If Untamed is to fill a boonrip role in WvW, why does it not have a proper trait for it?

[Grand Marshal.4098]

I'd love to have an option in the traitline to do the very basic thing a strip build with CC needs to do. 

Crowd Control Skills Remove Boons

Maybe it has been discussed before, sorry if I didn't notice, but I think that making this a trait instead of inflicting Blind on Unleashed Pet skill 1 would work wonders for a CC boonrip Untamed build and the meta requires another boonrip class right now, as well as more variety (Druid and Tempest right now contending for Scrapper's spot is great, although Scrapper needs to be looked at and it's role). 

 

Ideas?

[Beddo.1907]

21 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I'd love to have an option in the traitline to do the very basic thing a strip build with CC needs to do. 

Crowd Control Skills Remove Boons

Maybe it has been discussed before, sorry if I didn't notice, but I think that making this a trait instead of inflicting Blind on Unleashed Pet skill 1 would work wonders for a CC boonrip Untamed build and the meta requires another boonrip class right now, as well as more variety (Druid and Tempest right now contending for Scrapper's spot is great, although Scrapper needs to be looked at and it's role). 

 

Ideas?

The thing is, Untamed (or ranger as a whole) doesn't have good range attacks that could even be used as a base for a boon strip.
Also the pet can't do that role currently due to just dying, which means the strip is limited to once per fight.

The current champion of boon strip (Scourge) uses 10 boon strips/corrupts(2 single target, 3 range AoE and 5 AoE), while also providing stuff like barrier and condi cleanse and applying a lot of self boons(FfC).
To get a chance to compete we need at least another 2 range AoE and 4 AoE on ~25s CD, boon strip synergy traits(not just enabling traits) and anything to do while on CD, but that's only if other ranger issues are fixed.

As for some basic ideas to at least start:
-fix pets issues, so they don't die while in the enemy zerg(kinda a stretch) and don't mess up stealth.
-Corrupting Vines change to apply boon strip to f1 and f3 
-Blinding Outburst removed and changed into something to improve unleashed f1-3 uptime.
-Add long range AoE to Hammer and change one of the 3rd line traits to add strip to hammer.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

23 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

The thing is, Untamed (or ranger as a whole) doesn't have good range attacks that could even be used as a base for a boon strip.
Also the pet can't do that role currently due to just dying, which means the strip is limited to once per fight.

The current champion of boon strip (Scourge) uses 10 boon strips/corrupts(2 single target, 3 range AoE and 5 AoE), while also providing stuff like barrier and condi cleanse and applying a lot of self boons(FfC).
To get a chance to compete we need at least another 2 range AoE and 4 AoE on ~25s CD, boon strip synergy traits(not just enabling traits) and anything to do while on CD, but that's only if other ranger issues are fixed.

As for some basic ideas to at least start:
-fix pets issues, so they don't die while in the enemy zerg(kinda a stretch) and don't mess up stealth.
-Corrupting Vines change to apply boon strip to f1 and f3 
-Blinding Outburst removed and changed into something to improve unleashed f1-3 uptime.
-Add long range AoE to Hammer and change one of the 3rd line traits to add strip to hammer.

I don't think range is the issue. Just making Hammer/GS strip on baseline CCs will go a long way in improving strips. 

Maybe the spores instead of being a knockdown can become similar to Break Enchantments on SpB and strip boons rather than CC, unblockably so.

I find the issue being the lack of a trait to help with constant strips.. Untamed seems very much so, as you said, a role where you burst strip some boons and do your damage. But I don't get the idea there tbh. Up it's strips to meaningfully compete. Scourge def peak option o corrupts, but Warrior and Chrono can outstrip if played melee (chrono has better range from scourge too).

[Beddo.1907]

6 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I don't think range is the issue. Just making Hammer/GS strip on baseline CCs will go a long way in improving strips. 

Maybe the spores instead of being a knockdown can become similar to Break Enchantments on SpB and strip boons rather than CC, unblockably so.

I find the issue being the lack of a trait to help with constant strips.. Untamed seems very much so, as you said, a role where you burst strip some boons and do your damage. But I don't get the idea there tbh. Up it's strips to meaningfully compete. Scourge def peak option o corrupts, but Warrior and Chrono can outstrip if played melee (chrono has better range from scourge too).

Range is required for 900 range bombs and it's a huge difference in competing for strip role considering that Scourge has it.

Other classes have some strips and can use them to help, but they are nowhere near to Scourge.

[tykel.6073]

Well you can use the bears for their invuln to keep them alive for a bit to use the projectile block bubble and boon strip skills maybe more than once with the cd refreshes untamed has. Honestly though if they just gave the pets damage reduction that kicks in once 5 or so enemies are within a decent radius of them that scales up higher as even more come in then I think it would go a long way towards having untamed work better in zergs (and Druid as well). The main thing that keeps one alive during a bomb/spike from the enemy is dodge and block/invuln timing but pets can’t dodge or walk around bombs so damage reduction is the next best option imo.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Would add it to Corrupting Vines as do not want the blind trait messed with, it's too important for sPvP and smallscale.  

Basically, instead of Unleashed Ambush skills removing boons, it would be CC skills remove boons.  To compete with scourge it could be 2 boons per CC as we have plenty of pets with multiple CC skills as well as the ones on Ranger weapons.

[Zyreva.1078]

Boon rip on cc does not work against stab and therefore is useless against any somewhat organised grp (and even in certain 1vs1). Otherwise absorbtion sigil would do the job just fine. Also pet skills typically do not trigger any traits (unless the trait is pet only).

[Grand Marshal.4098]

9 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Boon rip on cc does not work against stab and therefore is useless against any somewhat organised grp (and even in certain 1vs1). Otherwise absorbtion sigil would do the job just fine. Also pet skills typically do not trigger any traits (unless the trait is pet only).

I mean Spellbreaker is definitely better with Dispelling Force than without. Same for Chrono. It's essential for these 2 builds.

[Zyreva.1078]

51 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I mean Spellbreaker is definitely better with Dispelling Force than without. Same for Chrono. It's essential for these 2 builds.

Both have other - better - boon rip options on top tho to deal with stab. They also have better aoe cc than untamed. Untamed's aoe boon rip and ccs mostly have a very tiny radius (180), long cd and/or cast times, melee range, and it's all blockable. Adding boon rip on cc wouldn't fix any of those issues and would not let untamed compete with spb or chrono for a boon strip role.

They need to improve/rework existing options for Untamed as well as make pets functional, not copy some random trait from other classes. That's just lazy and wouldn't fix the underlying problems.

Edited October 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Grand Marshal.4098]

3 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Both have other - better - boon rip options on top tho to deal with stab. They also have better aoe cc than untamed. Untamed's aoe boon rip and ccs mostly have a very tiny radius (180), long cd and/or cast times, melee range, and it's all blockable. Adding boon rip on cc wouldn't fix any of those issues and would not let untamed compete with spb or chrono for a boon strip role.

They need to improve/rework existing options for Untamed as well as make pets functional, not copy some random trait from other classes. That's just lazy and wouldn't fix the underlying problems.

So what do you suggest? I'm definitely into ranger getting some Largescale roles. How would Untamed with it's current form become better in a boonrip role without just a trait change (CC strip would not change much, but would def be better than not having it). 

[Zyreva.1078]

3 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

So what do you suggest?

Adressing the reasons why it is bad in WvW.

3 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

How would Untamed with it's current form become better in a boonrip role

It won't. Not in it's current state. Adding some bandaid copy trait isn't going to change that. So maybe we shouldn't ask for that kind of useless stuff, because the devs don't have a habit of adressing stuff once they have already changed something,  whether the change they made worked out well or not.

Edited October 7, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Adressing the reasons why it is bad in WvW.

It won't. Not in it's current state. Adding some bandaid copy trait isn't going to change that. So maybe we shouldn't ask for that kind of useless stuff, because the devs don't have a habit of adressing stuff once they have already changed something,  whether the change they made worked out well or not.

What I am asking you is what is your perception of Untamed's role. Since the "bandaid" won't fix it, what could? what should it do to compete? What aspect of it could be augmented?

[Zyreva.1078]

14 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

What I am asking you is what is your perception of Untamed's role. Since the "bandaid" won't fix it, what could? what should it do to compete? What aspect of it could be augmented?

Oh i'd love if it would actually be good at stripping boons (and providing aoe dmg/cc - you know, that stuff they talked about when they advertised the spec). And the main thing they'd have to do is make pets useable - it is a pet centric spec, it can't work without. Then increase the radius on hammer and unleashed pet F1+2. Maybe make F2 unblockable. Improve useless utility skills, could add some boon rip there too.  Lower cd on ambush skills. Heck, they could add pets that can strip boons ...There is so much stuff that could be done to improve the spec and it's boon rip capabilites in particular. Without adding a trait that's going to be useless 90% of the time.

Edited October 8, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Bunny.9834]

Untamed lacks two main things in WvW. One of them is what OP mentioned and the one is tanking. 

It doesn't have the same tanking and boon removal capabilities as Spellbreaker. 

Only the top trait line is useful and the rest is meh. 

The problem is it relies too much on the Unleashed Pet Mechanic, which becomes useless when your pet melts in a blob fight. 

I think they need to change the middle trait into a true tanking trait.