Let's discuss Quickness and Alacrity.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Power mech does no damage and condi mech has no burst and limited cc.

Well my point still stands regardless There are classes that can do the same thing that spellbreaker and Bladesworn can offer. But better, and offer more in most instances. Bladesworn and spellbreaker only got one thing going for them. The Insane burst, and the boon ripping. Take those two away and you'll find two of those elite spec extremely lacking.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

No sane person would play mech over spellbreaker on sloth/sama or in 99/98cm.

 

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

No i do play all specs depending on boss and swap depending on what utility is needed. 

And classes like Mesmer only role for a certain fight is to give you access to portal? Nothing else?

 

1 hour ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

We had that in the past. resulted in a lot of fixed raid spots because you wanted the unique buffs. Also all healers without a unique buff were basically unplayable. How is giving every spec a unique class not homogenisation?

Because at the very least, a class had something to offer back then. They can help the group their own way.

Now, we have Anet who absolutely destroyed Scourge for a buff that NO ONE ASK FOR. They were fine without Alac, and the very moment Alac touched scourge, Anet gutted everything about Scourge that made it unique. Not a single necro main are happy with that change. Not a single one wanted Alac. What happened with Scourge IS Homogenization. It doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. I'd rather choose fixed raid spots over what's happening now. Everything is is becoming the same. It's getting greyer, and duller as we speak.

 

 

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Do the math. Alac is vastly overrated. It is still beneficial to have it in a group were everyone is on the the same skill level but if you have underperforming dps and a really strong dps player on alac duty it might be higher group dps to let the alac swap to pure dps.

In fractals the alac dps in some cases offer so little damage contribution that running with a 4th dps would result in faster clears instead of carrying the 3k dps support. If the group has a quick healer and the alac is not at least doing 50% of the dps it is not really worth the spot.

At that point, you're underplaying the important of alac.  Alac is still strong at the end of the day. Players underperforming has absolutely no barring on why Alac is so strong. Yes, It's less effective on those type of players who can't do well, but that's more of the player's problem than the alac's problem.

And I don't know why you're using Fractals as part of your argument. Alacity is a long term buff. It's going have noticeable effects in a long term battle. Alac is going to have a more of a effect against a boss than some group of trash mob that gets gibbed in a few second.

[xellink.7568]

7 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Well my point still stands regardless There are classes that can do the same thing that spellbreaker and Bladesworn can offer. But better, and offer more in most instances. Bladesworn and spellbreaker only got one thing going for them. The Insane burst, and the boon ripping. Take those two away and you'll find two of those elite spec extremely lacking.

And classes like Mesmer only role for a certain fight is to give you access to portal? Nothing else?

Because at the very least, a class had something to offer back then. They can help the group their own way.
 

Lol. If we extrapolate what you are saying it sounds extremely stupid. Take res away from heal scourge. Take portal away from Mesmer. Take burning away from guardian, take elemental attunement away from Elementalists.

Every class has its signature. And of course if you take away the signature there's nothing special under it.

[Nephalem.8921]

12 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

And classes like Mesmer only role for a certain fight is to give you access to portal? Nothing else?

And range on virtu. And focus pull. And currently confu dps which they will sadly destroy.

12 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Because at the very least, a class had something to offer back then. They can help the group their own way.

Now, we have Anet who absolutely destroyed Scourge for a buff that NO ONE ASK FOR. They were fine without Alac, and the very moment Alac touched scourge, Anet gutted everything about Scourge that made it unique. Not a single necro main are happy with that change. Not a single one wanted Alac. What happened with Scourge IS Homogenization. It doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. I'd rather choose fixed raid spots over what's happening now. Everything is is becoming the same. It's getting greyer, and duller as we speak.
 

Isnt the only nerf some missing expertise on shades which might get addressed? The disgusting rez build should have been nuked ages ago.

12 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 

At that point, you're underplaying the important of alac.  Alac is still strong at the end of the day. Players underperforming has absolutely no barring on why Alac is so strong. Yes, It's less effective on those type of players who can't do well, but that's more of the player's problem than the alac's problem.

And I don't know why you're using Fractals as part of your argument. Alacity is a long term buff. It's going have noticeable effects in a long term battle. Alac is going to have a more of a effect against a boss than some group of trash mob that gets gibbed in a few second.

Why is it strong? Because you feel so? i brought the fractal example because 3-5k dps rens were extremely common at one point. They are not that common in raids but same applies there. A 5k dps alac who is not a healer is bad in raids too. Also nobody cares about normal t4s at this point. I only mean cms where performance matters a little. T4 fractals are a joke with current powercreep.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it would make more sense to remove the boons and nerf boss hp

[Nephalem.8921]

2 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

it would make more sense to remove the boons and nerf boss hp

Back to 5dps meta? That would be extremely boring. Worse than what we had in 2012 with 4 warr 1mes because at least you had a mes.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

7 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Lol. If we extrapolate what you are saying it sounds extremely stupid. Take res away from heal scourge. Take portal away from Mesmer. Take burning away from guardian, take elemental attunement away from Elementalists.

Every class has its signature. And of course if you take away the signature there's nothing special under it.

But it happened with Heal scourge. Anet took away their most Class defining aspect to them in exchanged for alacrity. A buff they didn't need. Look at youtube, Subreddit when they released the june 27 patch note. Hell, Look at the patch notes themselves. Look at OP's Post reaction. Everyone, Everyone honestly believes the game is becoming the same, more homogenized. People are feeling classes are losing their identity. People are now realizing the dangerous precedent this is setting, that has already been sent.

 

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Isnt the only nerf some missing expertise on shades which might get addressed? The disgusting rez build should have been nuked ages ago.

So much for diversity you've been preaching about, huh? No making small adjustment or anything like that? You're just satisfied with nuking a Play-style to a point it's no longer viable in this day and age. A playstyle that only really shine with Players under preforming A play-style that doesn't even affect you at the end of the day. It has Alac, it's fine, right?  How out of touch do you have to be to make a comment like that?

Lets get this out of the way. Anet didn't nerf Scourge in the most heavy handed way because it was overperforming, it would have been "Nuked" a long time ago otherwise. It was nerfed so Anet can give it alac. They said so in their following post
 

On 6/8/2023 at 5:12 PM, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

Scourge has always been intended to be a viable support option, but the lack of quickness or alacrity has held it back in endgame content outside of specific cases. That won't be an issue anymore, as we've adjusted Desert Empowerment to be that source of alacrity. With scourge support likely becoming more viable in general use, we felt that its reviving power was just a bit too high and have made some adjustments to bring it more in line. We'll be keeping a very close eye on alacrity scourge's performance and will follow up as needed.

.It's ironic too that they think Alac scourge is going to overperform even with the the Heavy nerf they got. The only thing they're taking a "Close eye on" Is the low scourge count will be once Players stop playing scourge.

 

2 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Why is it strong? Because you feel so? i brought the fractal example because 3-5k dps rens were extremely common at one point. They are not that common in raids but same applies there. A 5k dps alac who is not a healer is bad in raids too. Also nobody cares about normal t4s at this point. I only mean cms where performance matters a little. T4 fractals are a joke with current powercreep.

So you're judging the strength of alacrity by using a 3-5k Alac dps as a example? And you don't think Alac doesn't contribute to the powercreep at all? Or why t4 Fractals are Easy?

I feel like I'm wasting my time here, so I'm gonna move on.

[xellink.7568]

44 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

But it happened with Heal scourge. Anet took away their most Class defining aspect to them in exchanged for alacrity. A buff they didn't need. Look at youtube, Subreddit when they released the june 27 patch note. Hell, Look at the patch notes themselves. Look at OP's Post reaction. Everyone, Everyone honestly believes the game is becoming the same, more homogenized. People are feeling classes are losing their identity. People are now realizing the dangerous precedent this is setting, that has already been sent.

They arent removing it, they are nerfing it. There still isn't an alternative for boneskinner. It will still be a class defining feature.

Look, they nerfed consume shadows by more than half as well. But that didn't stop people from playing spectre. 

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

 

So much for diversity you've been preaching about, huh? No making small adjustment or anything like that? You're just satisfied with nuking a Play-style to a point it's no longer viable in this day and age. A playstyle that only really shine with Players under preforming A play-style that doesn't even affect you at the end of the day. It has Alac, it's fine, right?  How out of touch do you have to be to make a comment like that?

Lets get this out of the way. Anet didn't nerf Scourge in the most heavy handed way because it was overperforming, it would have been "Nuked" a long time ago otherwise. It was nerfed so Anet can give it alac. They said so in their following post
 

.It's ironic too that they think Alac scourge is going to overperform even with the the Heavy nerf they got. The only thing they're taking a "Close eye on" Is the low scourge count will be once Players stop playing scourge.

Rez scourge is used to brute force encounters. It is so powerful that it can carry completely clueless players through encounters. There should be consequences to deaths and failed mechanics. Scourge nullified them. W7 was cleared within a little over an hour just because of this spec alone. SC had 2 teams. One tryhard team which took 2-3h to clear it after release and one more relaxed team with a rez scourge which cleared within 1h30.

If this spec can have such on impact on extremely good players it is even way worse for the average player. Simply write what scourge offers currently. Mass revive on almost no cd. This should have never existed in the first place. Also a reason why you have to ask for obscene amounts of kp. You never know how many cheesed everything with a rez scourge and never had to learn mechanics. It is banned from raid trainings for this reason too. You dont have to learn mechanics with a rezscourge. Just brute force rez through it.

I exploited that too during w6 release. Nobody had a clue what to do but doesnt matter scourge rezzed everyone after a failed mechanic anyways.

1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

So you're judging the strength of alacrity by using a 3-5k Alac dps as a example? And you don't think Alac doesn't contribute to the powercreep at all? Or why t4 Fractals are Easy?

I feel like I'm wasting my time here, so I'm gonna move on.

Reading is hard i guess. I brought the example because some people belief that it is a 50% dps buff or something while it adds ~16% per player. Sometimes less if the spec is more auto attack focussed. Removing it would not even affect encounters that much because you could replace the alac supp with another dps. It would make some specs unfun to play though and remove even more theorycrafting for endgame players. One step closer to pure dps meta which casuals really did not like during core dungeon days. People really want to play support.

T4 fractals are easy even without quickness or alacrity. They are balanced for like 15k dps per player while some reach 80k+ during burst spikes now.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Nephalem.8921]

26 minutes ago, xellink.7568 said:

They arent removing it, they are nerfing it. There still isn't an alternative for boneskinner. It will still be a class defining feature.

Look, they nerfed consume shadows by more than half as well. But that didn't stop people from playing spectre. 

I outhealed some pure healers as a ritu specter while doing competetive dps at the same time.

Consume shadows was that busted. Sustain in general was way too high before eod. im glad they nerfed those traits. Deva ren had like 3k self heal per sec on a full dps build. It was disgusting. And of course some people cried when it got nerfed to reasonable levels.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Nephalem.8921

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

They arent removing it, they are nerfing it. There still isn't an alternative for boneskinner. It will still be a class defining feature.

Look, they nerfed consume shadows by more than half as well. But that didn't stop people from playing spectre. 

Dude, they legit removing their option to corrupt boon. One of their defining features, something that made them unique. It's in the patch notes man, Come on. There is a nerf, and there is taking away options, so they can fit in with every other class that does the exact same thing. That is completely different compared to Consume shadows being cut by more than half.




 

 

45 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Rez scourge is used to brute force encounters. It is so powerful that it can carry completely clueless players through encounters. There should be consequences to deaths and failed mechanics. Scourge nullified them. W7 was cleared within a little over an hour just because of this spec alone. SC has 2 teams. One tryhard team which took 2-3h to clear it after release and one more relaxed team with a rez scourge.

If this spec can have such on impact on extremely good players it is even way worse for the average player. Simply write what scourge offers currently. Mass revive on almost no cd. This should have never existed in the first place. Also a reason why you have to ask for obscene amounts of kp. You never know how many cheesed everything with a rez scourge and never had to learn mechanics. It is banned from raid trainings for this reason too. You dont have to learn mechanics with a rezscourge. Just brute force rez through it.

I exploited that too during w6 release. Nobody had a clue what to do but doesnt matter scourge rezzed everyone after a failed mechanic anyways.

Then you change the fight to prevent this. Or you make it so you're only limited to 3 downstate for every pull. You don't nerf the class of their ability to mass rez. In CM of harvest temple, a lot of the mechanic straight up kill you. Not put you in a down state. Do something like that. And if Rezzing is still an issue on Scourge, Increase the cooldown. Make small adjustment. Not this series of garbage nerfs.

 

45 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

Reading is hard i guess. I brought the example because some people belief that it is a 50% dps buff or something while it adds ~16% per player. Sometimes less if the spec is more auto attack focussed. Removing it would not even affect encounters that much because you could replace the alac supp with another dps. It would make some specs unfun to play though and remove even more theorycrafting for endgame players. One step closer to pure dps meta which casuals really did not like during core dungeon days. People really want to play support.

T4 fractals are easy even without quickness or alacrity. They are balanced for like 15k dps per player while some reach 80k+ during burst spikes now.

I think the problem is that you're looking at this from a dps perceptive. Alac can do a lot more than boost dps dude. It can boost Hps too, Let you pump out skills that  has more utility. Like Cc. It is a lot stronger than you're making it out to be.

And quite frankly, Fractals is a bit outdated design wise. Strike and raids nowadays are designed with these two buff in mind, which is The REAL problem imo.

Edited June 25, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[xellink.7568]

13 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Dude, they legit removing their option to corrupt boon. One of their defining features, something that made them unique. It's in the patch notes man, Come on. There is a nerf, and there is taking away options, so they can fit in with every other class that does the exact same thing. That is completely different compared to Consume shadows being cut by more than half.

And scourge can still run boneskinner, it is clunky now so maybe we need 2 scourges to properly pug boneskinner. Its the reason why i would specifically ask for a HS. Thats the highest respect you can get, the same respect as a tower chrono. 

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

6 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

And scourge can still run boneskinner, it is clunky now so maybe we need 2 scourges to properly pug boneskinner. Its the reason why i would specifically ask for a HS. Thats the highest respect you can get, the same respect as a tower chrono. 

Great, Scourge can still run boneskinner. Woopty doo. Like that matters. Like that's actually relevant. I'm glad Scourge are being pigeonhole towards boneskinner.

It's time to stop sugar coating the truth, and see things how it really is, and how how much of a bad precedent this set for the future.

[xellink.7568]

13 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

Great, Scourge can still run boneskinner. Woopty doo. Like that matters. Like that's actually relevant. I'm glad Scourge are being pigeonhole towards boneskinner.

It's time to stop sugar coating the truth, and see things how it really is, and how how much of a bad precedent this set for the future.

Its nice to be identified to carry a certain mechanic. Like thieves can open samarog's door, and even thats not as nice as scourge's heal. Thief has otherwise low level contribution to group fights and does not increase success of raid clear by much, compared to say, guardian, or scourge. Even boon thief is certainly not meant to be played in its current state.

Warrior, ele and many other classes doesn't have that kind of mechanic where they get special privileges on certain fights.

So I'm no apologetic for my statements. Scourge will still perform okay as alac support and alac dps. I can guarantee you that scourge will be more reliable than alac willbender for most raid situations.

[The Boz.2038]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

I can guarantee you that scourge will be more reliable than alac willbender for most raid situations.

Low bar is buried in the ground. 
You literally need a shovel for it.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

Its nice to be identified to carry a certain mechanic. Like thieves can open samarog's door, and even thats not as nice as scourge's heal. Thief has otherwise low level contribution to group fights and does not increase success of raid clear by much, compared to say, guardian, or scourge. Even boon thief is certainly not meant to be played in its current state.

Warrior, ele and many other classes doesn't have that kind of mechanic where they get special privileges on certain fights.

So what, Warrior, Ele and other classes should be some kind of one trick pony, Just like Scourge and thief? "Hey Thief, Thank you for opening that pesky door. Now go on, Shoo. We don't need you anymore." It's like throwing someone away after they outlived their usefulness. And you think this is fine?

 

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

Scourge will still perform okay as alac support and alac dps. I can guarantee you that scourge will be more reliable than alac willbender for most raid situations.

Lmao, It's like you're not even paying attention. I don't even think you know what scourge is actually capable of, if you think it will have any relevancy after the patch in the next few hours.
 

[The Boz.2038]

10 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

"Hey Thief, Thank you for opening that pesky door. Now go on, Shoo. We don't need you anymore." It's like throwing someone away after they outlived their usefulness. And you think this is fine?

TBH 90% of my W4 played out exactly like this. "Hold up, lemme swap to thief. There, done, lemme swap back."

[xellink.7568]

6 hours ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

So what, Warrior, Ele and other classes should be some kind of one trick pony, Just like Scourge and thief? "Hey Thief, Thank you for opening that pesky door. Now go on, Shoo. We don't need you anymore." It's like throwing someone away after they outlived their usefulness. And you think this is fine?

Lmao, It's like you're not even paying attention. I don't even think you know what scourge is actually capable of, if you think it will have any relevancy after the patch in the next few hours.
 

More relevant than thief?

6 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

TBH 90% of my W4 played out exactly like this. "Hold up, lemme swap to thief. There, done, lemme swap back."

That's my point. It's still not the worst least relevant class. Otherwise you won't even bother swapping back.

My point is that there are classes that deserve to complain more than scourge for being irrelevant. Starting with core. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by xellink.7568

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

58 minutes ago, xellink.7568 said:

More relevant than thief?

The Scourge nerf is FAR more relevant than than whatever nerf thief got lmao.

Imagine if Anet got rid of every source of invisibility from thief so they can justify making it a strong asset. Not nerf it, remove it.

Imagine. Removing stealth. Removing invisibility, from a rouge class? Their entire identity is sneaking around and relying on misdirection to beat their opponents? It doesn't matter if they can be best of the best in raids, Thief is KNOWN for their ability to stealth, As pain in the kitten to deal with in wvw, It is something they are known for. It is something they SHOULD do. This is a example btw, don't let it go to your head.

That's what happened with scourge, and more insultingly, necromancer as a whole. They legit removed Boon corruption. Boon corruption, from their base kit, A Class known for corrupting people and getting people back from the grave. At that point, it doesn't matter how well scourge will do at this point, despite the fact that playing scourge will be awful in a couple of minutes. You removed a key defining ability from them, for Alacrity. A boon Not a single necro player cared for, or ask for, and did just fine without, and other classes can just pump out better.

But it honestly seems to me that you want every class to be cookie cutter with nothing unique about them outside of being one trick ponies. As long it preform raids, what does it matter, right?

Edited June 27, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[xellink.7568]

1 hour ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

The Scourge nerf is FAR more relevant than than whatever nerf thief got lmao.

Imagine if Anet got rid of every source of invisibility from thief so they can justify making it a strong asset. Not nerf it, remove it.

Imagine. Removing stealth. Removing invisibility, from a rouge class? Their entire identity is sneaking around and relying on misdirection to beat their opponents? It doesn't matter if they can be best of the best in raids, Thief is KNOWN for their ability to stealth, As pain in the kitten to deal with in wvw, It is something they are known for. It is something they SHOULD do. This is a example btw, don't let it go to your head.

That's what happened with scourge, and more insultingly, necromancer as a whole. They legit removed Boon corruption. Boon corruption, from their base kit, A Class known for corrupting people and getting people back from the grave. At that point, it doesn't matter how well scourge will do at this point, despite the fact that playing scourge will be awful in a couple of minutes. You removed a key defining ability from them, for Alacrity. A boon Not a single necro player cared for, or ask for, and did just fine without, and other classes can just pump out better.

But it honestly seems to me that you want every class to be cookie cutter with nothing unique about them outside of being one trick ponies. As long it preform raids, what does it matter, right?

spectre alac spamming wells don't use stealth. thats the same as the new scourge.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

spectre alac spamming wells don't use stealth. thats the same as the new scourge.

So in your opinion, Thieves will be fine, if their one of their biggest thing, Stealth is removed. You're telling me that Thieves don't need stealth. This is what your comment is suggesting.

Anyway, That's not the point. I don't care about providing alac. I care about having having Key defining options that is straight up removed. Scourage used to have boon corruption in it's kit. It gave them something more than boon stripping. Something more useful, and now it's like any other boon ripping skill in a game.



It's no different than removing Guardian's ability to convert Condition into boons, and with the way things are going, I can honestly see this going away too.

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

12 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Scourge will still perform okay as alac support and alac dps.

oops

[xellink.7568]

57 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

So in your opinion, Thieves will be fine, if their one of their biggest thing, Stealth is removed. You're telling me that Thieves don't need stealth. This is what your comment is suggesting.

Anyway, That's not the point. I don't care about providing alac. I care about having having Key defining options that is straight up removed. Scourage used to have boon corruption in it's kit. It gave them something more than boon stripping. Something more useful, and now it's like any other boon ripping skill in a game.

I'm saying spectre don't need stealth.

Thats what Spellbreakers felt when they got thrown under the bus for a long time in PVE content and when WOD got nerfed beyond redemption so Anet can keep its boonballs. kitten happens to classes, but spellbreaker got their redemption arc after a few years.

You still have scepter 3. How often do you need to spam it on fractals?

45 minutes ago, Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267 said:

oops

The numbers may be totally off. Anet should look into having Scourge being a viable selection in group PVE content for inclusivity. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by xellink.7568

[Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267]

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

I'm saying spectre don't need stealth.

Thief in general do. It's the main reason they exist. Spectre is no exception, especially in Pvp. You take their stealth away, you effectively cripple them in a big way.

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

You still have scepter 3. How often do you need to spam it on fractals?

I fail to see how that's relevant. scepter 3 doesn't define the class in anyway.

 

1 hour ago, xellink.7568 said:

Thats what Spellbreakers felt when they got thrown under the bus for a long time in PVE content and when WOD got nerfed beyond redemption so Anet can keep its boonballs. kitten happens to classes, but spellbreaker got their redemption arc after a few years.

And it sucks that Spellbreaker has gotten the short end of the stick, I get it. But that doesn't mean Other classes has to be dragged down with it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Thevaultdwellinggamer.4267

[Astralporing.1957]

15 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Scourge will still perform okay as alac support and alac dps.

Turns out it does not perform okay in any role now. Scourge sacrificed everything for Alac, and it turns out even this doesn't work. And yes, the nerf to shades was part of the issue.