Yeee fractal CMs LFG is not fair for new players at all

[Dark Viper.2378]

Recently i got into 97-100 CMs and so far did it twice, but twice from the past WEEK, its because there are no parties in that LFG that hosts one without a UFE of like 5+, instead I need to host one in LFG and type "be experienced and know mechanics" and get people who dies pre 66 on 100 CM 3 times (somehow). I get that people need more experienced people for the fight when they cleared it 100 times, but having NO LFG for the newer players is a big problem. UNLESS there is a server that helps players in this kind of thing, because there is no other way for them to climb up without at least getting bunch of help

[Ashantara.8731]

You don't have servers in PvE (unless you meant EU<>NA).

It is true that it is difficult when you are not new to Fractals, but new-ish to CMs. UFE is the only kill proof to ensure you are playing with experienced teammates.

[GeraldBC.4927]

It's not just hostile to new players, it's also hostile to everyone else who hasn't done CMs for literal years. It feels a lot like the people pugging for fractal CMs want CMs to be a closed system where no-one new joins their community. Similar to how raids used to be, but way worse. 

GW2's community is uniquely gatekeepy, especially in fractal CMs. It's not even about experience, they just want old players. If it were about experience, the amounts of UFE asked for in LFGs would be a fraction of what they are. At most, people would ask for 1.6k UFE (completing all 4 CMs successfully 10 times) or for one of those extra fancy no-healer runs, 3.2k UFE (completing all of them 20 times). But instead they're asking for 10k, 15k, 20k, 60k, the numbers are getting bigger and bigger as new CM runners accumulate UFE.

Oh you got 5k? Well screw you, every lfg asks for 10k now.

Oh, you're approaching 10k? Well, now every lfg is asking for 15k. 

I'm not even remotely close to 15k and yet already I'm seeing more and more asking for 20k. I can only infer that this shift is aimed at keeping out someone else who has already surpassed 15k.

If you're turning away people who have done everything successfully 40+ times over, it ain't about experience anymore. At this point they might as well ask for Unstable Cosmic Essences since the thing they really want seems to be people who have been playing for years. 

Edited September 30, 2023 by GeraldBC.4927

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

1 hour ago, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It's not just hostile to new players, it's also hostile to everyone else who hasn't done CMs for literal years. It feels a lot like the people pugging for fractal CMs want CMs to be a closed system where no-one new joins their community. Similar to how raids used to be, but way worse. 

GW2's community is uniquely gatekeepy, especially in fractal CMs. It's not even about experience, they just want old players. If it were about experience, the amounts of UFE asked for in LFGs would be a fraction of what they are. At most, people would ask for 1.6k UFE (completing all 4 CMs successfully 10 times) or for one of those extra fancy no-healer runs, 3.2k UFE (completing all of them 20 times). But instead they're asking for 10k, 15k, 20k, 60k, the numbers are getting bigger and bigger as new CM runners accumulate UFE.

Oh you got 5k? Well screw you, every lfg asks for 10k now.

Oh, you're approaching 10k? Well, now every lfg is asking for 15k. 

I'm not even remotely close to 15k and yet already I'm seeing more and more asking for 20k. I can only infer that this shift is aimed at keeping out someone else who has already surpassed 15k.

If you're turning away people who have done everything successfully 40+ times over, it ain't about experience anymore. At this point they might as well ask for Unstable Cosmic Essences since the thing they really want seems to be people who have been playing for years. 

In NA they ask for titles, like Dances with Demons or Nightmare Aspect...
BUT! quite often I see these people lacking the ability to even activate the CM mote itself, which is hilariously ironic, they then disband becuz everyone has "proof" that they passed the CM Deathless...and meant absolutely nothing in that circumstance, becuz they were too lazy to even finish the NM achieves off.

The gatekeepers always come up with 10 million reasons why such and such is needed, and even try to insult ppl who don't gatekeep (I kick those).
The reason these ppl seem to try so hard to speedrun "farm content" in the game, yet cudn't find Statics in their Guilds to efficiently and stably do it, instead being forced to look for pugs that they don't trust...I wonder why? It cudn't possssssibly be that overly toxic attitude...right?

[MalekithDG.6124]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:15 PM, Dark Viper.2378 said:

Recently i got into 97-100 CMs and so far did it twice, but twice from the past WEEK, its because there are no parties in that LFG that hosts one without a UFE of like 5+, instead I need to host one in LFG and type "be experienced and know mechanics" and get people who dies pre 66 on 100 CM 3 times (somehow). I get that people need more experienced people for the fight when they cleared it 100 times, but having NO LFG for the newer players is a big problem. UNLESS there is a server that helps players in this kind of thing, because there is no other way for them to climb up without at least getting bunch of help

If ANET implements newbie LFG absolutely nothing would change. Do you raid? If so you should already anticipate the result from Raid(training) tab. None uses it, once or twice a week some dude opens up a training run and thats it. ANET cant "knowledge check", thats why you have people asking for kill proof like +5k UFE. Because there are no guarantees that newbs would like to play with each other. If such a LFG would exist you would still be getting the same bad apples you are getting now because everyone wants to complete it but none wants to watch a video guide about it man, they all depend on someone other than themselves.  If ANET arbitrarily implements a LFG that automatically keeps track of how much completions you got in a CM and allows you to match with similar players then... You would still play with same people because you only completed it twice yourself. The point is, there arent any reliable ways to knowledge check people and make sure they wont fill your parties.

Having to body through bad/new players is something you need to get used to for high end content like CM's man. If you are unhappy with the amount of bad/new players in LFG or want to be able to get in higher level groups without 5k UFE I recommend you to get yourself into a dedicated PVE guild and a static. They show you the ropes and you get friends.

Alternatively you can buy your way through to 5k UFE, people sell CM's.

Edited October 1, 2023 by MalekithDG.6124

[Tdub.7628]

On 9/6/2023 at 1:15 PM, Dark Viper.2378 said:

UNLESS there is a server that helps players in this kind of thing,

That's us. We help new players with endgame content. I'll reach out to you later. @Dark Viper.2378

Edited October 11, 2023 by Tdub.7628

[Cyninja.2954]

On 10/1/2023 at 1:54 AM, GeraldBC.4927 said:

It's not just hostile to new players, it's also hostile to everyone else who hasn't done CMs for literal years. It feels a lot like the people pugging for fractal CMs want CMs to be a closed system where no-one new joins their community. Similar to how raids used to be, but way worse. 

GW2's community is uniquely gatekeepy, especially in fractal CMs. It's not even about experience, they just want old players. If it were about experience, the amounts of UFE asked for in LFGs would be a fraction of what they are. At most, people would ask for 1.6k UFE (completing all 4 CMs successfully 10 times) or for one of those extra fancy no-healer runs, 3.2k UFE (completing all of them 20 times). But instead they're asking for 10k, 15k, 20k, 60k, the numbers are getting bigger and bigger as new CM runners accumulate UFE.

Makes sense, and you are able to double check that players did all 4 CMs instead of 1 CM 4 times how without spending a lot of extra time? Please enlighten those of us who don't know the secret.

Quote

 

Oh you got 5k? Well screw you, every lfg asks for 10k now.

Oh, you're approaching 10k? Well, now every lfg is asking for 15k. 

I'm not even remotely close to 15k and yet already I'm seeing more and more asking for 20k. I can only infer that this shift is aimed at keeping out someone else who has already surpassed 15k.

 

The LFG demands grow because they are responding to growth of overall available UFE. The growth is slower than total UFE which can be gained in the same period of time, meaming catching up IS possible. Unfortunately this is also based around running CMs almost daily.

Quote

If you're turning away people who have done everything successfully 40+ times over, it ain't about experience anymore. At this point they might as well ask for Unstable Cosmic Essences since the thing they really want seems to be people who have been playing for years. 

Again, you are simply ignoring inflation of currency here. Since you enjoy bringing up numbers, GW2 efficiency lists the top player as owning 166k UFE and the top 25 all hovering around 140k UFE. That's more than 10-15 times the amount asked for in compared to the LFG listings you mention.

The core issue here is not wanting to keep new players out. It's a poor system (yes, it be great if we had a better one but we do not) adapting to inflation and multiple ways of acquiring the same item/resource.

This is also not a new phenomenon. It happened with UCE and it happened with raids. UCE grew slower because the amount of fights which rewarded UCE, 2 CMs back then, was half of what we have today. The requirements still grew to 300 and eventually 400 UCE eventually for no healer runs (up from 200 for no healer runs). Raids steadily grew in their LI demands until it transitioned into a strait KP demand system.

[Passerbye.6291]

On 9/6/2023 at 9:15 PM, Dark Viper.2378 said:

instead I need to host one in LFG and type "be experienced and know mechanics" and get people who dies pre 66 on 100 CM 3 times (somehow).

You stated the very reason why people ask for killproof in your own message. I do training runs for various endgame content semifrequently, and whenever I want to have a smooth run since I've run out of patience for teaching for the day, if I don't request killproof and just say "know mechanics", more often than not I'll get people who don't know the mechanics at all and still remain quiet in the hopes of going unnoticed, then wipe the group because some mistakes not only cost your life, but also your team members' in some content.

As much as I don't like groups with ridiculously high requirements, everyone is free to set their LFG as they wish, commanders are just players in this game, noone owes you favours. Sometimes we just want to get things done, and done quickly at that, and killproof requirements are currently the closest way to ensuring that.

I'm tired of people saying things like X content is super easy, you don't need this much damage or you can carry that with 3 people. I've done that multiple times already, and it gets old, some days, you just want to have a chill run without clenching your butt cheeks because you have to 3-man OLC for the last 2 phases.

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The LFG demands grow because they are responding to growth of overall available UFE. The growth is slower than total UFE which can be gained in the same period of time, meaming catching up IS possible. Unfortunately this is also based around running CMs almost daily.

Again, you are simply ignoring inflation of currency here. Since you enjoy bringing up numbers, GW2 efficiency lists the top player as owning 166k UFE and the top 25 all hovering around 140k UFE. That's more than 10-15 times the amount asked for in compared to the LFG listings you mention.

What the hell are you talking about? Kill proof is not a currency, it's only supposed to be a check to prove you know what you're doing, and a crude one at that. The fact that more players have kill proofs now doesn't devalue the fact that they have the capability to complete the CM multiple times.

There will come a point that having more KP does not delineate an increase in ability. A player who has been scraping by, getting carried by their team for years will have more KP than a player with a dozen solid completions, and I know which one I would rather have in my party.

I ask you this, what is the difference between a player that has 5k now when the top players have 140k, and a player that had 5k when the top players had 40k, and why does that difference necessitate increasing the UFE required to join a party?

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

On 9/6/2023 at 8:15 PM, Dark Viper.2378 said:

Recently i got into 97-100 CMs and so far did it twice, but twice from the past WEEK, its because there are no parties in that LFG that hosts one without a UFE of like 5+, instead I need to host one in LFG and type "be experienced and know mechanics" and get people who dies pre 66 on 100 CM 3 times (somehow).

You've perfectly explained why groups ask for high KP in this sentence.

[Cyninja.2954]

3 hours ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

What the hell are you talking about? Kill proof is not a currency, it's only supposed to be a check to prove you know what you're doing, and a crude one at that.

First off, there is a difference between KP and LI/UFE/UCE. The former is attained via ONLY 1 boss usually, the later via a variety type of content.

Quote

The fact that more players have kill proofs now doesn't devalue the fact that they have the capability to complete the CM multiple times.

Sure it does, if we are talking about the maximum number of KP/UFE possible. Explained later on in case you don't understand.

Quote

There will come a point that having more KP does not delineate an increase in ability. A player who has been scraping by, getting carried by their team for years will have more KP than a player with a dozen solid completions, and I know which one I would rather have in my party.

True, but as mentioned this is an imperfect system. It is also unlikely that a player is being carried for years on end. Great argument as to WHY the number keeps growing by the way, especially if there is multiple encounters which provide said KP, as is the case for fractal CMs.

Quote

I ask you this, what is the difference between a player that has 5k now when the top players have 140k, and a player that had 5k when the top players had 40k, and why does that difference necessitate increasing the UFE required to join a party?

Simple, if a total of 5k UFE where available, asking for 5k UFE would represent asking for players which have acquired EVERY SINGLE UFE possible, thus proving they have completed the content EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Now as that total possible number grows, and especially when there are multiple sources for the desired KP/(to ping item), so does the demand from players. It's an imperfect way to try to increase the chance of getting payers which completed all content, instead of just some.

The later point is also a great explanation why individual content KP, attainable from just 1 encounter, eventually stops growing while rewards from multiple encounters (specifically LI and UFE, UCE in the past) keep increasing. Notice that while UCE remained rather stable for a long time, since it was available from only 2 fights, it too increased over time. This counts double for UFE.

For example: getting to 5k UFE is rather simple with skipping say 100CM or even skipping 99CM and 100CM. There where listings for a long time which for example excluded the old 100CM (now 99CM) and the LFGs read 98+99CM+T4 for MONTHS. Now add 100CM to that, factor for time and it should become rather obvious why some groups are growing their demands.

Let's say I am looking to fill a group worth 5k UFE. I could get players which have completed 2 CMs for 80 days, or players which completed 3 CMs for 41 days. So after 41 days, asking for 5k UFE would ensure that I get players which have completed 3 CMs. After 80 days, chances are still high that players which join for 5k UFE have completed all 3 CMs at least a couple of times. After 125 days even players which have done only 1 CM daily would have reached 5k UFE.

I gave the total amount of UFE possible to illustrate how much is possible at the top end. Think of this as 125 days having past and even far far more. Now some players are asking for more than 5k UFE because anyone who has even remotely touched CMs will have accumulated more than 5k UFE. In fact, let's do the math here:

100,000 UFE / 120 = 833

833 x 40 = 33,320

I reduced the amount of UFE to a round number and to accommodate for lucky drops, it's still far below the total possible. I also used 120 UFE per day instead of 160, since 100CM hasn't been around that long.

Now if I wanted to make sure that no player which has only done 1 CM daily joins my group, I'd have to ask for 33,320 UFE.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

4 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

First off, there is a difference between KP and LI/UFE/UCE. The former is attained via ONLY 1 boss usually, the later via a variety type of content.

Okay, I'll agree that you can make a distinction here if you want to, I was using KP in the general sense, whatever token you get to prove you have completed a given piece of content.

11 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

True, but as mentioned this is an imperfect system. It is also unlikely that a player is being carried for years on end. Great argument as to WHY the number keeps growing by the way, especially if there is multiple encounters which provide said KP, as is the case for fractal CMs.

I do agree that if they introduce multiple ways to gain the same tokens, especially if one is very easy to obtain then sure, I think we both agree that the system is imperfect. But I would argue that all this does is completely devalue the KP as a whole to the point that asking for any quantity is irrelevant, since a player could have simply been grinding the easy content for weeks on end. Meanwhile you gate keep and exclude a very good player who has completed the difficult content but just hasn't been doing it for as long. There is simply no way to tell.

14 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

For example: getting to 5k UFE is rather simple with skipping say 100CM or even skipping 99CM and 100CM. There where listings for a long time which for example excluded the old 100CM (now 99CM) and the LFGs read 98+99CM+T4 for MONTHS. Now add 100CM to that, factor for time and it should become rather obvious why some groups are growing their demands.

Let's say I am looking to fill a group worth 5k UFE. I could get players which have completed 2 CMs for 80 days, or players which completed 3 CMs for 41 days. So after 41 days, asking for 5k UFE would ensure that I get players which have completed 3 CMs. After 80 days, chances are still high that players which join for 5k UFE have completed all 3 CMs at least a couple of times. After 125 days even players which have done only 1 CM daily would have reached 5k UFE.

 

I think the point here is that you can only raise the entry bar so much before you unfairly exclude skilled players who have not had the required time to accrue what you ask for in your efforts to weed out the carry's who have been grinding the easy method for a long time. It doesn't take more than a few CM runs to be perfectly competent at it (if you're a good player) but such a player starting out only recently isn't going to achieve the required KP being asked, despite the fact that when the concept of KP was new the number of proofs being asked for was lower, yet those players had no more experience at the time than the newer player does now.

This in essence becomes the gate keeping that has been mentioned by other posts, it becomes a club of players who have both been playing for a long time and at a high level. You have an ever increasing grey area of players who have one or the other (time or skill), but you only admit players who have both, when what you should be asking for is skill alone for CMs and KP becomes ever more imperfect at identifying that.

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

Okay, I'll agree that you can make a distinction here if you want to, I was using KP in the general sense, whatever token you get to prove you have completed a given piece of content.

I do agree that if they introduce multiple ways to gain the same tokens, especially if one is very easy to obtain then sure, I think we both agree that the system is imperfect. But I would argue that all this does is completely devalue the KP as a whole to the point that asking for any quantity is irrelevant, since a player could have simply been grinding the easy content for weeks on end. Meanwhile you gate keep and exclude a very good player who has completed the difficult content but just hasn't been doing it for as long. There is simply no way to tell.

I think the point here is that you can only raise the entry bar so much before you unfairly exclude skilled players who have not had the required time to accrue what you ask for in your efforts to weed out the carry's who have been grinding the easy method for a long time. It doesn't take more than a few CM runs to be perfectly competent at it (if you're a good player) but such a player starting out only recently isn't going to achieve the required KP being asked, despite the fact that when the concept of KP was new the number of proofs being asked for was lower, yet those players had no more experience at the time than the newer player does now.

This in essence becomes the gate keeping that has been mentioned by other posts, it becomes a club of players who have both been playing for a long time and at a high level. You have an ever increasing grey area of players who have one or the other (time or skill), but you only admit players who have both, when what you should be asking for is skill alone for CMs and KP becomes ever more imperfect at identifying that.

Oh I absolutely agree with you on the raising the bar part. I was just explaining the behavior behind what is happening, doesn't mean I agree with it (though I do think players should always get to choose their LFGs). It's also a reason why I genuinely believe having a proper kill tracking system would be far superior instead of making players run through hoops.

On the upside, not all groups ask for the maximum amount of KP/UFE. The bigger issue here player base wise seems to be more and more players drifting off into their own communities or leaving the content (I've been FG for 3-4 years now and I haven't set foot into a PUG group in months, maybe even years). We usually run as 5 but if we do have to fill up, we often ask for 5-10k UFE quite simply because not everyone re-rolls to say power dps for 98CM or perfect instant break on Enyoss. We've been getting players as high as 80k UFE joining and usually it's always fine.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Oh I absolutely agree with you on the raising the bar part. I was just explaining the behavior behind what is happening, doesn't mean I agree with it (though I do think players should always get to choose their LFGs). It's also a reason why I genuinely believe having a proper kill tracking system would be far superior instead of making players run through hoops.

On the upside, not all groups ask for the maximum amount of KP/UFE. The bigger issue here player base wise seems to be more and more players drifting off into their own communities or leaving the content (I've been FG for 3-4 years now and I haven't set foot into a PUG group in months, maybe even years). We usually run as 5 but if we do have to fill up, we often ask for 5-10k UFE quite simply because not everyone re-rolls to say power dps for 98CM or perfect instant break on Enyoss. We've been getting players as high as 80k UFE joining and usually it's always fine.

100% a proper kill tracking system would be good. Even for your own personal achievement. There is an argument that this only leads to kitten comparison and further elitism. But that can't be much worse than what we have now, where players are asking for arbitrary quantities of a token (that you can also spend on stuff).

I used to PUG T4 fractals regularly, and generally found it to be no problem, I know it's not the same as CMs and I haven't tried public groups for those yet. But generally I found most people capable enough to get through the content. If we couldn't do it, the weak link was more often than not the one complaining the loudest and belittling everyone else. As soon as they rage quit and we got another player in, we'd usually complete the content on the next try.

[emtea.6931]

the trouble is, once you get to a point with experience/skill, your main enjoyment from the content is clearing it fast. if you have a good (pug) run for all CM+T4 you're somewhere around 1 hour.. if you have a few wipes, that can blow out to 1.5 hours or worse, no one wants that

the other difference about fractals compared to raids/strikes is that underperforming players show up more. if you have 6 dps players in a raid and 1 isn't doing a great job, then it's less impactful than when you have 3 dps players in a fractal and 1 of them isn't doing well..

best thing you can do with fractals is try and get 2/3/4 friends to run with regularly and just pug the rest. running with a semi fixed group you'll get to know each other's play well and you'll get smoother runs. sadly that doesn't really help the LFG situation. there are some discord servers that can help with finding people in your time zone

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

one big issue is that those requirements don't guarantee a good run, even getting a group of all fractal god's doesn't guarantee a good run. there are many ways to cheat stuff like progress and titles in this game (even buying them), to get hard carried over and over, day after day and week after week.

 

you won't actually know whether someone is worth playing with until you actually play with them. even then, you don't know if someone is just burned out, or having a bad day or something like that, and is actually a good player who is simply not at their best. they could also be on a character or build they don't normally play, and so on and still perform poorly despite having a high ranking.

 

we, as a community, have simply come to expect too much for content that doesn't even require too much effort to clear.

Edited November 1, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[emtea.6931]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

even then, you don't know if someone is just burned out, or having a bad day or something like that, and is actually a good player who is simply not at their best.

this so much. I wonder how many good players have blocked by someone for having an off day. 

[Nimris.3781]

12 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

you won't actually know whether someone is worth playing with until you actually play with them. even then, you don't know if someone is just burned out, or having a bad day or something like that, and is actually a good player who is simply not at their best. they could also be on a character or build they don't normally play, and so on and still perform poorly despite having a high ranking.

you cant assume every single time that "oh he had a bad day... maybe his mum is sick and he is worried? i am sure that his gf dumped him recently and his dog broke its paw!". it almost sounds like an excuse to never improve

its quite easy to spot bad/inexperienced player just after 1-2 fights so blocks after doing daily are always justified. if you have someone dying on nearly every fight, not doing strip on npng, often failing mechanics and doing half of expected dps its pretty obvious he is either very inexperienced (low ufe) or just simply bad (high ufe). so if you see someone with 20k+ ufe doing alac dps its clear that he is just bad player carried by others (guild?). he already did cm's 150 times, thats more than enough to know whats going on and it has nothing to do with bad day.

13 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

one big issue is that those requirements don't guarantee a good run, even getting a group of all fractal god's doesn't guarantee a good run. there are many ways to cheat stuff like progress and titles in this game (even buying them), to get hard carried over and over, day after day and week after week.

you cant cheat on ufe and since you cant ask everyone for their "CV's" and run recruitment interview everyday (checking logs etc.) its just easier to stick to kp's. its also faster to go in wipe and kick if someone turns out to be really bad. like it or not, but kp is the most feasible option here.

 

The reality is that ufe requirements are result of player experience and how smooth runs go. over last 2 years i was playing fractals, requirements didnt change at all and are still 0-3k, 5k, 10k, 15k, 20k and occasional 30k with 5/10k being most common. if you consider them too high, than its mostly fault of lazy/bad players