Virtuoso fills a niche that Mesmer was lacking

[Salt Mode.3780]

6 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Another day and another mesmer forum thread that goes round and round in circles. Why even post here if you have nothing positive to say. I don't go and posts where people complain only to try and tell them they are wrong. 

Just let people play Virtuoso, it isn't going to change drastically any more. If people can find a niche for it let them. If you don't like Virtuoso wait for the next expansion in 2 years.

There is already too many misinformation given to non-mesmer mains that decided to jump the bandwagon because Virtuoso has shiny floaty things.

Unlike most people who play for the aesthetics I'm actively trying to fight for actual changes. People like urself who constantly contradicts urself, one min Virtuoso is good next min you find urself swapping to chrono or ranger. One min Virtuoso is good in pvp next min you say you dont even play mesmer in pvp and you main ranger.

[Mell.4873]

@Oak.2047don't listen to half your replies since they don't play Virtuoso or want to try make it work (daddy. 8125 isn't so bad) 

As a Mesmer main I definitely stuggled to find the proper use for it to start with. I for one played mirage in fractals and can pull similar numbers to pre-nerf Scourge. For open world I had mastered a brutal effective chrono tank/dps so I had more reason not to play it which I did state a few weeks back. 

My entire view has flipped basically aligning with your opinion which is the aoe for Virtuoso is amazing. Its so crazy op that you can run condition Virt and 80% of your damage comes from it's base trait line alone. This is so powerful, this means you can run Inspiration or Illusion shatter buff grandmaster. I mean even the snow crow condi build runs traits just to buff phantasms by a small margin. 

[Mell.4873]

7 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

Why even post if all YOU'RE doing is stifling real constructive criticism?

Your just here to argue with the nice OP, rather than adding or offering your own view. I mean salt went on a huge side rant, no offence to salt though. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Mell.4873yes because people should def listen to you, shall I compile a history of your post on how you actively contradict urself? Its not hard. FYI I've been playing Virtuoso actively for the past 2 weeks and I'm wonder why the hell would I go Virtuoso when Mirage gets things done faster.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

11 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

There is already too many misinformation given to non-mesmer mains that decided to jump the bandwagon because Virtuoso has shiny floaty things.

Unlike most people who play for the aesthetics I'm actively trying to fight for actual changes. People like urself who constantly contradicts urself, one min Virtuoso is good next min you find urself swapping to chrono or ranger. One min Virtuoso is good in pvp next min you say you dont even play mesmer in pvp and you main ranger.

I see the constant contradicting myself point as I'm honestly here to talk about Mesmer rather than push an agenda. I love Mesmer and like to play all its elites so I try and make Virtuoso work. 

Why must I only play Mesmer in all game modes as well? I loved ranger well before Mesmer so I take comfort that it's my go to PvP class. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Mell.4873

[mortrialus.3062]

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Your just here to argue with the nice OP, rather than adding or offering your own view. I mean salt went on a huge side rant, no offence to salt though. 

I can dump my list of things virtuoso needs to be competitively viable if you want.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Mell.4873 said:

I see the constant contradicting myself point as I'm honestly here to talk about Mesmer rather than push an agenda. I love Mesmer and like to play all its elites so I try and make Virtuoso work. 

Why must I only play Mesmer in all game modes as well? I loved ranger well before Mesmer so I take comfort that it's my go to PvP class. 

Ok so that being said most of the complaints of Virtuoso has never been about PvE it has always been about competitive game modes. PvE is not an indication of a class being good, for example look at the cata nerfs, they got nerfed because of golem benchmark, are they good in PvE? or what about PvP?

Posts like this are pretty much blatant lies, again ill say PvE should never be an indication of a successful E-Spec because PvE balance is irrelevant and its much easier, PvE isnt dying or bleed out its sPvP and WvW. Unless GW2 announces they are going to be strictly PvE then I have nothing to say, but time and time again they keep saying WvW is the cornerstone of the game.

[Mell.4873]

Just now, mortrialus.3062 said:

I can dump my list of things virtuoso needs to be competitively viable if you want.

Well that would be more constructive, I mean I want some fixes too, some salt agrees with too (if my memory serves me right) like removing phantasms entirely and having all buffs apply to mesmer alone. 

[Mell.4873]

4 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Ok so that being said most of the complaints of Virtuoso has never been about PvE it has always been about competitive game modes. PvE is not an indication of a class being good, for example look at the cata nerfs, they got nerfed because of golem benchmark, are they good in PvE? or what about PvP?

Posts like this are pretty much blatant lies, again ill say PvE should never be an indication of a successful E-Spec because PvE balance is irrelevant and its much easier, PvE isnt dying or bleed out its sPvP and WvW. Unless GW2 announces they are going to be strictly PvE then I have nothing to say, but time and time again they keep saying WvW is the cornerstone of the game.

I guess but most of the content they add is pve, I mean this expansion added 0 to sPvP or WvW unlike the last one. 

If you want anymore proof this is primarily a PvE game I don't know if you can find a better one. Meh it's not like I can convince you. 

Ps. Sorry I kind of derailed this thread even more with Mesmer forum drama

Edited March 25, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Salt Mode.3780]

4 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I guess but most of the content they add is pve, I mean this expansion added 0 to sPvP or WvW unlike the last one. 

If you want anymore proof this is primarily a PvE game I don't know if you can find a better one. Meh it's not like I can convince you. 

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Read and do some research before making remarks I've said this to you time and time again, you want people to take you seriously then maybe do more reading.

FYI the world of PvE is also in uproar primarily because of the Meta event that was introduced and strike missions so your world ain't doing too hot either. Nor did the new e-specs change much of the meta. 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Read and do some research before making remarks I've said this to you time and time again, you want people to take you seriously then maybe do more reading.

FYI the world of PvE is also in uproar primarily because of the Meta event that was introduced and strike missions so your world ain't doing too hot either. Nor did the new e-specs change much of the meta. 

Wasn't the main uproar about the meta events was that they were to hard doesn't that go again your narrative. 

I do know they plan on doing some PvP but we don't really know when, like the guild vs guild WvW

[Oak.2047]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/arenanet-studio-update-the-future-of-guild-wars-2/

Read and do some research before making remarks I've said this to you time and time again, you want people to take you seriously then maybe do more reading.

FYI the world of PvE is also in uproar primarily because of the Meta event that was introduced and strike missions so your world ain't doing too hot either. Nor did the new e-specs change much of the meta. 

 

You're the one spouting constant misinformation.

As someone who actively raids, i can say it DID change the meta. The meta is boons, not classes, never was classes in anything BUT the top 1% statics that pushed for PB times in raids.
OFC people stick to their kitted out mains for now, but if you actually WOULD play raids and fractals on a semi high level, you'd know that 2 Healmechas are the goto rn over druid and HFB, that people bring Specters as much as they bring Alacrens and that qFBs are interchangeable with qHarbis. DMG on the new speccs is good too so they can come and voilá, you have a slight meta shift, even if it just means options.

And the people that actually uproar over the PvE content are just as toxic as you.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

The options for lower-maintenance DPS builds and the "spec-for-players-who-don't-like-mesmer" have been mentioned, but there's a third one I discovered, and that is the nigh immortal playstyle.  Basically, take the condition build from snowcrows (I'm using the budget build that's mostly rampager), however instead of unloading all of your phantasms with Signet of the Ether you never activate the heal skill.  Ether's passive heal is 350 per illusion, which activates every time a blade is stocked.  If an enemy is being hit by Thousand Cuts + Rain of Swords + Dagger skills, condi vert will stack a full 5 blades every second, coming to 1,750 health per second.  The additional healing from Jagged Mind also helps.  Using this tactic I solo'd all three champions in the Zen Daijun maze with little trouble.

This is nice, because one of the bizarre problems I've had with other mesmer specs is survival.  Chrono and Mirage both use their heal skills for their DPS rotation.  In prolonged engagements, this leaves me quite frail with no sustain outside of regeneration.  The Chronoburst rotation kills most things, but anything that could survive would give me trouble.  Condi-Virt solves this problem.

[Salt Mode.3780]

2 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

You're the one spouting constant misinformation.

As someone who actively raids, i can say it DID change the meta. The meta is boons, not classes, never was classes in anything BUT the top 1% statics that pushed for PB times in raids.
OFC people stick to their kitted out mains for now, but if you actually WOULD play raids and fractals on a semi high level, you'd know that 2 Healmechas are the goto rn over druid and HFB, that people bring Specters as much as they bring Alacrens and that qFBs are interchangeable with qHarbis. DMG on the new speccs is good too so they can come and voilá, you have a slight meta shift, even if it just means options.

And the people that actually uproar over the PvE content are just as toxic as you.

Sorry its not called being toxic its called tired of randoms coming in chiming on things they dont understand, as for as PvE goes there is no excuses for you guys to have an uproar considering things r always updating for you, us PvPers/WvWers dont get the luxury so yea there is no sympathy for PvErs. Its like children complaining for more when they have it all, its actually cringe to see casuals being even more so with the justification of Virtuoso being great cuz it literally requires little to no rotation.

Mind numbing comps that can skip mechanics. Sure thats healthy for the game, and thats why the quality of the playerbase is going downhill.

[Oak.2047]

Just now, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry its not called being toxic its called tired of randoms coming in chiming on things they dont understand, as for as PvE goes there is no excuses for you guys to have an uproar considering things r always updating for you, us PvPers/WvWers dont get the luxury so yea there is no sympathy for PvErs. Its like children complaining for more when they have it all, its actually cringe to see casuals being even more so with the justification of Virtuoso being great cuz it literally requires little to no rotation.

Mind numbing comps that can skip mechanics. Sure thats healthy for the game, and thats why the quality of the playerbase is going downhill.

 

Again with the BS. If you think these comps skip mechanics then join a W1 training raid, as i'm sure as a PvP/WvW player you'll have NO problems doing it.. lol. You'll wake up.

 

But i do for once agree with you. PvE players have nothing to complain about. But now i know where your bitternis comes from. It#s okay to feel like your preferred way of playing as been abandoned by Anet, just don't let it out on other players.

 

I have been playing mesmer back in Core all the way through to now. I've been playing mesmer when the only merit to bring it was bringing the reflect dome because the reflected damage would scale off of the enemies power, so you'd bring assassins gear and make it crit hugely. I've been playing mesmer when the damage rotation of it was to dump 3 Pistol phantasms into one spot and then auto attacking on sword, occasionally using 2. I sat through chrono jail. So, i'm not "chiming in on things i don't understand". You, sir, just have a very narrow vision of the game.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 minutes ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

Again with the BS. If you think these comps skip mechanics then join a W1 training raid, as i'm sure as a PvP/WvW player you'll have NO problems doing it.. lol. You'll wake up.

 

But i do for once agree with you. PvE players have nothing to complain about. But now i know where your bitternis comes from. It#s okay to feel like your preferred way of playing as been abandoned by Anet, just don't let it out on other players.

 

I have been playing mesmer back in Core all the way through to now. I've been playing mesmer when the only merit to bring it was bringing the reflect dome because the reflected damage would scale off of the enemies power, so you'd bring assassins gear and make it crit hugely. I've been playing mesmer when the damage rotation of it was to dump 3 Pistol phantasms into one spot and then auto attacking on sword, occasionally using 2. I sat through chrono jail. So, i'm not "chiming in on things i don't understand". You, sir, just have a very narrow vision of the game.

Sorry not as narrow as the skills Virtuoso has to offer. If truly you main mesmer back in core days then you should know how many builds were completely removed from the game. 

You should know how many things were taken away from us and given to other classes. Many years we waited and Virtuoso was the best thing they have to offer? The worst part ISN'T the class but the fact that there are still persisting issues from the first beta till now. WHY? Cuz reddit is full of "positivity" towards Virtuoso and threads like this that spread this false positivity.

As far as PvE goes it really doesn't matter how the classes go, at the end of the day find a guild that you can do raids with a static of some sort and you can play whatever you want, but its completely different in sPvP and WvW, when you class isn't even getting any representation in Tournies. 

AGAIN Virtuoso isn't filling in ANY niche role in replying to ur thread. You still haven't answered what role it fills because at the end of the day if Virtuoso was removed from the game IT WOULD NOT IMPACT THE META.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Oak.2047]

2 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry not as narrow as the skills Virtuoso has to offer. If truly you main mesmer back in core days then you should know how many builds were completely removed from the game. 

You should know how many things were taken away from us and given to other classes. Many years we waited and Virtuoso was the best thing they have to offer? The worst part ISN'T the class but the fact that there are still persisting issues from the first beta till now. WHY? Cuz reddit is full of "positivity" towards Virtuoso and threads like this that spread this false positivity.

As far as PvE goes it really doesn't matter how the classes go, at the end of the day find a guild that you can do raids with a static of some sort and you can play whatever you want, but its completely different in sPvP and WvW, when you class isn't even getting any representation in Tournies. 

AGAIN Virtuoso isn't filling in ANY niche role in replying to ur thread. You still haven't answered what role it fills because at the end of the day if Virtuoso was removed from the game IT WOULD NOT IMPACT THE META.

 

If Virtuoso got removed from the game it would remove the only viable mesmer game from the Fractal meta. Discretize did not feature a single Mesmer build for the last couple of months. The last one being Power Chrono, already described as being bad, being removed a long while ago.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just now, Oak.2047 said:

 

If Virtuoso got removed from the game it would remove the only viable mesmer game from the Fractal meta. Discretize did not feature a single Mesmer build for the last couple of months. The last one being Power Chrono, already described as being bad, being removed a long while ago.

Again there is a difference between Speed run, Fast run, and to clear content. Both Mirage and Chrono can clear content, it may not be "speed running" or it might be a slower run, but I can def say I can bring Mirage and or Chrono to clear the content that's just fact.

People are under the assumption that a class is not playable because it cannot clear content fast enough but that isn't true. NOT being able to clear content is the real determination that the class is completely not viable. 

Fractals is not a good indication of a "niche" role for Mesmers, players are spoiled with having faster clears, as you should know in core days how long it took to clear fractals normal before HoT dropped or even normal dungeons like AC or ARAH.

[Oak.2047]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again there is a difference between Speed run, Fast run, and to clear content. Both Mirage and Chrono can clear content, it may not be "speed running" or it might be a slower run, but I can def say I can bring Mirage and or Chrono to clear the content that's just fact.

People are under the assumption that a class is not playable because it cannot clear content fast enough but that isn't true. NOT being able to clear content is the real determination that the class is completely not viable. 

Fractals is not a good indication of a "niche" role for Mesmers, players are spoiled with having faster clears, as you should know in core days how long it took to clear fractals normal before HoT dropped or even normal dungeons like AC or ARAH.

 

Power creep is a thing, yes. But the fractal System was also different. Ofc it took longer, since you had to do 4 fractals in a row. i'm all for just clearing the content, as i usually enter T4s with a healmech and heal my friends who all do sup 10k dps, but it's still a thing that something gets frowned upon if it's not meta.

Also it just doesn't feel good if everything just falls over and you've done 8k dps Bc you didn't have a chance to ramp up your damage yet. It's a nice thing having the OPTION to say "no i wanna do the burst", and then you actually CAN.

Mesmer should get an option for PvP, i agree with that. It blows my mind that they ruined Mirage for it as they did, but it doesn't mean Virtuoso is bad for the class or game in general. And it does not matter how negative you are about it, Anet won't hear you, you'll just impact other players days.

[Salt Mode.3780]

1 minute ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

Power creep is a thing, yes. But the fractal System was also different. Ofc it took longer, since you had to do 4 fractals in a row. i'm all for just clearing the content, as i usually enter T4s with a healmech and heal my friends who all do sup 10k dps, but it's still a thing that something gets frowned upon if it's not meta.

Also it just doesn't feel good if everything just falls over and you've done 8k dps Bc you didn't have a chance to ramp up your damage yet. It's a nice thing having the OPTION to say "no i wanna do the burst", and then you actually CAN.

Mesmer should get an option for PvP, i agree with that. It blows my mind that they ruined Mirage for it as they did, but it doesn't mean Virtuoso is bad for the class or game in general. And it does not matter how negative you are about it, Anet won't hear you, you'll just impact other players days.

Most of my post I've made it clear that it has been strictly PvP/Competitive mode, what I do hope players who decide to bring positivity to the class is be more specific where its good at. 

I've been playing virtuoso for the past 2 weeks and there are aspects of it I do enjoy but its too hard to ignore the bad things about it.

I guess many of the Mesmer mains are just tired of people bandwagon because Virtuoso looks pretty and or even funnier comments are "it doesn't feel like a Mesmer class". Those are comments that pisses a Mesmer main both PvE and competitive players.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

I wanna see a Salt Mode Mirage vs a Mell Virtuoso in AB or WvW map. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

39 minutes ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

I wanna see a Salt Mode Mirage vs a Mell Virtuoso in AB or WvW map. 

I would love to arrange something like that as well.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The options for lower-maintenance DPS builds and the "spec-for-players-who-don't-like-mesmer" have been mentioned, but there's a third one I discovered, and that is the nigh immortal playstyle.  Basically, take the condition build from snowcrows (I'm using the budget build that's mostly rampager), however instead of unloading all of your phantasms with Signet of the Ether you never activate the heal skill.  Ether's passive heal is 350 per illusion, which activates every time a blade is stocked.  If an enemy is being hit by Thousand Cuts + Rain of Swords + Dagger skills, condi vert will stack a full 5 blades every second, coming to 1,750 health per second.  The additional healing from Jagged Mind also helps.  Using this tactic I solo'd all three champions in the Zen Daijun maze with little trouble.

This is nice, because one of the bizarre problems I've had with other mesmer specs is survival.  Chrono and Mirage both use their heal skills for their DPS rotation.  In prolonged engagements, this leaves me quite frail with no sustain outside of regeneration.  The Chronoburst rotation kills most things, but anything that could survive would give me trouble.  Condi-Virt solves this problem.

Yes exactly and you pair it with the inspiration line you got from nothing to full in as fast as 5 seconds without touching your heal skill. 

[Urphen.2857]

2 hours ago, Oak.2047 said:

 

Power creep is a thing, yes. But the fractal System was also different. Ofc it took longer, since you had to do 4 fractals in a row. i'm all for just clearing the content, as i usually enter T4s with a healmech and heal my friends who all do sup 10k dps, but it's still a thing that something gets frowned upon if it's not meta.

Also it just doesn't feel good if everything just falls over and you've done 8k dps Bc you didn't have a chance to ramp up your damage yet. It's a nice thing having the OPTION to say "no i wanna do the burst", and then you actually CAN.

Mesmer should get an option for PvP, i agree with that. It blows my mind that they ruined Mirage for it as they did, but it doesn't mean Virtuoso is bad for the class or game in general. And it does not matter how negative you are about it, Anet won't hear you, you'll just impact other players days.

Serious question, are you OK with that?

As a Mesmer main? It's a long time the only good thing about mesmer was its Raid viability, yes now Virtuoso added better fractals potential but to be real chrono was still viable there even if it wasn't the best option, but for pvp and wvw? We have nothing, a few meme roaming Builds if you are rly good but that's all.

So are you OK with it that we got again nothing but a spec for 1-2 game modes while classes like engi now can play every mode and not only this but they can be every role in game, they have for all things a spec/build and we aren't allowed to give negative feedback instead we should shut up and be lucky with what we got?

It's not that we want to hate virtu, we only want that it gets the same potential like other classes and I can't understand why there so many against it, you all realise virtu would get better and not worse?

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, Sleepwalker.1398 said:

I wanna see a Salt Mode Mirage vs a Mell Virtuoso in AB or WvW map. 

I don't PvP with Mesmer but I could duel him with my Mirage or Ranger.