Hefty nerf on Catalyst again

[Passerbye.6291]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Claiming ele players want 47K DPS is asinine. That is the definition of a strawman.

You say this in a thread complaining about hefty cata nerfs for being nerfed down to 42k mate, there are people here, in this very thread if you care to read, complaining about this well deserved nerf and you are saying it is a strawman lol.
 

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

People aren't overplaying the difficulty of catalyst because there is no such thing as a low intensity catalyst

Not being difficult ≠ low intensity, I argued that it isn't that difficult, which it isn't, proven by me, an average joe, being able to hit 35k in 2 hours on an elite I never played before. Now, there are indeed low intensity builds for ele as well, not every class or elite needs to do 30k dps with 4 buttons. You pick a class that is literally based around cycling through attunements

 

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even the benchmark in a stationary spot doesn't maintain 10 stacks of EE

Maybe, just maybe, you aren't supposed to? Power virtuoso doesn't maintain the shatter buff at all times either, you make sure to use it before bursts to maximize your damage. Whether 10 stacks of EE should be maintained is a different discussion, but, even in its current state with it being hard, the class is benching over 42k, so I feel like it's alright.

 

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It also happens to be described by benchmarkers as "a very high learning curve build and is a huge step up in difficulty compared to Power Weaver, and most other builds in the game, for that matter"

And yet I was able to do 35k in 2 hours with no infusions, whereas it takes people a lot more time to do 35k on power virtuoso for instance, a class with fairly low skill floor (because it is a low skill floor, takes effort and some skill with the class to reach 35 tho), because cata simply benches over 10% more than power virtuoso, giving you more room for error to do the same damage. 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

24 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

You say this in a thread complaining about hefty cata nerfs for being nerfed down to 42k mate, there are people here, in this very thread if you care to read, complaining about this well deserved nerf and you are saying it is a strawman lol.
 

Not being difficulty ≠ low intensity, I argued that it isn't that difficult, which it isn't, proven by me, an average joe, being able to hit 35k in 2 hours on an elite I never played before. Now, there are indeed low intensity builds for ele as well, not every class or elite needs to do 30k dps with 4 buttons. You pick a class that is literally based around cycling through 

 

Maybe, just maybe, you aren't supposed to? Power virtuoso doesn't maintain the shatter buff at all times either, you make sure to use it before bursts to maximize your damage. Whether 10 stacks of EE should be maintained is a different discussion, but, even in its current state with it being hard, the class is benching over 42k, so I feel like it's alright.

 

And yet I was able to do 35k in 2 hours with no infusions, whereas it takes people a lot more time to do 35k on power virtuoso for instance, a class with fairly low skill floor (because it is a low skill floor, takes effort and some skill with the class to reach 35 tho), because it simply benches over 10% more than power virtuoso, giving you more room for error to do same damage. 

The difference is EE is ALL STATS. A simple power damage modifier is far different and the mechanism of activation (on bladesong "shatters") is far easier to execute and understand. It's analogous to dropping your fire orb. "It benches more than power virtuoso" isn't a valid argument because the situations where that is meaningful are golem-like bosses such as Keep Construct. Power virtuoso dagger+sword with greatsword (I still play sword+focus as the swap out of habit) is more or less ranged. Catalyst is more vulnerable to movement due to the AoEs, whether it is jade sphere (5s), hurricane of pain (3s), fiery greatsword (8s), or lightning hammer /glyph of storms if you opt to use those). The only time I have actually seen players play Catalyst that aren't ele mains that I know by name (I'm not an ele main by any stretch of imagination) is on KC when there was a 45K bench. The Catalysts barely did more than power soulbeasts regardless and probably had way more stress and APM. Logs on wingman also put the average catalyst as barely above other specs barring outlier players (probably benchmarkers).

There is zero actual reward for playing a harder spec in this game which is why typically people opting for the masochism of playing a "hard rotation" are content creators and people out to set a point they can do it (i.e. people that are ele mains). If this wasn't the case we wouldn't see so many people playing power mechanists even on condi fights. I've joined many W5 Emboldened this week and sometimes half the group is running rifle mechanist. There was a time that someone joined a strike as an untamed saying I would be impressed but I was top DPS on mirage (and I'm not a benchmark level player) so that's sort of what I mean.

If you paid attention to my comments in this thread above, I even pointed out the DPS decrease of the nerf. The issue is that Arenanet did nothing for accessibility (i.e. reverting auto on water). If they're balancing based off what players can realistically achieve then EE could be reduced in efficacy and made easier to use (it would still reward people with a better rotation), energy should be removed as a gating mechanism (needless added resource management), CC on air attunement shouldn't throw you backward into walls, and melee ranged auto attacks should do more on hammer.

P.S. Catalyst wasn't 47K prepatch, it was more along the lines of 45K (46.2K "max")

Edited December 22, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Passerbye.6291]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The only time I have actually seen players play Catalyst that aren't ele mains that I know by name (I'm not an ele main by any stretch of imagination) is on KC when there was a 45K bench

Yes because catalyst isn't as bursty as some other power builds, what a shocker that in a fight where burst is king, catalyst could still outdps a burst spec and you think that's not a problem.

 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The difference is EE is ALL STATS. A simple power damage modifier is far different and the mechanism of activation (on bladesong "shatters") is far easier to execute and understand.

Wasn't hard at all, just required reading comprehension

 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"It benches more than power virtuoso" isn't a valid argument because the situations where that is meaningful are golem-like bosses such as Keep Construct.

We're discussing DPS balance, but sure, dps uptime is a factor, but so is cleave, cata has infinitely more cleave than power virtuoso. Not every class and build has to perform at the same level in every encounter. For instance power weaver is better than power cata for fractals as well because it his burstier.

 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If this wasn't the case we wouldn't see so many people playing power mechanists even on condi fights.

There are very few actual condi fights anymore after the changes to balance and class specific buffs. A boss is considered power boss if it has phases and/or has lower than the default amount of armor, other than that, so long as you are able to play a given power or condi build at the same level, you can bring power dps to any fight, exceptions being needing some condi DPS in vale guardian or bosses like cairn where confusion gets extra value.

 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There is zero actual reward for playing a harder spec in this game which is why typically people opting for the masochism of playing a "hard rotation" are content creators and people out to set a point they can do it (i.e. people that are ele mains).

I'll send you a chocolate chip cookie in game.
 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

P.S. Catalyst wasn't 47K prepatch, it was more along the lines of 45K (46.2K "max")

For your viewing pleasure.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

5 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Yes because catalyst isn't as bursty as some other power builds, what a shocker that in a fight where burst is king, catalyst could still outdps a burst spec and you think that's not a problem.

 

Wasn't hard at all, just required reading comprehension

 

We're discussing DPS balance, but sure, dps uptime is a factor, but so is cleave, cata has infinitely more cleave than power virtuoso. Not every class and build has to perform at the same level in every encounter. For instance power weaver is better than power cata for fractals as well because it his burstier.

 

There are very few actual condi fights anymore after the changes to balance and class specific buffs. A boss is considered power boss if it has phases and/or has lower than the default amount of armor, other than that, so long as you are able to play a given power or condi build at the same level, you can bring power dps to any fight, exceptions being needing some condi DPS in vale guardian or bosses like cairn where confusion gets extra value.

 

I'll send you a chocolate chip cookie in game.

Because it was a casual group, it wasn't a speedclear so I would not call it a burst window by any stretch of the imagination. Had a harbinger and a DH barely above alacrity provide IIRC.

Since hammer orbs no longer do any appreciable damage and air/fire auto do not do any cleave whatsoever (single target) catalyst lost much of its cleave unless you consider the weak water auto and slow earth auto to be cleave. Jade sphere is on 15s cooldown now , hurricane of pain with its massive cast time is 3 targets, so is rain of blows.

Meanwhile the entirely of virtuoso dagger and greatsword other than auto is more or less 5 targets.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Meanwhile the entirely of virtuoso dagger and greatsword other than auto is more or less 5 targets.

The highest damage of virtuoso comes from the blades after phantasms, which are single target, I can safely tell you that catalyst still has a lot more cleave than pvirt, it is in numbers, I'm not sure how this is a discussion.

[Infusion.7149]

4 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

The highest damage of virtuoso comes from the blades after phantasms, which are single target, I can safely tell you that catalyst still has a lot more cleave than pvirt, it is in numbers, I'm not sure how this is a discussion.

You're making outlandish claims such as "infinitely more cleave" and your followup is "trust me it is in the numbers". On the contrary the hammer orbs have 0.001 coefficient now.

[Celano.8492]

Amongst all melee classes catalyst is the most complicated, inconvenient, lacking any QOL, weakest, totally useless almost in any modes except for PvP and there it is just a bit useful. The amount of time, build strategy and brain you have to invest into this class to get what anyone else can get on any other class in a matter of hours. That's all there is to ELEMENTALIST in general and especially when it comes to Catalyst. Nothing else to be said. As long as arenanet does not address this issue properly will always keep complaining about this class and that will be absolutely fair. I main Catalyst and in general ele for over 900 hours only because I am a die hard fan of Mage class my whole life in any MMO. Other than that, when I need efficiency I switch to warrior, necro etc.

 

P.S. you can give it 55k benchmark and it is still going to be trash because the Catalyst is in need of rework and overhaul just like they did with FB for example or Ranger etc etc.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Celano.8492

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

3 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Maybe, just maybe, you aren't supposed to?

reminder: NO FUN ALLOWED

didnt read anything else lol

[the krytan assassin.9235]

5 hours ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

There are quite a few but as you can imagine, I won't be going around collecting samples, still should be easy for you to find. 
You keep overplaying the complexity of catalyst, it has a fairly simple rotation logic behind it, once you get the hang of the instant cast spells and not interrupting weapon 2 on water-air-earth, the rotation is fairly simple, again proven by the fact that I was about to do 35k on it post nerf without any prior catalyst gameplay, not because 35k is impressive, but because it is higher than most people ever hit after playing a class for months. I'm sorry to say this but if catalyst feels impossible to play to you, you aren't doing it right, either your keybindings make simultaneous keystrokes difficult, or you lack the coordination or muscle memory to do so, or more realistically, you just aren't willing to admit that catalyst rotation isn't that difficult to do alright with.
Now, if we're arguing about doing high end damage being difficult, that is the case with most builds.

Lololol what is this? Some sort of self appreciation post while calling evry1 else out for being a big noob? F off. 

 

You've played 2 hrs on your cata benching on a Golem, guess you're the expert now. Try to keep up the rotations in actual encounters and we can talk again. I wonder why ive barely seen any catalyst around post nerf if its such an easy build anyways... Hmmm.. 

 

The simple truth is that there far are easier builds out there that provide just as much (or even more) dps in most encounters when compared to cata (and often give more utility). 

Sure i can get on board with the idea that dps builds shouldn't deal over 40k. Still aslong as Anet refuses to give any QoL upgrades to cata and rewards some easy builds with 38-40k dps and decent utility there's no need to bring the an unreliable glass cannon pure dps very low utility build to that same level. 

 

[Passerbye.6291]

1 hour ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Lololol what is this? Some sort of self appreciation post while calling evry1 else out for being a big noob? F off. 

Ah yes, personal attacks now that you're out of arguments, beautiful. But hey, I'll bite, I never called myself good, called myself average to clarify that very fact as well, the problem is that you're simply bad if you think cata is impossibly hard and you need to play a different build if efficient dps is what you're looking for.

 

1 hour ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

Sure i can get on board with the idea that dps builds shouldn't deal over 40k.

Let's be consistent with numbers here, the build is benching 42k after nerfs, arguments are being made here against its previous damage of 47.6k here, and no there simply weren't far easier classes with more damage if you played it right in most encounters, thankfully, after the well deserved nerf, it isn't the go to DPS for every single encounter anymore, which it shouldn't be.

 

1 hour ago, the krytan assassin.9235 said:

there's no need to bring the an unreliable glass cannon pure dps very low utility build to that same level

You go ahead and ask for utility then my friend, not complain in a "hefty nerf" thread when most classes dream of a 42k bench.

 

2 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

reminder: NO FUN ALLOWED

didnt read anything else lol

Didn't want to get into this but the current bench has an average of 9.4 EE stacks, keeping up 10 stacks for the majority of the bench, the bench with earth elemental brings it to 9.7 iirc.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Ah yes, personal attacks now that you're out of arguments, beautiful. But hey, I'll bite, I never called myself good, called myself average to clarify that very fact as well, the problem is that you're simply bad if you think cata is impossibly hard and you need to play a different build if efficient dps is what you're looking for.

 

Let's be consistent with numbers here, the build is benching 42k after nerfs, arguments are being made here against its previous damage of 47.6k here, and no there simply weren't far easier classes with more damage if you played it right in most encounters, thankfully, after the well deserved nerf, it isn't the go to DPS for every single encounter anymore, which it shouldn't be.

 

You go ahead and ask for utility then my friend, not complain in a "hefty nerf" thread when most classes dream of a 42k bench.

 

Didn't want to get into this but the current bench has an average of 9.4 EE stacks, keeping up 10 stacks for the majority of the bench, the bench with earth elemental brings it to 9.7 iirc.

You spelled mechanist wrong.

[Passerbye.6291]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You spelled mechanist wrong.

As fun a meme as Mechanist was with its easy to play 38k benching dps, it is nowhere near close to being the go to pick in most encounters anymore after nerfs (which it deserved). It is an all around great easy build, making endgame accessible to all manner of players now. That being said, you shouldn't be getter outdpsed by mechanists in most encounters anymore. If you are, you have a decision to make, you either stay with ele and play it because you like it and try to improve your gameplay if you care about damage, or simply play something else if you were playing it for damage and are currently unable to do well with it.

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

As fun a meme as Mechanist was with its easy to play 38k benching dps, it is nowhere near close to being the go to pick in most encounters anymore after nerfs (which it deserved). It is an all around great easy build, making endgame accessible to all manner of players now. That being said, you shouldn't be getter outdpsed by mechanists in most encounters anymore. If you are, you have a decision to make, you either stay with ele and play it because you like it and try to improve your gameplay if you care about damage, or simply play something else if you were playing it for damage and are currently unable to do well with it.

Maybe you don't pay attention to balance patches. The same patch that bug fixed the mechanical genius nerf also nerfed the catalyst hammer orbs.

[Passerbye.6291]

Just now, Infusion.7149 said:

Maybe you don't pay attention to balance patches. The same patch that bug fixed the mechanical genius nerf also nerfed the catalyst hammer orbs.

Yes, it benches over 42k atm, should bench 43 if you use earth ele instead of FG, much more damage than power mechanist currently can.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

Yes, it benches over 42k atm, should bench 43 if you use earth ele instead of FG, much more damage than power mechanist currently can.

They said they aren't balancing based off benchmarks anymore but realistic performance. In addition, you state it is the best DPS in almost every encounter when condi catalyst has been sort of meme since EoD launch.

To top it off wingman logs have ~2-3% representation of catalyst. So what is more likely, the entirety of wingman is wrong in picking specs or your opinion doesn't reflect reality?

[Passerbye.6291]

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They said they aren't balancing based off benchmarks anymore but realistic performance. In addition, you state it is the best DPS in almost every encounter when condi catalyst has been sort of meme since EoD launch.

To top it off wingman logs have ~2-3% representation of catalyst. So what is more likely, the entirety of wingman is wrong in picking specs or your opinion doesn't reflect reality?

Balancing around play rate alone is entirely pointless but again, you keep arguing random substrata of information that supports your view, simple fact is catalyst did deserve that nerf and no class, under any circumstances, deserves 47.6k dps bench.
 

6 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

In addition, you state it is the best DPS in almost every encounter when condi catalyst has been sort of meme since EoD launch.

Yeah because power harbinger is doing 40k damage, condi chrono is shattering benchmarks and dps druid is everyone's favourite. See what I did there? Not every elite has a good power and condi damage mate. Elementalist currently has multiple builds benching over 40k.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

3 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

Balancing around play rate alone is entirely pointless but again, you keep arguing random substrata of information that supports your view, simple fact is catalyst did deserve that nerf and no class, under any circumstances, deserves 47.6k damage.
 

Yeah because power harbinger is doing 40k damage, condi chrono is shattering benchmarks and dps druid is everyone's favourite. See what I did there? Not every elite has a good power and condi damage mate. Elementalist currently has multiple builds benching over 40k.

The difference is harbinger is designed around condi, chrono is a support spec , and druid is a support as well.

Your idea is that it is so incredibly strong everyone is playing catalyst which is why I brought play rate up. "Go to DPS" implies everyone can pick it up when you yourself state that isn't the case.

P.S. I never said "Catalyst deserves 47K DPS" nice dodging the topic. Meanwhile in your reply above to krytan assassin you wrote "no there simply weren't far easier classes with more damage " which implies you tunnel visioned on benchmarks again.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Passerbye.6291]

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Your idea is that it is so incredibly strong everyone is playing catalyst which is why I brought play rate up. "Go to DPS" implies everyone can pick it up when you yourself state that isn't the case.

"Go to dps" meaning it was the go to choice for highest dps, but nice try. 

 

9 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The difference is harbinger is designed around condi, chrono is a support spec , and druid is a support as well.

Oh right my bad, Condi DH is doing great, you're right. Oh wait...

Edited December 23, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Passerbye.6291 said:

"Go to dps" meaning it is the go to choice for dps, but nice try. 

 

Oh right my bad, Condi DH is doing great, you're right. Oh wait...

DH doesn't have a single condi trait or utility.

[Passerbye.6291]

30 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

DH doesn't have a single condi trait or utility.

F1 by default applies burning, it should be a condi spec, right? RIGHT GUYS? Using your own logic here mate.

Catalyst doesn't have a single condi specific skill or trait either btw iirc, not 100% sure since I don't play the class.

Meanwhile harbinger has a traitline for strike damage and yet power harb remains a meme.

33 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

"no there simply weren't far easier classes with more damage " which implies you tunnel visioned on benchmarks again.

Imagine calling facts tunnel vision.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Passerbye.6291

[Infusion.7149]

40 minutes ago, Passerbye.6291 said:

F1 by default applies burning, it should be a condi spec, right? RIGHT GUYS? Using your own logic here mate.

Catalyst doesn't have a single condi specific skill or trait either btw iirc, not 100% sure since I don't play the class.

Meanwhile harbinger has a traitline for strike damage and yet power harb remains a meme.

Imagine calling facts tunnel vision.

There's a power quickness harbinger and you aren't going to be running DH over firebrand in general short of KC/VG.  I stated that condi catalyst never was a strong spec, whereas you claimed it is the strongest DPS for almost every encounter. That implies that it is even strong when there is motion are need to range. Explain to me how you do a pylon on catalyst.

The facts are the playrate of catalyst is low because players don't want to jump through multiple hoops to do the same damage with nothing to show for it. This game's community has repeated complained whenever anything was remotely difficult which is why chrono quickness turned into firebrand quickness , why chrono alac turned into alacrity with single buttons and now "afk alac" mechs.

You're probably the only person I've ever seen in the history of this game calling catalyst easy. Not even the benchmarkers say it is easy.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[WolfinTD.3904]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There's a power quickness harbinger and you aren't going to be running DH over firebrand in general short of KC/VG.  I stated that condi catalyst never was a strong spec, whereas you claimed it is the strongest DPS for almost every encounter. That implies that it is even strong when there is motion are need to range. Explain to me how you do a pylon on catalyst.

The facts are the playrate of catalyst is low because players don't want to jump through multiple hoops to do the same damage with nothing to show for it. This game's community has repeated complained whenever anything was remotely difficult which is why chrono quickness turned into firebrand quickness , why chrono alac turned into alacrity with single buttons and now "afk alac" mechs.

You're probably the only person I've ever seen in the history of this game calling catalyst easy. Not even the benchmarkers say it is easy.

ele main here, yeah catalyst is easy. most classes in the game will be difficult if you're expecting amazing DPS off of not much practice and experience. difficulty in catalyst doesn't come from the tight and high pace rotation, it comes from adapting to mechanics in fights. you could lose earth auto time and not have enough energy for the next loop, you could be forced to go away from the boss while you're in water and not be able to use water 4, 5 and 2, you could mess up somehow and use grand finale when you're not supposed to (does happen sometimes). but the thing is, it's always possible to adapt to these situations. once you go through them a few times, it becomes easy to deal with. 

i'll say it with confidence, if you feel catalyst isn't worth it for you then you're better off playing something else that works well for you. no shame in it, everyone has a kind of gameplay that vibes well with them. but the simple fact is, if anet makes it so average players can do 42k DPS without tryharding at all, then the best players and benchmarkers would end up getting a 55k bench. you're not gonna say 55k is a healthy bench for any class in the game, right?
 

dunno why you're talking about pylon catalyst when no one else ever mentioned it. "with nothing to show for it" is simply not true. if you play catalyst well you will be 1st or 2nd on the DPS charts every single time. if you're getting the same damage as other classes with lower benches, maybe you're the one who's not doing well enough with your rotation 😄 "This game's community has repeated complained whenever anything was remotely difficult which is why chrono quickness turned into firebrand quickness , why chrono alac turned into alacrity with single buttons and now "afk alac" mechs." does this mean you want catalyst to go the same route? do you want there to be an LI catalyst build that benches high too? don't understand why else you're bringing this up at all. catalyst is the one ele elite spec where you're pretty much required to cycle through every attunement once per loop (if you're using hammer ofc), obviously it's gonna be called more complex than other builds kitten.
 

fact is, you're not gonna accept anecdotal evidence from anyone. neither from someone with 2 hours of benchmark practice and a higher bench than you for it, nor from someone who says they're an ele main and that it's easy. unfortunately i don't record my raid runs so i can't show you evidence either. boo-hoo for me i guess
 

PS: you can at least look at my 40k bench on my kp.me, if that means anything to you. there's a million mistakes and bad casts in that bench rotation but i still get 40 thousand damage per second 😄

Edited December 23, 2022 by WolfinTD.3904

[Infusion.7149]

30 minutes ago, WolfinTD.3904 said:

ele main here, yeah catalyst is easy. most classes in the game will be difficult if you're expecting amazing DPS off of not much practice and experience. difficulty in catalyst doesn't come from the tight and high pace rotation, it comes from adapting to mechanics in fights. you could lose earth auto time and not have enough energy for the next loop, you could be forced to go away from the boss while you're in water and not be able to use water 4, 5 and 2, you could mess up somehow and use grand finale when you're not supposed to (does happen sometimes). but the thing is, it's always possible to adapt to these situations. once you go through them a few times, it becomes easy to deal with. 

i'll say it with confidence, if you feel catalyst isn't worth it for you then you're better off playing something else that works well for you. no shame in it, everyone has a kind of gameplay that vibes well with them. but the simple fact is, if anet makes it so average players can do 42k DPS without tryharding at all, then the best players and benchmarkers would end up getting a 55k bench. you're not gonna say 55k is a healthy bench for any class in the game, right?
 

dunno why you're talking about pylon catalyst when no one else ever mentioned it. "with nothing to show for it" is simply not true. if you play catalyst well you will be 1st or 2nd on the DPS charts every single time. if you're getting the same damage as other classes with lower benches, maybe you're the one who's not doing well enough with your rotation 😄 "This game's community has repeated complained whenever anything was remotely difficult which is why chrono quickness turned into firebrand quickness , why chrono alac turned into alacrity with single buttons and now "afk alac" mechs." does this mean you want catalyst to go the same route? do you want there to be an LI catalyst build that benches high too? don't understand why else you're bringing this up at all. catalyst is the one ele elite spec where you're pretty much required to cycle through every attunement once per loop (if you're using hammer ofc), obviously it's gonna be called more complex than other builds kitten.
 

fact is, you're not gonna accept anecdotal evidence from anyone. neither from someone with 2 hours of benchmark practice and a higher bench than you for it, nor from someone who says they're an ele main and that it's easy. unfortunately i don't record my raid runs so i can't show you evidence either. boo-hoo for me i guess
 

PS: you can at least look at my 40k bench on my kp.me, if that means anything to you. there's a million mistakes and bad casts in that bench rotation but i still get 40 thousand damage per second 😄

I stopped playing catalyst after the first set of nerfs because it was 55K bench on paper standing in the hitbox and realistically it wasn't doing that (more like 40K if there wasn't projectile destruction or dropping of orbs). It was already annoying in beta. The point is if every time an ele spec gets even the remotest of buffs and nerfed right after there really isn't a point to playing it. Meanwhile something like firebrand I can play even better after so-called nerfs because I hated camping in a tome when needing reflect or a cleanse.

There's still so many things that haven't been fixed since betas such as the energy mechanic or EE stacks. I remember asking for a pulsing AoE on hammer orbs instead of projectiles and I am sure other people did too, also I stated hammer orbs shouldn't do damage at all if it is to be accessible. Of course, Arenanet didn't revert water auto or add any cleave to air/fire when they changed the orbs. That's why catalyst is meta in PVP (hammer orbs are 0.15 coefficient) and not in PVE where they are 0.01 (down from 0.1 each).

edit: and the I'm pretty sure I was one of those that suggested implementing Soulcleave's 1s interval time onto One Wolf Pack (Arenanet didn't like the  combined burst of Soulcleave and OWP in 0.25s interval), this was also suggested for Shattering Ice and implemented in March.

Nowhere did I state I expect 42K from an easy mode catalyst. The fact is 600 range is more or less melee (as I stated in the beta feedback) so realistically it is far weaker on anything needing you to be mobile not just when the target moves a little off the AOEs such as jade sphere , glyph of storms, fiery greatsword, or lightning hammer.

The whole spec was built like a Rube Goldberg machine.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[soulknight.9620]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I stopped playing catalyst after the first set of nerfs because it was 55K bench on paper standing in the hitbox and realistically it wasn't doing that (more like 40K if there wasn't projectile destruction or dropping of orbs)

So let me get this right. You stopped playing cata since july, you are not an ele main, you have little actuall experience in catalyst since july, you didnt played it when it was buffed and try to prove to people that have been (and still are) playing cata and other ele specs that their perception of the gameplay and current state of the abovementioned specs is wrong? Im sorry, but that doesnt help the credibility of your opinion. 

I also cant get it why you try to push an AA buff on cata (esp water one, which is not used at all in any decent rotation) when all of cata skills are perfectly alligned to be used in a rotation without the need of AA (mb except earth one while waiting for energy to fill up). Ele has never been the AA class. Some rotations use a chain or two of AA to fill in the gaps before swapping attunements, but thats it. 

 

Back to the topic. The only places where catalyst performs worse that said weaver or other classes atm is burst heavy encounters like fraenir for example where boss just phases too much. Although if you adjust ur rotation a bit, you can still dish up some decent burst dps.

People tend to play other classes and specs because they are safer and allow more slack, not because cata underperforms. Its a players choice of gameplay - some like it easier and safer, others prefer getting more risk/reward by playing glass cannons.

Although i do think that cata deserves its dps lowered even further, but improving its utility capabilities alongside. I dont think that every elite spec should perform the same in every aspect of the game since that would make it extreemly dull. Choosing elite spec should be a tradeoff by default. You should be considering what elite spec to bring to a fight not based on "oh i like to camp fire and push fire OL, so ill just bring tempest and do same dps as a weaver", but rather on "ok, what do i need here, more defensive supportish build (tempest) with lower dps, offensive support build (cata) with average dps, or should i go full glass dps on weaver with no support since my team will cover that".  Thats the design of elite specs that i want to see. Tradeoffs and specialising your playstyle. And tbh cata is still overperforming by that standart since you get more dps than weaver, more stats (including defensive) than weaver, more buffs (yes yes the hammer 3 sphere bonuses do matter) and boons than weaver, more access to healing and sustain mechnics (earth 4 block, water 4, and blasting fields with no tradeoffs, condi cleanse with water 5). 

I know most of you guys will hate me here for this, but in my ideal world this would be a thing:

Tempest - good support (heals, boons, alac), but if a person wants to invest into dps the max dps he can go for would be 32-35k dps.

Catalyst - good offensive support (boons, aegis, quickness, medium dps), but if you invest in full dps the max amount would be 35-38k dps.

Weaver - dps (no support/limited support, biiiig dps), if you invest into dps you get 38-42k dps. 

 

And i dont think that dps would be a problem for these specs, since for example people tend to play scourge with 35k dps now and still be a desirable pick in any top content for its utility potential. There has been a new thing going on in pug groups like alac condi tempest that does less dps than say mirage, but it bring a lot more utility to the table, that people are starting to use more. 

 

[Celano.8492]

Pretty much no one plays Catalyst as it is, nerfing it even more will bring down even more. They definitely have logs and numbers and they can see how little people play Ele in general and catalyst in particular. I am main catalyst and I can easily be the only catalyst in any 50 men squad in open world, prior to so called "buff" to catalyst I was often asked to switch hero in raids, strikes etc simply because my damage was not reliable/good enough as well as my utility was nothing useful which would happen even before raid/strike started. You all talking numbers 42k 47k 55k 38k but you don't get the simple truth that it is extremely difficult to bring that to the table in real encounters. And the fact that it is possible in certain situations does not mean that it must be nerfed even more. The only way I see catalyst being nerfed is making it do more realiable damage which is downright impossible with the way elementalist is designed in general. Therefore the only way to make it somewhat playable is either give it bigger Possible DPS and I mean possible because not always will anyone be able to pull it off, either somehow redesign it so it becomes way more reliable. Also, why the hell would anyone play a spec that does exactly the same like anyone else with only difference being that with Ele you have to sweat like crazy and watch out for any random whiff of the wind when you can play literally anything else, sweat way less and do as a result way better because your damage and performance in general does not depend on luck and random whiffs of the wind??? The logic must be that if it is hard to play it must be likewise rewarding. Anet were talking about this in their Balance philosophy article and stream a couple of months ago!