How to make Daredevil an actual specialization with the "lowest effort" changes

[TheThief.8475]

Hello Thief enjoyers. Today we discuss making Daredevil an actual specialization;

I had a lot of discussions lately about the weapon master training feature, and they pointed out that Daredevil does not add anything to Core Thief (except a Dodge modifier). Let's analyze Thief's specializations:

• DE adds malice (change profession mechanic), which is basically combo points, changing the gameplay and rotation in a significant way, no matter the weapon you use;
• Specter adds shadow shroud (change profession mechanic), changing the gameplay and rotation in a significant way, no matter the weapon you use (except it currently doesn't work with power builds, or any other weapon really, but this can be fixed with numbers);
• DD adds endurance and a dodge modifier (doesn't change profession mechanic), turning dodge into a "skill" that you have to use constantly during your Core Thief rotation to deal more damage. This doesn't change the gameplay and rotation significantly;

 

So how can we make Daredevil more interesting and fun while keeping the rogue/assassin playstyle that a Thief should have?

1. Reduce Steal CD to 15 seconds baseline in PvE (following the trend of removing traits that reduce the CD of skills, remove the trait that reduces Steal CD);
2. Add an F3 slot (here you can select a stolen skill to equip); You can integrate the new skill in the rotation or change it situationally for more AoE/more CCs/more Survivability, etc;
3. Steal and stolen skills (F1 and F2) stay the same, but in PvE, (maybe PvP too?) stolen skills are randomized (non-dependant from the mob you steal from), playing more like an outlaw rogue for example (can I name the other game or is it against rules?);
4. Balance stolen skills and remove/revamp useless stolen skills to make the gameplay varied and consistently rewarding.
   • As an example: grant stealth for 2 seconds -> increase initiative regeneration by 50% for 4 seconds;

 

 

Final considerations

This would make Daredevil a Thief that specializes in Stolen Skills (an actual Thief profession mechanic), improvisation (a Thief characteristic), and face-to-face combat (a Daredevil characteristic).

 

Is this easy to achieve for Anet?

Probably not easy, but it all comes down to: 

• Adding a new Profession skill (F3);
• Balancing/revamping existing stolen skills and randomising them (instead of being dependent on the target you steal from);
• Possibly (an extra that would make this a fully-fledged rework) change some of the traits (begone, foul dodge modifiers);

 

Expectations

Considering that they are not doing more Elite Specialization, I think that they should at least look at their tragic old Elite Specs designs and rework them, maybe as an expansion feature (say they rework the worst elite spec for each profession in expansion 5).

 

What do you think, dear Thief gamers?

Edited July 12, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

as we drifted into this already in another post, i agree that steal and stolen skills a in a need of a redesign but that is certainly not a „low effort“ change. And if Anet ever decides to do something about it I really hope it won’t be a „quick and dirty fix“.

Don’t get me wrong here but while your idea might be good, I thing it does to little of a change to justify putting focus on it at the moment.

In my opinion all thief specs suffer from the same root, our core weapons and traitlines are all some kind of a „hybrid“ compared to other professions where those are more lets say designated. this is also the reason why we won’t get much out of the new access to the espec weapons (as they are to reliant on the corresponding traits and the provided gameplay mechanics besides maybe staff) at least thats how i feel about it currently.

So while my first statement still stands i think the latter is of more importance and requires sooner attention than steal.

[TheThief.8475]

54 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

as we drifted into this already in another post, i agree that steal and stolen skills a in a need of a redesign but that is certainly not a „low effort“ change. And if Anet ever decides to do something about it I really hope it won’t be a „quick and dirty fix“.

Don’t get me wrong here but while your idea might be good, I thing it does to little of a change to justify putting focus on it at the moment.

I didn't say "low effort" but "lowest effort" (which basically means the minimum required to make daredevil an actual specialization xD)

This playstyle would come close to outlaw rogues (if you know what I'm talking about), and integrates stolen skill as an important part of the kit and rotation, instead of a worthless mechanic that is useful 20% of the time and useless for the remaining 80% (not to mention that it is non-gameplay-defining 100% of the time);

This rework just aims at making steal and stolen skills gameplay defining, part of rotation/utility kit (depending on the situation).

Why don't you think this wouldn't change the gameplay enough? (tell me what you think please)

55 minutes ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

In my opinion all thief specs suffer from the same root, our core weapons and traitlines are all some kind of a „hybrid“ compared to other professions where those are more lets say designated. this is also the reason why we won’t get much out of the new access to the espec weapons (as they are to reliant on the corresponding traits and the provided gameplay mechanics besides maybe staff) at least thats how i feel about it currently.

So while my first statement still stands i think the latter is of more importance and requires sooner attention than steal.

I don't think that the problem of thief weapons comes from them being hybrid (maybe the opposite actually, with rifle and staff being 100% power damage and sceptre 100% Condi damage the possible combinations immediately shrink), but I agree that staff, sceptre and rifle are too reliant on their trait line.

The problems with Thief currently (IMO):

• Fully power or fully condi weapons reduce the number of possible new builds with weapon master training. If you think about it, hybrid weapons, if well balanced can easily work with both condi and power build (see d/d daredevil, d/d deadeye);
• Staff, Scepter and Rifle are very reliant on their trait lines. In order I'd say
  • Rifle: requires stealth access and malice for one of its strongest abilities (death judgement)
  • Scepter, because deals torment damage mostly, full condi (torment modifiers are all on Specter traits)
  • Staff, is a good power weapon, works with DD and DE, and could work with Specter if they added a damage modifier trait and increased shroud power dmg)
• Introducing torment with Specter when they could give poison and bleeding to sceptre making weapons like pistol/dagger and dagger/dagger an easy fit for Specter builds;
• Many dual-wield Thief skills are meant for PvP (d/p, s/d, s/p), and they still decided to add a main hand weapon instead of an off-hand, that could have solved these problems (adding more strong dual-wield PvE options);
• Lack of balance for many weapons in PvE (p/p and bow for example are terrible weapons in PvE)

I think these problems are the ones that should be prioritized for sure, but looking at the future of professions and specializations, I feel the need for Thief specializations to play differently and support varied builds and playstyles.

I understand that reworking DD isn't a priority for Anet, that's why I explained (in "expectations") that since they are not going to develop any new elite specs, they could rework the poorly designed ones, maybe as a feature of expansion 5 (even tho I'd really want this a lot sooner)

Edited July 12, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[Doggie.3184]

F3 could just be Daredevil's Baton and we hurl it at enemies and it bounces between them like it did in Marvel Heroes. 😛 Then who cares what we random from Steal, we got Daredevil's weapon as backup.

But seriously all it really needs imo is Bound to have slightly larger radius and Havoc Specialist to be replaced with something more interesting without hurting DPS. Because keeping the whole Endurance Bar drained instead of using it strategicly kinda kills the point of the elite spec, and we already have to use the dodge skills to activate damage buffs~ so it's just not needed and isn't a fun design. Endurance should be a good thing not a bad thing. Currently it's no better than forcing classes to spam/waste utilities like Wells for Alac/Quick, which Anet is doing away with now, so do away with spam wasting Endurance too. If we wanna dump it all at once at a specific time or stretch it out, or use it for countering or whatever, let us decide that.

and Pulmonary Impact was already pseudo-deleted. Just delete it for real and give us an actual trait. Currently Condi has no 2nd trait; so slap in something to go with Lotus Training.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Doggie.3184

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

I didn't say "low effort" but "lowest effort" (which basically means the minimum required to make daredevil an actual specialization xD)

This playstyle would come close to outlaw rogues (if you know what I'm talking about), and integrates stolen skill as an important part of the kit and rotation, instead of a worthless mechanic that is useful 20% of the time and useless for the remaining 80% (not to mention that it is non-gameplay-defining 100% of the time);

This rework just aims at making steal and stolen skills gameplay defining, part of rotation/utility kit (depending on the situation).

Why don't you think this wouldn't change the gameplay enough? (tell me what you think please)

I do like your approach, i was just thinking that if a "rework" will be on the table at Anet, i assume it will be something else entirely. 
if it is currently not on their radar I only meant that there are "core" issues that should be resolved first before looking into Daredevil (or Deadeye) if it is more than just their current change-design, if you know what I mean.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

I don't think that the problem of thief weapons comes from them being hybrid (maybe the opposite actually, with rifle and staff being 100% power damage and sceptre 100% Condi damage the possible combinations immediately shrink), but I agree that staff, sceptre and rifle are too reliant on their trait line.

The problems with Thief currently (IMO):

• Fully power or fully condi weapons reduce the number of possible new builds with weapon master training. If you think about it, hybrid weapons, if well balanced can easily work with both condi and power build (see d/d daredevil, d/d deadeye);

I do think that those two topics are somewhat related and holding all the specs back.

A condi Daredevil and a power Deadeye are using the same weapon set, while technically this is a good thing it comes down you spamming either death blossom, or clock n dagger plus backstab (51111 meme). this might not be bad numberswise but it is certainly a boring playstyle to "spam" only certain abilities of your set. This is what i mean that it would be better to have dedicated weapon sets for these purposes.

Imagine to actually use initiative not only for one skill but being able to adjust depending on the situation, not only with the offhand weapons.

Maybe their main-hand axe will kinda solve this. If it is a condi weapon maybe dagger will be pushed even more into power. if it is a power weapon maybe dagger gets pushed into more condi - both ways would be good it just depends on personal preference which way you would like more.

this is also something that the traitlines suffer from - which to be fair doesnt really is an issue for the elite specs - those have clear structure - its more about core traitlines.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

• Staff, Scepter and Rifle are very reliant on their trait lines. In order I'd say
  • Rifle: requires stealth access and malice for one of its strongest abilities (death judgement)
  • Scepter, because deals torment damage mostly, full condi (torment modifiers are all on Specter traits)
  • Staff, is a good power weapon, works with DD and DE, and could work with Specter if they added a damage modifier trait and increased shroud power dmg)

fully agree here.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

• Introducing torment with Specter when they could give poison and bleeding to sceptre making weapons like pistol/dagger and dagger/dagger an easy fit for Specter builds;

good comment.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

• Many dual-wield Thief skills are meant for PvP (d/p, s/d, s/p), and they still decided to add a main hand weapon instead of an off-hand, that could have solved these problems (adding more strong dual-wield PvE options)

this is why many want another offhand because you are mostly "locked" into certain sets, where you might only use one ability regulary while ignoring the other one(s) because they do not fit the build - again i think this can be also viewed as an issue due to a lack of clearity of purpose for those weapon sets (which i meant be the hybrid comment) not only hybrid on condi or power but also on pve and pvp oriented.

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

• Lack of balance for many weapons in PvE (p/p and bow for example are terrible weapons in PvE)

Yes indeed those two need help - shortbow has its place but it boils down to an escape weapon and spreading posion on downed targets

2 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

I think these problems are the ones that should be prioritized for sure, but looking at the future of professions and specializations, I feel the need for Thief specializations to play differently and support varied builds and playstyles.

I understand that reworking DD isn't a priority for Anet, that's why I explained (in "expectations") that since they are not going to develop any new elite specs, they could rework the poorly designed ones, maybe as a feature of expansion 5 (even tho I'd really want this a lot sooner)

 

Again fully agree, Daredevil isnt really promoting an other sytle of gameplay. As @Doggie.3184 said you can argue that the change of gameplay is to use dodges aggressive , but this is really it and it isn't a good design as well.

But if for example dagger would be committed to be a full condi melee weapon maybe condi daredevil would also play nicer as a result, as long you are bound to press "3" all over, i dont think in the end  we'll be happy even if steal is done better for that spec. maybe i didnt express myself here good enough, sorry for that.

[HeliosMagi.9867]

Not every elite spec needs to change how a profession fundamentally plays. In fact each profession having 1 elite spec that's just "core but better" is a good thing, since it provides a way for new players that just hit Lv80 to ease into endgame builds before trying out more complex specs. For Thief Daredevil is the "Core+" spec that acts as a gateway into more complex specs, like what Berserker is to Warrior.

[TheThief.8475]

4 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

A condi Daredevil and a power Deadeye are using the same weapon set, while technically this is a good thing it comes down you spamming either death blossom, or clock n dagger plus backstab (51111 meme). this might not be bad numberswise but it is certainly a boring playstyle to "spam" only certain abilities of your set. This is what i mean that it would be better to have dedicated weapon sets for these purposes.

I agree, it's super boring to just spam a single skill over and over. This is why I propose new F3 and F2 to integrate in the rotation; This idea would reduce spamming and make the gameplay more varied with effects that synergize with initiative and weapon skills. For example, you could have skills effects on stolen skills like "your next attack after using this skill deals 300% damage" which would prioritize Vault (big damage on a single hit) over Weakening Charge (big damage split in 3 hits), and many other skills or effects that keep the rotation varied and kinda improvised 🙂 

4 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

Imagine to actually use initiative not only for one skill but being able to adjust depending on the situation, not only with the offhand weapons.

This problem is IMO tied to the bad design of Thief profession mechanics and initiative. Initiative just exists as a resource bar for using skill, but nothing interacts with it, so this means that you will always spam your best skill (unless there is a reason to not do so, which we currently don't have).

DE already kinda solves it with malice (for example M7 rifle and d/d rotations are actual rotations). Specter has the spam problem, (with shadow shroud in between), and Daredevil too (this is why I proposed this idea indeed xD)

 

[TheThief.8475]

1 hour ago, HeliosMagi.9867 said:

Not every elite spec needs to change how a profession fundamentally plays. In fact each profession having 1 elite spec that's just "core but better" is a good thing, since it provides a way for new players that just hit Lv80 to ease into endgame builds before trying out more complex specs. For Thief Daredevil is the "Core+" spec that acts as a gateway into more complex specs, like what Berserker is to Warrior.

They could change the Steal/Stolen Skills part in core Thief too (lower Steal CD, balanced and useful stolen skills that you always want to use). In this case, the only difference with DD would be a new F3 slot where you can select one of those skills that you already know + additional traits that interact with the profession mechanic.

The real problem is that the core Thief design is bad and becomes boring quickly, and Daredevil being basically the same means that it is bad too.

I don't mind Daredevil being similar to Core Thief if it is already a lot of fun to play, but it currently isn't 🙂 

 

Also, Berserker vs Warrior has a lot of differences compared to Daredevil vs Thief. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Well. Daredevil could reduce available Initiative like Specter does but instead of having Shroud bypassing Initiative the DD could have mechanics added to recover Initiative faster.

 

So you can spam less but using some mechanic(s) would let you keep fighting well... The problem would be this is nerfing you to force more of a reactive play so careful attention would be needed for what mechanic would be used... I don't think the current Devs are up for the challenge.

[ZeroTheRuler.7415]

5 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

I agree, it's super boring to just spam a single skill over and over. This is why I propose new F3 and F2 to integrate in the rotation; This idea would reduce spamming and make the gameplay more varied with effects that synergize with initiative and weapon skills. For example, you could have skills effects on stolen skills like "your next attack after using this skill deals 300% damage" which would prioritize Vault (big damage on a single hit) over Weakening Charge (big damage split in 3 hits), and many other skills or effects that keep the rotation varied and kinda improvised 🙂 

This problem is IMO tied to the bad design of Thief profession mechanics and initiative. Initiative just exists as a resource bar for using skill, but nothing interacts with it, so this means that you will always spam your best skill (unless there is a reason to not do so, which we currently don't have).

DE already kinda solves it with malice (for example M7 rifle and d/d rotations are actual rotations). Specter has the spam problem, (with shadow shroud in between), and Daredevil too (this is why I proposed this idea indeed xD)

 

Yeah, DE does kind of solve this. If anything it should be similar.

Actually what if one of the daredevil traits were reworked to encourage different attacks? What if a increasing damage modifier could be added for each unique weapon skill that was used if in order it was used X amount of seconds after the last one.

This would encourage say a 1423 combo depending on how much each bonus gives you.

Edit: actually I would like that for every thief spec, but 😂

Edited July 13, 2023 by ZeroTheRuler.7415

[TheThief.8475]

10 hours ago, ZeroTheRuler.7415 said:

Yeah, DE does kind of solve this. If anything it should be similar.

Actually what if one of the daredevil traits were reworked to encourage different attacks? What if a increasing damage modifier could be added for each unique weapon skill that was used if in order it was used X amount of seconds after the last one.

This would encourage say a 1423 combo depending on how much each bonus gives you.

Edit: actually I would like that for every thief spec, but 😂

I just threw an idea that sounded fun to play based on my experience in other MMOs (I think Thief is currently the weakest Rogue fantasy I have ever found in any MMO, which is sad because the skills are cool, and the profession mechanic is fun "on paper", but they completely failed in making it part of the kit/have interaction with the class itself 😞), but at the end of the day, I'll take any change that removes the spam problem and also makes the class more fun and iteresting to play 🙂, chances are 99% that they never consider something similar to what I proposed xD

Edited July 13, 2023 by TheThief.8475
Typooon

[DontPaniC.8740]

This isn't lowest effort but I always wished we had a F3 where we could "summon" one of our weapons for like 1 min. So you can be core thief and summon a boosted staff/rifle/scepter and soon to be axe. Predetermined outside of combat. I don't think that would be OP. Lore wise they can say we pulled it from our vault or safe.

[TheThief.8475]

5 hours ago, DontPaniC.8740 said:

This isn't lowest effort but I always wished we had a F3 where we could "summon" one of our weapons for like 1 min. So you can be core thief and summon a boosted staff/rifle/scepter and soon to be axe. Predetermined outside of combat. I don't think that would be OP. Lore wise they can say we pulled it from our vault or safe.

I'm calling this "lowest effort" because I think that anything less than this would be a worthless rework (because its design is terrible and it's not fun to play at all/ gets boring very quickly)

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 7/13/2023 at 8:47 AM, TheThief.8475 said:

I just threw an idea that sounded fun to play based on my experience in other MMOs (I think Thief is currently the weakest Rogue fantasy I have ever found in any MMO, which is sad because the skills are cool, and the profession mechanic is fun "on paper", but they completely failed in making it part of the kit/have interaction with the class itself 😞), but at the end of the day, I'll take any change that removes the spam problem and also makes the class more fun and iteresting to play 🙂, chances are 99% that they never consider something similar to what I proposed xD

My problem with what you suggested is the random selection of the stolen skill.

 

At least the current method is consistent with what you get based on your target. So you can affect what you get by target selection or plan ahead based on whether or not you will count on the stolen skill.

But even if they're improved if they're randomly selected you'll be disappointed most of the time when it comes up with the option you don't want at that moment.

I like the idea of working with Steal and adding the F3 but I think it will definitely need to add to the enjoyment of the class to be worth spending resources developing... And I'm not sure if it's at that point yet.

[TheThief.8475]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

My problem with what you suggested is the random selection of the stolen skill.

 

At least the current method is consistent with what you get based on your target. So you can affect what you get by target selection or plan ahead based on whether or not you will count on the stolen skill.

But even if they're improved if they're randomly selected you'll be disappointed most of the time when it comes up with the option you don't want at that moment.

I like the idea of working with Steal and adding the F3 but I think it will definitely need to add to the enjoyment of the class to be worth spending resources developing... And I'm not sure if it's at that point yet.

But that's the role of the F3 (selected stolen skill slot). F3 is the skill that you can always rely on and use as part of your plan, while F2 acts as an optional bonus skill that it's always useful but in different ways, so you have to adapt your playstyle/plan on the fly to get the better result 🙂 

Reactive gameplay is fun 😄 

Edited July 14, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[Doggie.3184]

I'm not even sure why they're so against rounding out Teef specs with an F3. Like for Deadeye too; the remarking mechanic of Mercy should be an F3 and not a Utility, it makes me feel like Mark is just missing part of it's function and you need to waste a Utility slot to fix it.

Daredevil just straight up gets steal-fails, like getting Tufts of Fur when you're wielding a Staff and Bow~ it has completely no use against a PvE boss as the Stealth attacks don't do anything if you're not using a Rifle or Dagger.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

3 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I'm not even sure why they're so against rounding out Teef specs with an F3. Like for Deadeye too; the remarking mechanic of Mercy should be an F3 and not a Utility, it makes me feel like Mark is just missing part of it's function and you need to waste a Utility slot to fix it.

Daredevil just straight up gets steal-fails, like getting Tufts of Fur when you're wielding a Staff and Bow~ it has completely no use against a PvE boss as the Stealth attacks don't do anything if you're not using a Rifle or Dagger.

marking a target with steal (workout the bonus effects) and lets say 3 malice points could actually be implemented as a basic mechanism for thief and it would make any build more interesting, mercy as f3 is a really nice idea, i like that 👍🏻

maybe bow and staff can have certain changes to their skills so that malice points are not just triggered by the stealth attack but f.e. also by vault and by cluster bomb.

[TheThief.8475]

9 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I'm not even sure why they're so against rounding out Teef specs with an F3. Like for Deadeye too; the remarking mechanic of Mercy should be an F3 and not a Utility, it makes me feel like Mark is just missing part of it's function and you need to waste a Utility slot to fix it.

True, deadeye mark has a lot of problems and mercy on f3 would help mitigating the issue

There's a lot of bugs with boss transitions/OW bosses where you mark for example the "right arm" of drakkar, but when he moves the arm back to the wall it becomes a new target (does not stack malice, no bonus from mark) until it goes back to the previous position. The same happens with shadow behemoth, when the head is down it is a different target than when the head is up etc. Lot of bad design where they basically forgot about how deadeye mark works (and that it exists probably too)

 

Anyways a free mercy would be a big QoL, (without initiative regen/ stun break, just the cd reset)

They wouldn't even need a F3 actually, they could also flip deadeye mark to mercy while it is on CD 

Edited July 15, 2023 by TheThief.8475

[SlayerXX.7138]

I'm fine with DD being thief+. Not everything needs to be complicated to be good. Only change I want is an increase duration of bound buff so I don't have to jump every second like a ADHD monkey.

If you want to go full ADHA monkey there seems to be an easier solution. Replace Havoc specialist or Impacting disruption with a "endurance spend->initiative" trait. Brawlers tendency becomes a dps buff. Vigor is no longer detrimental. You can hold a dodge because initiative is stored. Anet having a second look on stolen skills would of course not hurt too.