Well of Action and Well of Senility are Useless

[Nezekan.2671]

I am primarily a Chronomancer player, if the avatar did not make it obvious lol. It's like my spirit class, so this is tested by me extensively. And I play it on every mode pretty much.

Here is the gist of it. These two wells are just useless no matter how you look at it. Their effects are underwhelming and even if you want to do alacrity you never have to take them. If you play Alacrity, you can run the heal well + well of calamity and well of precognition. I never thought I would say this, but well of Calamity is actually better than well of senility and action. It deals very impressive AoE damage now, and it has the shortest well cd, which is great for providing Alacrity. Most importantly, you do not need a 3rd well as you have enough alacrity source this way, so you have an extra utility slot to bring whatever you need. Gravity well is obviously fine too, but as an elite it doesn't really matter for this post.

And if you are not an Alacrity Chrono, there is absolutely no reason to run well of senility or action yet again. Precog for aegis and Calamity for damage are still much better options when needed, and dps and quickness builds will not use these two wells 99% of the time.

Well of senility and action just don't do anything right now. Low damage, delayed superspeed and delayed boonrip are not what Chrono needs. And the slow and chill effects last a very short time, and you are not gonna run expertise on Chrono. Besides, the cripple and weakness from Calamity lasts longer and more helpful. If superspeed becomes pulsed and longer duration, it would help. Chronomancer being able to provide permanent superspeed would be a refreshing change for a time based class, and removes monopoly form scrapper. Well of Senility could pulse boon removal (1 boon removed per pulse, total 3 pulses) and the ending could be a long chill. Or something else. The point of this post wasn't suggesting changes, just that well of senility and action currently have no real place in Chronomancer kit atm.

 

[Infusion.7149]

Superspeed on chrono was a terrible idea by Arenanet and even more so when it is delayed 3 seconds on a stationary well.

Well of Senility is underwhelming because the damage is poor in PvE and in competitive modes you need to wait 3 seconds for the boon rip. If it had damage on par with Well of Corruption on necromancers it might see use in PvE. 0.7 coefficient * 3 pulses is 2.1 coefficient meaning it appears to be balanced around Improved Alacrity cutting the cooldown in half.

[Nezekan.2671]

8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Superspeed on chrono was a terrible idea by Arenanet and even more so when it is delayed 3 seconds on a stationary well.

Well of Senility is underwhelming because the damage is poor in PvE and in competitive modes you need to wait 3 seconds for the boon rip. If it had damage on par with Well of Corruption on necromancers it might see use in PvE. 0.7 coefficient * 3 pulses is 2.1 coefficient meaning it appears to be balanced around Improved Alacrity cutting the cooldown in half.

I think well of action has an identity problem. The name and description are clearly about manipulating time, and it used to give quickness. The next thing that can fit was superspeed if not quickness. It can't give anything else worthwhile with it's current theme.

Senility can work, as you said. But not it's current form. Too weak even with improved alacrity. Calamity and Precog are just much better and the ONLY time you would take action or senility is if you somehow want all utility slots to be wells.

[draxynnic.3719]

I could see Fury working for Well of Action. Flavour is as your allies' perception of time being altered so that while they don't actually move any faster, they're better at landing their attacks right where they'll have the strongest effect.

Heck, even Vigor would probably work better than a superspeed that requires being stationary for three seconds in order to get it.

Maybe Senility/Recall could grant a boon extension to allies, representing time being slowed for the boons as well? Would step on Signet of Inspiration a bit, but the current version steps on Null Field, and one could probably find use cases for both options. Maybe rename it (again) to Well of Dilation.

[Mell.4873]

12 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

I am primarily a Chronomancer player, if the avatar did not make it obvious lol. It's like my spirit class, so this is tested by me extensively. And I play it on every mode pretty much.

Here is the gist of it. These two wells are just useless no matter how you look at it. Their effects are underwhelming and even if you want to do alacrity you never have to take them. If you play Alacrity, you can run the heal well + well of calamity and well of precognition. I never thought I would say this, but well of Calamity is actually better than well of senility and action. It deals very impressive AoE damage now, and it has the shortest well cd, which is great for providing Alacrity. Most importantly, you do not need a 3rd well as you have enough alacrity source this way, so you have an extra utility slot to bring whatever you need. Gravity well is obviously fine too, but as an elite it doesn't really matter for this post.

And if you are not an Alacrity Chrono, there is absolutely no reason to run well of senility or action yet again. Precog for aegis and Calamity for damage are still much better options when needed, and dps and quickness builds will not use these two wells 99% of the time.

Well of senility and action just don't do anything right now. Low damage, delayed superspeed and delayed boonrip are not what Chrono needs. And the slow and chill effects last a very short time, and you are not gonna run expertise on Chrono. Besides, the cripple and weakness from Calamity lasts longer and more helpful. If superspeed becomes pulsed and longer duration, it would help. Chronomancer being able to provide permanent superspeed would be a refreshing change for a time based class, and removes monopoly form scrapper. Well of Senility could pulse boon removal (1 boon removed per pulse, total 3 pulses) and the ending could be a long chill. Or something else. The point of this post wasn't suggesting changes, just that well of senility and action currently have no real place in Chronomancer kit atm.

 

I will agree after the Quickness and Alacrity nerf they never really got buffed, just a hard swap. 

Well of Action does have it uses due to Danger Time trait but Well of Senility is highly subjective to the content. 

Weirdly though I'm okay with it becouse you don't really use the Mirage Utilities as well. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Nezekan.2671]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I will agree after the Quickness and Alacrity nerf they never really got buffed, just a hard swap. 

Well of Action does have it uses due to Danger Time trait but Well of Senility is highly subjective to the content. 

Weirdly though I'm okay with it becouse you don't really use the Mirage Utilities as well. 

Danger time has become situational as well though. The 10% crit damage while under alacrity has become a serious contender for all Chrono builds, even pure DPS. From my own testing, Assassin gear with improved alacrity provides more damage than danger time with berserker gear. Not only you get all your cooldowns faster, your crits deal more damage. I say contender but it might actually be better than danger time in vast majority of cases now.

Improved alacrity is perfect now, but danger time and illusionary reversion kinda need buffs now. Little reason to take them.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Varis.5467]

What I don't get is why is it so hard for the balance team to understand the problem of the wells are that they require you to stay in a spot for some unrewarding 'extra' effects. 

 

It's not like they didn't know the wells were in need of reworks, but somehow they just think the issues were the effects alone and not the mechanics? 

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

Danger time has become situational as well though. The 10% crit damage while under alacrity has become a serious contender for all Chrono builds, even pure DPS. From my own testing, Assassin gear with improved alacrity provides more damage than danger time with berserker gear. Not only you get all your cooldowns faster, your crits deal more damage. I say contender but it might actually be better than danger time in vast majority of cases now.

Improved alacrity is perfect now, but danger time and illusionary reversion kinda need buffs now. Little reason to take them.

The further lowering cooldowns dont really help you under certain conditions. Most of the time when you need the extra slow durations will be open world or Fractals/Dungeons. It is then unlikely that the alacrity provider or even your own Alacrity will be enough for Improved Alacrity to work. 

The Well of Action just provides to an extra window to attack at 100% damage. This is great to if you are using Celestials or Support gear. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The further lowering cooldowns dont really help you under certain conditions. Most of the time when you need the extra slow durations will be open world or Fractals/Dungeons. It is then unlikely that the alacrity provider or even your own Alacrity will be enough for Improved Alacrity to work. 

The Well of Action just provides to an extra window to attack at 100% damage. This is great to if you are using Celestials or Support gear. 

Well you're incorrect on that since the current benchmark uses IA.
https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power-chronomancer

 

[Mell.4873]

26 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Well you're incorrect on that since the current benchmark uses IA.
https://snowcrows.com/builds/mesmer/chronomancer/power-chronomancer

 

Did even read what I typed? I said under certain conditions. You can't maintain self-Alacrity so what good would Improve Alacrity do. 

[Nezekan.2671]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Did even read what I typed? I said under certain conditions. You can't maintain self-Alacrity so what good would Improve Alacrity do. 

You get alacrity on shatter, and if your team has an alacrity provider, you should have 95%+ uptime. If not, the alacrity provider is failing. Gaining alacrity on shatters basically counters alacrity lasting for less time on you, so you get as much alacrity as anyone else, which should be close to 100% in group content. If solo, self alacrity is stronger than Chronophantasmia as well. Solo chrono can have permanent quickness, alacrity, fury and high stacks of might. It's a specific build though.

So you only take well of action in group content with a failing alacrity provider?

Edited December 16, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Did even read what I typed? I said under certain conditions. You can't maintain self-Alacrity so what good would Improve Alacrity do. 

You won't maintain perma slow either?

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

You get alacrity on shatter, and if your team has an alacrity provider, you should have 95%+ uptime. If not, the alacrity provider is failing. Gaining alacrity on shatters basically counters alacrity lasting for less time on you, so you get as much alacrity as anyone else, which should be close to 100% in group content. If solo, self alacrity is stronger than Chronophantasmia as well. Solo chrono can have permanent quickness, alacrity, fury and high stacks of might. It's a specific build though.

So you only take well of action in group content with a failing alacrity provider?

Hmm if there is a build for it I guess it could work. My guess is you have to take Wells though. 

Honestly it is strong but like I said certain conditions means it's less effective. When i play Quickness DPS Normally I normally don't run Improved Alacrity. My support builds don't normally max critical chance and instead go for the 25% increase crit chance (trait) on F1 shatter. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You won't maintain perma slow either?

Its all about the burst window, you won't maintain permanent Alacrity without Wells either. 

[Infusion.7149]

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Its all about the burst window, you won't maintain permanent Alacrity without Wells either. 

I wouldn't call it a worthwhile trait for bursting when it is crit chance only. Very few people build a power build with a situational crit chance that requires stacking slow as opposed to readily available conditions such as bleeding, movement impairing conditions, or burning. If you played long enough you will remember when chrono stacking was a thing because of the danger time damage bonus (not crit chance). Without slow stacking you are talking about burst into a CC which means you need to run delayed reactions, which comes at a cost of 10% on your shatters due to losing Time Catches up. That window is even shorter than a breakbar's 10 seconds of exposed (which was upped from 5 seconds).

If you mean in PVP (because in WVW slow stacking isn't even a thing) your burst window is only 1.5s before expertise and the damage bonus is not for condi only power. It is unlikely you will run expertise to lengthen the slow condition as a result.

This is in contrast to a reasonable expectation that you will have alacrity after shattering since it's innate to chrono.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

I wouldn't call it a worthwhile trait for bursting when it is crit chance only. Very few people build a power build with a situational crit chance that requires stacking slow as opposed to readily available conditions such as bleeding, movement impairing conditions, or burning. If you played long enough you will remember when chrono stacking was a thing because of the danger time damage bonus (not crit chance). Without slow stacking you are talking about burst into a CC which means you need to run delayed reactions, which comes at a cost of 10% on your shatters due to losing Time Catches up. That window is even shorter than a breakbar's 10 seconds of exposed (which was upped from 5 seconds).

If you mean in PVP (because in WVW slow stacking isn't even a thing) your burst window is only 1.5s before expertise and the damage bonus is not for condi only power. It is unlikely you will run expertise to lengthen the slow condition as a result.

This is in contrast to a reasonable expectation that you will have alacrity after shattering since it's innate to chrono.

I don't use it in WvW. I really only meant PvE Open World and the odd time I preform a Quickness DPS role. 

Its not ideal either since most of my attacks won't be at 100% critical chance but It does allow me to have other stats like Healing Power or Concentration.

Back to my point, Well of Action is really just an opening attack before you use something like F3 shatter so Well of Action and Sword 2 are a great combo. This really only helps in Open World where everything dies very fast. 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Infusion.7149]

18 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

I don't use it in WvW. I really only meant PvE Open World and the odd time I preform a Quickness DPS role. 

Its not ideal either since most of my attacks won't be at 100% critical chance but It does allow me to have other stats like Healing Power or Concentration.

Back to my point, Well of Action is really just an opening attack before you use something like F3 shatter so Well of Action and Sword 2 are a great combo. This really only helps in Open World where everything dies very fast. 

So what is your build? Why would you run well of action over say phantasmal disenchanter ,phantasmal defender, any mantras, well of precog, or well of calamity? If you just want movement speed you would run signet of inspiration because it doesn't have a long cooldown for its swiftness and waiting 3 seconds in place for superspeed is jank.

How is it a better opener than mirror images?

If every time someone points out your logic you go "it's for openworld" is it really worth discussing? I don't understand that.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So what is your build? Why would you run well of action over say phantasmal disenchanter ,phantasmal defender, any mantras, well of precog, or well of calamity? If you just want movement speed you would run signet of inspiration because it doesn't have a long cooldown for its swiftness and waiting 3 seconds in place for superspeed is jank.

How is it a better opener than mirror images?

If every time someone points out your logic you go "it's for openworld" is it really worth discussing? I don't understand that.

All I am claiming is that I have used Well of Action, I don't need to prove it with a build.
I would still like to see a buff.

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

All I am claiming is that I have used Well of Action, I don't need to prove it with a build.
I would still like to see a buff.

You stated "it is strong", when it isn't. That's what I take issue with , when the topic is specifically about how "useless" they are.
I really don't care what people run on their openworld builds.

Edited December 17, 2022 by Infusion.7149

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You stated "it is strong", when it isn't. That's what I take issue with , when the topic is specifically about how "useless" they are.
I really don't care what people run on their openworld builds.

Okay it's not strong, meh it's pointless arguing really.

Also, i said Improved Alacrity is strong I never said Danger Time was. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Varis.5467]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay it's not strong then, meh it's pointless arguing really.

You are right, it's pointless cause it's just pretty daft to claim a build is strong just because it works in openworld. 

Openworld is so kitten easy and anyone could get by with literally any build. 
 

[Nezekan.2671]

 

5 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Okay it's not strong, meh it's pointless arguing really.

Also, i said Improved Alacrity is strong I never said Danger Time was.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABwyx7lNwYYNMNWJW6WatPA-zRRYbRPGOszIMpQEqAVeQCkeAVA-e

This is the solo build that has permanent alacrity/quickness/fury/might and also permanent 100% crit chance while under fury. You do need some WvW infusions for it though, if you don't have them, change the gear a bit. This build is merely a template, tweak it as you like, but some fundamentals are necessary.

You don't need toughness or vitality from gear, Jadebot vitality is enough. You have so much defensive abilities on this build, it's more than enough. All of them recharge so fast and you can reset them on top of it. You also get extra healing from wells trait. Well of Precog is insanely powerful when used properly.

You can also do a greatsword variant of this build, replace illusions with domination if doing so. Oh and Mimic on the build is a placeholder, you can run whatever you want for one of your utility slots. 

(And for those who don't know, sigil of celerity does not actually need interrupt, if you CC the enemy it works. Also works on break bars, so it's basically free quickness every 20 seconds a lot of our skills have cc on them and coupled with other sources , the result is permanent quickness)

Edited December 17, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Varis.5467 said:

You are right, it's pointless cause it's just pretty daft to claim a build is strong just because it works in openworld. 

Openworld is so kitten easy and anyone could get by with literally any build. 
 

Gosh all I said was Well of Action can be used to trigger Danger Time.

The instances in which I use it are kind of irrelevant. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

27 minutes ago, Nezekan.2671 said:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PiABwyx7lNwYYNMNWJW6WatPA-zRRYbRPGOszIMpQEqAVeQCkeAVA-e

This is the solo build that has permanent alacrity/quickness/fury/might and also permanent 100% crit chance while under fury. You do need some WvW infusions for it though, if you don't have them, change the gear a bit. This build is merely a template, tweak it as you like, but some fundamentals are necessary.

You don't need toughness or vitality from gear, Jadebot vitality is enough. You have so much defensive abilities on this build, it's more than enough. All of them recharge so fast and you can reset them on top of it. You also get extra healing from wells trait. Well of Precog is insanely powerful when used properly.

You can also do a greatsword variant of this build, replace illusions with domination if doing so. Oh and Mimic on the build is a placeholder, you can run whatever you want for one of your utility slots. 

(And for those who don't know, sigil of celerity does not actually need interrupt, if you CC the enemy it works. Also works on break bars, so it's basically free quickness every 20 seconds a lot of our skills have cc on them and coupled with other sources , the result is permanent quickness)

Hmm I never really thought of doing this. I tend to run all phantasms since I can reset them with time shift. 

[Varis.5467]

10 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Gosh all I said was Well of Action can be used to trigger Danger Time.

Really? We are all just responding to the arguments you have raised in spirit of the discussion, and now you are retracting your previous points?