Is Tyrant's Momentum even a positive effect? (PvP/WvW Willbender)

[Riba.3271]

So Tyrant's momentum is willbender grandmaster trait that does following:

- Reduces duration of Lethal Tempo stacks: 6s -> 4s          Big negative

- Lethal tempo damage per stack (max 5 stacks): 3% -> 5%      Positive

- Justice duration increase: 2s Small positive

 

What this translates in gameplay to is that if not wasting virtue active effects you have to strike enemies 5 times every 4 seconds, instead of 6 seconds, to keep your Lethal Tempo stacks up, otherwise you lose DPS. This can be surprisingly hard if enemy is ever blocking, invuln or evading. Even if you take the trait and manage to keep the stacks up, you're only rewarded somewhere between 1.9 to 8.7% extra damage which is quite little for a grandmaster trait. (125%/115%= 1.087)

 

Just as a thought, in lot of situations it might be better to run no grandmaster trait on willbender. The 2 other grandmaster traits Phoenix Protocol sacrifices ton of healing and Deathless Courage is pretty much just a 4fun trait. Has there ever existed a traitline where taking no grandmaster trait might just be best solution?

Edited April 12, 2023 by Riba.3271

[draxynnic.3719]

I think the thing to note here is that it only takes half the time to get up to the same bonus you'd get without Tyrant's Momentum, and every additional stack you get after that is gravy. So while it does mean you can lose it faster, but once you DO get back into contact, it also builds up faster, so the net effect in an environment where you can't remain in contact all the time, Tyrant's Momentum helps make the moments where you are in contact count for more.

The increased duration of Justice means that Justice alone, with the attached burn procs, has 67% uptime if used on recharge. If you're running Virtues (and in PvP, you probably are), that becomes just under 80%. So it becomes easier to keep at least one set of Willbender Flames running as any given time, and increases the threat of applying Burning.

Combined with the number of multi-hit attacks available to willbenders, I think the downside is manageable. Yes, you've got 2 less seconds to get five hits in before the buff expires if the enemy kites/blocks/etc, but it doesn't really matter if you lose it when you aren't landing hits anyway, and it ramps back up quickly.

Edited April 13, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Saiyan.1704]

To answer your question, yes, Tyrant's Momentum is a hugely positive effect in sPvP and WvW. The burst damage rivals that of dps Core Guard. Sure 5 hits can be a lot but it only works thanks to the stacks refreshing itself after a single 5th hit of any virtue passive.

Entering any battle with F3 + Whirling Wrath/Symbols/Whirling Light almost always guarantees the uptime of Tyranny stacks. Your F1 and F2 will make these stacks last just long enough to ensure you landed all of your dps skills from weapons & utilities.

What hurts WB in pvp rn is the inability to connect raw damage towards classes that have access to a plethora of evades/blocks/invulns/distorts. If we can't hit anything, we can't deal damage, block with F3, or heal with F2. If we can't do any of that then we'll always have some amount of self-sustain issues. Cata/Virtuoso in Plat2 kind of farms WB rn in sPvP. We have to play stupid well to even be relevant.

[Ezrael.6859]

Willbender Grandmaster traits are kittening kitten.

[Riba.3271]

On 4/13/2023 at 3:45 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

So it becomes easier to keep at least one set of Willbender Flames running as any given time, and increases the threat of applying Burning.

Burning with the marauder + divinity runes radiance build does very little since you're already at 95% crit chance with resolution, and over 100% with both resolution and fury. Even if you get that extra 5% crit chance, it only accounts for 2.5% of damage. And even if it extra 2 seconds of burning applications, it is still maximum 1 burn stack on power build. Of course it is nice to have but realistically during those 6 seconds that you normally have, you would either end up with very fresh stacks or use any other virtue active effect.

Shortened: 2s longer lethal tempo stacks is obviously better than 2s longer virtue active. The burning doesn't matter as it doesn't even come into fruition most of the time and even if it does, it does 1% of enemy healthbar over the course of fight.

 

On 4/13/2023 at 3:45 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

think the thing to note here is that it only takes half the time to get up to the same bonus you'd get without Tyrant's Momentum

It is important to notice that even if the game tooltip says 3% damage increase to each lethal tempo stack, but this is only in PvE and actually is only 2% in PvP/WvW. With 3% it obviously would be worth it, but at 2%, it becomes questionable. If the stacks fall off even once due to reduced duration, the maximum 8.5% damage increase, will sacrifice the incredibly more easier to maintain 15% damage modifier.

 

Point of this thread was to point out my experience that if you want to win long fights or even 1v1s as willbender, you shouldn't be running any grandmaster traits. Obviously if you're facerolling and +1ing every fight like a budget thief, the trait is great to have but why even play willbender at that point? You lose the whole perk of on demand AoE stability and cleanse if you have to waste them to keep the lethal tempo stacks up.

Even if you run the trait, it will be ~5% total damage increase in optimal situation but in almost every situation where upkeeping damage matters it will end up being damage loss. I do not see willbender ever being good pick with the trait if any block skill or skilled kiting makes it hit like a wet noodle.

Obviously the trait being bad it wouldn't be an issue if the other grandmaster traits wouldn't make the other virtue actives thrash, but in the end for power build there are just 2 terrible grandmaster traits, and 1 that ends up slightly negative.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Gaiawolf.8261]

22 hours ago, Ezrael.6859 said:

Willbender Grandmaster traits are kittening kitten.

Yes, but a lot of people are kittening kitten how the traits are kitten. But a lot people think that kitten is kitten instead, so it could go either way. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Gaiawolf.8261

[draxynnic.3719]

@Riba.3271 I think you're misreading the tooltips. Lethal Tempo is one of the few modifiers that is STRONGER in competitive modes, probably partly because it's harder to maintain. In PvE, Lethal Tempo is 2% per stack baseline, and Tyrant's Momentum boosts that to 3% per stack. In competitive, it's 3% baseline, and 5% with Tyrant's Momentum.

So in a scenario where you've lost the stack and you're building it up, with Tyrant's Momentum, you'll match what you'd otherwise cap out at in half the time (remember that using a virtue gives you a stack, so if you've just activated a virtue to close with a target, you only need 4 more stacks to reach 15%, and 2 stacks with Tyrant's Momentum). Meanwhile, in a situation where you are reliably maintaining contact, you're getting up to a whopping 25%, and the longer virtue duration makes you less likely to lose it due to a virtue expiring. The only time you'd be better off without it is when you lose contact and it takes more than 4 seconds but less than 6 to refresh the stack. Any shorter than that, and the Tyrant's Momentum stack has refreshed and you're good. Any longer than that, and you've lost the stack anyway, but Tyrant's Momentum will mean you're better off once you start building it back up.

 

I'm aware that a power build isn't getting that much benefit from Burning (which is why I only spent twelve words on it), but even at low condition damage it's still more damage. The important interaction, though, is what I outlined above. Any additional burning stacks are just the alcohol poured over a Christmas pudding and set alight.

[Riba.3271]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you're misreading the tooltips. Lethal Tempo is one of the few modifiers that is STRONGER in competitive modes, probably partly because it's harder to maintain. In PvE, Lethal Tempo is 2% per stack baseline, and Tyrant's Momentum boosts that to 3% per stack. In competitive, it's 3% baseline, and 5% with Tyrant's Momentum.

So in a scenario where you've lost the stack and you're building it up, with Tyrant's Momentum, you'll match what you'd otherwise cap out at in half the time (remember that using a virtue gives you a stack, so if you've just activated a virtue to close with a target, you only need 4 more stacks to reach 15%, and 2 stacks with Tyrant's Momentum). Meanwhile, in a situation where you are reliably maintaining contact, you're getting up to a whopping 25%, and the longer virtue duration makes you less likely to lose it due to a virtue expiring. The only time you'd be better off without it is when you lose contact and it takes more than 4 seconds but less than 6 to refresh the stack. Any shorter than that, and the Tyrant's Momentum stack has refreshed and you're good. Any longer than that, and you've lost the stack anyway, but Tyrant's Momentum will mean you're better off once you start building it back up.

 

I'm aware that a power build isn't getting that much benefit from Burning (which is why I only spent twelve words on it), but even at low condition damage it's still more damage. The important interaction, though, is what I outlined above. Any additional burning stacks are just the alcohol poured over a Christmas pudding and set alight.

No, I see it as it is. You are choosing between:

- 50% longer lethal tempo stacks

or

- 8.7% more damage with maximum lethal tempo stacks.

 

Now as I said, if you're playing like a budget thief, Tyrant's momentum isn't a bad choice. Waste some virtues to refresh stacks and you're golden. But is wasting virtue active effects really worth the 8.7% damage?... Answer is: No.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

No, I see it as it is. You are choosing between:

- 50% longer lethal tempo stacks

or

- 8.7% more damage with maximum lethal tempo stacks.

 

Now as I said, if you're playing like a budget thief, Tyrant's momentum isn't a bad choice. Waste some virtues to refresh stacks and you're golden. But is wasting virtue active effects really worth the 8.7% damage?... Answer is: No.

All stacks refresh whenever another stack is added. As long as you can refresh the stack every four seconds, you can keep a full stack indefinitely.

The only time you're better off without Tyrant's Momentum is that two-second window I mentioned - when it takes more than 4 seconds and less than 6 to get five hits or to activate a virtue in order to refresh the stacks. Otherwise, Tyrant's Momentum causes Lethal Tempo to ramp faster and reach a higher total.

That 2s window is the only time you're better off without it. Refresh your stack before that window, and you're better off with the trait. If that window expires, you're better off with the trait. It's not about percentages. It's two seconds. And guardian/willbender has plenty of multihit attack to renew the stacks with - heck, an autoattack chain.

As for being a budget thief - limiting the potential for that is pretty much exactly why Lethal Tempo exists, I suspect. It reduces the willbender's ability to jump on someone and gank them right away while rewarding them for sustained combat. Which is not to say that the balance is right at the moment, but that doesn't mean that Tyrant's Momentum is so bad that you're better off with no GM trait at all as you claim. Unless you're ending up in that 2s window a lot, you should be better off overall with it.