Potential issues with our new boon dps specs!

[anbujackson.9564]

27 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

I am not sure if you realize how berserker will give quickness? It will give quickness with burst skills which is very problematic because the axe set uses one like every second. If they make the base duration too short condi berserker would be unplayable and if they make it too long you would be looking at a 36k+ dps quick berserker because the only thing berserker has to sacrifice for quick is a 10% dmg mod. No utility or anything.

We will see how it turns out but it might lack other boons but it will excel in that one area pretty hard. especially if it can take m/m on swap for cc. It does NOT need banners for quick anymore. In fact banners wont provide any quick at all anymore.

I expect some ICD with the appropriate duration. I dont like those passive boon generations though. You just do what you always do and give boons while doing it. Oh well. As power you can drop strength for tactics and run PS or something. So might and quickness. Too bad that almost every heal alac provides enough might. 

Banner of tactics still has base quickness application btw. But yeah why waste your utility for that.

[Nephalem.8921]

5 minutes ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

I expect some ICD with the appropriate duration. I dont like those passive boon generations though. You just do what you always do and give boons while doing it. Oh well. As power you can drop strength for tactics and run PS or something. So might and quickness. Too bad that almost every heal alac provides enough might. 

Banner of tactics still has base quickness application btw. But yeah why waste your utility for that.

Cd would be horrible. there is not a single icd trait that feels nice gameplay wise. especially if it would be on this. it would also destroy the basic f1 heal f1 combo

[anbujackson.9564]

21 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Cd would be horrible. there is not a single icd trait that feels nice gameplay wise. especially if it would be on this. it would also destroy the basic f1 heal f1 combo

True. Guess its just waiting until patch day to test that.

The problem would be if they nerf berserker damage if support dps is too high. We dont want another scourge fiesta.

[feeper.5287]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

I am not sure if you realize how berserker will give quickness? It will give quickness with burst skills which is very problematic because the axe set uses one like every second. If they make the base duration too short condi berserker would be unplayable and if they make it too long you would be looking at a 36k+ dps quick berserker because the only thing berserker has to sacrifice for quick is a 10% dmg mod. No utility or anything.

We will see how it turns out but it might lack other boons but it will excel in that one area pretty hard. especially if it can take m/m on swap for cc. It does NOT need banners for quick anymore. In fact banners wont provide any quick at all anymore.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea I don't know how it's going to apply quickness. I know banners won't provide quick anymore which is a good thing as they can be used reactively now. We don't know the base quickness duration so yes depending on that condi quick might not work but we won't know until later. I completely agree that tying quickness to bursting is problematic. What I'm saying is Berserker is very greedy with its utility skills because it needs them to extend its berserk uptime. In a patch where they wanted to free up boon dps builds utility slots, they created a build that has them entirely locked down. I'm assuming power quick Berserker would run Blood Reckoning, Outrage, Might Signet, Wild Blow and Headbutt as a baseline. You can swap out the signet fairly easily but I don't see it being very fun to lose Outrage and/or Wild Blow for more utility when it gimps your berserk uptime which will lead to playability issues. Having to choose between keeping quickness up and then potentially delaying another berserk isn't something most players are gonna enjoy I'd wager 😮

[Arewn.2368]

I mentioned this in the other thread, but this basically means warrior support is at a dead end.

It seems like they aren't going to release any new elite specs for the foreseeable future. So no real hope for a support espec. And neither Berserker nor Bladesworn are mechanically compatible with being a support focused build. Their spec mechanics are far too rigid to provide the flexibility needed for a support focused build. Both in terms of available utility skill slots, and in terms of how they play.

So they'll really JUST be an alacrity and a quickness build. With no viable build options for a more heavily support focused build.

SpellBreaker, is the only warrior espec that really has room for a functional support build.

In terms of game play, it has a pretty loose rotation with a short loop. It isn't dependant on any utility skills to build or maintain a resource or state. And its spec mechanic is designed around firing off two types of 1-bar bursts, which would make it easier to offer support through them. It also has plenty of design space available in its utility category, meditations, which are in need of an update/rework anyways.

The only problem left to solve would be the fact that bursts require adrenaline, which decays to zero out of combat. But that is easily remedied if they change it to work like Revenant energy, wherein it normalized to a "middle amount" when out of combat (I'm NOT referring to the upkeep mechanic here).

So they could just change it so that Adrenaline increases/decreases to 10 when out of combat.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Double standards won't apply quickness. They never said that Banner of Tactics won't anymore.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

So like...

Why not just make burst of aggression refresh quick applied by primals and stack duration?

What's the purpose of the new heat the soul when you can give Bloody Roar the ability to share the quickness applied by Burst of Aggression on top of it proccing the resi.

I guess it would mean that condi zerker will not be able to play quickness, but why do all the kittening specs need to play alac or quickness? 

Just buff condi zerker to do more damage than power zerk if the latter can share quickness.

They are literally introducing a condi damage increase of 20 kittenING PERCENT in a Master trait..... AND THE GRANDMASTER IS 10% STRIKE DMG %%%%%%

20% ferocity increase in zerk is nothing if you don't crit cap. Guess what, this update does not fix power zerker playing without Signet of Fury.

This update doesn't change the signet trait with passives existing between uses. They don't even rework the signets themselves. They won't even make the crit chance increase for zerker unconditional and put it in a mjnor trait.....

 

Total trash.

[Nephalem.8921]

8 minutes ago, feeper.5287 said:

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea I don't know how it's going to apply quickness. I know banners won't provide quick anymore which is a good thing as they can be used reactively now. We don't know the base quickness duration so yes depending on that condi quick might not work but we won't know until later. I completely agree that tying quickness to bursting is problematic. What I'm saying is Berserker is very greedy with its utility skills because it needs them to extend its berserk uptime. In a patch where they wanted to free up boon dps builds utility slots, they created a build that has them entirely locked down. I'm assuming power quick Berserker would run Blood Reckoning, Outrage, Might Signet, Wild Blow and Headbutt as a baseline. You can swap out the signet fairly easily but I don't see it being very fun to lose Outrage and/or Wild Blow for more utility when it gimps your berserk uptime which will lead to playability issues. Having to choose between keeping quickness up and then potentially delaying another berserk isn't something most players are gonna enjoy I'd wager 😮

Its in the patchnotes. A new trait will provide quickness on burst skill usage. Also no quick on banners anymore besides tactics maybe.

[feeper.5287]

1 minute ago, Arewn.2368 said:

I mentioned this in the other thread, but this basically means warrior support is at a dead end.

It seems like they aren't going to release any new elite specs for the foreseeable future. So no real hope for a support espec. And neither Berserker nor Bladesworn are mechanically compatible with being a support focused build. Their spec mechanics are far too rigid to provide the flexibility needed for a support focused build. Both in terms of available utility skill slots, and in terms of how they play.

So they'll really JUST be an alacrity and a quickness build. With no viable build options for a more heavily support focused build.

SpellBreaker, is the only warrior espec that really has room for a functional support build.

In terms of game play, it has a pretty loose rotation with a short loop. It isn't dependant on any utility skills to build or maintain a resource or state. And its spec mechanic is designed around firing off two types of 1-bar bursts, which would make it easier to offer support through them. It also has plenty of design space available in its utility category, meditations, which are in need of an update/rework anyways.

The only problem left to solve would be the fact that bursts require adrenaline, which decays to zero out of combat. But that is easily remedied if they change it to work like Revenant energy, wherein it normalized to a "middle amount" when out of combat (I'm NOT referring to the upkeep mechanic here).

So they could just change it so that Adrenaline increases/decreases to 10 when out of combat.

I think I saw your post/thread! I agree w/pretty much everything you've said. The only two utilities SPB "needs" I'd say are Assassin's Signet and technically Winds for your stacks of Attackers Insight at the start of a fight but that's such a small optimization it's irrelevant. It's really just the precision signet as w/out other gear or legendaries it might not be easy for people to slap on enough assassin's gear to make up for the precision loss. Even so, who really cares. Bringing boons that help your party deal with mechanics is way more important than dps. I like your idea about having us rest at one bar of adrenaline. Worst case we have "To The Limit" but that could be kinda scuffed xD. Reworking Revenge Counter and meditations seems like the most logical place to go imo but I guess Anet feels otherwise? 

[feeper.5287]

3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

So like...

Why not just make burst of aggression refresh quick applied by primals and stack duration?

What's the purpose of the new heat the soul when you can give Bloody Roar the ability to share the quickness applied by Burst of Aggression on top of it proccing the resi.

I guess it would mean that condi zerker will not be able to play quickness, but why do all the kittening specs need to play alac or quickness? 

Just buff condi zerker to do more damage than power zerk if the latter can share quickness.

They are literally introducing a condi damage increase of 20 kittenING PERCENT in a Master trait..... AND THE GRANDMASTER IS 10% STRIKE DMG %%%%%%

20% ferocity increase in zerk is nothing if you don't crit cap. Guess what, this update does not fix power zerker playing without Signet of Fury.

This update doesn't change the signet trait with passives existing between uses. They don't even rework the signets themselves. They won't even make the crit chance increase for zerker unconditional and put it in a mjnor trait.....

 

Total trash.

xD

I think those are solid points. I agree, not every class needs to have access to both quickness and alacrity. Maybe every class should have access to at least one though? Ultimately the issue is quick and alac are so powerful they completely warp the meta around having 100% uptime on them so other "flavors" of support don't exist. I'm fine w/how it is now but every class having access to one of quick and alac is probably a good thing...? As long as the implementation isn't silly *shrugs*

[Imperial.8471]

The easy answer to the burst cooldown difference between power and condi berzerker is to have the duration of the quickness applied by burst skills dependent on the skill. Decapitate wouldn't give as much quickness as the longbow burst to compensate it's much shorter cooldown.

And according to the preview Banner of Tactics still gives quickness, but it's only 5s with a 30s cooldown. Unless you really want to go with 5 warriors anyway each with the banner, I'm not sure that's worth much. Same for Charge on warhorn, 2s on a 20s cooldown is not worth losing the dps you'd get from any other weapon

[Nephalem.8921]

24 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

So like...

Why not just make burst of aggression refresh quick applied by primals and stack duration?

What's the purpose of the new heat the soul when you can give Bloody Roar the ability to share the quickness applied by Burst of Aggression on top of it proccing the resi.

I guess it would mean that condi zerker will not be able to play quickness, but why do all the kittening specs need to play alac or quickness? 

Just buff condi zerker to do more damage than power zerk if the latter can share quickness.

They are literally introducing a condi damage increase of 20 kittenING PERCENT in a Master trait..... AND THE GRANDMASTER IS 10% STRIKE DMG %%%%%%

20% ferocity increase in zerk is nothing if you don't crit cap. Guess what, this update does not fix power zerker playing without Signet of Fury.

This update doesn't change the signet trait with passives existing between uses. They don't even rework the signets themselves. They won't even make the crit chance increase for zerker unconditional and put it in a mjnor trait.....

 

Total trash.

It is not a 20% condi dmg increase. Condi dmg traits are additive which results in it being less strong than it seems. Power zerker plays without signet of fury for a while now.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

4 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It is not a 20% condi dmg increase. Condi dmg traits are additive which results in it being less strong than it seems. Power zerker plays without signet of fury for a while now.

Sorry was it no 10% dmg increase plus 10% under zerk mode (aka double)

Also signet of fury in comp, idk much about pve tho I still doubt power zerker can easily play without it.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Sorry was it no 10% dmg increase plus 10% under zerk mode (aka double)

Also signet of fury in comp, idk much about pve tho I still doubt power zerker can easily play without it.

I can easily play without signet. You just play with thief runes which get buffed soon to not require flanking on bosses anymore. bonus will always be active. Like i wrote a trait providing 20% inceased condi dmg does actually not result in you doing 20% more condi dmg. The wonders of additive modifiers where you need a calculator to know how much dmg you will be doing with x trait. It is still a strong trait but condi dmg mods are deceiving.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Just now, Nephalem.8921 said:

I can easily play without signet. You just play with thief runes which get buffed soon to not require flanking on bosses anymore. bonus will always be active. Like i wrote a trait providing 20% inceased condi dmg does actually not result in you doing 20% more condi dmg. The wonders of additive modifiers where you need a calculator to know how much dmg you will be doing with x trait. It is still a strong trait but condi dmg mods are deceiving.

In any case Bloody Roar mad underpowered and Burst of Aggression loses a lot of uniqueness. It needed to refresh on primals and have the resistance from Bloody roar. 

Then you could work out a better quickness trait without messing up zerker even more.

[Nephalem.8921]

23 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

In any case Bloody Roar mad underpowered and Burst of Aggression loses a lot of uniqueness. It needed to refresh on primals and have the resistance from Bloody roar. 

Then you could work out a better quickness trait without messing up zerker even more.

Bloody roar is 25% in pve now and will get nerfed to 20% to compensate the other buff which results in -0.5% nerf total or something. Bloody roar is currently multiplicative and does increase power dps by 20% exactly as stated. It is one of the strongest gm pve traits in the game currently.

[feeper.5287]

27 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

I can easily play without signet. You just play with thief runes which get buffed soon to not require flanking on bosses anymore. bonus will always be active. Like i wrote a trait providing 20% inceased condi dmg does actually not result in you doing 20% more condi dmg. The wonders of additive modifiers where you need a calculator to know how much dmg you will be doing with x trait. It is still a strong trait but condi dmg mods are deceiving.

For instanced PvE, you shouldn't need thief runes to crit cap. You can go scholar with full zerker armor and one or two assassin's pieces and crit cap in berserk mode. No accuracy sigil either. You are giga overcapping crit with thief runes when you go into berserk mode

[Nephalem.8921]

1 minute ago, feeper.5287 said:

For instanced PvE, you shouldn't need thief runes to crit cap. You can go scholar with full zerker armor and one or two assassin's pieces and crit cap in berserk mode. No accuracy sigil either. You are giga overcapping crit with thief runes when you go into berserk mode

True was thinking of bladesworn i guess. yes berserker does not need a lot of additional precision.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

19 hours ago, JTGuevara.9018 said:

 

Amazing, isn't it? EVERY class has a viable boon support build EXCEPT for warrior.

And thief. Nope! Support specter is viable. It can give out multiple boons from its wells (AoEs) plus barrier. That means only warrior is left out in the cold.

For warrior to give out anything other than quickness it has to sacrifice damage for concentration.

It isn't even about just exclusively boon support builds, its just access to boons in general. The hoops Warrior has to jump through and what they have to sacrifice to still not get anywhere near the tools available to other classes is actually nonsensical.

In my opinion a lot of the issues with that could be resolved if they updated Adrenaline into the modern era for this game, because as it functions now might be fine in PvE, but in PvP the "on hit" stipulations associated with burst skills to get the things a class needs to sufficiently fight in competitive modes just does not work well. Any PvPer with a modicum of experience of above average can just completely negate Warriors ability to access these things because of blinds, blocks, evades, dodges, invulns, etc while all of these classes are still just leaking boons onto themselves.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Bloody roar is 25% in pve now and will get nerfed to 20% to compensate the other buff which results in -0.5% nerf total or something. Bloody roar is currently multiplicative and does increase power dps by 20% exactly as stated. It is one of the strongest gm pve traits in the game currently.

I see.

Doesn't matter to me. Comp is what I care about.

[Tharan.9085]

cdps berserker and condi qberserker are gonna be insanely good next patch

[feeper.5287]

13 hours ago, Tharan.9085 said:

cdps berserker and condi qberserker are gonna be insanely good next patch

"Good" meaning what? I don't play much condi Berserker so I won't speak to full dps condi zerk but I see condi quick suffering from the same issue as power quick in that yes it will theoretically do a lot of dps and provide quickness, but that's it. Having to kitten your berserk uptime just by swapping out one utility slot for say a banner or something else just isn't gonna be a fun trade off. Losing dps for more utility is fine but other specs don't have their fundamental playstyle and rotation completely warped because they took SYG instead of a dps utility skill (for example). Berserker is very gimmicky already and this current implementation of quickness isn't going to be very enjoyable to play or flexible enough to bring actual value IMO. I'd take a boon dps or even full dps that can provide meaningful boons (stability, aegis, prot, resistance, etc.) even if it does 5k less dps than something that has huge pump but no utility.

Happy to be wrong though!

[Tharan.9085]

2 hours ago, feeper.5287 said:

"Good" meaning what? I don't play much condi Berserker so I won't speak to full dps condi zerk but I see condi quick suffering from the same issue as power quick in that yes it will theoretically do a lot of dps and provide quickness, but that's it. Having to kitten your berserk uptime just by swapping out one utility slot for say a banner or something else just isn't gonna be a fun trade off. Losing dps for more utility is fine but other specs don't have their fundamental playstyle and rotation completely warped because they took SYG instead of a dps utility skill (for example). Berserker is very gimmicky already and this current implementation of quickness isn't going to be very enjoyable to play or flexible enough to bring actual value IMO. I'd take a boon dps or even full dps that can provide meaningful boons (stability, aegis, prot, resistance, etc.) even if it does 5k less dps than something that has huge pump but no utility.

Happy to be wrong though!

I am looking at it from a speedrun standpoint, from which the class seems to be great with insane dmg and quickness application.

[feeper.5287]

1 hour ago, Tharan.9085 said:

I am looking at it from a speedrun standpoint, from which the class seems to be great with insane dmg and quickness application.

Aahh yeah from that PoV I can totally see it for sure!