For a game whose original core values included the elimination of repetitive grind...

[SatyricL.2784]

Edit: I am revising this since some people seem to be having trouble understanding the exact issue with this type of grind.

Currently, fishing is a great experience. That is, until you get to the part where you have to tirelessly grind for mackerel just to continue the collection. Is the length of this grind the important part? No, the problem lies in the fact that fishing itself is not an engaging and exciting activity. Don't get me wrong, compared to fishing in other games, its super exciting. I'm not comparing it to them, though. I am comparing it to activities in GW2 in general. As a result of this, the grind for mackerel becomes not only lengthy, but exceedingly boring.

Someone has posted a link to an article where Anet addresses their meaning behind their original statement of GW2 being an anti-grind game. In this post they clarify that collections and other such activities lie outside of this core principle. However, within that same article they also state: "That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well". That is exactly the problem with the mackerel grind. Its not only lengthy, but it sucks the fun out of doing the fishing collection. It completely takes you out of the game if doing the fishing collection is one of your goals while progressing in the game. In order to get the mackerel you need, you either need to be VERY lucky or you have to stop playing the game and start fishing for hours or even days just for mackerel.

SOLUTION:
 

• Add Mackerel as a reward for participating in fishing tournaments. Doesn't need to be a lot, and can even scale with your placement. This gives players an actual reason to compete in them as well as giving you other avenues to progress the fishing collections.
• Add Mackerel to the Leviathan event. Lets not pretend like these event doesn't need more reasons to draw people to it. Its a good event, but its out of the way. It spawns from over-fishing an area, but there's literally no reason for a fishing player to stop what they are doing and do the event.

This would not only bring the fishing events more attention, and connect them with the fishing collection in a healthy way, but it would also make fishing a better experience.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Harrada.8041
Revised for clarity

[Cyninja.2954]

No grind was never a core value.

The actual core value was:"Play what you like, you will always progress to some extent."

That translates much more into: no need to grind a specific type of content over and over.

This remains true for nearly all of the games gear items up to ascended and even in some cases legendary items which can either be strait up purchased off the TP or significantly reduced grind wise by purchasing manynof the required materials.

As to fishing, even here to the original goal holds. You don't need fishing for any essential items. You fish for achievements and legendary items or cosmetics. Some of which can be purchased off the TP, others which are not essential.

The false assumption that no grind is required is a relic of player misunderstanding and misremebering. There was grind in this game from day 1, it was never essential to enjoy the game though and it still isn't.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[SatyricL.2784]

28 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No grind was never a core value.

"We just don't want players to grind in GW2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun."
A direct quote from their release manifesto. And thats not a misunderstanding or taken out of context. He is literally talking about doing the same boring action over and over and over, as he makes clear with the sentence that this one follows. That's exactly what farming for mackerel is.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Harrada.8041

[Labjax.2465]

24 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

No grind was never a core value.

The actual core value was:"Play what you like, you will always progress to some extent."

That translates much more into: no need to grind a specific type of content over and over.

This remains true for nearly all of the games gear items up to ascended and even in some cases legendary items which can either be strait up purchased off the TP or significantly reduced grind wise by purchasing manynof the required materials.

As to fishing, even here to the original goal holds. You don't need fishing for any essential items. You fish for achievements and legendary items or cosmetics. Some of which can be purchased off the TP, others which are not essential.

The false assumption that no grind is required is a relic of player misunderstanding and misremebering. There was grind in this game from day 1, it was never essential to enjoy the game though and it still isn't.

Starts at about 1:22 if link doesn't go to that time right:

Basically, you are wrong.

It was a core value. Whether they ever adhered to it, sure we can debate that, maybe they never did, but the intention in marketing at least was there.

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Starts at about 1:22 if link doesn't go to that time right:

Basically, you are wrong.

It was a core value. Whether they ever adhered to it, sure we can debate that, maybe they never did, but the intention in marketing at least was there.

 

Am I?

 

The quote is:"We don't want players to grind the same enemy over and over and change how combat works."

 

It directly references how other MMOs 10 years ago were designed with killing the same enemy over and over and over again to get something specific off them which you could get only there, be it experience or a specific item, etc.

 

Context matters and given the game has had grindy aspects, especially in regards to luxury and fashion elements from day 1, I don't see how this has changed.

 

On the contrary, many of the original grind for items have become significantly easier to acquire and via multiple game modes. 

 

The issue here: the moment a player is unhappy with anything they do not wish to work towards, no matter how essential it might be, they immediately revert to the "no grind was promised" argument, no matter if it applies or not. In most cases, it doesn't.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Labjax.2465]

Just now, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Am I?

 

The quote is:"We don't want players to grind the same enmy over and over and change how combat works."

 

It directly references how other MMOs 10 years ago werte designed with killing the same enemy over and over and over again to get something specific off them.

 

Context matters.

Yes, you are wrong. You are claiming that actually it was "Play what you like, you will always progress to some extent." with no direct evidence that's the case at all, while being linked direct quotes from Anet's official Manifesto marketing video from way back when. It's also not even true to the way the game is, so idk where you are getting the idea that's actually what it was. There are absolutely things you have to do if you want to get certain rewards. You're even having to thrown around the word essential in relation to the core value I can only assume you made up, redefining essential as meaning "whatever makes this core value work as a way to accurately describe the game." It's silly. We can just be real and say they didn't hold to what they marketed. They haven't been doing so for ages now.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 minute ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Yes, you are wrong. You are claiming that actually it was "Play what you like, you will always progress to some extent." with no direct evidence that's the case at all, while being linked direct quotes from Anet's official Manifesto marketing video from way back when. It's also not even true to the way the game is, so idk where you are getting the idea that's actually what it was. There are absolutely things you have to do if you want to get certain rewards. You're even having to thrown around the word essential in relation to the core value I can only assume you made up, redefining essential as meaning "whatever makes this core value work as a way to accurately describe the game." It's silly. We can just be real and say they didn't hold to what they marketed. They haven't been doing so for ages now.

 

Here is the writen out version of the design manifesto:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Design_Manifesto

 

Feel free to find the no grind as you described in it. You won't.

 

What you will find is exactly what I described which is also reflected in the games design from day 1.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[SatyricL.2784]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The quote is:"We don't want players to grind the same enemy over and over and change how combat works."

 

It directly references how other MMOs 10 years ago were designed with killing the same enemy over and over and over again to get something specific off them which you could get only there, be it experience or a specific item, etc.

Thats not the quote. Youre rewording it to fit what you want it to say. Its pretty clear he is talking about grindy gameplay in general.

 

Quote

Context matters and given the game has had grindy aspects, especially in regards to luxury and fashion elements from day 1, I don't see how this has changed.

Context does matter. So lets go over some. Most, if not all aspects of grind in GW2 are based on a fair trade of effort in return for reward. Meaning you complete a series of tasks and your effort is rewarded with whatever it is you are "grinding" for. This is the first time they have introduced such an egregious RNG based grind with no way to EARN it.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Here is the writen out version of the design manifesto:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Design_Manifesto

 

Feel free to find the no grind as you described in it. You won't.

 

What you will find is exactly what I described which is also reflected in the games design feom day 1.

Just did:

"But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn't fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn't suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn't make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun"

"It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren't about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment."

[Cyninja.2954]

4 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Just did:

"But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn't fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn't suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn't make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun"

"It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren't about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment."

 

Yes, and all of that applies to gearing and playing doesn't it?

 

You don't have to prepare to ge the reward. You can immediately work on said reward. 

 

You don't have to get the specific gear to get that other gear.

 

You don't have to prepare for fishing to then go for the rewards you desire.

 

So, no grind does not apply here. 

At no point anywhere is it stated that everything will be handed to you immediatly. The only promise is and always has been: you won't have to grind something to be able to do something else. Those are very! different promises.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Labjax.2465]

27 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Yes, and all of that applies to gearing and playing doesn't it?

 

You don't have to prepare to ge the reward. You can immediately work on said reward. 

 

You don't have to get the specific gear to get that other gear.

 

You don't have to prepare for fishing to then go for the rewards you desire.

 

So, no grind does not apply here. 

At no point anywhere is it stated that everything will be handed to you immediatly. The only promise is and always has been: you won't have to grind something to be able to do something else. Those are very! different promises.

I don't understand why you're so insistent on defending this point. You're obviously wrong, you're just redefining the word grind at this point and ignoring the words of their own manifesto.

Prime example:

"Our games aren't about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward." <- legendaries

You can't call those not a grind. They absolutely are. Being able to mix up how you grind for them a little bit doesn't make them not a grind.

Another example from my personal experience coming back to the game and playing a new character: having to grind out hero points and piece together gear with the help of a wiki as to where to get it to be able to start having fun doing a build I wanted to do. This game is actually even more grindy than some when it comes to builds, in particular. They may not make you continue on a gear treadmill after you've earned stuff, but if you want to use a new elite specialization, you have to unlock it. If you want a gearset with slightly different stats (of which there are tons of stat combinations) you have to go grind it out.

I haven't touched the build or gear for the character I mentioned since I got it set up with the right gear. The prospect of creating another build is daunting. I have to acquire an entirely other set of gear and I don't even have all my elite specializations unlocked yet, so I can't just play around with them.

[Cyninja.2954]

38 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't understand why you're so insistent on defending this point. You're obviously wrong, you're just redefining the word grind at this point and ignoring the words of their own manifesto.

No, I am reading and using the context of what was said, not applying my wishful thinking to it.

 

Quote

Prime example:

"Our games aren't about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward." <- legendaries

Legendaries have been in the game from day 1.

 

They were never mandatory and have always been a huge grind.

 

As have some past and present achievements. As such grind has always been a part of this game.

 

Quote

You can't call those not a grind. They absolutely are. Being able to mix up how you grind for them a little bit doesn't make them not a grind.

I didn't call them not a grind.

 

I literally said: there have been grindy elements in the game from day 1, obviously showing that either the developers failed their manifesto from day 1, or the lore likely explanation: players misunderstanding the actual meaning and intent of the manifesto.

 

Legendarys were never mandatory gear and only recently became even useful, yet still not required.

 

In the meantime all other gear options were made tremendously easier to acquire. Players today are showered in exotic gear and even ascended.

 

Quote

Another example from my personal experience coming back to the game and playing a new character: having to grind out hero points and piece together gear with the help of a wiki as to where to get it to be able to start having fun doing a build I wanted to do. This game is actually even more grindy than some when it comes to builds, in particular. They may not make you continue on a gear treadmill after you've earned stuff, but if you want to use a new elite specialization, you have to unlock it. If you want a gearset with slightly different stats (of which there are tons of stat combinations) you have to go grind it out.

True, yet for none of those are you limited to grind the same enemy over and over or required to play 1 type of content. 

 

Masteries indeed are a step away from the original manifesto. I never claimed that there was no alterations to it in all content. What I said was:"players often refer to the original manifesto for things it does not apply to." This abolutely applies to fishing or this thread.

 

Masteries and progression absolutely break with the original idea. Gear and stat combinations do to some extent, but are often made available via many means to compensate (which does not in fact negate the break with the oroginal idea, just soften the blow).

Quote

I haven't touched the build or gear for the character I mentioned since I got it set up with the right gear. The prospect of creating another build is daunting. I have to acquire an entirely other set of gear and I don't even have all my elite specializations unlocked yet, so I can't just play around with them.

 

and even here, the developers are trying to mitigate this to as big an extent as possible:

- easy access to ascended trinkets (comparatively to other MMOs)

- reforging/stat changing of ascended gear

- easy access to exotic gear

 

Sometimes I wonder if players complaining about the gear acquisition in this game have ever actually played other MMORPGs. The complaints are hilarious and sad.

 

Again, the "no grind" in theboriginal manifesto is far to often used by players in the context of:"I want this for less work, you promised", which was never the intent or design.

I am going to repeat:"No grind" was NEVER a core value of the game or even franchise. GW1 before GW2 was insanely grindy, for anything past simple gear acquisition and players were fine with it. GW2 continued this approach.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Labjax.2465]

No way I'm going to try to quote that response. Too messy. Yes, I've played other MMOs, which is part of why I'm baffled about your position on this. GW2 is absolutely grindy and in some ways, more grindy than other MMOs. It wasn't always that way, but it became more that way over time.

Yes, it's plausible they failed their manifesto from day one. This is not the rebuttal you think it is. Marketing is known to lie or exaggerate or just aim for something and miss the mark. People call them out on it when the game gets particularly grindy, which is fair. It's reasonable to hold marketing to what it said back then and criticize them for going so far afield of what they supposedly intended.

The fact that you even use the phrasing "wanting it for less work" in criticizing the critics of this game's design makes me laugh. This is a game. I don't understand why MMOs tend to attract people who act like MMOs are supposed to feel like work. It's not an uncommon mindset in MMOs, but to see it in an MMO that marketed it itself on leaving that mindset behind is strange to say the least. Especially when the person is saying it while claiming that was never this MMO's intention. Just bizarre. This is not a contestable point. The manifesto is not ambiguous.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

No way I'm going to try to quote that response. Too messy. Yes, I've played other MMOs, which is part of why I'm baffled about your position on this. GW2 is absolutely grindy and in some ways, more grindy than other MMOs. It wasn't always that way, but it became more that way over time.

Yes, it's plausible they failed their manifesto from day one. This is not the rebuttal you think it is. Marketing is known to lie or exaggerate or just aim for something and miss the mark.

Very well possible. Then the expectation going into this though is flawed.

If the manifesto was never adhered to, then suddenly expecting the developers to do so 10 years in seems unreasonable. 

Quote

People call them out on it when the game gets particularly grindy, which is fair. It's reasonable to hold marketing to what it said back then and criticize them for going so far afield of what they supposedly intended.

Sure, but at some point players would have noticed or learned to expect how the game is developed.

10 years of similar development is a strong indocator of future development and development approaches. No matter what marketing said or promised.

Quote

The fact that you even use the phrasing "wanting it for less work" in criticizing the critics of this game's design makes me laugh. This is a game. I don't understand why MMOs tend to attract people who act like MMOs are supposed to feel like work. It's not an uncommon mindset in MMOs, but to see it in an MMO that marketed it itself on leaving that mindset behind is strange to say the least.

Almost as though players come to expect something from a shooter or a racing game or a single player game.

MMOs are in general designed to hold players attention over VERY long periods of time, unlike a lot of other games. With that philosophy come certain corner stones of development.

Quote

Especially when the person is saying it while claiming that was never this MMO's intention. Just bizarre. This is not a contestable point. The manifesto is not ambiguous.

 

Yes, the manifesto is not ambiguous, yet so many seem to misunderstand it to this day.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Harrada.8041 said:

"We just don't want players to grind in GW2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun."
A direct quote from their release manifesto. And thats not a misunderstanding or taken out of context. He is literally talking about doing the same boring action over and over and over, as he makes clear with the sentence that this one follows. That's exactly what farming for mackerel is.

It is a direct quote.  But the line before it is "I swung a sword, I swung it again, looking I swung it again".  He was talking about combat. You're taking a quote out of context.

In the old days, in many games, you had to level by killing stuff over and over again.  In Aion they didn't give you enough XP to get to level 25 through questing. Instead you had to kill the same three bosses over again. That was grinding.  It's a repeat of the same thing over again, usually to level. 

Anet has always said there would be things to grind for, but there would be no required grinding.  There have been things to grind for since day one in this game (if you don't believe me, you should have tried to get the giant slayer achievement).  Tell me what do you need to get to play that you can't get?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

6 hours ago, Harrada.8041 said:

"We just don't want players to grind in GW2. No one enjoys that, no one finds it fun."
A direct quote from their release manifesto. And thats not a misunderstanding or taken out of context. He is literally talking about doing the same boring action over and over and over, as he makes clear with the sentence that this one follows. That's exactly what farming for mackerel is.

Why did you cut off the last part of the quote, which explains what grind they were referring to?

"When you look at the art in our game, you say 'Wow, that's visually stunning. I've never seen anything like that before,' and then when you play the combat in our game, you say 'Wow, that's incredible. I've never seen anything like that.' In most games, you go out, and you have really fun tasks, occasionally, that you get to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff. 'I swung a sword. I swung a sword again. Hey! I swung it again.' That's great. We just don't want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun. We want to change the way that people view combat."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet's_MMO_Manifesto_trailer

 

[SatyricL.2784]

1 hour ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Why did you cut off the last part of the quote, which explains what grind they were referring to?

Same reason I cut off what was before that, which even further supports my statement. Because poster stated no grind was never part of their original selling point of the game. The only relevant part for that argument is literally the part that says "WE DONT WANT PLAYERS TO GRIND IN GW2."

You don't get to make a completely incorrect statement and then try to move the goal post in order to avoid owning up to your incorrect statement. Thats exactly what they did. It was pretty clear to anyone watching that at the time and even now, that Colin Johanson was talking about the game removing tedious repetitive grinding from gameplay in general. And thats exactly what the core game did. If they were talking about just combat, the statement would have been "grinding is not boring because our combat is fun". They specifically talk about the tasks you are doing are sometimes fun and sometimes a grind. Ergo heartquests, at the time. Ergo not just combat just because he said the word combat at the end of his final sentence.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Harrada.8041

[SatyricL.2784]

3 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It is a direct quote.  But the line before it is "I swung a sword, I swung it again, looking I swung it again".  He was talking about combat. You're taking a quote out of context.

And the line before that is "you'll occasionally have these really fun tasks to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff." So no. You're narrowing the scope to interpret a specific context when he is clearly talking about things such as heart quest here too. AKA general game content that includes quests, events, AND combat. I stated the only relevant part to the posters incorrect statement.
 

Quote

Anet has always said there would be things to grind for, but there would be no required grinding.  There have been things to grind for since day one in this game (if you don't believe me, you should have tried to get the giant slayer achievement).  Tell me what do you need to get to play that you can't get?

You are also ignoring the fact that every "grind" in GW2 has been a set amount of effort in return for that reward. Slayer, kill exactly 1000 of a specific enemy. Legendary gear, complete specific set tasks collect specific items that can be earned directly or purchased with gold to guarantee a legendary via crafting. Every "grind" in GW2 from day one has been about putting in the work and being fairly compensated for that specific amount of work. It's never been about absolute RNG. And don't get me wrong. A little bit of RNG (the way you fish and get random ones for the collection) is totally fine. What isn't fine is having that collection locked behind the RNG of a type of bait that can only me reasonably farmed in a 10 minute window every 2 hours.

There is no EARNING mackerel. Only rolling for it and hoping for the best, an issue that's further compounded by the restrictions upon increasing its RNG (fishing open waters at dawn/dusk). Despite there being perfect opportunities to make it more accessible via fishing event rewards, and still maintain its exclusivity over other baits.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Harrada.8041

[Freya.9075]

Ppl thought fish eggs were limited to fishing too but someone found them in a shop. Give it some time. Maybe mackerel is available somewhere as well. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Freya.9075

[Einsof.1457]

No one at arenanet ever said that they were eliminating doing content more than once (what you call a "grind"). So...okay?

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Harrada.8041 said:

And the line before that is "you'll occasionally have these really fun tasks to do, and the rest of the game is this boring grind to get to the fun stuff." So no. You're narrowing the scope to interpret a specific context when he is clearly talking about things such as heart quest here too. AKA general game content that includes quests, events, AND combat. I stated the only relevant part to the posters incorrect statement.
 

You are also ignoring the fact that every "grind" in GW2 has been a set amount of effort in return for that reward. Slayer, kill exactly 1000 of a specific enemy. Legendary gear, complete specific set tasks collect specific items that can be earned directly or purchased with gold to guarantee a legendary via crafting. Every "grind" in GW2 from day one has been about putting in the work and being fairly compensated for that specific amount of work. It's never been about absolute RNG. And don't get me wrong. A little bit of RNG (the way you fish and get random ones for the collection) is totally fine. What isn't fine is having that collection locked behind the RNG of a type of bait that can only me reasonably farmed in a 10 minute window every 2 hours.

There is no EARNING mackerel. Only rolling for it and hoping for the best, an issue that's further compounded by the restrictions upon increasing its RNG (fishing open waters at dawn/dusk). Despite there being perfect opportunities to make it more accessible via fishing event rewards, and still maintain its exclusivity over other baits.

So far I haven't needed a mackeral to accomplish anything.

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

So far I haven't needed a mackeral to accomplish anything.

There are fish in the collection achievements that say the need mackerel as bait.

[Vayne.8563]

44 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

There are fish in the collection achievements that say the need mackerel as bait.

Sure, and the giant slayer achievement took forever back when the game launched. If you don't get those collections what are you missing out on? We've always had grindy achievements that was my point. If you're going to achievement hunt, as I do, there are going to be achievements that are a huge time sink.  My wife just got her 43k chest and I'm not far behind her.  I've been doing grindy achievements since launch.  It's a bit late to complain about them, unless there's something special we need those achievements for.

[LadyHawk.5319]

MMO's have a grind aspect. All of them do, including GW2. But, what makes a really good MMO is how they disguise the grind. Does the game make you grind in such a way that you think you are playing for fun and it's your idea? Guild Wars 2 used to be this way; they accomplished that. I used to brag on GW2 with regards to the grind aspect. It was cleverly done. Yes, there were a few dailies and do some achieves here and there, but it never felt grindy. They cleverly masked that and tricked you into thinking that you were completing that content because you wanted to. 

Notice, I have been talking in the past tense. I am sad to say that the cleverly hidden grind is gone and has been since at least Ice Brood Saga. Now it is blatant, in your face, do this strike mission 50 kittening times for an achieve. There is nothing clever about it. There is nothing unique about it. The people who brought us that cleverness, I guess, are gone. It is sad. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by LadyHawk.5319

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Sure, and the giant slayer achievement took forever back when the game launched. If you don't get those collections what are you missing out on? We've always had grindy achievements that was my point. If you're going to achievement hunt, as I do, there are going to be achievements that are a huge time sink.  My wife just got her 43k chest and I'm not far behind her.  I've been doing grindy achievements since launch.  It's a bit late to complain about them, unless there's something special we need those achievements for.

Ah, I read your statement as not being aware that they were necessary for the achievements. I understand what you were intending, now.