Shade Duration makes the scourge a chore to play.

[Gaeb.2837]

Give us a max of one shade (placing a new one removes old one) at 20s duration and 8s cd; would anyone complain? We'd lose some minor aoe damage potential (vs today's 8s duration / 8 charge design).

Edited July 13, 2023 by Gaeb.2837

[TheAgedGnome.7520]

A good review of the Scourge situation, and quickness/alacrity more generally:

 

[Necrovore.4712]

Agreed, 8 seconds shade duration make it way too spammy and takes the fun out of the class. I hope this gets looked at by Anet. 

[Lily.1935]

I really wish we didn't have radio silence on this because its a pretty big deal to the scourge community. Like, before the change went live everyone was like "This is a bad idea." and after it went live everyone is like "This is awful to play" and their solution to it doesn't address the core issue people have, and considering they didn't make any changes with 3 weeks in advance last time I don't see this as better communication from Arena net. Its just "You'll know what we're changing sooner" rather than actually having a conversation about those changes. The conflict we were having wasn't respecing our gear, it was the changes themselves.

[sdaugherty.1984]

16 hours ago, Lily.1935 said:

I really wish we didn't have radio silence on this because its a pretty big deal to the scourge community. Like, before the change went live everyone was like "This is a bad idea." and after it went live everyone is like "This is awful to play" and their solution to it doesn't address the core issue people have, and considering they didn't make any changes with 3 weeks in advance last time I don't see this as better communication from Arena net. Its just "You'll know what we're changing sooner" rather than actually having a conversation about those changes. The conflict we were having wasn't respecing our gear, it was the changes themselves.

Yes, it's moves like this that makes me think Anet has lost the people that really know the game. 

[Obtena.7952]

58 minutes ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

Yes, it's moves like this that makes me think Anet has lost the people that really know the game. 

These kinds of comments are simply out of touch because in fact, it's the OPPOSITE. You have to understand the game quite well to understand why they made shade duration 8 seconds. Let's stop pretending that the devs simply have no clue what they are doing to justify why we don't like their changes UMKAY?

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[sdaugherty.1984]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

These kinds of comments are simply out of touch because in fact, it's the OPPOSITE. You have to understand the game quote well to understand why they made shade duration 8 seconds. Let's stop pretending that the devs simply have no clue what they are doing to justify why we don't like their changes UMKAY?

Imho,    How many years has this game been out? And they continue to struggle with game balance even tho they can also balance across game modes?

[Drizzly.4562]

29 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

These kinds of comments are simply out of touch because in fact, it's the OPPOSITE. You have to understand the game quote well to understand why they made shade duration 8 seconds. Let's stop pretending that the devs simply have no clue what they are doing to justify why we don't like their changes UMKAY?

Good one!

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, sdaugherty.1984 said:

How many years has this game been out? 

Many ... which is why the idea that devs don't know what they are doing is completely nonsense.

Again, you didn't ask yourself why Anet choose 8 seconds because that's not just some arbitrary choice right? So you are going to sit there, claim Anet doesn't know why they do things, all the while you think things are happening randomly around you because it's actually YOU that don't understand what the reasons behind these changes are. 

I get you don't like the change but that in NO WAY should lead you to conclude Anet doesn't have reasons for what changes they are making so you don't have to consider them to justify your ridiculous claims they have no idea. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Drizzly.4562]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Many ... which is why the idea that devs don't know what they are doing is completely nonsense.

Again, you didn't ask yourself why Anet choose 8 seconds because that's not just some arbitrary choice right? So you are going to sit there, claim Anet doesn't know why they do things, all the while you think things are happening randomly around you because it's actually YOU that don't understand what the reasons behind these changes are. 

Oh you were serious.  Everyone knows why they chose 8 seconds: because they thought that's all it needed when you usually spam shades, and they wanted to limit shared boons.

Too bad they forgot about Sand Savant since they're such experts.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

Everyone knows why they chose 8 seconds: because they thought that's all it needed when you usually spam shades, and they wanted to limit shared boons.

Right because that IS all you need when you spam the shades, whether you play heal Scourge or you don't. So what's the actual problem if the shade duration isn't longer than the count recharge? I don't see it. In a sustained shade use scenario, a 20 second vs. 8 second duration doesn't affect how shades are spammed ... and no one can argue that the optimal shade use scenario ISN'T spamming them.

So in otherwords ... the complaint is just that people want to overlap shades. That's a nightmare scenario for Anet balance shades around. Now that shades heal, it was time for them to correct that problem. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Drizzly.4562]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right because that IS all you need when you spam the shades, whether you play heal Scourge or you don't. So what's the actual problem if the shade duration isn't longer than the count recharge? I don't see it. Maybe someone should explain how in a sustained shade use scenario, why a 20 second vs. 8 second duration affects how they spam shades ... because I don't see it and Anet doesn't either if the 8 sec duration is an indication of their understanding of the game. 

The thing that makes scourge fun and has given dps scourge it's identity and group role for the last two years: placing multiple shades for area control/cleave damage/skill expression.

An insanely obvious answer if you played scourge for more than a few hours.  Now I just feel sad that you actually thought this was a reasonable take you had.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Drizzly.4562

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

The thing that makes scourge fun and has given dps scourge it's identity and geoup for the last two years: placing multiple shades for area control/cleave damage/skill expression.

Hold on ... nothing says you STILL can't place multiple shades in one area to do that. They simply don't last 20 seconds. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[sdaugherty.1984]

Bottom line is poor decisions by developers = loss of pleasure playing the game for your average player. Some game modes are also hit harder than others. That would leave anyone searching for a reason why a decision is made.....

[Drizzly.4562]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on ... nothing says you STILL can't place multiple shades in one area to do that. They simply don't last 20 seconds. 

Oooooooooo I love that quick edit to completely remove your original comment in it's entirety.

No, nothing says you can't still do that, and no one here is saying you can't do that.  It feels significantly more kitten to do so in the 12 second window you have.

Thread title:  Shade Duration makes the scourge a chore to play.

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, sdaugherty.1984 said:

Bottom line is poor decisions by developers = loss of pleasure playing the game for your average player. Some game modes are also hit harder than others. That would leave anyone searching for a reason why a decision is made.....

Sure ... and this isn't really one of those situations because the average player is simply spamming shades. No one should be 'searching' for a reason why anet made the desicion to reduce duration from 20 to 8 seconds provided they put any thought into it and have a clue about how the game works, contrary to your own claims that it's Anet that doesn't do that. 

[sdaugherty.1984]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and this isn't really one of those situations because the average player is simply spamming shades. No one should be 'searching' for a reason why anet made the desicion to reduce duration from 20 to 8 seconds provided they put any thought into it and have a clue about how the game works, contrary to your own claims that it's Anet that doesn't do that. 

Lol

 

[Drizzly.4562]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... and this isn't really one of those situations because the average player is simply spamming shades. No one should be 'searching' for a reason why anet made the desicion to reduce duration from 20 to 8 seconds provided they put any thought into it and have a clue about how the game works, contrary to your own claims that it's Anet that doesn't do that. 

Sounds like you're saying they looked at aggregate data of low skill players and didn't base it on the actual gameplay loop.  Glad you agree.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

No, nothing says you can't still do that, and no one here is saying you can't do that.  It feels significantly more kitten to do so in the 12 second window you have.

Great ... then you shouldn't be bringing it up to argue with me in the first place. I mean, the complaint is basically that people don't want to have to think about timing their actions because 20 seconds is a LONG time in this game. 

Shade duration doesn't affect the 'work' needed to play Scourge. It affects people's thoughtful approach to timing their use. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Drizzly.4562]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

Great ... then you shouldn't be bringing it up to argue with me in the first place. I mean, the complaint is basically that people don't want to have to think about timing their actions because 20 seconds is a LONG time in this game. 

Shade duration doesn't affect the 'work' needed to play Scourge. It affects people's thoughtful approach to timing their use. 

That's literally the work.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

That's literally the work.

The work has not changed, whether you are in a rotation of spamming shades, or stacking them in one area one after another for massive effect. The part that changes is the timing of starting the stack. If that's a chore, then it's a L2P issue. I mean, it's still 8 seconds so ... it's not that short. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Drizzly.4562]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

The work has not changed, whether you are in a rotation of spamming shades, or staking them in one area for massive effect. The part that changes is the timing. If that's a chore, it's a L2P issue. 

Yes. I'm glad you agree that I have to learn to play with new arbitrary restrictions that make the class more annoying. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

Yes. I'm glad you agree that I have to learn to play with new arbitrary restrictions that make the class more annoying. 

Well, don't be too glad because I didn't agree that this change makes the class more annoying. In fact, the change doesn't really affect how most people play the class at all. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Drizzly.4562]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

N I didn't agree that this change makes the class more annoying. In fact, the change doesn't really affect how most people play the class at all. 

Most people are bad, per the devs.  Thanks for playing.

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, Drizzly.4562 said:

Most people are bad, per the devs.  Thanks for playing.

That's true, most people are bad, which is why the change makes sense for those players and for Anet. Anet needs to be able to balance Scourge heals. They can't do that if there are multiple shade stacking scenarios they have to deal with. 

I mean, you don't seem to want to acknowledge that Anet isn't balancing the game for just the 'good' players. It should be pretty evident that Anet considers a WIDE range of player performance when they make changes. They even acknowledged it in one of their twitch streams in the last year. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Obtena.7952