What's Renegade's intended purpose in PvP now?

[Sereath.1428]

@Buran.3796
I hate to say it but hammer does feel like garbage these days, yes, in contrast to sb but also compared to almost every other ranged weapon in the game.
And I used to run hammer everywhere, including for roaming. It was decent, but that was when it had good damage, not worth it nowadays with this kitten CoR and super nerfed damage coefficients everywhere (ty wvw blob balancing).
A shame, since hammer has so many great skins.

But yeah for now, do leave sb as a hybrid weapon.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Sereath.1428 said:

@Buran.3796
I hate to say it but hammer does feel like garbage these days, yes, in contrast to sb but also compared to almost every other ranged weapon in the game.
And I used to run hammer everywhere, including for roaming. It was decent, but that was when it had good damage, not worth it nowadays with this kitten CoR and super nerfed damage coefficients everywhere (ty wvw blob balancing).
A shame, since hammer has so many great skins.

But yeah for now, do leave sb as a hybrid weapon.

hammer needs some looking into yea. Made even a post about it sometime ago suggestion, not going to post it here because probably gets removed off topic lol.

But hammer can be used still ik WvW zergs and depending on build in Spvp.

If you want I can give you the Spvp build I am using with quite some succes? 🙂

[Shagie.7612]

another patch and still nothing to address projectile hate or anything else that plagues renegade
if you're so afraid of something like shortbow vindi or the old 111 spamming renegod, change the weapon

i like bows, i like citadel bombardment, they're fun, it's been 3 years

i'm tired of losing because i have like half the sustain of everyone else even when i avoid the most important hits
thx

[Shagie.7612]

okay well, i think we can see they were not afraid of shortbow vindi/herald, they're just wholly uninterested in giving renegade some sort of niche
pack it up team, better luck next year. at some point they'll probably give it the zerker treatment and make it busted for 6 months on accident.

hope the hammer buffs end up making it more workable. not my jam but hammer's been bad forever and doesn't deserve it. god bless shao lol

trying to play and enjoy niche builds in mmos is always an exercise in frustration. pretty big bummer.

[arazoth.7290]

9 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

okay well, i think we can see they were not afraid of shortbow vindi/herald, they're just wholly uninterested in giving renegade some sort of niche
pack it up team, better luck next year. at some point they'll probably give it the zerker treatment and make it busted for 6 months on accident.

hope the hammer buffs end up making it more workable. not my jam but hammer's been bad forever and doesn't deserve it. god bless shao lol

trying to play and enjoy niche builds in mmos is always an exercise in frustration. pretty big bummer.

It will be used for sure more in pvp now and WvW maybe some more roaming with it even who knows

[Shagie.7612]

5 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

It will be used for sure more in pvp now and WvW maybe some more roaming with it even who knows

e: all good

Drop the hammer my hammer enjoyers. Bonk some skulls

Edited November 1, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Shagie.7612 said:

What?

The one reason you would use it over Herald or Vindicator, that reason being Heartpiercer's extra damage in multi-target situations, is being made baseline to the weapon.

What are you talking about? Why would you play it at all post-patch?

I was talking about hammer 🥲

[Shagie.7612]

Anyways, the way I see it, is if power budgets actually exist in the form of tickets or whatever like they've talked about, then Renegade should do a gajillion damage more than something similarly glass cannon-y, like Chrono considering how much more vulnerable it is in basically every area and how much you give up to play it.

7 shot should actually just do enough to kill things 7 times over.

No more playing around.

[Shagie.7612]

I'm not surprised, but there wasn't anything else done to Heartpiercer.

Bold Reversal, Heartpiercer, and All for One are all incredibly underwhelming now.

You could skip a major Master trait entirely and you would notice virtually no difference to your gameplay, even if you were playing condi renegade (25% more damage on bleeding really doesn't add that much damage in pvp).

In the case of All for One, Kalla is as close to unusable in pvp/wvw as you can get.
You made weapon traits work even when said weapon is unequipped, why not this?

3s of resistance on heal does almost nothing for Bold Reversal. You just take it because there's no other choice.

I'm sick of trying 10x harder than any Scrapper, Vindicator, or any other dps for half the results, and now to pile on top of that you give away the one special thing I had over said Vindi.

I'm really not trying to be mean, but either come out and say you're reworking the abandoned specs like Renegade/Firebrand/whatever, or that you don't want them to be in pvp.

[Shagie.7612]

Revisiting this now, still no changes which isn't surprising, but with the upcoming patch bringing new weapons, it's time to buff Renegade.

With Longbow DH being brought back into the meta and being allowed to do significantly more damage than shortbow but with 1500 range. I think Heartpiercer should buff the range to 1200, or buff damage in some way. If you get caught with LB5 into LB2, you're gonna die. How come that can't also be true of SB5 into SB3+IO?
I don't care that all shortbows are 900, give the spec some extra distance and safety and a reason it's better with its weapon over Herald/Vindi.

The only options here to actually make Renegade a compelling choice are to buff sustain and utility pretty dramatically, because if you were to increase Renegade's damage proportionally to how much less sustain it has compared to things like Vindi, DH, Chrono, etc, you'd have to increase it by an insane amount and nobody wants to see Sevenshot instantly down people.

We are quite literally approaching 4 years since the big Feb 2020 patch that wrecked a lot of specs, that you've since largely undone. Renegade got nerfed a little later down the line, but come on.

It's been a long time. I don't really like Vindicator's modified dodge, I wanna throw missles at people instead.
Even just doing casual pvp for dailies gets frustrating sometimes.

e:
I've lost it.
Make one of the Citadel Order skills break stuns, who cares. Any comparable build is just superior in every single area. Go nuts with your changes, make it as busted as everyone else.

Edited January 12 by Shagie.7612

[Buran.3796]

   Not entirely related but I would want to share my experiences in the just finished 39th  PvP Season.

   This has been probably the one in which I've played the most (240 matches, usually I do 90-120) and the worst (I started with good placement at mid gold tier 2 but ended losing over 170 points and with only 110 wins)  with  ~46% w/l ratio which is just atrocius. 90% of those were power Vindi matches with a bit of condi Vindi and Guardian trials here and there.

  Overall I think that Rev struggles to deal damage and even in the zerkest glass canon builds the performance is mediocre. Renegade has weakness in both mobility and self sustain, since lacks access to The Alliance and the traitline is bland, but at least the F skills do something. Herald is not even bad (in the sense that doesn't reach the bad catergory) and just feels like a worse Vindi. Saw Zeus playing it very well in high ranked matches but I had the impression He just had to put much effort to add value to the team, in the sense that other specs and professions would have more impact with less effort.

   I'm now starting the placements in 3 v 3 nad had the impression that the condi Rev is better in that gamemode, because there power has more struggles to use mobility to survive, whereas con condi you can survive just landing your chains of cc because interrupting your foes gains time for your condis and allies to dent into enemie's HP and also to prevent damage and pressure.

[Shagie.7612]

NOTHIN IN THE PATCH PREVIEW?

Firebrand, the other elite close to the same level of bad gets buffs it sorely needs, though I think it's a bit strange to go with two support builds on the same class, especially when core Guard is already the best one by a considerable margin but whatever

But Renegade?
Unarguably the worst elite in the game after this.

also the preview was made before I posted yesterday, but hidden until the morning after, so I made a post in-between those times and now look really stupid lol, brutal

Edited January 13 by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

NOTHIN IN THE PATCH PREVIEW?

Firebrand, the other elite close to the same level of bad gets buffs it sorely needs, though I think it's a bit strange to go with two support builds on the same class, especially when core Guard is already the best one by a considerable margin but whatever

But Renegade?
Unarguably the worst elite in the game after this.

also the preview was made before I posted yesterday, but hidden until the morning after, so I made a post in-between those times and now look really stupid lol, brutal

Maybe (fingers crossed) with the next big seasonly balance patch. This is still just a minor one, which they do inbetween sometimes.

[Shagie.7612]

ayo bumping this because i wanna play mallyx and yoink people because i think it's much more fun than traditional power rev legends
turn renegade into a condi dps that's actually scary instead of it being like 90% torment, 9% bleed and poor condi cover

skull grinder straight up does like 9 different condis, meanwhile it's real easy to clean off anything rev does

condi herald can remain the sidenoder version

LEMME YOINK

the weapon patch will probably not have very many balance changes
i'm gonna lose it if that's true

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

ayo bumping this because i wanna play mallyx and yoink people because i think it's much more fun than traditional power rev legends
turn renegade into a condi dps that's actually scary instead of it being like 90% torment, 9% bleed and poor condi cover

skull grinder straight up does like 9 different condis, meanwhile it's real easy to clean off anything rev does

condi herald can remain the sidenoder version

LEMME YOINK

the weapon patch will probably not have very many balance changes
i'm gonna lose it if that's true

prepare to lose it

[Shagie.7612]

On 2/10/2024 at 5:10 AM, arazoth.7290 said:

prepare to lose it

unfortunately, probably

i don't think the scepter's gonna be that big of a deal for most non-support builds unless it's super overtuned
the pop on the 2 skill hit decently hard during the beta but i dunno that it'd be worth using over options

i don't think it's particularly meant to be either, it's largely a support oriented weapon and should fill that purpose, it doesn't need to be a weapon for dps builds

just hoping it doesn't mean more months of waiting for changes to currently underperforming parts of classes

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

unfortunately, probably

i don't think the scepter's gonna be that big of a deal for most non-support builds unless it's super overtuned
the pop on the 2 skill hit decently hard during the beta but i dunno that it'd be worth using over options

i don't think it's particularly meant to be either, it's largely a support oriented weapon and should fill that purpose, it doesn't need to be a weapon for dps builds

just hoping it doesn't mean more months of waiting for changes to currently underperforming parts of classes

Some might not agree with it or for idk whatever reason. But I hope they listen to the feedback I gave or some few others who had also good ideas for scepter.

And if it isn't, it will gradually change in right direction overtime, but I really hope not that slow and that they do it fast 😅.

Making a weapon good can be done the ez way by buffing up those numbers even higher that it becomes stupid. But for making a good weapon, the base mechanics how it works/what it does needs to be well thought out. Numbers can be slightly adjusted always later for tuning

[Shagie.7612]

Surprise Renegade rework in the patch:

Basically, ghosts are no longer attackable and are instead turned into something like Ranger spirits and are a short duration burst effect, summoning one grants you a buff that empowers the next summon.

Not sure how to feel about it for now. They'll certainly be more usable in WvW, I've been playing it in zergs already just for funzies and it'll be significantly better there, but you lose the daze spam which is arguably the strongest part of the legend.

I do think I'll miss having the long duration ghost buddies though.

One thing I'd like to add that everyone keeps mentioning about this spec, revs and nonrevs alike, as part of the reason why they hate it existing and how it can't be healthy for pvp, is that the biggest reason that made it so literally doesn't exist within the games mechanics anymore.
Damage reduction math is entirely different now.
The other being that it was completely forgotten in the big 2020 patch.

Edited February 16 by Shagie.7612

[Buran.3796]

Changes in Vindi & Ventari should nuke Vindi out of the zerg WvW meta, but good luck trying to put Renegade in that role since there's stronger support options.

[Shagie.7612]

realistically i wasn't gonna ever play support anyways because support is lame and big numbers are fun
but now your ghosts won't immediately evaporate from unintentional cleave

big bummer about losing the daze spam, the -50% incoming condition damage, and massive vulnerability stacks from the summons though

hoping they add some condi removal somewhere now since it has literally none and lost the major part of its condition damage mitigation

Edited February 17 by Shagie.7612

[Shagie.7612]

Man look how optimistic past me was. What a dummy.

Anyways so like, I'm just raging here because there's a lot of frustrating match ups, but since fighting Holosmith as condi rev is beyond hopeless since they're basically immune to condis, I think I should be equally immune to strike damage via Embrace the Darkness and Soulcleave also pulsing blind or aegis or something stupid like that. I've given up on actual fairness.

Anyways uhh, really frustrating how they won't make any changes to Renegade, Kalla still needs a ton of help and I'm not entirely convinced you can do so with the way the mechanics of the legend work, and Mallyx/condi rev in general's been pretty underwhelming since the torment change.

Maybe it's time to make the spec actually a decent build so Rev can play something other than the same sword/sword herald and vindicator (now with extra hammer flavor) builds they've been mostly stuck to for the last uhh... the entire time the class has existed

You missed the mark really badly, I don't say that to be mean or anything, but it's very clearly still really bad and I would like to be properly rewarded for my skill level and for making good plays, and it feels bad when that doesn't work or when I don't have the options to actually DO anything against something that's good.
Why no quick adjustments to remedy that despite the spec/legend being one of the biggest targets of the patch?

 

I made this thread in August, they gave out the pierce for free in October, and there's been almost no meaningful improvements in that time to Renegade, both in its traits and for Kalla to make it stronger when it's clear all Renegade builds are some of the worst possible condi/power/support builds out there DESPITE a significant rework. Again I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just extremely frustrated, but that's kinda pathetic.
How does this happen?

Edited Friday at 05:49 AM by Shagie.7612

[arazoth.7290]

They keep on doing half work on so many things.

In the stream, I heard 1 of them respond if it will need buffs or not and he responded, I doubt it will need buffs.

When I did read what they were doing, it's nice they gave it attention but it was far by not done like they thought.