Herald feedback; herald of each legend

[Phyrak.7260]

Hey there,

I've been playing a good bit of revenant lately and the herald always struck me as peculiar.

A herald by definition is "a sign of something to come".
I guess I'm in the few who see that camping a legend (or element if you play elementalist) would give good reason to stand out and be different amongst the class's mechanics and elite specialization.

First of all, how would this work?

During combat, the revenant cannot swap legends; however, activating facet of nature now triggers invocation based on the legend that is in use to a greater effect.
The invocation line is applied in this manner instead of swapping to a legend.

What of boons? 

This is perhaps the part I've been fiddling with and there's probably a way to make it work - a general access to whatever boons were available with the heralds facets.
Triggered boons only occur on appropriate traits and activating facet of nature.

What of the herald's skills? 

They, and all other (core) legends have some sort of bonus applied - be it generate energy ala bladesworn flow or boons, conditions afflicted etc etc.

You could even get a little more epic in how your character and glint interact.
In the final fight against the void, the combat aspects that shone through showed what glints herald should have played like.

Forced engagement as a targeted 3-5 enemies aoe would certainly be a little more terrifying to fight against if you were in conflict with a herald of the stone dwarf.

Eg.

Launch into the air and land with a fire field would certainly make an entrance - that would certainly make elemental blast a more appealing ability to be both gap closer and combo field.

Aspect of the faceted dragon to gain its mantle, bonus boon duration and perhaps added bonuses or changes to how heal/utilities work.

What of traits?

Leaning towards weapons used per legendary while still giving some freedom to branch out - you get to keep weapon swap after all.

Eg. While wielding sword gain power, staff healing, shield concentration etc - bonus if under appropriate legend.

Herald it seems (under glint at least) is a boon focused bruiser and the intention here would be to share the boons around with the appropriate traits taken - shared empowerment being precisely that.

Though, now letting the revenant be a singular force of the legend chosen.

Embrace the darkness and herald getting a now legendary energy toggle for glint would let this faceted dragon shine through. Perhaps with a little aurene here and there.
The toggle itself could be a little dovakin to it as well.

Nominal utility toggles like that of impossible odds and vengeful hammers would give added buffs like regeneration or resolution to make it appealing to stay in the readiness for combat.

Ventari's abilities may need some slight damage (yes, I know he's a pacifist or extra cc) as to be able to gain maximum effect while being a herald of ventari 

All other legends would fit well.
It would just be about rearranging the trait line between legend stance buff, boons and weapons - perhaps activation of skills there too.

I know it seems a little on the wild side and less than likely to occur.
But it could certainly change how herald plays and how you could play both with and against in wvw.

Thank you for reading,

-Phyrak

[Fueki.4753]

Swapping Legends is Revenants main combat mechanic.

If they removed it, they'd need to drastically rebalance the entire profession, including:
a) Making every single skill significantly more potent

b) Reworking or scrap the Energy mechanic

c) let player customize the utility bar like other professions

I don't think Arenanet would consider it worth the resources they'd have to spend to please you and risk disgruntling a decent portion of the current Revenant enjoyers.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Phyrak.7260]

 

7 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Swapping Legends is Revenants main combat mechanic.

If they removed it, they'd need to drastically rebalance the entire profession, including:
a) Making every single skill significantly more potent

b) Reworking or scrap the Energy mechanic

c) let player customize the utility bar like other professions

I don't think Arenanet would consider it worth the resources they'd have to spend to please you and risk disgruntling a decent portion of the current Revenant enjoyers.

This concept would only apply to the herald e-spec - no other e-spec.

It's just leaning into the idea of being a herald for every other legend

A custom utility bar with added powers from the mists would work with it well.

Core, renegades and vindicators can all swap legends - I'm not taking it away from them.

I'm seeking for herald to be able to focus and emphasize one legend (which can be swapped outside of combat) to give more play styles and a an outlet for the few who enjoy camping a legend (or element if you play an ele the same way I do).

Though, I'd agree, there would need to be a power spike and a way to get energy going; which was spoken in the section for facet of nature and how it links and uses invocation in another manner while staying in one legend 

[draxynnic.3719]

Don't know how herald is peculiar. It's a traitline, stance, and weapon associated with a specific legend, just like all the elite specialisations and four out of five core specialisations. The term 'herald' is simply reflective of being Glint's herald, as Glint is an exception for the usual rule of legends in that we know Glint's actual spirit is directly involved with the specialisation (heralds are probably still drawing power from her mists echo rather than her spirit directly, but it's official canon that Glint's spirit taught Rytlock how to be a revenant).

A revenant specialisation without legend-swapping would be like single-element elementalist - there's just too much of the underlying mechanics of revenant based on at least having the option to legend-swap that to make it happen would require such a deep rework it'd be easier to make whatever concept you have in mind work by starting with another profession entirely. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

People will describe their dream fantasy of just a Core Rev but refuse to play it......

[Phyrak.7260]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Don't know how herald is peculiar. It's a traitline, stance, and weapon associated with a specific legend, just like all the elite specialisations and four out of five core specialisations. The term 'herald' is simply reflective of being Glint's herald, as Glint is an exception for the usual rule of legends in that we know Glint's actual spirit is directly involved with the specialisation (heralds are probably still drawing power from her mists echo rather than her spirit directly, but it's official canon that Glint's spirit taught Rytlock how to be a revenant).

A revenant specialisation without legend-swapping would be like single-element elementalist - there's just too much of the underlying mechanics of revenant based on at least having the option to legend-swap that to make it happen would require such a deep rework it'd be easier to make whatever concept you have in mind work by starting with another profession entirely. 

Thank you for the brush with the lore again; been a while since going through HoT.

I think I mentioned it already; the actual swapping mechanic of energy refresh, associated boons etc would be a greatly enhanced facet of nature in both senses of passive and active - this skill also a lynch pin for the use of the invocation line to maximize the new f2. 

I thought herald worked well in way it handled both passive and active play in the boon generation play style.

I don't know if you have played an elemental elementalist - it's a fun challenge.

I have a particular memory that stands out; full signet air elemental. No swapping, but I was able to generate my own boons with ease back when signets gave auras - I think I killed a warrior that day. It was a real challenge and got me on the path of seeing ways to actually bring out that play style to differentiate from core and other e-specs.

 

6 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

People will describe their dream fantasy of just a Core Rev but refuse to play it......

This is in the same vein as core ele, the on swap traits within the element won't trigger as your in a more focused state.

The use of the f2 is somewhat close, but no where near defined enough to actually give greater strength and benefit to focusing a singular legend 

[draxynnic.3719]

Oh, you can be a revenant that camps one legend if you ration your energy, just as you could be an elementalist that camps one element (usually fire). But both professions are designed in a way such that there will inevitably be features that you're not using if you do so. Fire camping tempest, for instance, worked primarily because at the time (and to an extent even now) the fire staff skills just did so much damage than the other attunements that switching out was inevitably a DPS loss. But you still had traits that you weren't triggering if you did that.

Revenant isn't quite so extreme, but the same general principle applies.

The Legendary Dragon Stance is designed to function with and complement other legends, and the legend-swapping mechanic is the core identity of revenant. I don't think it would be to the benefit of herald players to completely rework it at this point. The main functionality problem herald has is that hammer is bad in every mode that doesn't have a W and therefore renegade is the only revenant with a practical ranged weapon.

There are several other professions that are based on, and designed around, the principle of camping a single theme.

[Phyrak.7260]

Aye, rationing is the issue; if you're focusing on one style - it would make sense for a resource shift in letting the legend/element your camping come through strongly.

I understand that swapping is a core mechanic and in turn identity - thus, having an e-spec based around camping would allow for a different play style from core and other elites.

The aim isn't to take away from other specs, just for a camping spec to be usable within the theme/play style of the class(es) where switching is a main focus.

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

The aim isn't to take away from other specs, just for a camping spec to be usable within the theme/play style of the class(es) where switching is a main focus.

Then it should just be a new specialization that is created specifically with camping in mind, not a rework of an existing one that had been created with swapping in mind.

Reworking Herald into forced camping effectively is taking away from the players who enjoy Herald with Legend swapping.

[Phyrak.7260]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Then it should just be a new specialization that is created specifically with camping in mind, not a rework of an existing one that had been created with swapping in mind.

Reworking Herald into forced camping effectively is taking away from the players who enjoy Herald with Legend swapping.

I think that some of the traits are already in line for it to be reworked as a camping spec.

Hence why this thread was written up; the same as how tempest is already half a step to being a pure camping spec.

Just about adding minor tweaks to certain skills/or rework to use on swap traits to emphasize its underlying focus 

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

I think that some of the traits are already in line for it to be reworked as a camping spec.

Hence why this thread was written up; the same as how tempest is already half a step to being a pure camping spec.

Just about adding minor tweaks to certain skills/or rework to use on swap traits to emphasize its underlying focus 

Your idea would still take away from people who enjoy it as it currently is meant to be played. And that shouldn't happen.

If Arenanet wanted people to camp one thing, they ought to design a new specialization for that. The same goes for Tempest.

 

[Phyrak.7260]

2 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Your idea would still take away from people who enjoy it as it currently is meant to be played. And that shouldn't happen.

If Arenanet wanted people to camp one thing, they ought to design a new specialization for that. The same goes for Tempest.

 

I guess this is where a discussion about the actual e-specs via a player survey would be good.

If you play herald, when you do - are you more likely to camp the legend or do you swap legends on occasion? 

No doubt that there's background data with which spec/trait line is camped the most by the players - with that also in mind, with some of the traits spoken about above. I came to the conclusion that a rework could give further potential play styles and a way for a niche to be filled.

Far easier for a rework on a e-spec that is half a step on the way there compared to a completely new e-spec which would more or less borrow the code which is already there from herald 

[Fueki.4753]

55 minutes ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

I guess this is where a discussion about the actual e-specs via a player survey would be good.

If you play herald, when you do - are you more likely to camp the legend or do you swap legends on occasion? 

No doubt that there's background data with which spec/trait line is camped the most by the players - with that also in mind, with some of the traits spoken about above. I came to the conclusion that a rework could give further potential play styles and a way for a niche to be filled.

Far easier for a rework on a e-spec that is half a step on the way there compared to a completely new e-spec which would more or less borrow the code which is already there from herald 

You don't need a survey for that. even if there's just a small minority that mains a Herald and swaps frequently (and it's guaranteed that such people exist, because there are aficionados for everything), you'd still be stealing their joy.

 

[Phyrak.7260]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You don't need a survey for that. even if there's just a small minority that mains a Herald and swaps frequently (and it's guaranteed that such people exist, because there are aficionados for everything), you'd still be stealing their joy.

 

And in the same vein of those who have been seeking a camping spec? 

Look at the recent patch from the 29th, lots of people having their joy stolen for changes to the class they play.

My suggestion is to fill a niche that is already there and has been for a long while - particularly with ele.

In this case, the herald is already half a step there without the need of another e-spec to fill in the other half of the step; filling in the half step that is both herald and tempest (or even catalyst to an extent - really depends on how you look at it), would give more creative freedom as said niche would be filled in a patch rather than taking two years out to make an e-spec for it.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

I guess this is where a discussion about the actual e-specs via a player survey would be good.

You can probably draw a conclusion from the fact that your thread has low engagement (possibly because the title implies it's mere feedback rather than the burn-the-current-playstyle-to-the-waterline rework you're proposing), and that what engagement there has been has been all negative.

I'm pretty confident that if something like this was to be proposed in a balance update preview, it'd get eviscerated in feedback. Yes, deep reworks happen occasionally, but reworks that completely change the playstyle like that only happen when there is a serious balancing issue that is viewed as impractical to fix with the existing mechanics. I don't think anyone has levelled such a complaint regarding the herald elite specialisation. Herald's design is fairly well-regarded, with its problems mainly coming from problems with core revenant design, and imbalances regarding herald have all been in the area of numbers tweaks.

Like @Fueki.4753 said, you'd have more luck, or at least less pushback, asking for it as a future elite specialisation. That might not take all that long - they announced that they were working on a followup expansion as soon as EoD launched, and last time they went straight from one expansion to the next, it was about two years between them, so we could well be looking at early 2024. 

To be honest, though, I'm sceptical even there. Even if you introduced a specialisation mechanic that replaced legend swapping, thereby allowing energy replenishment and for traits that trigger off legend swapping to function, the core legends at least would have the following issues:

Issue 1: Core legends are designed so that they have holes in their capabilities, since none of them are intended to be a complete build. The assumption is that your second legend will at least somewhat cover the weaknesses of the first, and vice versa.

Issue 2: Core legends are generally balanced on the assumption that you're eventually going to run out of energy and have to switch to the other legend. Being able to drain your energy, press a button, and then have 75 energy again with the same legend might be a mite too good with certain legend abilities that aren't intended to be up near-permanently.

I could see such a proposal requiring a lot of work to balance the core legends in order to be able to function for a one-legend revenant. Work that could well be somewhat redundant due to the end result likely feeling very similar in behaviour to some other profession. Shiro? It's the Assassin stance, they could pretty much reproduce that by creating an OH sword thief spec with an Unrelenting Assault-style attack. Jalis? Stability, condi removal, spirit hammers, damage reduction... very guardian-y. Mallyx? People described him at the time as essentially a melee condi necro. Ventari? Pick a healer, basically. One that has projectile denial ideally, so... probably guardian, scrapper, mech, or focus tempest. Ultimately, any no-swapping revenant concept can probably be better done on some other profession unless it specifically needs an energy mechanic in order to function, and even that isn't necessarily a major hindrance since ArenaNet has demonstrated a willingness to add such mechanics to existing professions. You'd get six utility skills to choose from and the ability to pick up utilities from the core profession if needed in order to create a more well-rounded build. Heck, you could pretty much view non-scourge necromancers as essentially being revenants that stick to a single concept rather than bouncing between two, and certain other elite specs like holosmith and spectre take a similar approach.

 

So to summarise, there's two big reasons I'm against the proposal:

1) It'd ruin herald for the people who enjoy how it plays now (it just got quickdps and quickheal builds, and the latter at least would die with this!), and there's no balance justification to do so.

2) If you're not swapping between legends, it'd probably be easier to build the concept off a profession that is already designed around not swapping between legends.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Maybe just rework herald's shield a bit, remember it being underwhelming. 

[Phyrak.7260]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You can probably draw a conclusion from the fact that your thread has low engagement (possibly because the title implies it's mere feedback rather than the burn-the-current-playstyle-to-the-waterline rework you're proposing), and that what engagement there has been has been all negative.

I'm pretty confident that if something like this was to be proposed in a balance update preview, it'd get eviscerated in feedback. Yes, deep reworks happen occasionally, but reworks that completely change the playstyle like that only happen when there is a serious balancing issue that is viewed as impractical to fix with the existing mechanics. I don't think anyone has levelled such a complaint regarding the herald elite specialisation. Herald's design is fairly well-regarded, with its problems mainly coming from problems with core revenant design, and imbalances regarding herald have all been in the area of numbers tweaks.

Like @Fueki.4753 said, you'd have more luck, or at least less pushback, asking for it as a future elite specialisation. That might not take all that long - they announced that they were working on a followup expansion as soon as EoD launched, and last time they went straight from one expansion to the next, it was about two years between them, so we could well be looking at early 2024. 

To be honest, though, I'm sceptical even there. Even if you introduced a specialisation mechanic that replaced legend swapping, thereby allowing energy replenishment and for traits that trigger off legend swapping to function, the core legends at least would have the following issues:

Issue 1: Core legends are designed so that they have holes in their capabilities, since none of them are intended to be a complete build. The assumption is that your second legend will at least somewhat cover the weaknesses of the first, and vice versa.

Issue 2: Core legends are generally balanced on the assumption that you're eventually going to run out of energy and have to switch to the other legend. Being able to drain your energy, press a button, and then have 75 energy again with the same legend might be a mite too good with certain legend abilities that aren't intended to be up near-permanently.

I could see such a proposal requiring a lot of work to balance the core legends in order to be able to function for a one-legend revenant. Work that could well be somewhat redundant due to the end result likely feeling very similar in behaviour to some other profession. Shiro? It's the Assassin stance, they could pretty much reproduce that by creating an OH sword thief spec with an Unrelenting Assault-style attack. Jalis? Stability, condi removal, spirit hammers, damage reduction... very guardian-y. Mallyx? People described him at the time as essentially a melee condi necro. Ventari? Pick a healer, basically. One that has projectile denial ideally, so... probably guardian, scrapper, mech, or focus tempest. Ultimately, any no-swapping revenant concept can probably be better done on some other profession unless it specifically needs an energy mechanic in order to function, and even that isn't necessarily a major hindrance since ArenaNet has demonstrated a willingness to add such mechanics to existing professions. You'd get six utility skills to choose from and the ability to pick up utilities from the core profession if needed in order to create a more well-rounded build. Heck, you could pretty much view non-scourge necromancers as essentially being revenants that stick to a single concept rather than bouncing between two, and certain other elite specs like holosmith and spectre take a similar approach.

 

So to summarise, there's two big reasons I'm against the proposal:

1) It'd ruin herald for the people who enjoy how it plays now (it just got quickdps and quickheal builds, and the latter at least would die with this!), and there's no balance justification to do so.

2) If you're not swapping between legends, it'd probably be easier to build the concept off a profession that is already designed around not swapping between legends.

Even in the old, now archived forums - suggestions like the above were always neglected and had negative feedback.

Heralds up keep skills are its draw to camping.

The associated builds spoken about could still exist, it's just about rerouting how the traits work, especially with how it benefits from staying in glint.

As I mentioned, staying in a legend would turn legend swap mechanics into ancient echo or whatever the f2 might be. Increased upkeep - perhaps a mechanic to copy across from bladesworn along with a higher base pool of energy - keeping a low floor with a higher roof of attacks and skills use.

Per legend skills could gain additional bonuses for camping them particularly; reduced cool downs, energy cost, boons or even a daze or targets affected; plenty of ways to make it work.

That's the other part of this discussion - if you don't like the way it is, go away and do something else. I enjoy guardian and jallis, though similar - there's a certain amount of difference between them; a herald of the stone dwarf could accentuate these differences while both in similar roles with boons.

The thing is that I'm not looking at the removal of boons from the herald; it's more of bringing a herald in all aspects of the legend at play, then to the fore to its greatest extent. The f2 plays to this extent as to make invocation a useful line while keeping to camping.

As for only 6 utility skills - a set of neutral mist abilities to choose from would both allow for the herald to become hyper specialized in it's chosen legend or have the holes in the legend filled to make camping it a little easier; generation of upkeep would work well here too.

 

 

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I think mechanically herald is fine where it's at. 

[Phyrak.7260]

 

8 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think mechanically herald is fine where it's at. 

So long as the discussion is had, a dev may see this post and it will either bring a future e-spec with camping in mind or have herald changed to fit the niche waiting to be filled 🙂

one or the other will happen depending on interpretation and use of code in (re)making of the spec to come 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Seems like a lot of work for something only you seem to want. It took people complaining about firebrand for years for it to be overhauled. 

5 minutes ago, Phyrak.7260 said:

 

So long as the discussion is had, a dev may see this post and it will either bring a future e-spec with camping in mind or have herald changed to fit the niche waiting to be filled 🙂

one or the other will happen depending on interpretation and use of code in (re)making of the spec to come 

 

[Phyrak.7260]

2 minutes ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Seems like a lot of work for something only you seem to want. It took people complaining about firebrand for years for it to be overhauled. 

 

It's a niche style that isn't really thought about - the niche itself would have a few different ways to play it depending on legend/element focus.

Given the appropriate buffs/tweaks to the class to make it comparable - it could mainline the niche.

As I said, I have forum posts about this on the old archived forums: Back in the day

There is a player niche there - perhaps few and far between, but also plays very different to a nominal build - different enough that an e-spec would work in the way that e-specs are supposed to differentiate themselves from core and from one another

 

 

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Maybe but my current fave is Vindicator which is like the opposite of that so I don't really care for them adding an e-spec that's just less dynamic than regular rev. 

[Phyrak.7260]

Aye,

I've done some camping with vindi - it's good fun when combined with jallis.

That's the thing about the e-specs and potential; fluidity and rigidity.

Catering to play styles - the thematics of rev are great, but I find it a little too fluid in the same way that ele is for me. Hence the hope a camping spec that rewards a strong sense of characterisation and strengthening the element/legend at play to make it a force to be reckoned with 

 

[Yasai.3549]

I know many Rev players disagree with me when I say this but Revenant Legend Stances in a vacuum looks designed to be camped. Hear me out. 

 

Ignoring all the other mechanics of Revenant and looking at JUST the Legends, each Legend play very very differently and will often change how you behave when you enter that Legend. And oftentimes, each Legend loses its influence completely once leaving it, which causes some major problems for certain specialized builds. (Great example is Ventari doing the peace sign and evaporate along with any of their heal capability the moment you swap out of Centaur) 

So what you have through primary observation is a Class that can pick two "Sub classes" and switch between them based on what they need, which is a pretty sound concept. 

Now what happens in practice is the Energy cost and Energy system. These Legend skills are expensive and cost alot of Energy to keep casting, which is why the Revenants are forced to play the whole economy minigame whenever they need to play a specialized role. You cast a little too much and bam you just rendered your Subclass unusable for at least 3 - 4s before you can cast some on-demand skill. 

This much needed "Role uptime" is entirely lost on Revenant whose strict Energy governance basically slaughters their gameplay the moment they swap out of a Legend for the sake of refreshing their resource. This is why I will never support people who think Legend Flipping as a playstyle is Core to Rev, because it just kills so many playstyles due to the enforced Legend flipping.

More Especs need to explore altering how Energy system is governing Revenant. Herald is a start with Glint. Renegade is.... eh. Vindicator decides to put two Legends into one Legend which is... eh.

I want to see something else. I want to see maybe an Espec that can explore player movement for example to regenerate energy. Or consuming Boons to regenerate energy. (mmmyes gimmi that Discount Dervish) 



 

Edited December 26, 2022 by Yasai.3549

[Fueki.4753]

38 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

I know many Rev players disagree with me when I say this but Revenant Legend Stances in a vacuum looks designed to be camped. Hear me out.

Ignoring all the other mechanics of Revenant and looking at JUST the Legends, each Legend play very very differently and will often change how you behave when you enter that Legend. And oftentimes, each Legend loses its influence completely once leaving it, which causes some major problems for certain specialized builds. (Great example is Ventari doing the peace sign and evaporate along with any of their heal/alac capability the moment you swap out of Centaur)
So what you have through primary observation is a Class that can pick two "Sub classes" and switch between them based on what they need, which is a pretty sound concept.
Now what happens in practice is the Energy cost and Energy system. These Legend skills are expensive and cost alot of Energy to keep casting, which is why the Revenants are forced to play the whole economy minigame whenever they need to play a specialized role. You cast a little too much and bam you just rendered your Subclass unusable for at least 3 - 4s before you can cast some on-demand skill.
This much needed "Role uptime" is entirely lost on Revenant whose strict Energy governance basically slaughters their gameplay the moment they swap out of a Legend for the sake of refreshing their resource. This is why I will never support people who think Legend Flipping as a playstyle is Core to Rev, because it just kills so many playstyles due to the enforced Legend flipping.
More Especs need to explore altering how Energy system is governing Revenant. Herald is a start with Glint. Renegade is.... eh. Vindicator decides to put two Legends into one Legend which is... eh.

I want to see something else. I want to see maybe an Espec that can explore player movement for example to regenerate energy. Or consuming Boons to regenerate energy. (mmmyes gimmi that Discount Dervish)

The issue with Revenant may be that it wasn't intended to be played without Elite specializations. After all, it was released at the same time as the first batch of specializations and those were purposely powercrept so players primarily play them instead of core professions.

The four core Legends are so diverse in order to harmonize with different aspects of Elite specializations. Glint works fine with Shiro and Jalis on a physical DPS build. Glint could also work decent with Ventari on a support build, if tuned right. Mallyx used to work well with Kalla on condition builds.

I don't think the core Legends were ever meant to work well with each other.

Edited December 26, 2022 by Fueki.4753