The State of Untamed in WvW (DO NOT REMOVE FERVENT FORCE)

[Pharmacist.5410]

2 hours ago, Beddo.1907 said:

One, there is a difference between alac, CD reduction and FF. Two, all of those CD reduction skills stack up.
FF can chain into effectively 10-100% CD reduction, which allows you to use a skill of you choice at stupidly high rate.
If you add the other two CD reduction effects, it becomes even easier to abuse FF and can be dangerous if each and every change isn't balanced around it. 

This is a GLOBAL issue. Even if you split the trait values, it doesn't remove the problem.
The trait is still there affecting future changes. As an example: too much immunity, healing and other defense in skills and you can cycle into immortality. (fun fact you can already have 11s of immunity)
But why not just nerf those skills and problem solved? Because then builds that don't use FF end up with a nerf.

Other class exclusive CD reductions are nowhere near this, due to less triggers and no loop.

There’s just needs to be changes exclusively to PvE and maybe so that’s probably your main concern, I absolutely beg you try it in WvW for a couple days then come back here.

it is a perfectly balanced tempo trait that seriously doesn’t affect core abilities that drastically. It opens a window for speeding up and diversifying play styles to differentiate from regular power builds. It pseudo-promotes build diversity to open windows for clutch plays with  and is not just some spammable ability. So long as you have great pet management , skill and timing you benefit from it. man I’m literally repeating myself.. 

You’re opinions are slightly skewed because you’re under the impression it’s just a non stop spammable PVE trait. Please cut it out. All it needs is some proper tuning for crying out loud.

and you have to realize how other builds have far broken mechanics that grant immunity for other professions tied to their core traits and there’s not much being done about them. Although I understand how similar cd reduc traits have been nerfed in the past. FF simply does not affect and won’t affect future core changes as much as you think, even in PvE. But let’s not talk about PvE.

this is a unique and carefully designed mechanic which I’m sure the devs took a lot of time to develop Untamed as a spec that can pump out CC. SOME kind of cd reduction trait or be it a baseline change that allows certain CDs to become readily for use adds a unique utility to ranger that feels rewarding with Untamed when ONLY when played correctly in a pvp setting. 

It requires proper execution and awareness, that ALMOST can help Ranger compete with Warrior CC chains. Which is infinitely more broken than Untamed even with the current FF. It allows Ranger to execute similar cc chains except it can pump out decent conditions as well. The ability to do that It’s what separates it from other profs, despite it not being the main trait choice, it does offer a tempo increase which is necessary to implement with Untamed in someway shape or form. The idea of FF was a step in the right direction and you’re not aware of it.

please acknowledge that I am aware it needs to be tuned and will be tuned. 

So either they keep it and tune it down a bit or create a condition damage applying trait for modifier or something that adds a boost unleashed weapon skills in place of it.

Let’s not refer to how it functions in PvE, we are aware it overperforms in that arena.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Pharmacist.5410

[ApaWanka.2698]

So I guess that we agree that FF on its current state is a problem on PvE.

 

PvE people (in general) want it to go, PvP and WvW people don’t see issues with it. 

 

the Debate now I guess that is if an overturned and abused trait on one game mode is enough to provoke the remove from it on the other two game modes where it’s not a problem. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

 

So I guess that we agree that FF on its current state is a problem on PvE.

 

PvE people (in general) want it to go, PvP and WvW people don’t see issues with it. 

 

the Debate now I guess that is if an overturned and abused trait on one game mode is enough to provoke the remove from it on the other two game modes where it’s not a problem. 

Probably no causation for removal, especially when mode splits exist.  

I don't see a reason to take FF in competitive, because most of the CCs abused with it won't be taken (i.e. storm spirt) or won't hit (i.e. path of scars).  Other two GM's are just better picks here.

If they want to balance it, they could just make it apply to only cantrips like they did with bladesworn shout reset.  If they do this, the 2s/4s split won't even matter as PvE'rs will stop taking it anyway.  

8 hours ago, Pharmacist.5410 said:

this is a unique and carefully designed mechanic which I’m sure the devs took a lot of time to develop Untamed as a spec that can pump out CC.

Just my two cents, but I'd temper the expectations a bit there.  Fervent Force doesn't even work with pet CC's and unleashing the pet is literally half the spec.  So unique, yes--carefully designed? Nope.  

Edited December 8, 2022 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Zaret.1450]

9 hours ago, ApaWanka.2698 said:

First if all Im not claiming that FF is on its best implementation, I just think that a full remove would hurt build diversity. You can change it by Alacrity on CC and I would be still happy because still something new for rangers that add diversity.  
 

Anyway, again you are pointing from PvE approach, I understands why you don’t want both effects stack but again, that us just an issue on PvE……. Stack effects between few people on PvP or roaming is not a reliable enough (see roaming builds a videos on YT) and something based CC for Zerg plays where the standards are perma Stab during clash moments so tiggers on CC don’t add anything. 
 

FF is just a problem for PvE, so if you change the 4s  to 1s or convert it to Alacrity so don’t stack problem solved without a full remove. 

 

 

id say just making it 2.5 seconds would be enought, think that right now 4 seconds means you can almost have your skills rotate without any downtime nor dmg decrease, and that you activate FF several times in the rotation, so making it loose just 1 second and multipliing for the number of times the trait triggers, means the true nerf would be more significative, in wvw and pvp it has 2 sec cd reduction(at least in wvw it is 2 seconds) and there you can feel a significant change from the 4 seconds in pve, so making it 3 seconds in pve could be enought to lower the benchmark dmg just enought so it isnt overperforming, if 3 is not enought 1.5 seconds would still be acceptable and within margins, converting it in alacrity would be a big change as the mecanic, while working in a similar way and the same basis, cd reduction, is also diferent in the core, it would just be like deleting and giving alac to untamed, wich is a significant playstile chamge in my opinion.

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

id say just making it 2.5 seconds would be enought, think that right now 4 seconds means you can almost have your skills rotate without any downtime nor dmg decrease, and that you activate FF several times in the rotation, so making it loose just 1 second and multipliing for the number of times the trait triggers, means the true nerf would be more significative, in wvw and pvp it has 2 sec cd reduction(at least in wvw it is 2 seconds) and there you can feel a significant change from the 4 seconds in pve, so making it 3 seconds in pve could be enought to lower the benchmark dmg just enought so it isnt overperforming, if 3 is not enought 1.5 seconds would still be acceptable and within margins, converting it in alacrity would be a big change as the mecanic, while working in a similar way and the same basis, cd reduction, is also diferent in the core, it would just be like deleting and giving alac to untamed, wich is a significant playstile chamge in my opinion.

Changing the effect to give alacrity to the untamed (maybe improved alacrity like chronomancer) seems like a promising approach in my opinion.

The thing with the flat cooldown reduction is that it means a heavy difference on the impact on different skills. A skill with an already short cooldown gets a massive reduction (traited splitblade, for example, currently gets an almost 100% cooldown reduction just from triggering FF once.... even if the reduction becomes just 2,5 seconds, that's still more than 50% cooldown reduction for that skill).

Giving it alacrity on the other hand would normalize the cooldown reduction you get for all the skills. Alacrity (unenhanced) always gives 20% cooldown reduction, no matter how the baseline cooldown of the skill is.

Changing it to alacrity would also stop untamed from "double dipping". Currently, they can get the effects of FF on top of alacrity, which just results in absolute bonkers cooldown reduction in total. If the trait is changed to giving alacrity, then they won't get all these effects stacked.

And since it still reduces cooldowns, it would still keep the identity of being a tempo trait, as many people want it to stay. It just wouldn't give such a massive amount of tempo anymore.

[Zaret.1450]

I think i better resume what i have seen and thought about FF so far.

In pve the trait reduces all cooldowns when a cc hits the enemy by 4 seconds, while in wvw (and i guess pvp) it only reduces them by 2 seconds.

Now for pve this trait makes viable builds that make possible skill usage almost non stop while the use of auto attack is minimal, this great numbers in benchmarks but also a fairly high dificulty on the build usage.

To balance it out, only nerfing FF and nothing else, id say lowering the cd reduction effect, to 3 or maybe 2.5 seconds, would be enought, this way we maintain a fast rotation and lots of skills being used and cd reduced, but we would need to fit more autoattacks in between, probably lowering the overall dmg but not a huge amount.

In wvw untamed is being used mostly for roaming, and i think gvg, while normal wvw zergs dont realy make use of them, the roaming build uses the other traits instead of FF, its normal, in a 1v1 or 5v5 its easyer to make pet usefull while in zerg fights its too much for peta to survive most of the time, so maybe making hammer skills have a bit bigger area, more specificaly the 2 hit on hammer 3 and hammer 5, why? because in a zerg fight an attack of 200 area instead of 150 has more probability to hit and thus be more usefull, also even with fb nerfs now people bring mesmers and other stab sources so that area cc, while bothersome wont be oppresing, but a bit of area would make sure some skills do hit the enemy and thus activate FF, wich would then make untamed be able to use other skills and do more dmg and area control.

Now why do this? well we have necromancers, wich can corrupt boons and also do fairly good area dmg, things that are pretty important in big zergs, dragonhinters have a great amount of dmg in their traps, gs and longbow is great with lb 5, revenants have also very good dmg, stability and other similar utilities, spellbreaker has boon strip and good cc with hammer, and some other builds are also very good.

But ranger is more relegated to smal fights or using druid in zergs, lb is a good weapon, but its area of effect isnt awesome, ambush skills are great too, but being on the autoattack and timing means theyre not reliable, pets are too frail in huge fights to be consistent, so making ambush skills replace the 2 skill from all weapons, not by timing but similar to hammer, and having hammer have the auto become the tornado, would give a significant boost in untamed area dmg overall, also giving it a reliable boon corrupt, not as good as necro but still reliable, making hammer cc a bit wider in area would make fervent force be a viable option for a zerg build when pets cant survive the presure and thus the other traits arent as great for dmg, and then even if you made pets better by making all pet related traits be in beastmastery(yes im talking about the boon sharing trait) then i dont think untamed would end up broken, just become a viable option for the other dps classes in wvw

[Zaret.1450]

4 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Changing the effect to give alacrity to the untamed (maybe improved alacrity like chronomancer) seems like a promising approach in my opinion.

The thing with the flat cooldown reduction is that it means a heavy difference on the impact on different skills. A skill with an already short cooldown gets a massive reduction (traited splitblade, for example, currently gets an almost 100% cooldown reduction just from triggering FF once.... even if the reduction becomes just 2,5 seconds, that's still more than 50% cooldown reduction for that skill).

Giving it alacrity on the other hand would normalize the cooldown reduction you get for all the skills. Alacrity (unenhanced) always gives 20% cooldown reduction, no matter how the baseline cooldown of the skill is.

Changing it to alacrity would also stop untamed from "double dipping". Currently, they can get the effects of FF on top of alacrity, which just results in absolute bonkers cooldown reduction in total. If the trait is changed to giving alacrity, then they won't get all these effects stacked.

And since it still reduces cooldowns, it would still keep the identity of being a tempo trait, as many people want it to stay. It just wouldn't give such a massive amount of tempo anymore.

The thing is that it was made to work that way, as a complement to alacrity that makes a spaming build viable, fast paced, frenetic and engaging, of course 4 seconds have proven to be too much, but if we look at how many times the trait triggers if you just reduce it by 1 or 2 seconds that would be a good nerf without making it useless on boring, you can try it in wvw with some alacrity source and see it, on the other hand making it an alacrity source would be too bland if it isnt a shared alac trait, wich i dont realy think is needed having spirits, and making it a trait that gives upgaded alac effects, say double them, well it is like some other classes traits and also isnt realy a trait good enought to be in that slot, if i were to compare to other recent nerfs, engineer sneak gyro did too may good things in one button, and fb tomes were also too good and too accesible so they got nerfed and also tomes needed a bit change on the mecanic itself, but FF is a fine trait, just the number is a bit too good in pve, a small nerf in how much it recharges would be enought to make balance fans, and id call them class soul fans, both happy.

I might be wrong but i think we can afford a try at number changes, see what happens, and if its still too much we can allwais work somwthing out on alacrity or on another path

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Let's just go crazy and take Fervent Force off of Untamed while putting it on Core Ranger.