There is no "Healthy" build for catalyst with it's current design CMC!

[Sahne.6950]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Too much blind ❌They aren't doing anything about this.

Blinding Flash: Reduced ammunition from 2 to 1 in PvP and WvW. Literally cut the instant blinds that were causing problems in half...

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Too much reflect ❌They aren't doing anything about this.

• Too much aura play ❌They aren't doing anything about this.
• Too much stability ❌They aren't doing anything about this.

Conjurer: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of conjured-weapon abilities.  reduces ammount of magauras. -> is no longer worth to take over the other two -> also removed the initial fireaura, because you dont take it any longer.  This alone is toning down auras a ton. And its toning down blocks+invulns+barrier. This one is rather big!

Deploy Jade Sphere: Increased cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds in PvP only.  making combofields less accessible -> less auras. ->less reflects and stabi.

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

• Too much blocking ❌They aren't doing anything about this.
• Too much invulnerability ❌They aren't doing anything about this.
• to many defenses kinda...

Elemental Celerity: Increased cooldown from 60 seconds to 75 seconds in PvP only. Resetting defensive cooldowns is what initially caused the mayhem, if you ask me. They should have completly reworked the elite tbh.

Stone Sheath: Reduced the duration of Tectonic Shift from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.

Fortified Earth: Reduced base barrier from 2,520 to 1,254 in PvP only.

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

& lightning flash. Whether we are talking about Scepter Cata or H Cata or even base Ele in general, its pumping way too much defensive value & mobility

Soothing Disruption: This trait no longer reduces the cooldown of cantrips.   (all cantrips got reduced CD, but lightningflash didnt... they know that mobility is a problem.

 

THOSE NERFS ARE NOT SMALL, and they buffed alot of things that could become problematic for Cata.... i guess we have to wait and see.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

I think lightning flash / super speed is just the icing on the cake and ele should keep its mobility tools

I agree with most of your post except for this.

I had a lot of footage, which I wish I would have saved now, that demonstrated how Fresh Air Eles can endlessly chase me as a F2 Gazelle Charging Soulbeast with Greatsword #3 Swoop with 33% Swiftness, popping Super Speed with Zephyr, Stealthing with LB#3, and you can still never get away from them. This is partially because of Gale nailing you when you try to use blocks as well, but between the mobility, the unblockable CCs, and all the channeled reflect ignoring ranged, it's way way too much. I'm not even joking around about this, it is easier to disengage DP daredevils and P Heralds than it is a Scepter Catalyst.

You know what? I think I might actually have a clip: Cata/Ele Mobility - Twitch

This isn't even the best example I could have shown of Ele kiting with Super Speed. There are times when you should be able to hit them but you can't because the Super Speed allows them to kite your melee while they channel constant ranged pressure against you. It's too much Super Speed dude. They need to lose some of it.

This one class has: 1) The best foot speed, 2) Highest natural sustain/defenses that are also AoE party support skills, 3) Highest DPS most practical channeled ranged bursts on the lowest ICDS. 4) Unblockable ranged CCs.

Every aspect of Cata/Ele is outperforming every other class. They are as fast as a Thief, they have sustain on par with Virtuoso, They deal more damage on bursts than a Sic Em Soulbeast with ranged that is channel rather than projectile, that is on a 6s CD instead of a 60s CD, Gale just nails you to the cross with a ranged channel 3s knockdown in the most vulnerable of moments when you need to block and due to this it is arguably the strongest CC in the game.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

There is an obvious response to this that for the sake of the moderator I will not say.
Sahne is right and we should wait to see what the patch brings. At the end of the day you play mostly sic'em soulbeast and ele can counter it well with focus so ofc you're going to be hurting when an ele elite spec dials it up to 11.
Maybe, just maybe, superspeed access needs to be scaled back and go back to not stacking like they did at the behest of scrappers.

Yeah but as I detailed before, we have a serious problem here.

Firstly, it has perpetual reflect so it's basically immune to normal projectiles if a person plays right. It will still be virtually immune to normal projectiles even with the slight nerfs. Those nerfs may stop up sloppy Ele play but they're not going to stop up good Ele play that uses its CDs correctly instead of spamming.

Secondly, we have constant super speed, which means it can just kite melee in conjunction with its teleport and blocks. Now we have a class that is virtually immune to damage unless you go at it with things like ranged instant non-projectiles or channels or ground targeted unblockables. It's just silly levels of damage mitigation vs. the majority of the damage in the game.

And a great deal of what it does, is also AoE party support as well.

This class is bloated to the point that it needs heavy nerfing, not shaves.

[apharma.3741]

15 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah but as I detailed before, we have a serious problem here.

Firstly, it has perpetual reflect so it's basically immune to normal projectiles if a person plays right. It will still be virtually immune to normal projectiles even with the slight nerfs. Those nerfs may stop up sloppy Ele play but they're not going to stop up good Ele play that uses its CDs correctly instead of spamming.

Secondly, we have constant super speed, which means it can just kite melee in conjunction with its teleport and blocks. Now we have a class that is virtually immune to damage unless you go at it with things like ranged instant non-projectiles or channels or ground targeted unblockables. It's just silly levels of damage mitigation vs. the majority of the damage in the game.

And a great deal of what it does, is also AoE party support as well.

This class is bloated to the point that it needs heavy nerfing, not shaves.

No what it needs is reworking of clearly problematic traits.
Elemental Epitome in particular needs to stop giving shocking, magnetic and frost aura like candy because all 3 of these are very strong when spammed.
If Elemental Epitome gave out only fire/dark/light auras you wouldn't be complaining too much.
Like I said, maybe superspeed shouldn't stack...

Edited February 7, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Sahne.6950]

Cata can NOT upkeep reflects permanently.

What they can do, is keep those reflects for the moments where it actually counts, and then chain multiple reflectsources back to back, making the cata immune for 12+ seconds. But then they have downtime.

Not even Tempest with Conjurer Earthshield+Aftershock+focus can upkeep 100%.... not happening.

just wanted to get the facts right.

oh btw, you also dont have permanent superspeed... xD Cata is busted... no doubt.. but please lets keep it real.

oh and btw... Gale is 4 second CC... its even stronger than you thought Trev 😄 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

57 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Cata can NOT upkeep reflects permanently.

Cata can NOT upkeep permanent superspeed.

just want to set this right...

I never said anything was permanent. I said it was perpetual or constant.

They have enough of these effects where players who use their CDs well, EASILY have this stuff on demand all the time. I mean I could show you footage vs. good Eles where for like 5 minutes straight I'm laying down unrelenting consistent ranged pressure and they are 100% immune to projectiles at all times between reflect uptime, blocking, ect ect. You can't hit them unless you're something like a Spellbreaker that can deep boon remove their Stab and land an unblockable Full Counter melee CC. If a class does not have these very specific abilities to be chained, boon removes into unblockable melee CCs, you can't setup a kill threat vs. these Ele builds anymore, not unless you're +ing it 2v1.

I get that the Ele mains want to make sure it isn't overnerfed, I get it.

But seriously boys, this class is promethian hulk level buffed right now.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

29 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

it has perpetual reflect so it's basically immune to normal projectiles if a person plays right. It will still be virtually immune to normal projectiles even with the slight nerfs

huh? okey then i misunderstood this sentence right here.

sowwy.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

Perpetual means continuing for ever Mr Boyer. That is exactly what you said.

[Sahne.6950]

6 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I never said anything was permanent. I said it was constant.

They have enough of these effects where players who use their CDs well, EASILY have this stuff on demand all the time. I mean I could show you footage vs. good Eles where for like 5 minutes straight I'm laying down unrelenting consistent ranged pressure and they are 100% immune to projectiles at all times between reflect uptime, blocking, ect ect. You can't hit them unless you're something like a Spellbreaker that can deep boon remove their Stab and land an unblockable Full Counter melee CC. If a class does not have these very specific abilities to be chained, boon removes into unblockable melee CCs, you can't setup a kill threat vs. these Ele builds anymore, not unless you're +ing it 2v1.

I get that the Ele mains want to make sure it isn't overnerfed, I get it.

But seriously boys, this class is promethian hulk level buffed right now.

what you are observing is a Catalyst that chains reflects during the 9 seconds where you are on longbow, and then regenerates CD´s while you are on GS for 9 seconds.

(i just assumed you play LB/GS) or wait... didnt you play SB/LB... i dont quite remember anymore.

smart useage makes it look like its permanent, when in reality it´s miles away from that, but most professions have clear attack patterns, Ranger probably being the most obvious with the LB->GS switch.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

huh? okey then i misunderstood this sentence right here.

sowwy.

 

Just now, apharma.3741 said:

Perpetual means continuing for ever Mr Boyer. That is exactly what you said.

Sort of

The word perpetual is usually used to describe things that happen in phases, like a "perpetual motion machine" or say a pendulum in a grandfather clock going from left to right. In the case of using the word perpetual to describe reflect on Ele, I am referring to its ability to perpetually cycle these sources in a very short amount of time, regularly, and on time, just like the pendulum of grandfather clock.

The word perpetual and permanent are definitely two different things with two different uses. If I was to use the word permanent, I would use in an example like a black permanent marker that once it draws on something, that ink does not go away until cleaned, or a Juggernaut Engi that permanently has Stability that actually doesn't ever go away.

But all of this BS aside, can you guys knock off the low blow word definition attacks? It's honestly very unproductive. Everyone knows the frequency of Ele reflect uptimes. This is moot to argue about.

[Silinsar.6298]

51 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I agree with most of your post except for this.

You know what? I think I might actually have a clip: Cata/Ele Mobility - Twitch

That ele was playing OH dagger though, which has more mobility and much less projectile hate. And you were lacking swiftness at the beginning of the fight. Imo that's one of the situations where counter pressuring would have done you a greater service than trying to run, because that's what enabled them to free-cast on you. Fire on x/D doesn't have an on-demand aura (so no stab) and since they were running FA + Arcana there's also no blind from burning. That's actually a good window to attack them.

 

S/F has no mobility outside of lightning flash (which is fine imo, as it takes a utility slot) and air / FA super speed. And air / FA as an offensive build also needs some more mobility to not be a sitting duck. It's better to make sure there are some windows where you can reliably punish eles imo, than to nerf the few mobility options they have.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Silinsar.6298

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

Sort of

The word perpetual is usually used to describe things that happen in phases, like a "perpetual motion machine" or say a pendulum in a grandfather clock going from left to right. In the case of using the word perpetual to describe reflect on Ele, I am referring to its ability to perpetually cycle these sources in a very short amount of time, regularly, and on time, just like the pendulum of grandfather clock.

The word perpetual and permanent are definitely two different things with two different uses. If I was to use the word permanent, I would use in an example like a black permanent marker that once it draws on something, that ink does not go away until cleaned, or a Juggernaut Engi that permanently has Stability that actually doesn't ever go away.

But all of this BS aside, can you guys knock off the low blow word definition attacks? It's honestly very unproductive. Everyone knows the frequency of Ele reflect uptimes. This is moot to argue about.

There's no sort of, it does literally mean to continue for ever. Ele does not have reflects that go on for ever.
It's not about nit picking your language and everything to do with holding you accountable to the misinformation you throw out.
Ele cannot maintain perpetual (or permanent) reflects or projectile mitigation.
It has high up time of projectile mitigation and consistent low cool down access to projectile mitigation but it is not the level you're proclaiming.

I do think access to magnetic, shocking and frost aura needs to be toned back so you cannot get it every time you go into the appropriate attunement but you only hurt your own argument and come off as a biased ranger main by blowing something so far out of reality.

[Sahne.6950]

Trevor said how he meant it. Its pretty clear what he tried to say.

no need to argue any further tbh.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

Just now, Sahne.6950 said:

Trevor said how he meant it. Its pretty clear what he tried to say.

no need to argue any further tbh.

Sure I'll let it go.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

5 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

Imo that's one of the situations where counter pressuring would have done you a greater service than trying to run

Not in that situation. I had my entire burst on CD and had no meaningful damage output to deal to the Ele. As a Ranger, if you can't surprise the Ele with a big threatening opening, it isn't worth engaging the Ele. What will happen is they will out DPS you and out-sustain you. There is absolutely no counterplay unless you can tag a strong opener going in first.

7 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

you were lacking swiftness at the beginning of the fight.

I have permanent swift effect that cannot be boon removed due to soulbeast merge trait.

8 minutes ago, Silinsar.6298 said:

x/F has no mobility outside of lightning flash (which is fine imo, as it takes a utility slot) and air / FA super speed. And air / FA as an offensive build also needs some more mobility to not be a sitting duck. It's better to make sure there are some windows where you can reliably punish eles imo, than to nerf the few mobility options they have.

Yeah, Fresh Air can go ahead and buff them swiftness. It doesn't need constant super speed.

[Sahne.6950]

3 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, Fresh Air can go ahead and buff them swiftness.

There is already a trait like this in Weaver.... if this would stack.... that would be awesome. 

They could then get rid of the superspeed, giving yet another incentive to run FA Weaver instead of Cata. with Wovenstride+now swiftnessbuff from air, you would be zooming still.... but only on Weaver.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Woven_Stride

But i am biased here 😄 i WANT sceptre to be viable/good on Weaver, but currently it looks like that will never happen, because of cata.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

There is already a trait like this in Weaver.... if this would stack.... that would be awesome. 

They could then get rid of the superspeed, giving yet another incentive to run FA Weaver instead of Cata. with Wovenstride+now swiftnessbuff from air, you would be zooming still.... but only on Weaver.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Woven_Stride

Maybe but a lot of burst classes are VERY mobile, take sic'em soulbeast for example:
Pet merge ability usually for mobility
GS or Sword leaps
Usually perma swiftness which according to Mr Boyer cannot be removed.

Other classes like spellbreaker have whirlwind, rush, dagger leaps and perma swiftness and it's not even a +1 class.
Holosmith has holo leap and quick access to superspeed via the trait.

Engineer in general has rocket boots and when traited is great mobility, doubly so with mechanist shift signet.

I think superspeed just needs to go back to not stacking, you get your 3s from air attunement but you can't keep stacking it to zoom zoom zoom and so need to stagger it to really keep up. Doing so places a staggered cool down on your attunements too which can work in the defenders favour.

[Sahne.6950]

5 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Usually perma swiftness which according to Mr Boyer cannot be removed.

you have +30% movementspeed buff when merged. Hes correct.

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I think superspeed just needs to go back to not stacking, you get your 3s from air attunement but you can't keep stacking it

That wouldnt change superspeed uptime for FA Cata at all... 

they do not stack any currently(atleast when going for basic rotations). But they can apply it at any point.

They could potentially stack it, but it requires you to cripple your gameplay immensly.  Think about how they apply the superspeed and what they need to do to "stack" it.....

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

26 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

There's no sort of, it does literally mean to continue for ever. Ele does not have reflects that go on for ever.

Exactly, it has reflects that perpetually reapply.

26 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

It's not about nit picking your language and everything to do with holding you accountable to the misinformation you throw out.

Yeah it is, that's all you ever do is pick assy little knitpicks like this in attempts to make it look like I'm throwing misinformation because the truth is, I'm probably the most well-written well-explained forum user in this forum and you're not sure how else to handle discussions with me 😃

26 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Ele cannot maintain perpetual (or permanent) reflects or projectile mitigation.

Let's take a look at the difference between the use of the words Permanent and Perpetual:

per·ma·nent - lasting or intended to last or remain unchanged indefinitely.

per·pet·u·al - occurring repeatedly - (of a plant) blooming or fruiting several times in one season:

The use of the word permanent is describe something like the permanent marker. The use of the word perpetual is to describe things that repeat or go in cycles but continue to do so, like the pendulum of a grandfather clock or an Ele that keeps recasting projectile reflects.

My use of the word perpetual was correct. It was your misunderstanding of the difference between the words permanent and perpetual, that was incorrect.

apharma.3741 is typing...

Futher explanation for you as I can see you're typing a response already:

You could not say that a permanent marker has left a perpetual black mark on the wall. It would be proper to say it was a permanent mark because it is unchanging and doesn't happen in cycles.

You could not say that the tree permanently produces fruits, but you could say that it perpetually produces fruit when its cycle begins in spring.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[apharma.3741]

10 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

That wouldnt change superspeed uptime for FA Cata at all... 

they do not stack any currently(atleast when going for basic rotations). But they can apply it at any point.

They could potentially stack it, but it requires you to cripple your gameplay immensly.  Think about how they apply the superspeed and what they need to do to "stack" it.....

I know, it's more about if they go in and out of air they're not getting any extra from it stacking.
I really don't think touching FA superspeed access is right though and pushing FA to effectively be weaver only isn't a great answer either.
I think this really comes full circle to "let's see how the patch plays out" though.
I think in general the auras and boons are more of an issue and I'm not really sure how the latter can be toned down without making it feel clunky though maybe the deploy jade sphere cool down increase is the answer in PvP.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 Perhaps you should have clicked the link in my post to you, it was to the English dictionary, not Trevor Boyer US dictionary. Your use of perpetual was correct in regard to something that is continuing for ever. It was factually incorrect though as ele reflects do not in fact continue for ever.
Holding you accountable to misinformation and fact checking is good debating, at least in most intelligent discussion.

Edited February 7, 2023 by apharma.3741

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

I know, it's more about if they go in and out of air they're not getting any extra from it stacking

you only get it when swapping TO air.

to stack Superspeed, they have to quickly jump thru all the elements and cycle air inbetween the elements, while your Air1 is going off constantly refreshing the FA trait..., your basicly putting cooldown on those elements, without actually using them... not using attunements to the fullest leads to a significant sustaindrop and its not worth it. Also swapping into air without any real cooldowns being refreshed is also d00d00..... any Cata stacking superspeed is a freekill.

Superspeed being stackable is NOT the problem here.

The problem is that the Cata elite is resetting defensive skills... you know... the same problem we had with Bladesworn elite.

how to fix cata:

Elemental celerity no longer resets defensive skills (reflects, blocks, invulns)

Earthshield is only spawned once instead of two shields. (this alone gets rid of 2 magauras every 60 seconds.)

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[apharma.3741]

1 minute ago, Sahne.6950 said:

you only get it when swapping TO air.

to stack Superspeed, they have to quickly jump thru all the elements, basicly putting cooldown on those elements, without actually using them... not using attunements to the fullest leads to a significant sustaindrop and its not worth it. Also swapping into air without any real cooldowns being refreshed is also d00d00..... any Cata stacking superspeed is a freekill.

Superspeed being stackable is NOT the problem here.

The problem is the Cata elite resetting defensive skills.

Sure.

I'd still like to see superspeed not stack though, not just for ele.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

18 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

I know, it's more about if they go in and out of air they're not getting any extra from it stacking.
I really don't think touching FA superspeed access is right though and pushing FA to effectively be weaver only isn't a great answer either.
I think this really comes full circle to "let's see how the patch plays out" though.
I think in general the auras and boons are more of an issue and I'm not really sure how the latter can be toned down without making it feel clunky though maybe the deploy jade sphere cool down increase is the answer in PvP.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 Perhaps you should have clicked the link in my post to you, it was to the English dictionary, not Trevor Boyer US dictionary. Your use of perpetual was correct in regard to something that is continuing for ever. It was factually incorrect though as ele reflects do not in fact continue for ever.
Holding you accountable to misinformation and fact checking is good debating, at least in most intelligent discussion.

Yeah, sure.

Edited February 7, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Forum Moderator.3419]

Hello Everyone,
Just a reminder to keep it civil and avoid being rude to other players. I've removed some posts.
Regards.