Bladesworn Criticisms: Dragon Trigger

[oscuro.9720]

This post will focus on the inherent disparity of the cost vs reward of Dragon Trigger on Blade Sworn. 

Warrior has some skills that massively underperform the cost vs reward balance that is established in the game presently (looking at you 100blades). Blade Sworn took this underperformance and made it the mechanic of the new spec it seems. 

First, let us look at the cost vs reward of Dragon Slash per the wiki:

Full Charge Dragon Trigger: 

Cost: net 3.25s cast time, 2.5s rooted charge, 8s CD, full class resource depletion.

Reward: 465 damage (competitive mode maximum damage), 1.295 multiplier

Now let’s look at a skill with a similar cast time (2.5s to just use the rioted time). This skill will be a channel skill for obvious reasons (nothing else has a 2.5s cast for a single skill).

 

Rapid Fire (competitive mode):

Cost: 2.5s cast time, 8s CD, reflectable

Reward: 1060 damage, 2.75 multiplier, Vulnerability, ranged.

 

If we were to assume these skills have equivalent costs (they don’t, DT has a higher cost), Rapid Fire still comes out with over 2x the damage with a multiplier over 2x that of Dragon Slash, while also applying vulnerability.
 

Now, let’s look at a skill with similar reward and compare the costs: 

 

Level 1 Eviscerate (competitive mode)

Cost: 1/3 class resources, 3/4 cast time, 8s cooldown 

Reward: 489 damage, 1.33 multiplier, might

 

Yes, Dragon Slash full charge is actually slightly less damage and multiplier than level 1 eviscerate numerically, though they are quite similar.

 

However, the costs are clearly different. Eviscerate has a rather long cast time, but nothing compared to a 2.5s rooted charge, .5s animation, and .25s cast to begin charging. Eviscerate uses 10 adrenaline, a far shout away from 100 flow. 

 

As we can see, Dragon Slash is massively underperforming relative to the other skills in the game. Should it do a Rapid Fire’s worth of damage in one hit? I honestly have no idea, but it’s weak and needs a raw damage an multiplier buff imo. 
 

Some of you may be wondering “why was I getting higher numbers than a level 1 eviscerate on the second beta?” Which is probably because you trained for more damage and/or the might generation on charge trait, which would give 25 might at full charge DS. This does not take traits into account, and only is looking at raw numbers. 
 

After looking through a few dozen skills to find what numerically matches full charge DS, I am sad. Some single hit skills that do more damage; gravedigger, might blow, maul, arcing slice, Frigid Blitz, Death Strike. There’s more, I’m just going to stop. 

Edited February 7, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

You're better off Auto Attacking with Gunsaber:
GunS: 2.4 coefficient over a 2.05s cast time: 1.17 ratio
Dragon Slash - Force: 3.5s total cast+ preparation time over a 1.295 coefficient: 0.37 ratio...

In order to be as efficient as the GunS AA chain Dragon Slash - Force would have to have a coefficient of 4.095...

So why should we ever use Dragon Trigger?

Edited February 7, 2022 by Lan Deathrider.5910

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I got interrupted by my toddler before I could pontificate more.

I don't recall if you were around when I was talking about these ratios before, Oscuro, but to clarify they are the listed coefficient divided by total cast time and known aftercasts where applicable.

For simplicity for non AA skills that don't have after casts documented I use the listed activation times making those ratios already best case scenarios. For AA chains their total cast times are listed on the first attack on the wiki. GunS AA isn't documented yet, but it's cast times in total line up with the Rev sword AA chain, so I used that as a place holder. Should be close for the AA chain regardless.

To me these ratios are a useful gauge as to whether a skill is worth using for it's effort over the AA chain. 100B for instance is worse than the AA chain on GS if the last strike of 100B misses, and DPS is the entire point of that skill.

Big numbers are the entire point of DS, and they pre-emptively gutted it.

As Dragon Slash and Dragon Trigger are now as mechanics, they are utter and complete garbage in competitive play.

What would be better would be for either Flow or the DT charges to be tossed into the trash, and for the one that remains to not decay when out of combat. Even better would be for that Dragon Slash to be a single skill with a short CD on F1. F2 switches DS Stances, (Force, Reach, Boost), each with their own CD and cycle in that order. They can be cycled freely on a 1s CD. F3 would be Trigger Guard as it is now. F4 would be Flicker Step but with 600 range. The normal weapon swap hot key swaps into and out of Gunsaber, F1-F4 are available at all times. This all would remove the chunkiness of the spec, remove the double resource charging, and make DS more worth using as then the Coefficient/Cast time ratio would be more representative of a DPS skill.

Dragon Scale Defense would have to be reworked. I suggest stability while using Gunsaber on a 8s CD.
Immortal Dragon would have to grant protection on a different metric. I suggest when activating (NOT HITTING WITH) a Dragon Slash.
Unyielding Dragon would have to grant might when activating DS, so before the slash hits, and have the might granted be based on the amount of resource spent.
Daring Dragon would grant stability upon using a Dragon Slash.

[Duglaive.5236]

Yeah, some quick napkin math during that final beta confirmed a lot of what you two are saying here; nice to know I wasn't off base. That said, I frankly can't see Anet doing anything about the spec - at least in the near term - based on the changes made between betas.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

Yeah, some quick napkin math during that final beta confirmed a lot of what you two are saying here; nice to know I wasn't off base. That said, I frankly can't see Anet doing anything about the spec - at least in the near term - based on the changes made between betas.

Other than kick CMC off the balance team you mean?

[Gorem.8104]

Yeah didn't we work it out during the beta test that in pvp environments, never use DT? I just remember that everyone found you just did more damage auto attacking. 
Not to mention you can jump over DT attacks because they designed them poorly. 
hahaha I can see this spec being dead on arrival depending on how they've balanced it, honestly its one of the only specs I was looking forward to after the first beta as I want to play my Warrior again. Please EoD, be kind. 

[Duglaive.5236]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Other than kick CMC off the balance team you mean?

 

I think he did a lot more than balance this go-round ... /sigh

[Myror.7521]

@oscuro.9720 the point is.... warrior were not played in pvp as it Was in pve. In pve all you were doing is spaming dragon trigger as often as you can. In pvp your more playing around that gunsaber Auto attack Chains, its 2 and 3 skill and of course the axe pistol to do decent damage. Dragon trigger Was more used for cc. 

How ever again anet decided to do a Patch for pve ...... the joke here is. Those pve Patch killed bladesworn right before it drops ingame cause they overnerfed dragontrigger damage (hard nerf for pve) and at the same time they give dragontrigger stability while cast it and remove the stability off flowstabiliser. So in the end they made it week af in pve (another bannerslave crap spec yays) but also killed it in pvp (no stability in pvp out of dragontrigger and that one doesnt see use aside of cc). So gg anet and no love for warrior again lmao.

[oscuro.9720]

55 minutes ago, Pati.2438 said:

@oscuro.9720 the point is.... warrior were not played in pvp as it Was in pve. In pve all you were doing is spaming dragon trigger as often as you can. In pvp your more playing around that gunsaber Auto attack Chains, its 2 and 3 skill and of course the axe pistol to do decent damage. Dragon trigger Was more used for cc. 

How ever again anet decided to do a Patch for pve ...... the joke here is. Those pve Patch killed bladesworn right before it drops ingame cause they overnerfed dragontrigger damage (hard nerf for pve) and at the same time they give dragontrigger stability while cast it and remove the stability off flowstabiliser. So in the end they made it week af in pve (another bannerslave crap spec yays) but also killed it in pvp (no stability in pvp out of dragontrigger and that one doesnt see use aside of cc). So gg anet and no love for warrior again lmao.

Yes, blades worn was played as mostly a midrange with artillery slash and cyclone trigger and DT2 for stuns in competitive. However, that doesn’t change the fact that almost every single skill in the kit had a broken cost vs reward structure in competitive modes. DT and Blooming Fire are just the worst culprits. I’ll probably make another one of these about Blooming Fire, because that skill could entirely change how the kit performs even with not DT changes imo.

[Gorem.8104]

1 hour ago, Pati.2438 said:

@oscuro.9720 the point is.... warrior were not played in pvp as it Was in pve. In pve all you were doing is spaming dragon trigger as often as you can. In pvp your more playing around that gunsaber Auto attack Chains, its 2 and 3 skill and of course the axe pistol to do decent damage. Dragon trigger Was more used for cc. 

How ever again anet decided to do a Patch for pve ...... the joke here is. Those pve Patch killed bladesworn right before it drops ingame cause they overnerfed dragontrigger damage (hard nerf for pve) and at the same time they give dragontrigger stability while cast it and remove the stability off flowstabiliser. So in the end they made it week af in pve (another bannerslave crap spec yays) but also killed it in pvp (no stability in pvp out of dragontrigger and that one doesnt see use aside of cc). So gg anet and no love for warrior again lmao.

Oh yeah I was so hyped from the first beta. Finally FINALLY we had a competitive pve dps spec, that can also have great sustain for open world farming. Finally a dps spec that allows us to top boards and be something other then a periodically dying banner slave as the necro stands in all the fire not dying. Then Beta 2. Nerfing Flow stab and its damage by over 20 thousand per second and making it somehow worse to play, while also removing a lot of its sustain and weapon swap interactions. 
I did call it of course way back before we knew about Bladesworn, it was good in Beta 1, so it was nerfed into the ground. If its bad, it won't be buffed. I so wanted them to surprise me but of course they were 100% predictable from beta 1 - 2. 
Essentially, the next balancing patch is what determines if its a playable spec at all or even worse. 

[oscuro.9720]

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I got interrupted by my toddler before I could pontificate more.

I don't recall if you were around when I was talking about these ratios before, Oscuro, but to clarify they are the listed coefficient divided by total cast time and known aftercasts where applicable.

For simplicity for non AA skills that don't have after casts documented I use the listed activation times making those ratios already best case scenarios. For AA chains their total cast times are listed on the first attack on the wiki. GunS AA isn't documented yet, but it's cast times in total line up with the Rev sword AA chain, so I used that as a place holder. Should be close for the AA chain regardless.

To me these ratios are a useful gauge as to whether a skill is worth using for it's effort over the AA chain. 100B for instance is worse than the AA chain on GS if the last strike of 100B misses, and DPS is the entire point of that skill.

Big numbers are the entire point of DS, and they pre-emptively gutted it.

As Dragon Slash and Dragon Trigger are now as mechanics, they are utter and complete garbage in competitive play.

What would be better would be for either Flow or the DT charges to be tossed into the trash, and for the one that remains to not decay when out of combat. Even better would be for that Dragon Slash to be a single skill with a short CD on F1. F2 switches DS Stances, (Force, Reach, Boost), each with their own CD and cycle in that order. They can be cycled freely on a 1s CD. F3 would be Trigger Guard as it is now. F4 would be Flicker Step but with 600 range. The normal weapon swap hot key swaps into and out of Gunsaber, F1-F4 are available at all times. This all would remove the chunkiness of the spec, remove the double resource charging, and make DS more worth using as then the Coefficient/Cast time ratio would be more representative of a DPS skill.

Dragon Scale Defense would have to be reworked. I suggest stability while using Gunsaber on a 8s CD.
Immortal Dragon would have to grant protection on a different metric. I suggest when activating (NOT HITTING WITH) a Dragon Slash.
Unyielding Dragon would have to grant might when activating DS, so before the slash hits, and have the might granted be based on the amount of resource spent.
Daring Dragon would grant stability upon using a Dragon Slash.

I did not see those posts, thank you for taking the time to write it out, it’s good information to read 🙂

I will give DT some credit; Dragon Slash boost is a decent mobility skill to re-engage and bait dodge with. But that’s not exactly what you want from that kind of skill…

Edited February 8, 2022 by oscuro.9720

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Any deniers of Bladesworn will immediately tell you that Bladesworn is too strong cause it is unblindable, unblockable and a big CC.

 

WE SERIOUSLY AREN"T LOOKING AT THE PROBLEM WHICH IS THAT BLADESWORN IN COMP EXISTS ONLY BECAUSE OF UNYIELDING DRAGON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Not shouting, just putting emphasis on how just that trait makes rn, Bladesworn even a point of discussion, since before I suppose you could go for your spammy little Lush Forest hout build which all warriors love the gameplay of 🤮

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 hours ago, Duglaive.5236 said:

 

I think he did a lot more than balance this go-round ... /sigh

As in bad design choices? The low numbers on DS are entirely the fault of his balance philosophy though.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

6 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I did not see those posts, thank you for taking the time to write it out, it’s good information to read 🙂

I will give DT some credit; Dragon Slash boost is a decent mobility skill to re-engage and bait dodge with. But that’s not exactly what you want from that kind of skill…

These ratios are purely from a damage effort comparison to the AA chain. Any other effects are not accounted for. Boost is great for mobility, and if paired with UD can be a great CC and is something that would not be accounted for in the ratio.

But that ratio and knowing what they are across a weapon set gives you insight on what is worth using for when you actually want to damage something. 

But Force? That is entirely for damage, and you are better off just using the GS AA chain if you are looking for damage. Self rooting for a multi second stun is a 0 sum game, so even taking into consideration the stun on UD I would not consider the skill worth using outside of a team fight where a buddy stealths me so I cancharge the stun. But one stunbreak negates all that effort.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

24 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Any deniers of Bladesworn will immediately tell you that Bladesworn is too strong cause it is unblindable, unblockable and a big CC.

 

WE SERIOUSLY AREN"T LOOKING AT THE PROBLEM WHICH IS THAT BLADESWORN IN COMP EXISTS ONLY BECAUSE OF UNYIELDING DRAGON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Not shouting, just putting emphasis on how just that trait makes rn, Bladesworn even a point of discussion, since before I suppose you could go for your spammy little Lush Forest hout build which all warriors love the gameplay of 🤮

Again self rooting myself for a long duration stun is a 0 sum game that is negated by one stun break, or JUMPING over the attack.

The issues with Bladesworn are almost entirely due to Dragon Trigger and its double charge mechanic.

Get. Rid. Of. Dragon. Trigger.

That's it. That's the key. Dump that crap and flush it into the sewers where it belongs.

Move Gunsaber swap onto the normal swap hotkey, move all the DT skills onto the F keys. Make DS consume Flow and for it to deal damage based on flow spent. Rework traits as needed. Since Flow outside of using AXE takes forever to build, they should consider this being the one warrior spec that doesn't have its resource decay out of combat. The low modifier would be fine at that point considering how much more accessible it is and what it can be traited to do.

If they do all that, then Bladesworn would actually be good and would be a real threat to people. As it is now it is needlessly held back by bad design.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Again self rooting myself for a long duration stun is a 0 sum game that is negated by one stun break, or JUMPING over the attack.

The issues with Bladesworn are almost entirely due to Dragon Trigger and its double charge mechanic.

Get. Rid. Of. Dragon. Trigger.

That's it. That's the key. Dump that crap and flush it into the sewers where it belongs.

Move Gunsaber swap onto the normal swap hotkey, move all the DT skills onto the F keys. Make DS consume Flow and for it to deal damage based on flow spent. Rework traits as needed. Since Flow outside of using AXE takes forever to build, they should consider this being the one warrior spec that doesn't have its resource decay out of combat. The low modifier would be fine at that point considering how much more accessible it is and what it can be traited to do.

If they do all that, then Bladesworn would actually be good and would be a real threat to people. As it is now it is needlessly held back by bad design.

Actually which Gunsaber skill is mega trash so we can ditch it and give back f1 t1 bursts to our equippable weapon?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Actually which Gunsaber skill is mega trash so we can ditch it and give back f1 t1 bursts to our equippable weapon?

And just make F1 for GunS be Dragon Slash, with the GMs changing what it does? Sure. They'd have to replace breakstep with flicker step (600 range though) and make GunS4 a full  block rather than a projectile block.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And just make F1 for GunS be Dragon Slash, with the GMs changing what it does? Sure. They'd have to replace breakstep with flicker step (600 range though) and make GunS4 a full  block rather than a projectile block.

Hmm, maybe that could work!!

 

😪

[Duglaive.5236]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

As in bad design choices? The low numbers on DS are entirely the fault of his balance philosophy though.

 

Oh, I totally agree about the current numbers have ended up where they are due to CmC's philosophy. And yes to bad design choices: it's my take he was far more involved in the "foundational" design of all the new elites as it were. Far more than usual. 

 

And I don't particularly like what this double whammy effect is producing so far 🤢

[Grand Marshal.4098]

In b4 Jade Mastery bot >>>> Jokesworn

[covahlam.6391]

9 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I did not see those posts, thank you for taking the time to write it out, it’s good information to read 🙂

I will give DT some credit; Dragon Slash boost is a decent mobility skill to re-engage and bait dodge with. But that’s not exactly what you want from that kind of skill…

Actually, DSB with unyielding dragon would be ok-ish if the rest of the gunsaber kit was compensated with a proper power budget.

Needless to say, the whole concept behind DT is broken (dumb). I disagree with giving the DT skills crazy power scaling. Either there is not enough reward, as is currently the case, or the reward is far too great and therefore the skill has to be a moonshot. I doubt a middle ground exists because neither a massive 20k hit nor standing stationary for several seconds is a fun experience for those involved.

So assuming DT is here to stay, a more realistic approach might be loading DT with other effects (full counter style) or improving the rest of the gunsaber kit while leaving DT as is. I favor the latter approach as this would provide an alternative style vs the rest of the heavily-burst reliant warrior kit.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

25 minutes ago, covahlam.6391 said:

Actually, DSB with unyielding dragon would be ok-ish if the rest of the gunsaber kit was compensated with a proper power budget.

Needless to say, the whole concept behind DT is broken (dumb). I disagree with giving the DT skills crazy power scaling. Either there is not enough reward, as is currently the case, or the reward is far too great and therefore the skill has to be a moonshot. I doubt a middle ground exists because neither a massive 20k hit nor standing stationary for several seconds is a fun experience for those involved.

So assuming DT is here to stay, a more realistic approach might be loading DT with other effects (full counter style) or improving the rest of the gunsaber kit while leaving DT as is. I favor the latter approach as this would provide an alternative style vs the rest of the heavily-burst reliant warrior kit.

The middle ground is getting rid of DT, leaving the coefficients as is, and just having DS consume all built up flow when used rather than having to use flow to charge bullets. The current coefficient in competitive on a 1/2s cast is completely fine and normal, though they'd have to tone it down some in PvE.

[covahlam.6391]

18 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The middle ground is getting rid of DT, leaving the coefficients as is, and just having DS consume all built up flow when used rather than having to use flow to charge bullets. The current coefficient in competitive on a 1/2s cast is completely fine and normal, though they'd have to tone it down some in PvE.

Well, yeah, there is that blunt-force solution 😀but I doubt they're going to scrap DT. Evidence? See druid, berserker, etc.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, covahlam.6391 said:

Well, yeah, there is that blunt-force solution 😀but I doubt they're going to scrap DT. Evidence? See druid, berserker, etc.

Maybe, but if that is the case then the only other way to make DS -Force worth using is for it to have a ridiculous modifier in competitive, or for them to reduce the charge time, again, but not reduce the damage done any further.

[oscuro.9720]

4 hours ago, covahlam.6391 said:

Actually, DSB with unyielding dragon would be ok-ish if the rest of the gunsaber kit was compensated with a proper power budget.

Needless to say, the whole concept behind DT is broken (dumb). I disagree with giving the DT skills crazy power scaling. Either there is not enough reward, as is currently the case, or the reward is far too great and therefore the skill has to be a moonshot. I doubt a middle ground exists because neither a massive 20k hit nor standing stationary for several seconds is a fun experience for those involved.

So assuming DT is here to stay, a more realistic approach might be loading DT with other effects (full counter style) or improving the rest of the gunsaber kit while leaving DT as is. I favor the latter approach as this would provide an alternative style vs the rest of the heavily-burst reliant warrior kit.

I actually agree with you, despite the post. The post was more to highlight how dumb it is right now. Obviously, as a warrior main, I wouldn’t mind a 20k burst after eating one or two from a range before…

Jokes aside, I don’t think Dragon Trigger is the biggest issue with the kit. Imo, blooming fire is the lynchpin skill rn, as it is the melee pressure source for the kit, and presently is a wet noodle. It should be comparable to maul imo (the cast, cool down, etc. are all very comparable presently).

On top of that, adding real utility to a few of the other skills would drastically change its viability, regardless of Dragon Trigger. Artillery slash gives cripple, that should be weakness so Blade can mitigate damage better. Cyclone Trigger should be a full block instead of a projectile reflect then speed up the cast so that it can be used in a more reactionary manner. Break step should be 600 range or give some sort of associated boon (aegis/superspeed)

For adding more effect to Dragon Slash, I don’t know what you could honestly do without making it OP in some way. For 2.5s and 100 resource that takes a decent bit of time to build, the payoff has to be inherently big, whether it’s damage or utility. 
Perhaps something like;

Immortal Dragon: heal on all explosions, then heal per charge (500) in an area around you?

Unyielding Dragon: Pulse the might to allies around you (does it already do this I don’t remember)?

Unyielding Dragon: Pulse stability per charge?

Those might work better, but I honestly don’t know. Still would need more damage than it presently has. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by oscuro.9720