A theory on why Ranged classes are not buffed for PvE

[Obtena.7952]

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Lucky for us, the game is just a tad more complex than this, so such a simplistic view of how balance should work is not realistic.

It is? Compared to what? DOOM? This is the simplest MMO I've ever played. The fact that ranged needs to be punished to make it undesirable in encounters just shows how bad Anet is at designing said encounters.

Well, if you didn't take the comment out of context, I could answer that. Obviously, I was replying to someone and not making that comment in a bubble. Anet in no way punishes Ranged. That's a ridiculous sentiment. If you read the whole thread and what people had to say, you would understand why there are trade offs between ranged and melee ... and that's NOT just a GW2 thing either. Generally, MMO's have these ranged/melee trade offs.

[Fargas.6251]

So why not increase boons to reach ranged? So long as melee hit harder, what’s the harm? Make ranger be loosely viable for the newer or less skilled players (or those who just prefer the character fantasy of fighting at ranged), while melee still keeps its position as better for speed runs (or for those who prefer the character fantasy of dancing around all stabby stabby or those who just wanna be the juggernaut kitten.) Why not let the ranged have their 25k-27k dps to the melee 30k-32k?

[starlinvf.1358]

I'm surprised no one brought up the fact that the AI is the big reason we favor melee. A lot.... and I do mean A LOT of our biggest damage skills are based on aoe fields, roots, and pbaoe..... all of which rapidly diminish if the targets moves out of the damage zone.

Look at any raid or fractal fight, and the number one, unforgivable sin, is scattering to where the enemy wanders around the arena switching targets. That is what started the stacking meta in dungeons..... making the enemy stationary, so all the bombs will land for full effect. This same principle applies to to pvp and wvw- pin a target down long enough for the bomb to do max damage.

Clustering increases the damage delivered per cast.... and we are most limited on how often we can use a skill. This dynamic was different in GW1, where most skill where single target or even non damaging in nature, and aoes were usually middling damage on a per target level. With GW2, it either needs extremely high single target damage, or aoe/cleave to even be considered viable. Yet more then half the offensive skills in the game are both aoe and high damage.

Ranged vs melee and the buff situation isn't the root of the proposed issue..... we just take it for granted because we're accostomed to clustering enemies due to potato level AI behavior. Ironically, it was smarter in beta, making controls more important..... but beta feedback forced a change to be more tank and spank friendly for expats coming from more generic mmos.

[nemeth.4196]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Lucky for us, the game is just a tad more complex than this, so such a simplistic view of how balance should work is not realistic.

It is? Compared to what? DOOM? This is the simplest MMO I've ever played. The fact that ranged needs to be punished to make it undesirable in encounters just shows how bad Anet is at designing said encounters.

Well, if you didn't take the comment out of context, I could answer that. Obviously, I was replying to someone and not making that comment in a bubble. Anet in no way punishes Ranged. That's a ridiculous sentiment. If you read the whole thread and what people had to say, you would understand why there are trade offs between ranged and melee ... and that's NOT just a GW2 thing either. Generally, MMO's have these ranged/melee trade offs.

You're just talking out of your ass now. What other MMOs penalize ranged with damage nerf compared to melee because they are "safer"? SWTOR has sorcerers and snipers that were the top dmg for the longest times and the devs specifically said they want every class to be on the same terms when it comes to dps. WoW has hunters and mages that were always one of the best damage dealers in the game. FFXIV has summoners and black mages as one of the best dps classes. The list goes on. There are no MMOs that I can think of that actually make ranged weaker than melee because they are safer.

Also, ranged is hardly safer than melee in this game. Given how there are no tanks, your argument that you can just sit at range and ignore mechanics kinda falls apart when the boss just waltzes up to you and stuffs his mechanics up your face no matter the weapon you hold. Same goes for trash mobs where it literally makes no difference whether you are at range or in melee, the mobs will target you regardless.

[Obtena.7952]

@nemeth.4196 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Lucky for us, the game is just a tad more complex than this, so such a simplistic view of how balance should work is not realistic.

It is? Compared to what? DOOM? This is the simplest MMO I've ever played. The fact that ranged needs to be punished to make it undesirable in encounters just shows how bad Anet is at designing said encounters.

Well, if you didn't take the comment out of context, I could answer that. Obviously, I was replying to someone and not making that comment in a bubble. Anet in no way punishes Ranged. That's a ridiculous sentiment. If you read the whole thread and what people had to say, you would understand why there are trade offs between ranged and melee ... and that's NOT just a GW2 thing either. Generally, MMO's have these ranged/melee trade offs.

You're just talking out of your kitten now. What other MMOs penalize ranged with damage nerf compared to melee because they are "safer"? SWTOR has sorcerers and snipers that were the top dmg for the longest times and the devs specifically said they want every class to be on the same terms when it comes to dps. WoW has hunters and mages that were always one of the best damage dealers in the game. FFXIV has summoners and black mages as one of the best dps classes. The list goes on. There are no MMOs that I can think of that actually make ranged weaker than melee because they are safer.

Also, ranged is hardly safer than melee in this game. Given how there are no tanks, your argument that you can just sit at range and ignore mechanics kinda falls apart when the boss just waltzes up to you and stuffs his mechanics up your face no matter the weapon you hold. Same goes for trash mobs where it literally makes no difference whether you are at range or in melee, the mobs will target you regardless.

No I'm not. The FACT is that even though either range or melee can have the boss do that, the melee takes MUCH higher risk from that than any ranged player does because of their proximity to the mob they fight. Sad I have to explain very basic concepts to MMO players. Like I said, each kind of play has trade offs. Just because you ignore them or don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

[nemeth.4196]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@nemeth.4196 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Rhyse.8179 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Lucky for us, the game is just a tad more complex than this, so such a simplistic view of how balance should work is not realistic.

It is? Compared to what? DOOM? This is the simplest MMO I've ever played. The fact that ranged needs to be punished to make it undesirable in encounters just shows how bad Anet is at designing said encounters.

Well, if you didn't take the comment out of context, I could answer that. Obviously, I was replying to someone and not making that comment in a bubble. Anet in no way punishes Ranged. That's a ridiculous sentiment. If you read the whole thread and what people had to say, you would understand why there are trade offs between ranged and melee ... and that's NOT just a GW2 thing either. Generally, MMO's have these ranged/melee trade offs.

You're just talking out of your kitten now. What other MMOs penalize ranged with damage nerf compared to melee because they are "safer"? SWTOR has sorcerers and snipers that were the top dmg for the longest times and the devs specifically said they want every class to be on the same terms when it comes to dps. WoW has hunters and mages that were always one of the best damage dealers in the game. FFXIV has summoners and black mages as one of the best dps classes. The list goes on. There are no MMOs that I can think of that actually make ranged weaker than melee because they are safer.

Also, ranged is hardly safer than melee in this game. Given how there are no tanks, your argument that you can just sit at range and ignore mechanics kinda falls apart when the boss just waltzes up to you and stuffs his mechanics up your face no matter the weapon you hold. Same goes for trash mobs where it literally makes no difference whether you are at range or in melee, the mobs will target you regardless.

No I'm not. The FACT is that even though either range or melee can have the boss do that, the melee takes MUCH higher risk from that than any ranged player does because of their proximity to the mob they fight. Sad I have to explain very basic concepts to MMO players. Like I said, each kind of play has trade offs. Just because you ignore them or don't know about them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Unless you can actually provide an MMO that penalizes ranged character's damage compared to melee, then yes, you are. You don't see MMOs do that, because there are better ways to address the safer gameplay of ranged over melee. Stuff like better CC / mobility / defence skills for melee weapons for example.

And yes, I shouldn't have said that melee and ranged are the same risk, but melee is not MUCH riskier as you are continuously trying to portray. This game has one of the most, if not the riskiest ranged out of all the most popular MMOs, yet other MMOs don't feel the need to punish their ranged classes.

[Obtena.7952]

There are different advantages to melee and ranged, and as far as this game goes, Anet does a pretty decent job balancing those. If you think that's garbage, great ... this game allows you to decide how you want to play, so play to the one you think is most advantageous ... or not. I'm not going to have a no-value back and forth with someone that isn't experienced enough in MMO's to see how these melee/ranged tradeoffs work, and have worked for decades, in many MMO's.

Anet is not punishing Ranged classes like the OP thinks. That's just nonsense.

[nemeth.4196]

I ask you for the third time, show me an MMO that penalizes ranged damage compared to melee. The only person showing complete lack of experience with MMOs is you. Nobody is arguing there shouldn't be tradeoffs, that's only you pushing this angle because you quite clearly lack the arguments that would support your quest against equalizing the damage output of ranged and melee weapons. So let me spell this out for you clearly, so you don't get confused again. Tradeoffs = GOOD. Penalizing either's damage = BAD. Do you get it now?

With every post you show you have no idea how other MMOs work and how ranged and melee can have fair tradeoffs without touching either's damage output. SWTOR, WoW, FFXIV, ESO, fuck even Rift or Tera all managed to do that. So why not GW2?

[Obtena.7952]

You can ask all you want. I'm not arguing that other games penalize ranged compared to melee so why I would sit hear and make lists for you of the ones that do is rather ridiculous. I think you should have a more objective look at at this game. There are trade offs between ranged and melee ... ignore them if you like, wordsmith all you want. You get to choose how you want to play.

There is no punishment here for playing ranged in GW2; there IS Anet giving players choices to decide how they want to play based on their own ideas how to do so. If you think there is some unfair balance between ranged and melee, choose the one that suits you best. Why not GW2? because Anet says so ... I mean, it's that simple. if you don't like it, go play a game that does it the way you like.