So Relics will be vertical progression, power creep and pay to win? [Merged]

[Ashen.2907]

2 hours ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nothing said here refutes what I've said.  The bottom line is Nerf patches result in time or currency needed to offset.  I wasn't complaining about it.  I was just pointing out the facts of the situation to point out that this relic change is not any different fundamentally.

The vast majority of nerf patches have little impact on gear builds. Most of those few that do don't change the nerfed gear's position in its relevant builds. 

For example, Torment Runes remained the ideal option for their intended purpose even after they were changed.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[DeathPanel.8362]

20 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not for owners of legendaries. For them it only results in need to restat and respec

Unless a legendary relic is provided this new expansion will require owners of legendary runes to pay some currency.

Jade bots also required owners of legendaries to pay for currency because there's no legendary jade bot.

My point stands.

[DeathPanel.8362]

18 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

The vast majority of nerf patches have little impact on gear builds. Most of those few that do don't change the nerfed gear's position in its relevant builds. 

For example, Torment Runes remained the ideal option for their intended purpose even after they were changed.

Doesn't change the fundamental point I was making.  Having to make changes due to changes isn't something unheard of.

Back when the ascended gear was implemented people had to literally pay for or regrind every single equipment slot.

[DeathPanel.8362]

25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Again, no matter the cost of relics, or effort required for them, unless it is exactly zero, for legendary owners it will definitely result in more cost than respeccing after a balance patch.

You keep framing your argument around legendary owners when I've already pointed out that balance decisions that affect everyone shouldn't be made focused on exceptional cases.

The additional costs in Relics are applied to everyone, not just legendary owners.  Everyone has to get these new relics.  The only difference is you have the false expectation that legendary rune owners shouldn't incur this new cost.

[Astralporing.1957]

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Unless a legendary relic is provided this new expansion will require owners of legendary runes to pay some currency.

...yes, that was exactly my point. This time it will be different. This time Legendary status making players protected from exactly this happening to them will be nulled and void.

5 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Jade bots also required owners of legendaries to pay for currency because there's no legendary jade bot.

Jade bot already raised this issue before, but didn't make that big of a splash because it didn't impact dps at all. Also, nothing was taken away first from players in order to make space for bots, which is also an important point. Still, overall, stats on bots were a bad idea.

 

 

[Geralt.7519]

33 minutes ago, Cronospere.8143 said:

Jade bots also moved the game a bit away from horizontal progression. Since it added more vitality 

And before releasing it they nerfed survivability across the board to account for it.

Now they're adding the relic that's pretty mandatory and they're ruining a legendary in the process.

Is this what we have to expect in every new xpac going forward? New gear grinds every time?

Edit 

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 Also, nothing was taken away first from players in order to make space for bots, which is also an important point. Still, overall, stats on bots were a bad idea.

That's not entirely correct, they nerfed survivability everywhere to account for the bot and there was quite an uproar about it, but yeah, vitality doesn't impact dps so people adapted to it anyway.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Geralt.7519

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

..yes, that was exactly my point. This time it will be different. This time Legendary status making players protected from exactly this happening to them will be nulled and void.

Nowhere in the legendary implementation did ANET promise that runes will never be changed.  You'll still be able to customize the stats of legendary runes for free. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

The only difference is you have the false expectation that legendary rune owners shouldn't incur this new cost.

Owners of legendary runes indeed had expectations, based on previous precedent and overall status of Legendary gear, that no balance change aiming at runes will incur any cost on them. And yes, that expectations turned out to be false - and that exactly is the whole issue here. The primary reason for why people get angry is precisely because the expectations about Legendary protection from gear changes turned out to be false.

Notice, that this expectation about legendary gear held true for 10 years, and is actually older than final promise about not introducing any new tier of gear past ascended, or increasing level cap (as those happened only at the HoT reveal). It will only change now. And for no good reason. Or without Anet even mentioning why they suddenly want to revoke one of the longest-standing game policies.

[Ashen.2907]

13 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Doesn't change the fundamental point I was making.  Having to make changes due to changes isn't something unheard of.

Back when the ascended gear was implemented people had to literally pay for or regrind every single equipment slot.

I didnt respond to a post claiming that having to make changes due to changes isnt something unheard of. I responded to a post that made a specific inaccurate claim.

Opening your hero tab and clicking on different traits in response to a nerf patch is very different than having to reacquire gear via real money or in game grind. I opposed the addition of ascended gear at the time of its implementation....but even it did not take anything away from players in order to sell it back to them.

You might find it odd but I would be less upset with the removal of the sixth tier bonus from the game as a form of overall nerf to character performance than I am with taking it away in order to sell it back. I cant say I would agree with that particular approach to combating power creep, but it would be more palatable than what has been announced.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Owners of legendary runes indeed had expectations, based on previous precedent and overall status of Legendary gear, that no balance change aiming at runes will incur any cost on them

And those expectations still hold because they won't spend any additional money on having to buy runes.

There was never a promise that they wouldn't spend any currency on any unspecified future gear slot implementation which may have some effects that previously were on runes.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

Nowhere in the legendary implementation did ANET promise that runes will never be changed.  You'll still be able to customize the stats of legendary runes for free. 

Yes, but relics are part of balance change to runes, and as such based on old policy should be covered by legendary runes. If they are not, it means Legendary protection from balance changes is no longer valid and has been completely nulled.

2 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

There was never a promise that they wouldn't spend any currency on any unspecified future gear slot implementation which may have some effects that previously were on runes.

Technically, sure. But that's what it is - a technicality that lets them get away with practically negating Legendary protection. Not just for runes, but for all legendary gear.

Notice, btw, that using the very same loophole they could tomorrow downgrade all ascended to exotics and have us grind for (new) ascended. Or drop us down to level 1 and have us level up again to 80 through some new method that includes old levelling and something new on top of it. All those things would let them keep the letter of the old promises, but would completely demolish the spirit behind them.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[vares.8457]

I have everything legendary, even legendary runes. I think relics sound very interesting and I am looking forward to it. I feel in no way betrayed and I didn’t lose trust like some of the drama queens here. 

[DeathPanel.8362]

1 minute ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I didnt respond to a post claiming that having to make changes due to changes isnt something unheard of. I responded to a post that made a specific inaccurate claim.

Opening your hero tab and clicking on different traits in response to a nerf patch is very different than having to reacquire gear via real money or in game grind. I opposed the addition of ascended gear at the time of its implementation....but even it did not take anything away from players in order to sell it back to them.

You might find it odd but I would be less upset with the removal of the sixth tier bonus from the game as a form of overall nerf to character performance than I am with taking it away in order to sell it back. I cant say I would agree with that particular approach to combating power creep, but it would be more palatable than what has been announced.

It's not combating power creep.  It's itself power creep since giving more flexibility by untying effects from runes will allow for potentially stronger builds.  My fundamental point still stands though.  In MMOs changes often cause players to need to spend currency or time to adjust.  I cited ascended gear implementation as an example.  Obviously, people aren't happy about it but a game can't stay in stasis forever.

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, vares.8457 said:

I have everything legendary, even legendary runes. I think relics sound very interesting and I am looking forward to it. I feel in no way betrayed and I didn’t lose trust like some of the drama queens here. 

So you trust that ANet will never again remove functionality from any form of legendary gear?

[DeathPanel.8362]

4 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Technically, sure. But that's what it is - a technicality that leths them get away with practically negating Legendary protection. Not just for runes, but for all legendary gear.

Legendaries are just a form of Quality of Life.  What has happened is that they nerfed the quality of life for legendary runes but improved the quality of life overall for all players by untying the effect from rune sets allowing for greater build flexibility for everyone.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, vares.8457 said:

Yes.

I guess if you were asked the same question a month ago about the runes, your answer would have been the same? That's how much this trust it worth.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Astralporing.1957

[Ashen.2907]

Just now, DeathPanel.8362 said:

It's not combating power creep.  It's itself power creep since giving more flexibility by untying effects from runes will allow for potentially stronger builds.  My fundamental point still stands though.  In MMOs changes often cause players to need to spend currency or time to adjust.  I cited ascended gear implementation as an example.  Obviously, people aren't happy about it but a game can't stay in stasis forever.

I didn't claim that it was combatting power creep. I stated that I would be less unhappy with the 6th tier being permanently removed in order to hypothetically combat power creep than I am with the announced direction. The potential for power creep (a certainty in my opinion) inherent in this system as well as the unlocking of elite spec weapons are not a good thing IMO. Inflating numbers is not a particularly good way to avoid stagnation in my opinion.

[vares.8457]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I guess if you were asked the same question a month ago about the runes, your answer would have been the same? That's how much this trust it worth.

You really should relax a bit. You are overly dramatic. Maybe go outside, the weather is nice. After all, it’s just a video game and you sound like it’s about life and death. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by vares.8457

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

I didn't claim that it was combatting power creep. I stated that I would be less unhappy with the 6th tier being permanently removed in order to hypothetically combat power creep than I am with the announced direction. The potential for power creep (a certainty in my opinion) inherent in this system as well as the unlocking of elite spec weapons are not a good thing IMO. Inflating numbers is not a particularly good way to avoid stagnation in my opinion.

Adjustments can be made via balancing skills and weapon damage or trait effects if numbers get too high.  The biggest improvement is the quality of life offered by relics by making builds far more flexible.

[Ashen.2907]

39 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

Yes. There is no conspiracy going on like you and others here seem to believe. You have a complete meltdown over nothing. Why not just wait for them to clear it up like they promised before you throw a temper tantrum? 

I asked a simple and polite question and you cannot respond without personal attacks and false accusations. 

So, you trust that ANet will not remove functionality from legendary gear...despite the fact that they have stated that they intend to do so. Ok then.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Geralt.7519]

25 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

 The only difference is you have the false expectation that legendary rune owners shouldn't incur this new cost.

The premise of making legendaries is being immune to balance changes/gear grinds, and that was true for 10 years.

If not, noone would make them, they require a massing amount of time and effort and they cost hundreds of times more than regular equivalents, why wasting all that effort if their quality-of-life value doesn't hold over time?

Why should Anet waste resources into developing something noone would do because it's not worth the effort?

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Geralt.7519 said:

The premise of making legendaries is being immune to balance changes/gear grinds, and that was true for 10 years.

And you'll still be immune to rune costs if you have legendary runes.  The premise holds.

Nowhere does it state you're immune to all other unspecified gear slot implementation costs just because you have legendary runes. 

I'm not opposed to ANET offering legendary rune owners something special to keep them happy but I'm not holding my breath either.

[Ashen.2907]

4 minutes ago, DeathPanel.8362 said:

making builds far more flexible.

This remains to be seen. Personally I don't see flexibility so much as pure performance increase. The ability to combine the mathematically highest power damage stats with the highest possible damage 6th tier bonus (as an example) seems to be the likely result of this change. Again, we will see, but I dont personally consider increasing power creep to be a matter of flexibility.

[DeathPanel.8362]

Just now, Ashen.2907 said:

This remains to be seen. Personally I don't see flexibility so much as pure performance increase. The ability to combine the mathematically highest power damage stats with the highest possible damage 6th tier bonus (as an example) seems to be the likely result of this change. Again, we will see, but I dont personally consider increasing power creep to be a matter of flexibility.

An increase in flexibility naturally results in performance increases in certain builds.

If things get a bit out of hand they can be toned down via tweaks to certain problematic skill damage, trait effects, etc.

[Geralt.7519]

11 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

You really should relax a bit. You are overly dramatic. Maybe go outside, the weather is nice. After all, it’s just a video game and you sound like it’s about life and death. 

If you resort to personal attacks it means you have no valid argument to support your opinions, you're just spitting out words for the sake of it.