Lessons From the Meta [PvP/WvW]

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

@Cal Cohen.2358

Spellbreaker is awesome right now.  Everything else sucks (or is at least really niche).  I do think, however, that there are a few things that can be learned from the current success of Spellbreaker and previous success of Shoutsworn.  These lessons should inform further balance decisions regarding the rest of Warrior.

 

1.) They both benefited from big-time sustain.
In Bladesworn's case, that was just ridiculous healing numbers from combat stimulant + shouts + tactical reload.  Once TR was nerfed, BS's viability dropped off hard.  In Spellbreaker's case, they derive great sustain from FC itself + its relative ease of maximizing the value from the Defense traits, especially adrenal healing and cleansing ire (it does this by FC being an unblockable AOE that refreshes bursts, allowing hit with bursts reliably and frequently).  SpB is able to get maximum value from Defense in ways that no other warrior spec can match. 

 

 2.) They both have answers to blinds and blocks.

Bladesworn did this via Unyielding Dragon; it's worth noting, however, that it was still very vulnerable to weakness and immobilize, even in its heyday.  Spellbreaker, on the other hand, has high resistance up-time thanks to Revenge Counter +/- Resilient Roll.  Additionally, FC and Breaching Strike are low-CD unblockables.

 

3.) They both had access to on-demand stability when using their main mechanic.

BS had it on Dragonscale Defense; SpB has it on FC.  Loss of stability on DSD was another main contributor to BS's demise in competitive modes.

 

Currently, only SpB is actually employing all 3 of these points--and to great effect.  I believe that providing ways for other Warrior specs to achieve these aims will be key to making the rest of Warrior viable.  Here are some suggestions for improvement:

 

Triggerguard: grants Aegis and Stability,  CD 40s.

Having Stab with every single DT use was pretty annoying to play against.  But not having any stab readily available makes DT nearly unusable in many situations.  A compromise would be to make Triggerguard provide this and to make it more readily available. 

 

Flow Stabilizer: Grants Stability (1 stack for 4s) and Fury (8s)

Same as above.  BS needs both Fury and Stab, and this utility sees almost 0 use in competitive modes.  Seems like a match made in heaven.

 

Berserk Mode: Grants Resistance (3s) and Stability (2 stacks for 3s) on use.

Allows Berserker a "protected window" do make use of it's main mechanic.

 

Bloody Roar: +10% dmg in Berserk Mode; gain 2s resistance when you activate a Primal Rage Skill

Similar to the above; the main point of Berserker is to use its primal rage skills.  Allowing it to do so reliably (i.e., without being shut down by blind, weakness, or immobilize) will greatly improve its viability.

 

Dead or Alive: Heal for +1800 hp when you enter Berserk Mode and gain Lesser Blood Reckoning for 4s.  

This is a total nothingburger currently.  Giving it a bit of a base heal and longer duration will help a bit.

 

Eternal Champion:  Gain +300 toughness while in Berserk Mode.  Rage skills grant protection (3s) and cleanse 2 conditions on use.

This simultaneously makes a bad trait good and provides a massive upgrade to Rage skills (which generally suck).  Outrage could then compete with Shake It Off, Blood Reckoning becomes more viable, etc.

 

Berserker Stance: Grants pulsing Resistance (1s per pulse) for 4s.  Cleanse one condition per pulse; gain 10 adrenaline for each condition cleansed in this way.  CD 30s.

Warrior as a whole badly needs Resistance, especially on-demand resistance.  Updating this skill (which is currently woefully underpowered) would be a great way to do that.  It also provides an alternative to Shake It Off for condi cleanse (at the expense of the stunbreak) and provides a reliable source of adrenaline (very valuable for Berserker trying to get into Berserk Mode or BS trying to maximize flow quickly).    It's worth noting that Warrior ideally needs multiple sources of resistance; otherwise taking Defense and Resilient Roll becomes almost mandatory, and that greatly limits build diversity.  Changing Berserker Stance provides a solution for all Warrior builds.  It also makes Last Stand more appealing since you would have a low-CD stance to help maximize the benefits of the trait.

 

Heightened Focus:  Burst Attacks are unblockable.

Rehabs a worthless trait and provides a source of unblockables to all warrior specs.  If this is too strong, add a 5s CD to it.

 

Adrenal Healing: Grants 1 stack on burst use and an additional stack per bar of adrenaline if the burst hits.
Cleansing Ire: Cleanses 1 condition on burst use and an additional condition per bar of adrenaline if the burst hits.
Both changes are aimed at helping non-SpB specs maximize the value of Defense without further buffing Spellbreaker.

 

Thanks for considering it!

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364
Typo

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

 

Triggerguard: grants Aegis and Stability,  CD 40s.

Having Stab with every single DT use was pretty annoying to play against.  But not having any stab readily available makes DT nearly unusable in many situations.  A compromise would be to make Triggerguard provide this and to make it more readily available. 

 

Flow Stabilizer: Grants Stability (1 stack for 4s) and Fury (8s)

Same as above.  BS needs both Fury and Stab, and this utility sees almost 0 use in competitive modes.  Seems like a match made in heaven.

The loss of stability was too much for BSW. Giving it to these two sources is apprpriate.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Berserk Mode: Grants Resistance (3s) and Stability (2 stacks for 3s) on use.

Allows Berserker a "protected window" do make use of it's main mechanic.

Baseline or via a trait? Might be too much if baseline, especially together.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Bloody Roar: +10% dmg in Berserk Mode; gain 2s resistance when you activate a Primal Rage Skill

Similar to the above; the main point of Berserker is to use its primal rage skills.  Allowing it to do so reliably (i.e., without being shut down by blind, weakness, or immobilize) will greatly improve its viability.

The 2s of Resistance on Primal Burst use would work but would need a 4s CD at least. That isn't something that you would want to happen back-to-back.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Dead or Alive: Heal for +1800 hp when you enter Berserk Mode and gain Lesser Blood Reckoning for 4s.  

This is a total nothingburger currently.  Giving it a bit of a base heal and longer duration will help a bit.

The small heal may be enough without the extra duration. If you are entering Berserk, then you are using a Primal Burst, so that 2s base duration can be enough to full heal yourself. The small base heal would make it less feast/famine though.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Eternal Champion:  Gain +300 toughness while in Berserk Mode.  Rage skills grant protection (3s) and cleanse 2 conditions on use.

This simultaneously makes a bad trait good and provides a massive upgrade to Rage skills (which generally suck).  Outrage could then compete with Shake It Off, Blood Reckoning becomes more viable, etc.

Resolution may be more fitting here than protection considering that it already grants 300 toughness when in berserk. Either boon paired with the cleanses may be too much in one trait. This is the sort of thing that is better spread across multiple traits. I.E. Last Blaze: Purge conditions from yourself and burn nearby foes. Eternal Champion: Gain 300 toughness in Berserk Mode, gain Protection (3s) when using a Primal Burst.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Berserker Stance: Grants pulsing Resistance (1s per pulse) for 4s.  Cleanse one condition per pulse; gain 10 adrenaline for each condition cleansed in this way.  CD 30s.

Warrior as a whole badly needs Resistance, especially on-demand resistance.  Updating this skill (which is currently woefully underpowered) would be a great way to do that.  It also provides an alternative to Shake It Off for condi cleanse (at the expense of the stunbreak) and provides a reliable source of adrenaline (very valuable for Berserker trying to get into Berserk Mode or BS trying to maximize flow quickly).    It's worth noting that Warrior ideally needs multiple sources of resistance; otherwise taking Defense and Resilient Roll becomes almost mandatory, and that greatly limits build diversity.  Changing Berserker Stance provides a solution for all Warrior builds.  It also makes Last Stand more appealing since you would have a low-CD stance to help maximize the benefits of the trait.

I like this one.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Heightened Focus:  Burst Attacks are unblockable.

Rehabs a worthless trait and provides a source of unblockables to all warrior specs.  If this is too strong, add a 5s CD to it.

It might be too strong, and then what do you do for the few that are already unblockable? Unyielding Dragon? Maybe a better option is to raise the HP threshold of Signet Mastery to 75% HP for more accessible Unblockable stacks and move that into Discipline.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Adrenal Healing: Grants 1 stack on burst use and an additional stack per bar of adrenaline if the burst hits.
Cleansing Ire: Cleanses 1 condition on burst use and an additional condition per bar of adrenaline if the burst hits.
Both changes are aimed at helping non-SpB specs maximize the value of Defense without further buffing Spellbreaker.

 

I think all defensive burst related traits should be on use, so you have my vote.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Baseline or via a trait? Might be too much if baseline, especially together.

Baseline.  Maybe it would be too much if all my other changes were similarly approved, but I kinda doubt it.  In any event, having something strong baked into Berserk mode helps make it more on par with something like FC--which, as we have seen, seems more or less necessary for Warrior to be successful.  Could always reduce the boon duration (e.g. 2s), too.

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The 2s of Resistance on Primal Burst use would work but would need a 4s CD at least. That isn't something that you would want to happen back-to-back.

Resilient roll has no CD (and shouldn't have one); why should this? Could always reduce the Resistance duration to 1.5s if it became problematic.  Berserker already has the trade off of having most of its value locked behind berserk mode, so I think it is important that it be able to capitalize on it while B mode lasts.

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The small heal may be enough without the extra duration. If you are entering Berserk, then you are using a Primal Burst, so that 2s base duration can be enough to full heal yourself. The small base heal would make it less feast/famine though.

In PvE, sure it can.  It'd be very rare to get much healing from it in competitive (except maybe in a Zerg situation).  Good players know to kite you once you enter berserk mode; hence, no healing gained.  The guaranteed heal will certainly help, but lengthening the BR duration will give you more of an opportunity to actually make use of it.

Again, you can always tone it down, but Berserker is so sadly underperforming right now that I think it would be better to be generous up front.  Besides, you'd be giving up Blood reaction or Heat the Soul to take this, so there is significant opportunity cost.

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Resolution may be more fitting here than protection considering that it already grants 300 toughness when in berserk. Either boon paired with the cleanses may be too much in one trait. This is the sort of thing that is better spread across multiple traits. I.E. Last Blaze: Purge conditions from yourself and burn nearby foes. Eternal Champion: Gain 300 toughness in Berserk Mode, gain Protection (3s) when using a Primal Burst.

I think protection would make more sense; pairing cleanses with resolution is sure to lose value.  Moreover, I don't think this would be too much.  Compare it to Ranger's Wilderness Knowledge and Companion's Defense traits.  Could always prune the +toughness in berserk mode part if needed, but making an sizable upgrade to the Rage skills (including Berserk) would go a long way towards making them viable/impactful. 

 

Spreading out the benefits would make it significantly less valuable/less likely that you could make use of the skills.  For instance, why would anyone running a power build want to take Last Blaze? You'd almost certainly want Savage Instinct or Smash Brawler.  I think it makes more sense to keep the sustain-related benefits on the sustain-related traits.  Moreover, as noted previously, you give up a lot of offense to take these (notably picking EC over Blood Roar), which is a major trade-off as it is.  I think it's ok to make the defense really good to compensate.

 

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

It might be too strong, and then what do you do for the few that are already unblockable? Unyielding Dragon? Maybe a better option is to raise the HP threshold of Signet Mastery to 75% HP for more accessible Unblockable stacks and move that into Discipline.

That'd be another way to do it, for sure.  I think we might be further robbing Arms of what little good there is in it, though.  

I don't see it as an issue that some bursts are already unblockable.  Spellbreaker probably wouldn't take it in most cases, and that's fine.  I'm specifically trying to buff things that are NOT SpB.  

 

As for BS, having a way to make DS unblockable outside of Unyielding Dragon would potentially make Daring Dragon and Immortal Dragon more compelling choices.  That's precisely my hope.  

Edited December 15, 2022 by CalmTheStorm.2364

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

I'll reply in more detail later, but Resilient Roll not having a CD is different than no CD resistance on Primal Bursts.

Primals have a much shorter CD, can be recharged with blood reckoning, and in the case of Decapitation, be spammed quickly. Dodges can be frequent, but requires taking Strength and MMR.

With boon duration investment you'd have high uptime, especially with your suggestion of resistance baked into berserk mode. But that requires a stat investment to balance it.

You don't want to create something completely immune to non damaging conditions, just one highly resilient to them.

 

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'll reply in more detail later, but Resilient Roll not having a CD is different than no CD resistance on Primal Bursts.

Primals have a much shorter CD, can be recharged with blood reckoning, and in the case of Decapitation, be spammed quickly. Dodges can be frequent, but requires taking Strength and MMR.

With boon duration investment you'd have high uptime, especially with your suggestion of resistance baked into berserk mode. But that requires a stat investment to balance it.

You don't want to create something completely immune to non damaging conditions, just one highly resilient to them.

 

I hear you, and I agree. However, the proposed changes would yield high resistance up time only in Berserk mode, with no access to it outside of B mode (unless you took resilient roll or Berserker stance, etc).

 

Even on Spellbreaker running revenge counter and resilient roll, you don't have perma resistance, and these Berserker changes would almost certainly be less than that. You could theoretically get perma resistance if you were spamming decapitate, but that's only realistic in PvE. You're never going to find someone who let's you land repeated decaps (and if they do, they've got bigger issues than you having perma resistance).

 

I do recognize that WvW could potentially require different numbers because of the possibility of boon duration, which is not really a thing in PvP. I suspect that the loss of dmg or durability from taking gear with concentration would be tradeoff enough, though.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I hear you, and I agree. However, the proposed changes would yield high resistance up time only in Berserk mode, with no access to it outside of B mode (unless you took resilient roll or Berserker stance, etc).

Now pair it with Resilient Roll and see what happens.

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Even on Spellbreaker running revenge counter and resilient roll, you don't have perma resistance, and these Berserker changes would almost certainly be less than that. You could theoretically get perma resistance if you were spamming decapitate, but that's only realistic in PvE. You're never going to find someone who let's you land repeated decaps (and if they do, they've got bigger issues than you having perma resistance).

True, but if we're going to meme out like that then there is going to be some Signet of Might and Signet Mastery shenanigans  afoot so now the two main counters to such spam are then countered themselves. See where I am going with this?

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I do recognize that WvW could potentially require different numbers because of the possibility of boon duration, which is not really a thing in PvP. I suspect that the loss of dmg or durability from taking gear with concentration would be tradeoff enough, though.

Of course. We do need to keep healthy tradeoffs and healthy counters into consideration, otherwise you'll end up with something that can't be blocked (SoM and LSoM spam), can't be blinded, can't be weakened, and can't be snared. And if you throw Defense in there and some CC you'll have something that also becomes difficult to be CC'd. Don't get me wrong I want Warrior and Berserker overall to be stronger, but not unstoppable. We don't want any spec or class to end up like that in competitive play.

I think healing on DorA on activate, cleanses via a trait on rage skills, and either protection or resolution added somewhere would be enough without tipping the scales to far.

But hey, that's my opinion and I'm okay with disagreeing on it. 

👍

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Now pair it with Resilient Roll and see what happens.

True, but if we're going to meme out like that then there is going to be some Signet of Might and Signet Mastery shenanigans  afoot so now the two main counters to such spam are then countered themselves. See where I am going with this?

Of course. We do need to keep healthy tradeoffs and healthy counters into consideration, otherwise you'll end up with something that can't be blocked (SoM and LSoM spam), can't be blinded, can't be weakened, and can't be snared. And if you throw Defense in there and some CC you'll have something that also becomes difficult to be CC'd. Don't get me wrong I want Warrior and Berserker overall to be stronger, but not unstoppable. We don't want any spec or class to end up like that in competitive play.

I think healing on DorA on activate, cleanses via a trait on rage skills, and either protection or resolution added somewhere would be enough without tipping the scales to far.

But hey, that's my opinion and I'm okay with disagreeing on it. 

👍

Oh, you're right.  That would be bad with a meme gunflame/mega burst build.  Gah, those builds hold Berserker back, man.  That's why they dropped the damage of Bloody Roar in the first place.  It will be hard for more "responsible" Berserker builds to be buffed with the tools they need without over-buffing the meme builds.  

 

I suppose a 4s CD on Bloody Roar resistance would be a fair compromise.

[Yasai.3549]

8 hours ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Berserker Stance: Grants pulsing Resistance (1s per pulse) for 4s.  Cleanse one condition per pulse; gain 10 adrenaline for each condition cleansed in this way.  CD 30s.

Warrior as a whole badly needs Resistance, especially on-demand resistance.  Updating this skill (which is currently woefully underpowered) would be a great way to do that.  It also provides an alternative to Shake It Off for condi cleanse (at the expense of the stunbreak) and provides a reliable source of adrenaline (very valuable for Berserker trying to get into Berserk Mode or BS trying to maximize flow quickly).    It's worth noting that Warrior ideally needs multiple sources of resistance; otherwise taking Defense and Resilient Roll becomes almost mandatory, and that greatly limits build diversity.  Changing Berserker Stance provides a solution for all Warrior builds.  It also makes Last Stand more appealing since you would have a low-CD stance to help maximize the benefits of the trait.

This please. 
Everytime I play my Warrior, I have the best fun until I meet some kitten Condi Class. Then I just switch characters. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Oh, you're right.  That would be bad with a meme gunflame/mega burst build.  Gah, those builds hold Berserker back, man.  That's why they dropped the damage of Bloody Roar in the first place.  It will be hard for more "responsible" Berserker builds to be buffed with the tools they need without over-buffing the meme builds.  

 

I suppose a 4s CD on Bloody Roar resistance would be a fair compromise.

Now you see. To be fair Gunflame is fine. It's an obvious setup that you can see coming, but that doesn't mean that it isn't strong.  Now with easy to achieve Resistance on Primal Burst? Then it becomes more difficult to counter. You can still roll Def/Str with it and dodge before the burst to get Resistance, but the burst will be lower, which is balanced.

Now a 4s CD on resistance gain on Primal Bursts is enough to ensure that back to back bursts with the same weapon (sans Decap and Blood Reckoning) can get the resistance, but not at a meme level. It would also have to be a 1s duration, enough to secure the  primal burst.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Now you see. To be fair Gunflame is fine. It's an obvious setup that you can see coming, but that doesn't mean that it isn't strong.  Now with easy to achieve Resistance on Primal Burst? Then it becomes more difficult to counter. You can still roll Def/Str with it and dodge before the burst to get Resistance, but the burst will be lower, which is balanced.

Now a 4s CD on resistance gain on Primal Bursts is enough to ensure that back to back bursts with the same weapon (sans Decap and Blood Reckoning) can get the resistance, but not at a meme level. It would also have to be a 1s duration, enough to secure the  primal burst.

I'd actually argue that Gunflame is the problem. And it's not alone: death's judgement and true shot also come to mind as big nukes that come from range (and possibly from stealth).  Getting deleted by 10k+ shots from 1500 range is never fun, regardless of who is doing it.

 

Thought experiment: would we be having this discussion of Gunflame did not exist? Sure you still run a meme set up with arc divider or decapitate, but that has to be much closer to the target and is much easier to punish and/or see it coming and dodge.

 

I'm not saying Gunflame shouldn't be a good skill, but its current form makes it hard to buff the rest of berserker to where it needs to be.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

39 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I'd actually argue that Gunflame is the problem. And it's not alone: death's judgement and true shot also come to mind as big nukes that come from range (and possibly from stealth).  Getting deleted by 10k+ shots from 1500 range is never fun, regardless of who is doing it.

While that last part is true, unlike the other two cases this isn't coming out of stealth and requires more resources to be used to pull off.

39 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Thought experiment: would we be having this discussion of Gunflame did not exist? Sure you still run a meme set up with arc divider or decapitate, but that has to be much closer to the target and is much easier to punish and/or see it coming and dodge.

Yes, we would. A safely secured back-to-back Arc Divider or Decapitate will wreck someone. But the same thing can be said about Arcing Slice -> FC -> Arcing Slice.

39 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I'm not saying Gunflame shouldn't be a good skill, but its current form makes it hard to buff the rest of berserker to where it needs to be.

I think what is limiting this more is Blood Reckoning recharging it for a follow up. Over in PvP you don't see it often, because of the obvious setup, and over in WvW the trailblazer/cele roamers have enough toughness and vitality to take the hit and counter. Its only when you get a glass vs. glass match that Gunflame does absurd numbers.

If the setup were not so obvious and resource intensive to pull off, I'd be 100% in agreement with you though.