Staff changes I hope to see.

[Akihito.4361]

Been playing Mesmer since GW1, and been playing Staff since beta. Like, ONLY staff. Of course I've dabbled in everything, but staff is the only weapon I ever fell in love with. So even if I switch to something else to break up the monotony, I'm always right back to it an hour later.  Even though it has always felt a bit lacking and counter-intuitive. Here are a few things I would like to see changed to make the weapon feel more active and functional.

1. Phase Retreat - there are a few ways to fix this, but the problem is that it forces you away from the fight when most of the kit forces you into melee (chaos armor, winds of chaos bounce mechanic). It's also not always ideal to move away just to generate a clone. There are 2 options here, but they both involve making the skill give you Blur (which, for some unfathomable reason, ONLY exists on Sword 2) and creates a clone. The second option is to also make it a combo action that turns into Phase Retreat for a few seconds on activate/successful evade.

2. Chaos Storm - Chaos Storm has always been an odd duck, mostly due to its randomization of effects. First off, I propose we move this to skill 3. Doing so addresses a few things, but primarily it gives us a more frequent aoe option where we lack them (on MOST weapons). This will also allow more frequent casting, which leads us into the effects. The conditions applied have always felt out of place. Yes, the randomness is part of the "chaos," but the effects are so out left field for what the weapon is supposed to be: a condition weapon. I would like to see Chaos Storm have more pulses over it's duration, and the conditions changed to Confusion, Torment, and Blind (or possibly Burning). Obviously we would give these procs a relatively short duration, but it would allow the weapon to do its job more reliably and would FEEL BETTER to cast. Having Blind in the rotation would still emphasize the cHaoS!@#! theme, but would also allow for fun build interactions with traits like Ineptitude.

3. Phantasmal Warlock - placing Chaos Storm as skill 3 means we are moving Phantasmal Warlock. It could go in either slot 4 or 5 depending on whether we adjust Chaos Armor or not. Regardless, the Phantasmal duo has always felt out of place and lacking in functionality. Again, there are multiple options here. Both involve changing its attack style and removing vulnerability (Vulnerability is so common that its really not needed here. Especially since with a 25 stack cap, it never feels good to use this skill unless you're playing a shatter build, but even then it doesnt feel right). 1. The Warlocks could cast Winds of Chaos, potentially with additional bounces. 2. They could cast Chaos Vortex instead. Or 3. they cast Chaos Armor. 

4. Chaos Armor - I think Chaos Armor is mostly fine. It sticks to the thematic of mesmer/the staff and has useful procs. The problem comes down to staff being a mixture of melee and ranged. If you're in the thick of it, it is great. If you're ranged, then its completely useless. I'm honestly not sure what to do here. Making it an targeted aoe seems like too much, and making it castable on allies doesnt seem quiet right either. But, if we change Phase Retreat to NOT force you out of melee, then it would be just fine.

There you have it. Really hoping the shortcomings of staff are obvious to the balance team and they have already implemented some changes for the upcoming patch. Staff is such a unique weapon, I hate to see it suffer from these problems when it could be designed soooo much better.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

The staff is my primary weapon and I see no reason to change anything right now. For starters, DON'T YOU TOUCH PHASE RETREAT! I love that ability and it saves my bacon all the time. As for Chaos Storm.....I would LOVE to be able to cast Chaos Storm more often. It's fantastic. As for giving it Confusion and Torment....we already have that with Winds of Chaos, so more of the same? not really needed. And for myself, with three clones, I can keep a dozen stacks of both on a single target easy. So no, don't change that. Now adding Blind into the Chaos Storm, I'm actually on board for that. You're right, it's thematic, it's both offensive AND defensive. It's good. Phantasmal Warlock....that's one I don't know what to do with. Are they okay now? Yeah, they're fine. I agree with you on vulnerability BUT currently they are the only staff ability that gives Vulnerability. In a group, you're right, redundant. But solo, no, it is kinda needed there. So I'm not sure what to do with it. And Chaos Armor is fine. Lets leave it as is.

Here's the thing though, something I came to understand. you talk about how you would rather Phase Retreat be more of a Phase Charge. The staff is a melee weapon despite the fact that it "shoots" balls of magic. The fact is that the staff has a very unique way to play, and that is that it creates an arena . It forces people to play on your terms, not theirs. Stay with me a moment. Winds of Chaos inflicts Confusion and Torment on enemies, but it also inflicts Fury and Might on Allies. So if they're standing right in front of you they take two conditions AND grant you two boons. That's -2 for them, +2 for you, okay? Keep up, this is where it gets fun. So you have that going constantly and if you have clones doing the same you can have upwards of a dozen stacks of all four of those and then we get to kick in the rest. Chaos Armor while you're in melee gives you Protection, Regeneration, and Swiftness. That puts you up to a +5. It also inflicts more Confusion, Blindness, Weakness, and Cripple. So now they're at a -5 to your +5. And note that last one, Cripple, that's important. Next we drop Chaos Storm right on top of both of you. Now you have Aegis, Resolution, and more Swiftness putting you up to a +7 boons and they get Chilled, Poisoned, and more Weakness, as well as a daze for good measure to stop them cold. That puts them at a -8 to your +7 while you're fighting in this little circle. Under these conditions even elites have a hard time fighting you, so what about that phase retreat?

You're a mesmer. Fisticuffs is not your forte. And sure we all like to do it but sometimes you need an out. That's where Phase Retreat comes in. It's a panic button and the best one in the game. First off, you can use it WHENEVER. Stunned, Dazed, Immobilized, you can always teleport, and it's not a utility so you can still Blink if you want to. Secondly, it does make a clone. Not only that but it breaks target meaning you can continuously disengage from combat and re-engage as you wish. It has tremendous defensive and utility value that let you pick when and where you want to fight. You have the option to leave whenever you want, come back whenever you want, or just say no.

So if you want to hack and slash, take a sword. Take two, they work well together. But for everything else, there's Masterstaff.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Phase retreat is the bread and butter of staff, why would you want to change it?

Chaos armor is kind of lackluster and warlock turned from a damage monster into shatter fodder, those two are the only things that need some help.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

10 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

The only thing that needs to happen with staff is updating warlock.

So what would you do? I've been thinking a lot about it actually. At first I was thinking about the vulnerability it inflicts because I thought it didn't matter to conditions, but it turns out vulnerability increases both strike AND condition damage. So it synergizes with everything else. I wish it did more damage, but you know, I could say that about all my abilities, and it is the only staff ability that inflicts vulnerability, which every weapon kinda needs to do imo. So as much as I wrack my brain over it, I can't actually come up with a reason or a form for warlock to take that actually improves it. Everything seems like a lateral move at best, or maybe a step down. If you increase the strike damage but take away vulnerability, then you're going to drop the overall DPS of the staff. If you give it more conditions to spread then it's basically just another Winds of Chaos or Chaos Storm, and if you make it set people on fire since the staff is technically missing fire damage then you're treading on torch territory (Although since the staff is two-handed I guess that's okay. You can't staff AND torch at the same time. So ignore that point). And if you just boost everything overall...well, now you're just kinda throwing balance out the window. WHich I'm fine with at this point. Mesmer Master Race...er, Profession, amirite?

End of the day, I think it's actually fine. We can go back and forth over what we might like to see but warlock is probably right where it needs to be, which is probably why it hasn't been changed 11 years in when so many other weapons and abilities have.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

End of the day, I think it's actually fine. We can go back and forth over what we might like to see but warlock is probably right where it needs to be, which is probably why it hasn't been changed 11 years in when so many other weapons and abilities have.

It was changed, back when several phantasms were nerfed and when the whole phantasms turn to clones to make it more entertaining to pvers thus nerfing pvpers once again in the process patch arrived.

Warlock used to hit like truck, more damage the more conditions you had, it wasn't that uncommon to hit like 9k.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[shush.7641]

59 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Might also point out the fact succinct statements are not rude. 

I do not think the problem with some of the (obviously now removed) comments were the length or that the poster disliked the ideas provided in this thread. It was about just being negative in a not really contructive way, not explaining why they do not like the ideas. All in all you can criticize in a more constructive way and with a less passive aggressive  and arrogant tone, that will give your comment way more worth and hits the minimum of social competence and communication skill. Just saying it is a terrible idea and not explaining why you think that is just not how good socialized and educated ppl with brain talk to others when they disagree.  Your comment indeed was fine and i do not see anyone complaining about it.

59 minutes ago, Varis.5467 said:

Not every idea requires a wall of text.

You did not provide a bunch of ideas, you just needed to disagree and say that you think its mostly fine as it is. This is an opinion that does not need a lot of words.

But in fact, if you try to provide a full rework of a weapon and also want to explain why you think it should be reworked like this, you need more words. Disagreeing and simply claiming (without any backup, reasoning and for that unfounded) is always done with way lower effort and words. Even more important, to give at least a bit of energy and effort into dealing with the invested time and effort other ppl (like the op) put into a post in a respectful way. No matter how hard you might disagree.

[Pariax.9674]

I like the idea of Retreat being castable without forced movement for clone generation. Its a pain in pve especially. It shouldnt come at the price of pvp ofc. Imho, having to turn your back to use it forward is quite the pain, even with 180 keybind. Having it port you in the movement direction (back if you are standing still/ccd) would be nice QoL. Adding distortion would be amazing for synergies, but its a power budget question.

I agree Retreat is the most clunky part about the weapon, because as you point out you often rather want to stay close instead of getting out of your most effective range.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/1/2023 at 10:39 AM, Akihito.4361 said:

Blur (which, for some unfathomable reason, ONLY exists on Sword 2)

It used to be Distortion (as the description implies), but it was changed due to confusion that caused with the functioning of a trait that no longer exists. Personally, I'd like to see it going back to granting Distortion so it can synergise with Inspiring Distortion.

[Panda.1967]

A bit of a crazy idea… but what about merging Chaos Armor & Phantasmal Warlocks into one skill?

add Vulnerability to the conditions applied by Chaos armor and make Phantasmal Warlocks apply Chaos armor to nearby allies for their duration. This would actually work with the OPs suggestion of moving Chaos Storm to 3 since this merger of Chaos Armor and Warlocks would make more sense as Skill 5… and fill in Skill 4 with some sort of charge ability.

Personally I’d say move Phase Retreat to 4 and add a Charge to 2… my reasoning is that you arn’t going to use Phase retreat as often as you might use a charge skill, because a charge skill can still add to your rotation and damage even when you don’t need to close distance while phase retreat is a disengagement skill… you only use it when you need to break away from enemies… even if moving it to 4 increases its CD it should still be off CD by the time you need it again.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Panda.1967

[ShadowKatt.6740]

9 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

add Vulnerability to the conditions applied by Chaos armor and make Phantasmal Warlocks apply Chaos armor to nearby allies for their duration

Here's the biggest problem I see with that. I don't have a problem with adding buffs or auras or boons or whatever to nearby allies. However, unless that is the focus of that ability, it should not be a consideration for that ability. Let me explain.

Let's discuss the humble Warhorn. The severely neglected red-headed stepchild of all the weapons as far as I can tell. I know that elementalists get good use out of it but otherwise it's probably the least used weapon in the game (There's probably hard numbers on that, but I don't have them). Now if you wanted to determine on the warhorn whther or not an ability effects one target or many....well, it's a warhorn. It's really meant for everyone to hear, and so the abilities of the warhorn should ideally be balanced for that. If it buffs, maybe it buffs a litte less but it does it for everyone in earshot. Or likewise if it affects enemies.

The staff though, and Chaos Armor especially, these are single target. Yes, I know Winds of Chaos bounces, I don't care about that though. it's still a single target, not a shotgun. If you're carrying a staff, you're likely to be focused on a single target. You're not here as a team player so much as you're playing on the team, if you catch the meaning. So everything on the staff should be YOU focused. Either on you, or on your target. Winds of Chaos hits your target. Retreat moves YOU away from your target. Warlocks attack your target. Chaos armor protects YOU, and Chaos Storm goes whereever you want it. It's very selfish like that, and that's good. It should be. If you wanted something more team focused there are other builds more Inspiration.....inspired.

However, that isn't to say your idea is without merit. I think that trying to integrate Warlock and Armor is a bad idea, but sharing Chaos Armor isn't. But the way to do that would be far better served as a new trait than a new skill. Much like Elementalists can often share their auras by selecting certain traits, I think we could too. Just not like this. And I'll tell you why I personally think this is a bad idea: I'm a solo player. Sure, I'll link up with a group for an event or a bounty or something, but overall I fly solo. And so merging the two together will firstly take away one of my attack skills and secondly gives me absolutely zero benefit in the field. It splits the staff into this weapon that's not sure if it's supposed to be a solo weapon now or a team weapon. Is it a buffing tool or a condi stick. It's far better to try and keep the staff focused on doing one thing, which right now is just point it at things and melt them with conditions, and it's doing that pretty well as is.

[Panda.1967]

16 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Here's the biggest problem I see with that. I don't have a problem with adding buffs or auras or boons or whatever to nearby allies. However, unless that is the focus of that ability, it should not be a consideration for that ability. Let me explain.

Let's discuss the humble Warhorn. The severely neglected red-headed stepchild of all the weapons as far as I can tell. I know that elementalists get good use out of it but otherwise it's probably the least used weapon in the game (There's probably hard numbers on that, but I don't have them). Now if you wanted to determine on the warhorn whther or not an ability effects one target or many....well, it's a warhorn. It's really meant for everyone to hear, and so the abilities of the warhorn should ideally be balanced for that. If it buffs, maybe it buffs a litte less but it does it for everyone in earshot. Or likewise if it affects enemies.

The staff though, and Chaos Armor especially, these are single target. Yes, I know Winds of Chaos bounces, I don't care about that though. it's still a single target, not a shotgun. If you're carrying a staff, you're likely to be focused on a single target. You're not here as a team player so much as you're playing on the team, if you catch the meaning. So everything on the staff should be YOU focused. Either on you, or on your target. Winds of Chaos hits your target. Retreat moves YOU away from your target. Warlocks attack your target. Chaos armor protects YOU, and Chaos Storm goes whereever you want it. It's very selfish like that, and that's good. It should be. If you wanted something more team focused there are other builds more Inspiration.....inspired.

However, that isn't to say your idea is without merit. I think that trying to integrate Warlock and Armor is a bad idea, but sharing Chaos Armor isn't. But the way to do that would be far better served as a new trait than a new skill. Much like Elementalists can often share their auras by selecting certain traits, I think we could too. Just not like this. And I'll tell you why I personally think this is a bad idea: I'm a solo player. Sure, I'll link up with a group for an event or a bounty or something, but overall I fly solo. And so merging the two together will firstly take away one of my attack skills and secondly gives me absolutely zero benefit in the field. It splits the staff into this weapon that's not sure if it's supposed to be a solo weapon now or a team weapon. Is it a buffing tool or a condi stick. It's far better to try and keep the staff focused on doing one thing, which right now is just point it at things and melt them with conditions, and it's doing that pretty well as is.

Then what about just adding a Charge to Phantasma Warlock then? You teleport towards target enemy leaving two phantasmal warlocks in your place?

also the reason I suggest merging Chaos Armor is because Chaos Armor has always struck me as a problematic skill… it simply applies an aura that you can get by using any leap finisher in a chaos combo field… Elementalist has a few similar skills with its aura skills but all of them both do something else with the initial cast, and have a combo skill to follow it up… meanwhile we just have Chaos Armor we don’t get an extended duration to it, we don’t get a special bonus from using the skill version, we don’t get a combo skill… it has always felt like a waste of a skill to me… I’m not saying Chaos Armor is bad… its an amazing aura… it’s just not good on its own as a full skill given the fact that we can easily get it other ways.

another thing to note… my suggestion wouldn’t necessarily cost you a damage skill… you’d be gaining a whole new skill that could take its place for starters… and the warlocks could still attack enemies and just passively pulse chaos armor to allies… or if giving it to allies is too strong to do passively, it could just provide chaos armor to your clones… which BTW that would be something I’d see as making the chaos armor skill worth while, if using the skill applied the aura to you and your clones.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Panda.1967

[ShadowKatt.6740]

49 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

or if giving it to allies is too strong to do passively, it could just provide chaos armor to your clones… which BTW that would be something I’d see as making the chaos armor skill worth while, if using the skill applied the aura to you and your clones.

Now THIS is something I could get behind 150%. One of the biggest complaints I have with Chaos Armor, really the only complaint I have with Chaos Armor, is that when I have four clones out it's guessing game. Which one is the real mesmer! Is it that one? Or that one? Oh, you're a ranger with barrage, you don't need to guess. For everyone else it's a game of whack-a-mesmer....until I turn on Chaos Armor. Now you know EXACTLY which one I am. I just broacast it to you, which really breaks the whole illusion. This is only really a problem in WvW and PvP since the monsters can't make that kind of nuanced decision, but during those times when other players are involved...

[Panda.1967]

8 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Now THIS is something I could get behind 150%. One of the biggest complaints I have with Chaos Armor, really the only complaint I have with Chaos Armor, is that when I have four clones out it's guessing game. Which one is the real mesmer! Is it that one? Or that one? Oh, you're a ranger with barrage, you don't need to guess. For everyone else it's a game of whack-a-mesmer....until I turn on Chaos Armor. Now you know EXACTLY which one I am. I just broacast it to you, which really breaks the whole illusion. This is only really a problem in WvW and PvP since the monsters can't make that kind of nuanced decision, but during those times when other players are involved...

It’s still useful in PvE as well since your clones tend to stay in close range to enemies more, which lets you keep conditions up from chaos armor better, especially when you find yourself needing to use phase retreat… if your clones had chaos armor or you had a way to give it to them, then you can make more tactical use of phase retreat without fear of losing some conditions while you recover.

it also gives a wider area spread for those chaos armor conditions too, and it can help keep your clones alive longer too. Not that keeping them alive matters much when they just die with the target anyways… still a stupid mechanic…

Edited October 10, 2023 by Panda.1967

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Panda.1967 said:

It’s still useful in PvE as well since your clones tend to stay in close range to enemies more, which lets you keep conditions up from chaos armor better, especially when you find yourself needing to use phase retreat… if your clones had chaos armor or you had a way to give it to them, then you can make more tactical use of phase retreat without fear of losing some conditions while you recover.

it also gives a wider area spread for those chaos armor conditions too, and it can help keep your clones alive longer too. Not that keeping them alive matters much when they just die with the target anyways… still a stupid mechanic…

If only there was a way to fix that...

[Panda.1967]

Just now, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

If only there was a way to fix that...

I know… I’ve been advocating for making clones persist atleast until you exist combat, since Alpha… it has always bugged me that they shatter when your current target dies… i’d love that relic if it were to ever exist… but honestly it should just be a baseline change… even if it was something only done for Mirage (since Mirage is actually supposed to have less emphasis on shattering)

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

I know… I’ve been advocating for making clones persist atleast until you exist combat, since Alpha… it has always bugged me that they shatter when your current target dies… i’d love that relic if it were to ever exist… but honestly it should just be a baseline change… even if it was something only done for Mirage (since Mirage is actually supposed to have less emphasis on shattering)

And you know what? I NEVER adovcated for it, til now.

See I didn't care before. It's annoying but nothing purrfect. It's just how the class works. You have to build up your clones before you can shatter them, or not shatter them. It's kinda like Warriors. I'm sure warriors would LOVE if their burst skill was just available to them, but they have to build up to it first. HOWEVER, then we got the Virtuoso and said that the rules have changed. Now they don't have to be built up. You can have your crown of knives with you at all time and bladesong all day long. So now that the rules have changed..all I'm saying is lets go back and make things even. Call it a gift from Cathna.

[Panda.1967]

6 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And you know what? I NEVER adovcated for it, til now.

See I didn't care before. It's annoying but nothing purrfect. It's just how the class works. You have to build up your clones before you can shatter them, or not shatter them. It's kinda like Warriors. I'm sure warriors would LOVE if their burst skill was just available to them, but they have to build up to it first. HOWEVER, then we got the Virtuoso and said that the rules have changed. Now they don't have to be built up. You can have your crown of knives with you at all time and bladesong all day long. So now that the rules have changed..all I'm saying is lets go back and make things even. Call it a gift from Cathna.

Warriors still had a better spot than Mesmers with their bursts though… they don't lose all of their adrenaline the instant their target dies… and they can even build up adrenaline outside of combat… we can’t… our target dies, our clones are gone… out of combat clone skills generate no clones… Virtuoso is amazing in that it changes the rules… and when it was announced I made a bigger push for giving Mesmers persistent clones… just wish ANet cared enough to listen…

[Stavros.8249]

I hope staff mirage get a little damage boost, cause now is under performing. Maybe clone condition duration should be the same as player for chaos vortex and wind of chaos?

[Mevelios.4809]

IMO, the staff needs only a little revisioning to make it more coherent. Phase retreat is fine as-is for PvP/WvW, however for PvE I'd wish there were a competitive split so its retreat distance was halved to limit the penalty (on the offensive side) of moving away, while retaining the defensive aspect of stepping back from the threat. There are also situations in which moving too far away make you land into a dangerous area in PvE. Anyway, the fact it's a leap finisher on a short cooldown is great for the sake of easily generating chaos armor; just removing the retreat part would take that option away, and turn it into some bland clone generator.

My main gripe goes to both the third & fourth skills. First, the warlocks: the staff is either handy at buffing, either dealing condition damages. What of the warlocks? Their combined 12 stacks of vulnerability are fine and all, but looking at their attack, their damages are... power-based. Now that's incoherent on a condition-based weapon, the least capable of inflicting power-based damages in our arsenal (0.3 modifier against 0.5 scepter & 0.55 axe, both roughly attack twice faster - and that's without talking about the other weapon skills, chain finishers or mirage's ambushes).

The warlocks definitely could inflict conditions instead that are much less accessible, such as burning (only competing with the torch IF the second weapon set includes it) or bleeding (depending on the use of the axe, pistol or illusions' criticals under the dueling spec). There's poison too, but already available through chaos storm and easy to renew going down the chaos spec (1-3-1) which you can hardly ignore if relying on the staff primarily. With torment & confusion already largely available through the staff's orbs, it would be only wrong IMO to assign such conditions to the warlocks.

Now for the fourth skill, chaos armor: where do I even begin? Without even considering mirage's jaunt, phase retreat already offers the opportunity to generate it within our several ethereal fields, chaos storm being the first of them here. The initial cast inflicts three stacks of confusion, possibly five under the dueling spec (which competes directly with a better clone generation especially for mirages) which is honestly weak, when your illusions can inflict nearly as many damages on their own bouncing orbs. Now, don't misunderstand - the initial cast is worthwhile in PvP & WvW, and the effect can fully be made use of as you get attacked.

In PvE however, it's the complete other way around: the passive, defensive effect of the chaos armor is rarely usable, since walking into an attack usually means either risking going down, either performing a dodge during which only the mirage can act. Other mesmers are stuck in its animation... for the sake of a "chance" on an internal 1sec cooldown to inflict a single stack of confusion, and to benefit from defensive boons.

I honestly dislike the skill itself of chaos armor on the staff for PvE, but it's hard to deny it for the sake of PvP/WvW. It should have a competitive split as well so the cooldown justifies something, in PvE, beyond the few confusion stacks on cast (then again, it's only a small radius around the caster, so stepping away with a 1200 distance phase retreat is counterproductive). It could be a custom effect triggering on subsequent attacks like the revenants' enchanted daggers effect, obviously inflicting conditions rather than power-based damages, or something like the armor shattering on the end of the effect, reiterating the effects of the initial cast (or once more, dabbling in less common mesmer conditions such as burning, poison or bleeding). The latter suggestion though again reiterates the conflicting use of the long-range phase retreat against effects occuring in the close vicinity of the mesmer.

The other possibility is completely replacing the skill, but it's just hard to tell where to take it. Could be an opportunity to innovate though! Nothing comes to mind immediately besides the principle of a ranged skill, and knowing that it could be a poor hit for the PvP/WvW side. Still, it feels like a waste to have a redundant skill, dedicated to an effect we can easily trigger with our arsenal!

On 10/10/2023 at 8:12 PM, Panda.1967 said:

[…] or if giving [chaos armor] to allies is too strong to do passively, it could just provide chaos armor to your clones… which BTW that would be something I’d see as making the chaos armor skill worth while, if using the skill applied the aura to you and your clones.

That's something I disagree on, since it's not far from the topic of the clone death traits: it pertains to a passive form of gameplay, which could (meaning there's an uncertainty) only work in PvP/WvW content, unless your opponent is lucky and finds you more often than not (or you just fail at behaving like an immobile bot spamming the auto-attack). It largely disregards one type of content, PvE. Now, another approach could be to combine our respective suggestions, spreading chaos armor to clones, an armor which shatters either by itself once it runs out of time, either by using a shatter skill on the clones... Now that's something easier to associate for all types of contents, while the competitive splits could moderate the effects to avoid having too powerful an impact in this or that game mode. Why not?

[draxynnic.3719]

I wouldn't assume that chaos armour spreading to clones would do nothing in PvE, since PvE enemies are often fooled by clones and thus can accumulate conditions by hitting a Chaos Armoured clone.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I wouldn't assume that chaos armour spreading to clones would do nothing in PvE, since PvE enemies are often fooled by clones and thus can accumulate conditions by hitting a Chaos Armoured clone.

You wouldn't even have to rely on AI stupidity. Three clones + yourself + Sword or Axe + Chaos Shield on all would stack huge numbers of conditions.

[Mevelios.4809]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I wouldn't assume that chaos armour spreading to clones would do nothing in PvE, since PvE enemies are often fooled by clones and thus can accumulate conditions by hitting a Chaos Armoured clone.

Clones remain terribly fragile, though. So much that the defensive part of the chaos armor (its boons) wouldn't do much to preserve them, whereas the offensive part is still under an internal 1sec cooldown for "a chance" (I'll presume it's as simple as 33% each condition) to apply a single confusion stack. That's why such a spread would feel underperforming IMO for a 20sec CD skill working as a passive defense, but it's fine - we don't have to absolutely agree on everything 😋

Unless the conditions are on a set rotation? Didn't we have something working this way, with a random attribution of conditions in a definite rotation (had it been the chaos armor, first hit would inflict weakness, second confusion, third cripple)?

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Clones remain terribly fragile, though. So much that the defensive part of the chaos armor (its boons) wouldn't do much to preserve them, whereas the offensive part is still under an internal 1sec cooldown for "a chance" (I'll presume it's as simple as 33% each condition) to apply a single confusion stack. That's why such a spread would feel underperforming IMO for a 20sec CD skill working as a passive defense, but it's fine - we don't have to absolutely agree on everything 😋

Unless the conditions are on a set rotation? Didn't we have something working this way, with a random attribution of conditions in a definite rotation (had it been the chaos armor, first hit would inflict weakness, second confusion, third cripple)?

The possibility of sending some conditions back as it dies is still doing more than doing nothing as it dies, no?

I would presume that the chances of the three conditions are equal. That said, depending on the precise circumstances, getting a bit of extra cripple or weakness on an enemy might be worthwhile. 

[Panda.1967]

21 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Clones remain terribly fragile, though. So much that the defensive part of the chaos armor (its boons) wouldn't do much to preserve them, whereas the offensive part is still under an internal 1sec cooldown for "a chance" (I'll presume it's as simple as 33% each condition) to apply a single confusion stack. That's why such a spread would feel underperforming IMO for a 20sec CD skill working as a passive defense, but it's fine - we don't have to absolutely agree on everything 😋

Unless the conditions are on a set rotation? Didn't we have something working this way, with a random attribution of conditions in a definite rotation (had it been the chaos armor, first hit would inflict weakness, second confusion, third cripple)?

I think you may be underestimating how survivable clones actually are in PvE… I made the suggestion from a PvE perspective, I don’t play PvP… clones can survive in PvE for a good 20-30 seconds while taking direct hits from elites. If they were to get Chaos Armor, they would 100% survive better while it is active and spread conditions quite effectively… also, currently Chaos Armor is reliant on your opponent attacking you, and not your clones. In its current form it is more effective in PvP than in PvE because if your opponent in PvP is fooled by a clone they will immediately know which one is the real you when you activate it and they may choose to attack you and suffer conditions… but in PvE, mobs don’t care… they will keep attacking the clone and you will most likely completely waste the cast of Chaos Armor. If Chaos Armor was to apply to clones too however, then it doesn’t matter if the mob attacks you or your clone, they will suffer conditions… and as draxynnic said already, it doesn’t matter if your clone dies with chaos armor up, if they got hit they applied conditions, and those are conditions you wouldn’t have gotten with how the skill currently works. Giving Chaos Armor to clones is also even more effective when mobs use cleaving attacks, which quite a few of them do. Currently they hit you and gain a condition… if your clones had it too they would gain a condition for each one hit to a maximum of 4 conditions from that cleave… this is very good for PvE… from what little I know of PvP, people tend to avoid using cleaves when doing so can be harmful to themselves.

Also… please explain how you think spreading chaos armor to clones promotes a passive playstyle? Taking advantage of a mob attacking your clone to stack some extra conditions on them is pretty active to me… your clones aren’t automatically gaining chaos armor every 20 seconds, you have to actively choose to give it to them by activating the skill. I can see your point on On Clone Death traits (though I don’t agree with you at all)… but on this… no… this is far from passive. If you somehow thought I was suggesting to passively give clones chaos armor, you may wish to reread my suggestion… I suggested combining Phantasmal Warlocks and Chaos Armor… there is nothing passive about it… the “passive” I mentioned would merely be a passive effect of the Warlocks while they attack enemies… they would attack enemies and allies (or clones) within a radius of them would gain chaos armor until they expire… the combination was suggested to try and resolve multiple issues with the staff at once…

Edited October 19, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Mevelios.4809]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The possibility of sending some conditions back as it dies is still doing more than doing nothing as it dies, no?

Hence my suggestion of relying rather on some sort of shattering effect, not to be confused with our innate shatter skills: once the armor runs out of time, or once the clone is manually shattered, or once the clone is taken down to 0 hp, the armor could "blow up" and ensure at least an extra stack of confusion, for the certainty of getting something out of it rather than the possibility.

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

clones can survive in PvE for a good 20-30 seconds while taking direct hits from elites. If they were to get Chaos Armor, they would 100% survive better while it is active and spread conditions quite effectively

I must've been not clear enough: for open world content, I am well aware some use could be made of it (though 20/30sec of survival against elites, this isn't my experience - but I prefer playing in melee and draw a crowd if I can help it, such a lengthy survival is more likely the case when playing ranged which is the topic here with the staff). What I'm thinking of is instanced group content, in which it wouldn't see a large use besides maybe occupying trash mobs around a few bosses, which we know how to take care of already: in this sort of content, if they get hit, they're unlikely to stand more than a single attack.

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

In its current form it is more effective in PvP than in PvE

More of a double-edged sword. The window is really small (and not everyone pays close attention to de/buffs) but if you're trying to blend in with the crowd of your clones, the only one capable currently of having a chaos armor is precisely the mesmer. One thing I'm not denying is that spreading it to clones would precisely solve that weak point - something @ShadowKatt.6740 mentioned earlier (about betraying the original in a game of "whack-a-mesmer" 😆).

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

if your clones had [chaos armor] too they would gain a condition for each one hit to a maximum of 4 conditions from that cleave

Wiki description of the skill: internal cooldown of a second. If all cleaves are performed in a short window, only the first attacker would suffer something.

Maybe there's a misunderstanding: I'm not saying it's wrong to spread it to clones. What I'm saying is, there are a lot of "ifs" for me to feel like the effect would really have an impact this way: IF they get hit, IF they survive more than one hit, IF hits land in more than a 1sec-window, IF the condition actually brings something useful (I'm keeping bosses in mind here, cripple & weakness only find some use IF the defiance bar is up, and they're usually caught in an animation while it is indeed up). That's a lot I wouldn't be confident about, even moreso as the staff already has means to allow the mesmer to generate chaos armor: the redundancy combined to so many "ifs" feels like a waste to me, but that's only a personal opinion! As I was saying, I have no suggestion in mind to replace it entirely anyway.

Going down the idea of spreading it to clones, I'd prefer seeing something that disregards "ifs" and "possibilities": the certainty that however the effect ends, at least one dice throw is made around the armored clone to inflict something (there's still an "if" in this case: "if" someone is close to be affected, since I'd keep in mind a 240 radius just like the current initial cast of the fourth staff skill). Nobody touched it, the armor ran out of time? Close bystanders are affected (for the buffing side of the staff, why not also affecting allies with a 2sec version of the possible armor's buffs to try to pull some protection out, which we otherwise largely lack?). Someone attacked and destroyed the clone? There, get an extra roll "if" you were close when the clone went down (more punishing to melee than to ranged players, which is the main issue I find when taking some distance to my reasoning so far). The clones get a shatter effect? There you go: extra condition rolls at their expanse, since they won't be casting again the staff autoattack!

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

please explain how you think spreading chaos armor to clones promotes a passive playstyle?

This is my opinion based on how it works: yes, the current cast is active, you pick the moment when you cast it. However to make it actually work, it relates (I didn't say it "promotes", but it "pertains") to a passive stance as you must be attacked for something to happen. Again with the "ifs", that's not dependant on you: only if you, or in this case your clones as well, get attacked. That's waiting for something to happen; actively opening a window of opportunity, but not proactively making sure you get something out of it - because the trigger is not dependant on you afterwards, during this short window. Again, I do not deny it could find some use on trash mobs in open world, but it wouldn't have much of an incidence against bosses.

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

I can see your point on On Clone Death traits (though I don’t agree with you at all)…

And that's fine - that's what debating is meant for, and how new ideas are born. How could we discuss the same game with different opinions otherwise? 😊

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

If you somehow thought I was suggesting to passively give clones chaos armor, you may wish to reread my suggestion… I suggested combining Phantasmal Warlocks and Chaos Armor

Most of my stance is based on how chaos armor works which, again, expects you to be hit and triggers at most once per second. I started getting confused indeed (aye, mesmahs in kitten hood) when the idea of phantasms casting armors to allies shifted to clones having it: only one should have the armor if it were up while the warlocks were, since as soon as they get replaced, you get two new clones... without armors. The links will lead you to the posts, but I'll be quoting the extracts below for readability. Anyway, at some point I started mixing in my own ideas to make it messier (I ended up assuming the armor skill would still be present as the fourth skill, forgetting neither of us had a suggestion to replace it) - apologies for that!

On 10/10/2023 at 7:34 PM, Panda.1967 said:

A bit of a crazy idea… but what about merging Chaos Armor & Phantasmal Warlocks into one skill?

add Vulnerability to the conditions applied by Chaos armor and make Phantasmal Warlocks apply Chaos armor to nearby allies for their duration. This would actually work with the OPs suggestion of moving Chaos Storm to 3 since this merger of Chaos Armor and Warlocks would make more sense as Skill 5… and fill in Skill 4 with some sort of charge ability.

On 10/10/2023 at 9:11 PM, Panda.1967 said:

It’s still useful in PvE as well since your clones tend to stay in close range to enemies more, which lets you keep conditions up from chaos armor better, especially when you find yourself needing to use phase retreat… if your clones had chaos armor or you had a way to give it to them, then you can make more tactical use of phase retreat without fear of losing some conditions while you recover.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by Mevelios.4809