Utility Skill - Venoms Rework Idea

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

It is my opinion that venoms are frustrating or problematic due to the fact stacks from other thieves may overwrite yours. The other day I had a random idea. Here it is.

Idea 1: What if venoms were on a recharge system like mantras are for guardians? Instead of applying MAX stacks for one usage perhaps a few stacks would be applied. For example let's say there were 2 recharges of spider venom giving 3 stacks in PvE per usage.

Also another problem problem is that venoms aren't as useful in solo content.

Idea 2: What if venoms acted differently depending on how many people it was supplied to?

edit: for clarity I am just talking about the utility venoms and not shelk venom

edit 2: updated the title

Edited October 30, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415
clarity | updated the title

[FlawlezZ.3178]

just remove the venom cap.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

1 hour ago, FlawlezZ.3178 said:

just remove the venom cap.

XD that would be amazing actually. I wonder how much damage 5 thieves in one party could do by just stacking venoms.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

Venoms should give boons to you and allies that are the opposite of the effect that it deals to the enemy. Skelk=protection Poison=regen, torment=swiftness, chill=quickness, stun=stability, immobilize=swiftness or resistance or something else. fits the specter fits the thief and helps others..combine with an alac with high concentration and tada! you have quick and alac and other boons

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

Oh also my stacking venom idea does not include Basalisk Venom. One note about it though. I find it very odd that it has such a long cast time for PvE. It bites into the fast flow thief usually has. It makes sense for WvW / PvP though.

Edited October 27, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[Batalix.2873]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:13 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Venoms should give boons to you and allies that are the opposite of the effect that it deals to the enemy. Skelk=protection Poison=regen, torment=swiftness, chill=quickness, stun=stability, immobilize=swiftness or resistance or something else. fits the specter fits the thief and helps others..combine with an alac with high concentration and tada! you have quick and alac and other boons

 

Sounds a little OP, but I admit you have me intrigued. It does seem to fit Specter more than DD or DE.

 

Actually, not to hijack your idea, but I think a Specter that did this on shroud instead of barrier would feel a lot more coherent.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

On 10/26/2022 at 7:13 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

Venoms should give boons to you and allies that are the opposite of the effect that it deals to the enemy. Skelk=protection Poison=regen, torment=swiftness, chill=quickness, stun=stability, immobilize=swiftness or resistance or something else. fits the specter fits the thief and helps others..combine with an alac with high concentration and tada! you have quick and alac and other boons

Based off of what was talked about in the balance stream, something like this wouldn't be changed to like this. It is a cool idea. I think they mentioned that they didnt want to have damage + a boon.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

We spoke on discord, where I mentioned the below:

Venoms should give boons to you and allies that are the opposite of the effect that it deals to the enemy. Skelk=protection Poison=regen, torment=swiftness, chill=quickness, stun=stability, immobilize=swiftness or resistance or something else. fits the specter fits the thief and helps others..combine with an alac with high concentration and tada! you have quick and alac and other boons

For example: 

Venom. Heal yourself. Your next few attacks heal you.

Initial Self Heal: 4,210 (0.75)^?

Healing: 1,206 (0.3)^?

Skelk Venom (30s): Striking an enemy heals you and applies protection when applied.

Number of Targets: 5

Number of Attacks: 5

Maximum Count: 5

30 seconds

Venom Duration: 24 seconds

Radius: 240

 

Throw in the 1s recharge per count (to prevent double tapping for accidental use like Scorpion Wire has) for each venom...this is an example of what each venom should do, buffing utilities, buffing allies and keeping functionality

 

@ZeroTheRuler.7415
@Double Tap 
@AikijinX.6258
@saerni.2584

Edited November 4, 2022 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Kodama.6453]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

chill=quickness

The opposite effect of chill would be alacrity, not quickness.

But I like the general idea of giving venoms some boons. They are supposed to be the main group support utility from core thief.

Edited November 4, 2022 by Kodama.6453

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

9 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

We spoke on discord, where I mentioned the below:

Venoms should give boons to you and allies that are the opposite of the effect that it deals to the enemy. Skelk=protection Poison=regen, torment=swiftness, chill=quickness, stun=stability, immobilize=swiftness or resistance or something else. fits the specter fits the thief and helps others..combine with an alac with high concentration and tada! you have quick and alac and other boons

For example: 

Venom. Heal yourself. Your next few attacks heal you.

Initial Self Heal: 4,210 (0.75)^?

Healing: 1,206 (0.3)^?

Skelk Venom (30s): Striking an enemy heals you and applies protection when applied.

Number of Targets: 5

Number of Attacks: 5

Maximum Count: 5

30 seconds

Venom Duration: 24 seconds

Radius: 240

 

Throw in the 1s recharge per count (to prevent double tapping for accidental use like Scorpion Wire has) for each venom...this is an example of what each venom should do, buffing utilities, buffing allies and keeping functionality

 

@ZeroTheRuler.7415
@Double Tap 
@AikijinX.6258
@saerni.2584

Providing group quickness and alacrity goes against what was said in the  balance philosophy document. 

On 10/28/2022 at 8:24 AM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Boon Support

A hybrid role focused on providing high uptime of key offensive boons, though a single build should not provide both quickness and alacrity. They also contribute to damage or healing in lesser amounts than dedicated builds for those roles.

 

Personally I think defensive boons and damage/cc shouldn't be on the same utility skill. Let it be offensive, or let it be defensive, but not both.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

on a first thought is somebody actually using venoms beside spider as dps boost and basilisk as utility right now? 

 

i think one issue lies in the fact that you share venoms with your party. i mean it was supposed to be the supportive group gimmick and i do get the idea, but even Anet decided to nerf it in that way.  If Venoms return to be weapon-enhancing skills only available to the thief itself i can see something according to your proposal and maybe also make them last for a defined time rather than count of hits. 

 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

while yes i understand it shouldnt be on the same build/class whathave you - specter still has endless night as a source of quickness, albeit not permanent unless you spam it on 1 person...its already done..add to the fact that we still have traits and skills that give individual quickness i really dont understand how they intend on changing it around. 1s quickness on a venom charge wouldnt hurt

[SlayerXX.7138]

2 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

on a first thought is somebody actually using venoms beside spider as dps boost and basilisk as utility right now? 

 

The fractal side list every venom besides chill as viable. Immobilize venom actually does damage because it triggers panic strike 10 timesXD. Skale does decent damage and provides 20 stack of vulnerability for halve the fight. Chill is sadly not the most useful status, especially because there isn't a point in stacking it. Ice drake venom is probably ready to be reworked somehow. Maybe power damage on hit could be nice.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

11 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

The fractal side list every venom besides chill as viable. Immobilize venom actually does damage because it triggers panic strike 10 timesXD. Skale does decent damage and provides 20 stack of vulnerability for halve the fight. Chill is sadly not the most useful status, especially because there isn't a point in stacking it. Ice drake venom is probably ready to be reworked somehow. Maybe power damage on hit could be nice.

I really like your idea about ice drake venoms. Also yes, panic strike is awesome, not to mention the fact shelk venoms performs quite well.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

Here is my full idea summarized.

Pain Point Summary

When you press a venom it currently instantly gives the party the MAX amount of stacks. If another thief uses the same venom your venoms get rewritten. Venoms are a big component for some condi builds. If you have two thieves in one group it greatly reduces the DPS a thief can do if you have more than one in the same group.

There are 6 venoms. I would like to zero in on only four of them.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Venom

Devourer Venom - 2 stacks - 40s cooldown PvE
Ice Drake Venom - 4 stacks - 36s cooldown PvE
Skale Venom - 4 stacks - 30s cooldown PvE
Spider Venom - 6 stacks - 30s cooldown PvE

Suggested Solution

It would be nice if the MAX stacks were raised or removed, however I am not suggesting that due to the fact these venoms are already quite strong. With this in mind I came up with the following idea to reduce the frustration for other thieves overwriting venoms. The overall idea is simple and wouldn't change the overall numbers very much, but would make things feel better.

1. change the 4 skills mentioned above to a reload system like mantras are
    * pro: venoms are less likely to overwrite each other if they are on a reload system
2. change the recharge timer to match the number of reloads divided by the original cooldown
    * pro: venoms will do the same amount of DPS or CC in the same amount of time so balance will be more simple
    * pro: venoms will feel more reactive, especially ice drake or devourer venom

Devourer Venom 
change to 2 reloads max
change to 1 stack used per reload
change reload timer to (40s / 2) = 20s

Ice Drake Venom
change to 2 reloads max
change to 2 stacks used per reload
change reload timer to (36s / 2) = 18s

Skale Venom
change to 2 reloads max
change to 2 stacks used per reload
change reload timer to (30s / 2) = 15s

Spider Venom
change to 2 reloads max
change to 3 stacks used per reload
change reload timer to (30s / 2) = 15s

PS: If anything my whole objective is to be creative and think up a way that would improve gameplay experience, but not change things too much. It was fun thinking up this idea.

Edited November 5, 2022 by ZeroTheRuler.7415