Spike Trap Cooldown in PvE Game Modes

[Steviet.9184]

In February 25 2022 patch cooldown of Spike Trap has been reduced to 20 secs in competitive game modes.  Also damage reduced, which is fine since its a CC skill. Can we get this applied to PvE as  well? Ranger lacks a lot of CC. I feel like 45 secs CD without the trait, which most rangers don't use anyway, is absolute ridiculous. I for one would like more options for ranger utility, because it is lackluster across the board.

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

1 hour ago, Steviet.9184 said:

In February 25 2022 patch cooldown of Spike Trap has been reduced to 20 secs in competitive game modes.  Also damage reduced, which is fine since its a CC skill. Can we get this applied to PvE as  well? Ranger lacks a lot of CC. I feel like 45 secs CD without the trait, which most rangers don't use anyway, is absolute ridiculous. I for one would like more options for ranger utility, because it is lackluster across the board.

Ranger has plenty of soft CC and enough hard CC imo. Greatsword 4 on the flip, GS 5, longbow 4, axe 4, storm spirit flip, pink moa, gazelle, electric wyvern, all are hard CC. While it would be nice to have spike trap be stronger in damage, I don't think it necessarily needs the CC aspect to be strengthened.

Edited November 30, 2022 by RainbowTurtle.3542
My phone is going wacko and for whatever reason put the submit button further up as if I had swiped to it

[Steviet.9184]

2 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Ranger has plenty of soft CC and enough hard CC imo. Greatsword 4 on the flip, GS 5, longbow 4, axe 4, storm spirit flip, pink moa, gazelle, electric wyvern, all are hard CC. While it would be nice to have spike trap be stronger in damage, I don't think it necessarily needs the CC aspect to be strengthened.

There is only 1 other utility CC available and that's storm spirit. I'm well aware of weapon cc but I'm talking about utilities. Spike trap feels worth to take in other game modes but it feels bad in PvE.  I would like to have more options available and not save up my weapon skills just for cc. Also why do you need spike trap do deal more damage, we have 3 other damage dealing traps that are pretty flexible.

[Mell.4873]

What context do you need that much CC.

If you are talking about Fervent Force, then the CC we have is fine (maybe not Path of Scars that needs a nerf)

If you mean breakbars we have tones of really good Pet skills that can do it for us.

[Kodama.6453]

14 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

If you are talking about Fervent Force, then the CC we have is fine (maybe not Path of Scars that needs a nerf)

It's fervent force which needs to get deleted (and thankfully, Anet already acknowledged that they need to bring that trait down once they made adjustments to untamed), not path of scars needing a nerf.

@Steviet.9184The reason why spike trap has the reduced cooldown in PvP is because as a hard CC, they have stripped it's entire damage in that game mode. In PvP/WvW, the skill is literally just a CC and nothing more, such a long cooldown was no longer warranted for it there.

But in PvE, the damage is still there. So the cooldown is still warranted. If you reduce the cooldown to 20 seconds, then it competes with sharpening stone, since it does quite alot of bleeding (especially if you take the trait trapper's expertise), on top of CCing the enemy. With such a low cooldown, there would be no reason to take sharpening stone anymore.

[Zyreva.1078]

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's fervent force which needs to get deleted

What did FF Untamed do to you that you hate it so much?

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

@Steviet.9184The reason why spike trap has the reduced cooldown in PvP is because as a hard CC, they have stripped it's entire damage in that game mode. In PvP/WvW, the skill is literally just a CC and nothing more, such a long cooldown was no longer warranted for it there.

But in PvE, the damage is still there. So the cooldown is still warranted.

The cd got reduced to 30s in PvP and WvW long before that, because it was garbage with 45s cd - just like it still is in PvE (and even at 30s it was rather underwhelming). Also other cc skills don't come with a cd "penalty" (let alone such a huge one) just because they still get to deal damage in PvE.

8 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If you reduce the cooldown to 20 seconds, then it competes with sharpening stone, since it does quite alot of bleeding (especially if you take the trait trapper's expertise), on top of CCing the enemy. With such a low cooldown, there would be no reason to take sharpening stone anymore.

It is unlikely to compete with sharpening stone, which is the best dps utility for condi ranger by far (not taking sharpened edges is a dps loss). It might compete with viper's nest on condi slb (at the cost of some sustain and maybe also dps, as the latter still deals more dmg). Also they could always adjust the dmg if it turns out to be too good at 20s cd. The biggest deal would be that it would allow dps untamed to replace storm spirit - which would make it a lot less annoying to play.

But since you've already made your bias towards said spec very clear, i don't expect any reasonable arguments from your side.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 minute ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

which is the best dps utility for condi ranger by far

It's not like condi ranger have a lot of things to chose from when it come to utilities anyway.

[Fishyflakes.5431]

If they brought the CD down to 20, it would be quite a nice Defiance breaker similar to Throw Mine from Engineer (minus the boon removal).
AFAIK Power uses Frost Trap for DPS not Spike Trap anyway.

[Kodama.6453]

19 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

What did FF Untamed do to you that you hate it so much?

It didn't do anything to me, but if I see a broken design I will call it out as such. And fervent force, from it's very core, is a pretty broken design. You might disagree with this, but Anet already admitted that fervent force is problematic and will get brought down eventually.

It is trait which literally does it all. Boon uptime, damage, healing, CC, simply everything your build does is improved by taking this one single trait. The only thing which holds it back is that it is fairly hard to use at full potential. But if it is used at that level, then it is without a doubt the strongest trait this game has ever seen, the stuff it enables is pretty ridiculous.

And that is also strangling the other grandmaster trait choices for untamed. Against a target which lets you hit it reliably with CC, like stationary bosses, why should I ever take a damage trait like ferocious symbiosis if fervent force will increase my damage even more than this dedicated damage trait, on top of all the other stuff it does?

[Zyreva.1078]

48 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It is trait which literally does it all. Boon uptime, damage, healing, CC, simply everything your build does is improved by taking this one single trait. The only thing which holds it back is that it is fairly hard to use at full potential. But if it is used at that level, then it is without a doubt the strongest trait this game has ever seen, the stuff it enables is pretty ridiculous.

Ah yes, the terrible design of hard to utilize stuff actually having a worthwhile output and skillfull play getting rewarded. We need more passive procs and boons and afk gameplay instead ... (considering how incredibly niche and rare FF Untamed actually is, one could argue the trait is too weak actually, but w/e). Also what ridiculous stuff does it actually enable? We aren't seeing players soloing raids on Untamed or stacking it for ridiculous fast speed kills, are we? (Yes, it can solo Cairn, but so can other builds).

48 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

why should I ever take a damage trait like ferocious symbiosis if fervent force will increase my damage even more than this dedicated damage trait, on top of all the other stuff it does?

Because not everything let's you hit cc reliable and not everyone can pull the required rotation off. FF is currently only used in niche and rarely played builds in PvE. Nerf it and it becomes useless. Change it and it becomes another boring, passive and uninteractive trait among many others. Fact is, FF does not cause balance issues in actual gameplay. Whether is is op on paper should be irrelevant. It's the practical application that matters, and you have yet to provide any problematic use case.

Edited December 1, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kodama.6453]

40 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ah yes, the terrible design of hard to utilize stuff actually having a worthwhile output and skillfull play getting rewarded. We need more passive procs and boons and afk gameplay instead ... (considering how incredibly niche and rare FF Untamed actually is, one could argue the trait is too weak actually, but w/e).

No one says that everything needs to become passive procs and such. But there is still a limit how much you should get rewarded, even for complicated gameplay. That case is not entirely black and white.

41 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Also what ridiculous stuff does it actually enable? We aren't seeing players soloing raids on Untamed or stacking it for ridiculous fast speed kills, are we? (Yes, it can solo Cairn, but so can other builds).

Holding the highest dps build for quite some time (now got outperformed by catalyst and deadeye because of pretty hefty buffs this patch), while being intended as a bruiser spec instead of pure dps.

Holding the highest alacrity dps build additionally with 0 investment in any boon duration.

49 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Nerf it and it becomes useless.

Doubt. Don't think it would become useless if you nerf the cooldown reduction from 4 seconds to 3 seconds instead, for example. Would it be weaker? Yes, of course. Would it be useless? Most likely not.

50 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Change it and it becomes another boring, passive and uninteractive trait among many others.

That depends on what they are changing it into. But it seems you once again have this black and white thinking of "FF is interactive, anything else is passive trash".

51 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Fact is, FF does not cause balance issues in actual gameplay. Whether is is op on paper should be irrelevant. It's the practical application that matters, and you have yet to provide any problematic use case.

Anet does not balance around on paper. They can directly observe the performance of stuff in actual usage cases and can quantify it with actual numbers. And they have acknowledged that FF is a problematic design. That you don't notice the effects of this trait directly yourself does not mean there is no factual problem with it.

We already got told that it is a problem and will get brought down. Sorry, that is the reality of that trait. And I personally hope that change comes sooner rather than later.

[Zyreva.1078]

20 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Holding the highest dps build for quite some time (now got outperformed by catalyst and deadeye because of pretty hefty buffs this patch), while being intended as a bruiser spec instead of pure dps.

Holding the highest alacrity dps build additionally with 0 investment in any boon duration.

Against a target golem. Irrelevant. Also "bruiser" isn't a role in PvE, so you think it shouldn't be viable in that game mode at all? (Not that it fits that role in any game mode rn ...)

20 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Don't think it would become useless if you nerf the cooldown reduction from 4 seconds to 3 seconds instead, for example. Would it be weaker? Yes, of course. Would it be useless? Most likely not.

How "unplayed" has something to become, before you'd consider it useless? (it's even now <1% playrate according to wingman stats, mind you).

20 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Anet does not balance around on paper. They can directly observe the performance of stuff in actual usage cases and can quantify it with actual numbers. And they have acknowledged that FF is a problematic design. That you don't notice the effects of this trait directly yourself does not mean there is no factual problem with it.

Ah yes, the almighty devs and their comprehensive game knowledge ...

That's why all their changes and balance desicions and the overall game design are flawless and only getting better and better each patch ...

It's delusional to think that devs know actual gameplay better than players who spend thousands of hours actually playing the game instead of just looking at numbers.

Edited December 1, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Kodama.6453]

31 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Against a target golem. Irrelevant. Also "bruiser" isn't a role in PvE, so you think it shouldn't be viable in that game mode at all? (Not that it fits that role in any game mode rn ...)

Again putting words into my mouth I never said.

Bruiser is an elite spec type Anet designs, that is the reality of it. Spellbreaker, scrapper, daredevil, untamed, catalyst... these are all intended bruiser specs, designed to have a mixture of both defense and offense in their kit.

It is not a role in PvE end game, so it is usually used as a dps. But these spec should not outdo the respective dps specs of their classes when it comes to this.

Why did they buff holosmith recently? Scrapper was out dpsing holosmith as a bruiser spec. As a result, there was absolutely no reason to ever use holosmith. Because not only did scrapper deal more damage, but it also has an easier time staying alive in all content because of it's ability to produce lots of barriers for itself.

Meanwhile if holosmith outperforms scrapper in dps, there is incentive for both to get used. Holosmith deals more damage. But if you need to stay alive while doing dps, scrapper is still the superior choice, because it has better defensive capabilities.

It should be the same for untamed and soulbeast. Soulbeast is already a pretty good dps spec when it comes to numbers. But untamed gets to outperform it regardless, while also having baked in defensive capabilities.

36 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

How "unplayed" has something to become, before you'd consider it useless? (it's even now <1% playrate according to wingman stats, mind you).

The same people who use fervent force right now would still use it if the cooldown reduction were just 3 seconds instead of 4. It would still be a very powerful trait in skilled hands. The reason why it isn't used isn't it's strength, but the lack of people willing to put the work into mastering it.

37 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ah yes, the almighty devs and their comprehensive game knowledge ...

That's why all their changes and balance desicions and the overall game design are flawless and only getting better and better each patch ...

It's delusional to think that devs know actual gameplay better than players who spend thousands of hours actually playing the game instead of just looking at numbers.

The main struggle of the devs is thinking of actual solutions of the problems they encounter. But their ability to identify actual balance problems in the game seems to be pretty good so far.

And looking at objective numbers is the best if you try to balance something, at least in my opinion. Because the numbers are the closest to reality when it comes to valuing how strong something really is. Doesn't matter if people believe that something is strong or weak. If the numbers say it's one or another, then that's just how it is.

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But these spec should not outdo the respective dps specs of their classes when it comes to this.

You mean like cata? And when it didn't it was basically non existent. Great spec design for sure ...

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Why did they buff holosmith recently?

Because it was underperforming (and therefore underplayed) compared to meta dps specs (which does not include scrapper, which SC lists below power holo in terms of dps and is typically played as quickness provider). And holo probably still was more common than Untamed.

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But untamed gets to outperform it regardless, while also having baked in defensive capabilities.

Right, that's why nobody plays soulbeast ... oh wait. Your claims become more and more ridiculous.

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

The main struggle of the devs is thinking of actual solutions of the problems they encounter. But their ability to identify actual balance problems in the game seems to be pretty good so far.

You mean like when they removed "meta defining" cata from existence, just to bring it back now with pretty similar performance? Or when they kept buffing mech even tho it was grossly overrepresented already? WvW meta supports definitely needed more healing while boon stip needs nerfs the most, right? The list of questionable balance desicions is long, and the one for bad design even longer ...

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

And looking at objective numbers is the best if you try to balance something, at least in my opinion. Because the numbers are the closest to reality when it comes to valuing how strong something really is.

Not when your objective numbers are just golem benchmarks that have proven to be a very bad representation of how strong something is in actual gameplay.

[Dadnir.5038]

2 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

That depends on what they are changing it into.

I'm betting on: "Gain self-alacrity upon succesfully landing a hard CC. Alacrity is twice as effective on you."

Basically chronomancer's improve alacrity trait but without drawbacks.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Dadnir.5038

[Zyreva.1078]

28 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm betting on: "Gain self-alacrity upon succesfully landing a hard CC. Alacrity is twice as effective on you."

Basically chronomancer's improve alacrity trait but without drawbacks.

Sound's about right. Lazy copy-pasta trait and more boooons ...

Funnily enough that wouldn't even adress Kodama's problem of the trait "doing everything", because guess what, that's what cd reduction does.

[Kodama.6453]

36 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Sound's about right. Lazy copy-pasta trait and more boooons ...

Funnily enough that wouldn't even adress Kodama's problem of the trait "doing everything", because guess what, that's what cd reduction does.

True, it doesn't fix that problem. There is a reason why alacrity is the most powerful boon in the entire game.

I could live with such a change. It would still improve everything, but at least not to the extreme level it does currently and it would also stop untamed from benefitting from FF and alacrity at the same time. Improved alacrity is still way less potent than having current FF on top of alacrity.

But as a side note: Anet also already mentioned that they dislike the cooldown reduction traits and are actively taking them away one after another. We had way more cooldown reduction traits in the past, but step by step they get taken away.

[Zyreva.1078]

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

I could live with such a change.

Ofc you would. All hail the braindead boon spam meta (and untamed rendered useless in PvE).

34 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

But as a side note: Anet also already mentioned that they dislike the cooldown reduction traits and are actively taking them away one after another. We had way more cooldown reduction traits in the past, but step by step they get taken away.

I already asked you once for a source of that claim and you didn't respond, so i'll ask you again: When and where did they say they want to remove cd reduction traits from the game? Because it's not part of the "balance philosophy" they presented.

(No, having removed some cd reduction traits does not mean they want to remove all of them. Many other traits have been removed too).

Edited December 1, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Mell.4873]

23 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It's fervent force which needs to get deleted (and thankfully, Anet already acknowledged that they need to bring that trait down once they made adjustments to untamed), not path of scars needing a nerf.

@Steviet.9184.can't remove on phone

I know its sad that they might since without fervent force Untamed loses it entire identity. Hopefully its gets replaced with an equally powerful cooldown reduction trait but I doupt it. 

I mean I even use Fervent Force in pvp to help reset Pike Trap which ties into this thread. 

[Mell.4873]

22 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

It didn't do anything to me, but if I see a broken design I will call it out as such. And fervent force, from it's very core, is a pretty broken design. You might disagree with this, but Anet already admitted that fervent force is problematic and will get brought down eventually.

It is trait which literally does it all. Boon uptime, damage, healing, CC, simply everything your build does is improved by taking this one single trait. The only thing which holds it back is that it is fairly hard to use at full potential. But if it is used at that level, then it is without a doubt the strongest trait this game has ever seen, the stuff it enables is pretty ridiculous.

And that is also strangling the other grandmaster trait choices for untamed. Against a target which lets you hit it reliably with CC, like stationary bosses, why should I ever take a damage trait like ferocious symbiosis if fervent force will increase my damage even more than this dedicated damage trait, on top of all the other stuff it does?

Again the most problematic skill with Fervent Force is Path of Scars. Once the trait has been applied the 12 second cooldown gives you a 4 second reset timer with another stun (so another 4 second cooldown reduction) . If the removed the cooldown reduction trait a 7 second reset window is much more reasonable.

The only alternative to this is camping non-Unleashed Hammer which is horrible DPS. 

The only real argument left is you can self-boon with most stuff in the game once you remove how OP path of scars is. No more 41k dps. 

Edited December 2, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

22 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Ah yes, the terrible design of hard to utilize stuff actually having a worthwhile output and skillfull play getting rewarded. We need more passive procs and boons and afk gameplay instead ... (considering how incredibly niche and rare FF Untamed actually is, one could argue the trait is too weak actually, but w/e). Also what ridiculous stuff does it actually enable? We aren't seeing players soloing raids on Untamed or stacking it for ridiculous fast speed kills, are we? (Yes, it can solo Cairn, but so can other builds).

Because not everything let's you hit cc reliable and not everyone can pull the required rotation off. FF is currently only used in niche and rarely played builds in PvE. Nerf it and it becomes useless. Change it and it becomes another boring, passive and uninteractive trait among many others. Fact is, FF does not cause balance issues in actual gameplay. Whether is is op on paper should be irrelevant. It's the practical application that matters, and you have yet to provide any problematic use case.

I couldnt articulate a better argument. 

I love it becouse its so niche and have the ability through my own mastery of the class to live through anything while doing 10k dps which is anything but OP.