Revenant stuff that needs MOST attention + suggestions + discussion

[arazoth.7290]

I will post my suggestions  first ( you can fill in further ) + what I think needs the most attention currently since a long time !

RENEGADE:

For renegade to become better, the elite stance needs a rework buff. Like Herald and Vindicator elite stance are normally always used because they work well and bring the elite specialisation well out. This isn't with kalla going on atm.

 

I will present a few suggestions here: 

 

• traits: I don't want to change something drastically here before the kalla elite stance gets fixed.

 

The only change for CORE renegade shortbow skill 3 => Give it a stationary 0,5 second dodge because of the low cd it is a shorter dodge duration.

 

•Kalla stance:

 

* Make the kalla summons unhittable/ not cc able, let it function like wells !

 

* Breakrazor's Bastion (heal) => Increase the self instant heal high enough like other heals for self sustain !

 

The pulsing heal should become only outgoing for allies and because you don't gain self profit from outgoing, increase the outgoing pulsing heal.

 

* Razorclaw's rage => Currently it pulses 10 times/1second and the buff doesn't stack.

 

I would advice to let it pulse 10 times/0,5second and the buff should stack with a 5 seconds duration staying active to use it.

 

* Darkrazor's Daring => 1 second stability changes to 3 seconds stability.

 

*Icerazor's Ire => this shouldn't hit enemies individual/pulse. Eveyone in the aoe should get hit at the same time/pulse.!!!

 

Make it do instead reduced damage/pulse, like greatsword 5 mechanic. The damage reduced/pulse is different then greatsword 5 because it has more pulses, more graduatly.

 

*Soulcleaves Summit => After the upkeep give it a 2nd ability on 5 second short cd. This 2nd ability would be an aoe drain life cleave on the amount of times upkeep was used by everyone at max x cap range. You would aoe life steal and everyone inside it benefits.

 

 

SHIELD:

 

• I would prefere if shield 4 was a follow up skill ability. You throw that light bolt at destination (animation travel needs faster too) and if it is landed you have 3 second time to press it for a teleport on targeted location. This way you can choose if you want to go inside the situation or hold distance!

• shield 5 skill, should share healing 100% for that cost and low mobility still or pulse outgoing only aegis 360-600 radius (radius depends on content pvp or pve)

 

 

HAMMER: 

 

 

° hammer skill 1 auto attack:                   1 sec cast => 0,75 sec cast

                                                                         33% faster projectile traveling speed.

 

° hammer skill 2 coalescence of ruin:     0,75 sec cast => 0,5 sec cast

                                                                         10 sec cd => 6 sec cd

                                                                         Hit range starts at the player, not from further away like now. And in pve it could use an increase in damage

hammer skill 2 could add enemies who get hit deal 20% reduced physical/condi damage to your allies. Allies who get hit by it receive 20% less condi/physical damage. This effect doesn't stack obv. (They could add this if it would still feel underpowered). 

 

° Hammer skill 3 phase smash:                 for pvp/WvW damage looks fine. Maybe for pve some more damage increase?

 

° Hammer skill 4  field of the mists:        1 of the more unique skills and shouldn't be changed.

 

° Hammer skill 5 drop of the hammer:  

hammer 5 skill when casting taunts/pulls enemies inwards (like the dwarf chains). When the cast is complete the stun hits in 240 radius.

Because of this, it hits more often and the 240 radius doesn't needs to be made larger.

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

No particular order, but some changes that I think should be done to help, starting with;

Vindicator

• Underwater Leaps - Leaping underwater when using either Death Drop or Imperial Impact results in a much longer cast time than it should have compared to above water. These were not adjusted, though ironically Saint's Shield was and has a much faster cast time for the evasion time. This results in an excruciating lockout period and DPS loss for the vindicator in what is a key ability in our kit in underwater situations as you cannot perform any other actions while waiting for this animation to finish which has both an animation activation time and a cast bar after said animation time.
• Selfless Spirit - While Urn of Saint Viktor is being maintained, Selfless Spirit also attempts to revive downstate allies (since the revenant cannot heal while the urn is active).
• Leviathan Strength - As suggested by FreshF here, this trait should also affect condition damage.
• Forerunner of Death - This should also increase condition damage.
• Vassals of the Empire - Scavenger's Burst and Tree Song now grant Quickness to allies within the radius of the attack. Alternatively, remove Protection from Imperial Impact and replace it with Quickness (however this might be problematic due to Scavenger's Burst).
• Urn of Saint Viktor - Change the Movement speed bonus to super speed. Add in a boon pulse for Aegis every 25 seconds on the urn that affects allies only.
• Drop Urn of Saint Viktor - Give the Urn the ability to inflict breakbar damage, say around 50 points given it can be spammed faster than Reaver's Rage. Increase the thresholds of the bonuses to 90% 70% and 50% respectively.

Herald

• Forceful Persistence - This should also increase condition damage.

Renegade

• Kalla should be usable under water. Have all the wells spawn on the revenant, with the Charr overlaying the Revenant. Essentially what is done with necromancer wells and have it move with the revenant like scrapper wells.

Ventari

• Ventari should be usable under water. Have the tablet center on the revenant, like wells for necros, and it moves with the revenant much like wells for Scrappers.

 

I still think it is silly that a support build doesn't meet the criteria for support that the community, and essentially ANet, has set forth. So my suggestions for vindicator are supplying answers to that. I am also a bit baffled why when leveling there seems such a strong emphasis on our condition damage that our elite specs focus so heavily on power, except for Kalla who has her own problems. And compound that fact for support based builds, half of our kit is unusable in water, unless you're a renegade then the entirety of your kit is unusable under water. I think these are things that need to be addressed for sure.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360
Added an alternative to Vassal's and fixed some errors.

[arazoth.7290]

12 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

No particular order, but some changes that I think should be done to help with  starting with;

Vindicator

• Underwater Leaps - Leaping underwater when using either Death Drop or Imperial Impact results in a much longer cast time than it should have compared to above water. These were not adjusted, though ironically Saint's Shield was and has a much faster cast time for the evasion time. This results in an excruciating lockout period and DPS loss for the vindicator in what is a key ability in our kit in underwater situations as you cannot perform any other actions while waiting for this animation to finish which has both an animation activation time and a cast bar after said animation time.
• Selfless Spirit - While Urn of Saint Viktor is being maintained, Selfless spirit also attempts to revive downstate allies (since the revenant cannot heal while the urn is active).
• Leviathan Strength - As suggested by FreshF here, this trait should also affect condition damage.
• Forerunner of Death - This should also increase condition damage.
• Vassals of the Empire - Scavenger's Burst and Tree song now grant Quickness to allies within the radius of the attack.
• Urn of Saint Viktor - Change the Movement speed bonus to super speed. Add in a boon pulse for Aegis every 25 seconds on the urn that affects allies only.
• Drop Urn of Saint Viktor - Give the Urn the ability to inflict breakbar damage, say around 50 points given it can be spammed faster than Reaver's Rage. Increase the thresholds of the bonuses to 90% 70% and 50% respectively.

Herald

• Forceful Persistence - This should also increase condition damage.

Renegade

• Kalla should be usable under water. Have all the wells spawn on the revenant, with the Charr overlaying the Revenant. Essentially what is done with necromancer wells.

Ventari

• Ventari should be usable under water. Have the tablet center on the revenant, like wells for necros, and it moves with the necro much like wells for Scrappers.

 

I still think it is silly that a support build doesn't meet the criteria for support that the community, and essentially ANet, has set forth. So my suggestions for vindicator are supplying answers to that. I am also a bit baffled why when leveling there seems such a strong emphasis on our condition damage that our elite specs focus so heavily on power, except for Kalla who has her own problems. And compound that fact for support based builds, half of our kit is unusable in water, unless you're a renegade then the entirety of your kit is unusable under water. I think these are things that need to be addressed for sure.

Jup, I agree with all !

[Angesombre.4630]

For the renegat, stop telling us "no valid path to target" which makes it impossible to use renegat skills in different places, sometimes just for a small offset that is not even perceptible to the player, which is not the case for the necro or mesmer wells that can also be used on a vertical surface.

The problem with water dodging I already put in a post more than 8 months ago but still nothing.

If the hammer could be corrected on skill 2 too, because it's been a long time since it's been top notch, same thing for the shield.
But I'm not sure we can have a revisit like the rifle engineer.

As for altering traits, I'd be delighted if he did it, but he'd find something to break instead because it'd be too strong. Knowing that there are still a few things they haven't solved with the change a long time ago of the demon following the change of the resolution which I had completely broken at the time.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Flowki.7194]

Ren is fun and good dmg, but it has to be the most useless ranged spec in the game? ranger has more mobility despite having far higher range while berage is a much safer area denial, superspeed, access to more stuns/immobs, stealth and a pet. It doesnt add up.

 

The ren ultimate might be better to give some meanignful mobility (superspeed or something) to be able to escape melee range, as so many specs can stick to you like glue, yet specs like chrono/SB can simply outrange you if they so choose.

[arazoth.7290]

renegade is using the warband spirits who aid you, which work in aoe, This grants area denial. This area denial isn't working quite well because kalla stance isn't working properly. People sticking on you shouldn't be a problem if the area denial worked well enough, which also aids yourself and allies.

That's why less mobility is required to make it work

Edited September 30, 2023 by arazoth.7290

[Flowki.7194]

7 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

renegade is using the warband spirits who aid you, which work in aoe, This grants area denial. This area denial isn't working quite well because kalla stance isn't working properly. People sticking on you shouldn't be a problem if the area denial worked well enough, which also aids yourself and allies.

That's why less mobility is required to make it work

Yeah I understand that and they are good changes, but at the same time, relying only on area denial as defense may make ren fall into the same ''trap'' as DH.

[arazoth.7290]

10 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yeah I understand that and they are good changes, but at the same time, relying only on area denial as defense may make ren fall into the same ''trap'' as DH.

except that you can put it from ranged, dh traps are below the guard, for pve it doesn't matters that much I think since the area is big enough. It plays different then most revenant yes and I think that is okay, since an elite spec can go little differently.

The part of its effectiveness needs to be looked into

[soul.9651]

Shield and hammer rework...no numbers will fix them at least for pve, just flat out rework... or both weapons will stay dead or at best be used at 1 or 2 encouters in whole game

Edited October 1, 2023 by soul.9651

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

I agree that shield and hammer need a rework I just have no idea what to. I know two of my suggestions for shield (I have no idea what to do with hammer other than make it a rush down and heavy control weapon) will likely get met with the people don't like things different or try to say it would overlap with something that does something similar.

One suggestion I have for shield 4 is to give it a charge that pulses protection around the revenant during the charge and when they hit an enemy ends with them doing a shield bash for some damage, that sends out a pulse inflicting burning on enemies around and healing allies. Reasoning; the revenant is generally a front line fighter. Most of our kits are aimed at being in the middle of a fight, and surprisingly we have very little that lets us get into the action quickly (why greatsword is such a boon to heralds). We need gap closers.

Shield 5 my idea is have it be based on upkeep. I mean this seems to be a constant theme of herald so let's keep it up. In this case a shield is put around the revenent when active say 240, that reduces damage by say 2.5% for each point of upkeep the revenant is maintaining while this power is active, the revenant is still blocking of course. The duration stays at 3 seconds. However, add a second function to this allowing the revenant to break the barrier earlier that sends out both a healing wave and applies regeneration. The strength of the healing wave and duration of the regeneration based on how long the the block was maintained, if the full duration was done then the break occurs automatically giving full heal and longer regeneration burst. Some tweaking but general idea.

[arazoth.7290]

7 hours ago, soul.9651 said:

Shield and hammer rework...no numbers will fix them at least for pve, just flat out rework... or both weapons will stay dead or at best be used at 1 or 2 encouters in whole game

it needs something aside only damage because it would just compete then with the weapon which produces the most damage anyway

[arazoth.7290]

6 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I agree that shield and hammer need a rework I just have no idea what to. I know two of my suggestions for shield (I have no idea what to do with hammer other than make it a rush down and heavy control weapon) will likely get met with the people don't like things different or try to say it would overlap with something that does something similar.

One suggestion I have for shield 4 is to give it a charge that pulses protection around the revenant during the charge and when they hit an enemy ends with them doing a shield bash for some damage, that sends out a pulse inflicting burning on enemies around and healing allies. Reasoning; the revenant is generally a front line fighter. Most of our kits are aimed at being in the middle of a fight, and surprisingly we have very little that lets us get into the action quickly (why greatsword is such a boon to heralds). We need gap closers.

Shield 5 my idea is have it be based on upkeep. I mean this seems to be a constant theme of herald so let's keep it up. In this case a shield is put around the revenent when active say 240, that reduces damage by say 2.5% for each point of upkeep the revenant is maintaining while this power is active, the revenant is still blocking of course. The duration stays at 3 seconds. However, add a second function to this allowing the revenant to break the barrier earlier that sends out both a healing wave and applies regeneration. The strength of the healing wave and duration of the regeneration based on how long the the block was maintained, if the full duration was done then the break occurs automatically giving full heal and longer regeneration burst. Some tweaking but general idea.

For hammer they could go with a theme for some more reliant cc, reducing damage taken by enemies and giving allies reduced damage. Reflecting a portion of the same amount of damage reduced/done by enemies to them back, when certain skills are used for 5 sec amount of time for example.

The shield 4 effect you suggested looks interesting and maybe a small knockback, but shield 5 no. Herald already has more then enough regen boon for yourself and allies, pulsing outgoing well timed aegis to allies looks more beneficial in general

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

28 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

For hammer they could go with a theme for some more reliant cc, reducing damage taken by enemies and giving allies reduced damage. Reflecting a portion of the same amount of damage reduced/done by enemies to them back, when certain skills are used for 5 sec amount of time for example.

The shield 4 effect you suggested looks interesting and maybe a small knockback, but shield 5 no. Herald already has more then enough regen boon for yourself and allies, pulsing outgoing well timed aegis to allies looks more beneficial in general

The Aegis idea is interesting though since they will tie the shield to glint people would probably state it's OP because of the ability to break Facet of Light which could be seen as problematic. I think a break condition for shield 5 is needed, but maybe instead while the herald is being struck while blocking they send out a healing pulse in 240 as well. It gives that feeling and intent that the herald was meant to be a frontline fighter protecting the team vibe that the shield never fulfilled. And maybe the break condition being able to apply aegis forcing choice between slight protection and a healing pulse surge or breaking earlier and giving a temporary block. The shield 5 skill already has a 25 second CD on it (which makes you wonder then why it has a 20 energy cost) so something like that would give it a bit more justification for the long CD and energy cost ratio since these were suppose to be part of the trade offs.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[arazoth.7290]

14 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

The Aegis idea is interesting though since they will tie the shield to glint people would probably state it's OP because of the ability to break Facet of Light which could be seen as problematic. I think a break condition for shield 5 is needed, but maybe instead while the herald is being struck while blocking they send out a healing pulse in 240 as well. It gives that feeling and intent that the herald was meant to be a frontline fighter protecting the team vibe that the shield never fulfilled. And maybe the break condition being able to apply aegis forcing choice between slight protection and a healing pulse surge or brekaing earlier and giving a temporary block. The shield 5 skill already has a 25 second CD on it (which makes you wonder then why it has a 20 energy cost) so something like that would give it a bit more justification for the long CD and energy cost ratio since these were suppose to be part of the trade offs.

sorry I don't understand what you mean with break condition and the ability to break facet of light?

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

sorry I don't understand what you mean with break condition and the ability to break facet of light?

I call it breaking others call it consuming, and others still just call it burning. When you break/consume/burn facet of light it basically does an aegis that prevents damage but also heals those affected by it for the amount of damage they would have received. I am sure a balance concern would be a herald being able to stack an aegis on top of a consumed facet of light or even staggering that way since both facet and shield would have similar CDs. Often seems to be the complaint about revenant despite what other classes can do. And by breaking the shield 5 I mean you end the block early and create aegis for all those around

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/30/2023 at 4:53 AM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

 

Herald

• Forceful Persistence - This should also increase condition damage.

I'd rather see Draconic Echo made into something that better complements a condition build - let there be one herald variant which is more oriented to consuming facets rather than holding onto them. Maybe it could give Elemental Blast back the burning it lost in the patch, and the other facet consumes could all inflict an appropriate condition, kind of like a herald equivalent of the condi druid grandmaster.

[arazoth.7290]

10 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I call it breaking others call it consuming, and others still just call it burning. When you break/consume/burn facet of light it basically does an aegis that prevents damage but also heals those affected by it for the amount of damage they would have received. I am sure a balance concern would be a herald being able to stack an aegis on top of a consumed facet of light or even staggering that way since both facet and shield would have similar CDs. Often seems to be the complaint about revenant despite what other classes can do. And by breaking the shield 5 I mean you end the block early and create aegis for all those around

ohhh I see your problem you thought about. I meant when you press shield 5, you still self heal and block, but you also pulse outgoing aegis. This outgoing aegis isn't applied to yourself, I am not interested in making it more tanky, it is only beneficial for allies that aegis 😉

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

23 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd rather see Draconic Echo made into something that better complements a condition build - let there be one herald variant which is more oriented to consuming facets rather than holding onto them. Maybe it could give Elemental Blast back the burning it lost in the patch, and the other facet consumes could all inflict an appropriate condition, kind of like a herald equivalent of the condi druid grandmaster.

Facet of Elements already does this in Draconic Echo. Forceful Persistence is suppose to be the ultimate that let's the herald be DPS, which I do think needs some slight number tweaking in that regard. Though Draconic Echo, as it stands now, is not really conducive to the game play and style that ANet wants the herald to be in anymore (which DE seems to be more about consuming the facets than maintaining the upkeep). It's basically competing now with Forceful Persistence and well let's be blunt no one wants a pure DPS herald since ANet seems content to throw them down at the moment in the damage garbage chute. Still one of the best QDPS out there but just go vindi or condi rene if you want to be pure DPS.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

7 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

ohhh I see your problem you thought about. I meant when you press shield 5, you still self heal and block, but you also pulse outgoing aegis. This outgoing aegis isn't applied to yourself, I am not interested in making it more tanky, it is only beneficial for allies that aegis 😉

I am thinking more of a middle ground the choice that herald is known for choose to be a protective wall and pulse a heal when blocking a hit, or end the block earlier and apply aegis to the team. That's my idea. Herald design is all about that choice in the end, where you choose to laze about with a facet on or consume it and get quick benefits.

[draxynnic.3719]

12 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Facet of Elements already does this in Draconic Echo. Forceful Persistence is suppose to be the ultimate that let's the herald be DPS, which I do think needs some slight number tweaking in that regard. Though Draconic Echo, as it stands now, is not really conducive to the game play and style that ANet wants the herald to be in anymore which seems to be more about consuming the facets than maintaining the upkeep. It's basically competing now with Forceful Persistence and well let's be blunt no one wants a pure DPS herald since ANet seems content to throw them down at the moment in the damage garbage chute. Still one of the best QDPS out there but just go vindi or condi rene if you want to be pure DPS.

That's the thing - I think there is space for both playstyles to exist. Echo, though, currently has little room anywhere in PvE to exist - it doesn't compete in group content and for open world content, taking the quickness trait is objectively the best choice. Attaching extra condition damage to Elemental Blast is also one of the things that seems logical at first glance but becomes problematic when you look deeper, since it creates tension between using Elemental Blast for the conditions, or only using it just before switching to Mallyx.

Making Draconic Echo into a condition trait would create a distinct playstyle for cdps herald, would allow them to add conditions to make it competitive that way rather than a simple multiplier, and fits the theme by having the consumes leave a lingering effect on enemies as well as allies.

Edited October 1, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

20 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That's the thing - I think there is space for both playstyles to exist. Echo, though, currently has little room anywhere in PvE to exist - it doesn't compete in group content and for open world content, taking the quickness trait is objectively the best choice. Attaching extra condition damage to Elemental Blast is also one of the things that seems logical at first glance but becomes problematic when you look deeper, since it creates tension between using Elemental Blast for the conditions, or only using it just before switching to Mallyx.

Making Draconic Echo into a condition trait would create a distinct playstyle for cdps herald, would allow them to add conditions to make it competitive that way rather than a simple multiplier, and fits the theme by having the consumes leave a lingering effect on enemies as well as allies.

That would mean a complete change to the ultimate then because as it stands now, DE does both strike and condi boosting. But the thing is, it also does everything else to, which is why I can see it being lower. It boosts healing, it boosts protection etc. Forceful Persistence is just raw power and damage, it does not boost healing or anything or bring anything else to the table. Honestly the binary approach Anet takes with these balance changes is myopic at times. I just have no idea how to make DE better without turning it into a power house because of those other boosts it gives.

Over all I think DE is "intended" to be a WvW/PvP ultimate. I doubt it comes close to scratching that and personally think specs should not be game mode specific but balancing that would be problematic.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[arazoth.7290]

5 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I am thinking more of a middle ground the choice that herald is known for choose to be a protective wall and pulse a heal when blocking a hit, or end the block earlier and apply aegis to the team. That's my idea. Herald design is all about that choice in the end, where you choose to laze about with a facet on or consume it and get quick benefits.

well for pve that off trait is neglectent. For I think the off trait, not being able to move and countered by unblockables because the obvious animation of it in 240 radius. Same for WvW I think. I think yours in practice, it would make it more complicated unnecessary. Also about the choice, there is already a choice from my perspective. =>Using outgoing aegis to protect allies and sacrificing your own block when needed maybe more if people focus you. Yes you still are blocking and healing, but what if you're full health and don't really need it yourself but your allies do. So in that way you already make a choice to not use it selfish but more selfless. Enemies will also know now that you have 1 important defensive less

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

5 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

well for pve that off trait is neglectent. For I think the off trait, not being able to move and countered by unblockables because the obvious animation of it in 240 radius. Same for WvW I think. I think yours in practice, it would make it more complicated unnecessary. Also about the choice, there is already a choice from my perspective. =>Using outgoing aegis to protect allies and sacrificing your own block when needed maybe more if people focus you. Yes you still are blocking and healing, but what if you're full health and don't really need it yourself but your allies do. So in that way you already make a choice to not use it selfish but more selfless. Enemies will also know now that you have 1 important defensive less

Well depends, in some one on one encounters with slow hitting enemies yea that heal wouldn't do much, probably almost non-existent but enemies that do multiple hits in a swing or attack (I mean one of the reasons that imperial guard is an underappreciated power because of how much damage  it can store up on certain boss fights) this suddenly becomes a powerful heal. Same in WvW the heal pulse because of constant attacks would probably be too strong in that regard so might need some leverage or things to adjust it. I just don't see them giving us more than one aegis pulse if that in the duration of the block.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[arazoth.7290]

11 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Well depends, in some one on one encounters with slow hitting enemies yea that heal wouldn't do much, probably almost non-existent but enemies that do multiple hits in a swing or attack (I mean one of the reasons that imperial guard is an underappreciated power because of how much damage  it can store up on certain boss fights) this suddenly becomes a powerful heal. Same in WvW the heal pulse because of constant attacks would probably be too strong in that regard so might need some leverage or things to adjust it. I just don't see them giving us more than one aegis pulse if that in the duration of the block.

or atleast on initial pulse and ending one 🥲

[Incurve Giidis.7829]

how the kitten does it still overcap to 30s quickness with 0 boon duration? hello?

why are other boon supports struggling ??

Edited October 2, 2023 by Incurve Giidis.7829