at this stage. We are in beta. 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kidel.2057]

19 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes sure and there is no denial that some significant portion of the audience has their game experience in OW PVE. That's why it's nonsense for people to continue to claim it shouldn't be part of class change considerations.

But most specs are completely viable OW PvE, even core specs or fun builds using kits and toys (see Flamethrower condi Guardian).
If somebody claims "this spec is not good for OW PvE" is either using a support spec or should learn to play. And if you're talking about farming and moster tagging, the game is already unbalanced on that part (and it's fine, nobody cares, you can just make alts for that).

So sure, they can take OW PvE into consideration, but that would pose a **very low bar** to fill. 

Plus if a spec is decent for Raid/Fractals/Strikes (or in general Endgame/Instanced PvE) or in WvW, it's 99% good to use in OW PvE too. 

I remember in the past I uset to follow meta builds for OW PvE, the full zerker kitten and such. Now I mostly only use WvW builds also in OW and it's way better.

So while I agree that OW PvE is taken into consideration because it's a key factor in the game success, it's also true that it's useless to consider that as your main focus, because you already get it as a collateral just by focusing on other stuff. The proof is that you can be playing as Core Staff Necro in OW PvE and that would be just fine (and also pretty fun) despite the fact that it's terrible. 
  

16 hours ago, Zenith.7301 said:

I didn't create this thread so this resident troll could take over it as well as every single other thread he infects. Stop replying to him.

Allow me one more reply 🙂 . 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Kidel.2057
added a reply

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

But most specs are completely viable OW PvE, even core specs or fun builds using kits and toys (see Flamethrower condi Guardian).
If somebody claims "this spec is not good for OW PvE" is either using a support spec or should learn to play. And if you're talking about farming and moster tagging, the game is already unbalanced on that part (and it's fine, nobody cares, you can just make alts for that).

So sure, they can take OW PvE into consideration, but that would pose a **very low bar** to fill. 

Plus if a spec is decent for Raid/Fractals/Strikes (or in general Endgame/Instanced PvE) or in WvW, it's 99% good to use in OW PvE too. 

I remember in the past I uset to follow meta builds for OW PvE, the full zerker kitten and such. Now I mostly only use WvW builds also in OW and it's way better.

So while I agree that OW PvE is taken into consideration because it's a key factor in the game success, it's also true that it's useless to consider that as your main focus, because you already get it as a collateral just by focusing on other stuff. The proof is that you can be playing as Core Staff Necro in OW PvE and that would be just fine (and also pretty fun) despite the fact that it's terrible. 

Depends what the goal of the change is. There are many reasons Anet changes things and if their goal is to get more people playing something, then it makes sense for them to consider AS A PRIMARY FACTOR where that something is played. That COULD be OW content. 

I mean, we are in the weeds here. My point is that generally, people need to stop pretending PVE content shouldn't be a factor in balance at all. Whether it's primary or not, just depends on the reason for the change Anet is making. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Kidel.2057]

Yeah, I don't know how this OW rabbit hole even started. 

Anyway, we'll see about max theoretical DPS in about 2 hours. I predict that claiming that the +10% is the only change is kind of unfair. Many weaponskills and utility skills have been seriously buffed, there is much less cd on utilities, you can camp Shiro+Archemorus, there is less energy consumption and, most importantly, you can use the +15% damage jump more often (and it's not a dps loss anymore, hopefully). Meaning you at least have +25% flat, plus increased damage on skills. I'm very excited to test the new GS5 personally. 

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Vindicator still isn't in a good state.
Some changes were definitely in the right direction, but this spec is far from done.

 

I have the following notes on my shortlist currently:

Mechanic change so stuff only flips when we press the new F3 is GOOD and hopefully fixes a lot of clunkyness. 

Power damage is still not high enough, 10% mod is not gonna carry us. 

Dodge changes make them look better now, but having just a single dodge is going to cause issues, especially because we are forced to play dodgeless if we want to have any hope of doing DPS ( +15% from dodge, 10% from leviathan).

Many traits still need help (like Redemptor’s Sermon and the stamina master traits). 

Support Vindicator still won’t be a thing. Still needs a niche when traited properly, let Victor bring Barrier and aegis to the table at least. The problem is that any buff you give to Support Victor might trickle down to the DPS Archemorus side. As such buffs should be done through traits, and those traits should directly compete with the DPS ones.

Urn of Saint Victor is still utter thrash. 

Archemorus got a minimal amount of CC, could use more. 

Spear of Archemorus still hits like a wet noodle.

Overall the alliance skills still feel a bit underwhelming when looking at their functions.

Greatsword still feels unfinished in some areas.

 

For starters.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Kidel.2057]

36 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Power damage is still not high enough, 10% mod is not gonna carry us. 

Again, this is false and it's not the only change. I'd be very much surprised if we only got a 3k dps increase since last beta. 

1. +10% flat damage from trait
2. damage increase to many skills, reduced cast time, reduced cooldown, less animation locks
3. damage increase on Forerunner of Death, plus 50% decreased energy cost
   -> meaning a 100% uptime of another +15% damage modifier
4. Possibility to camp Luxon skills with no flipover
5. No energy cost on flipover (not really needed for theoretical dps, but useful in real scenarios)
6. No pause/anilock at the end of the dodge, meaning even less dps loss (hopefully also faster dodge, but the notes don't say that).
7. Fixed number of explosions (always 14) on GS5
8. Reduced cost on Energy Meld -> easier to have a dodge available

I predict we'll get at least a 6k increase, hopefully a 9k (that would be decent). Let's see if I'm right in about 40 minutes. 

Unless there are bugs preventing traits/skills from working 😝

Edited November 30, 2021 by Kidel.2057
many typos