mes needs a 5 target big spike melee weapon not another 900-1200 range weapon

[Mevelios.4809]

16 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The Mesmer also has Dagger/Sword as a full ranged pDPS option with low cooldowns.

Which, by the way, hits like a truck once you add the mirage's ambush (and options tied to its daze). Even moreso when going close and personal to make full use of bladecall (the second dagger skill), but the greatsword remains more reliable at range for safety.

42 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

the longest cooldown on a Greatsword DPS skill is 12 seconds on the phantasm. [...] The Sword cooldown is longer

Unless traiting for fencer's finesse, a likely pick.

42 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

[...] this weapon could go one of two ways: In the hands of a non-crit build, it's just a rifle. It does decent damage with a variety of forms and there you go. And in the hands of a crit build it becomes a condition weapon.

Nonono. For such a weapon profile, keep to the mantra: "MAINHAND GUN". Repeat three times. Breathe in, breathe out. The dueling class, right? Let's keep dreaming about it! 😆

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Edit: Oh my god, you actually did say that you hope the rifle is a melee weapon. See, this is why we can't be friends. If the RIFLE turns out to be a MELEE weapon I will spork someones lawn. Probably not the devs since I don't know who they are, but I've got a 1 in 325 million chance.

Pretty much. I can understand people wanting another melee weapon, but the odds of ArenaNet deciding that mesmer needs a melee weapon and picking rifle of all things while hammer and mace are still available seems unlikely. It's more likely that it will be healing-oriented (like warrior, heal mesmer is being held back by the lack of such a weapon), or ArenaNet just had a concept they liked despite mesmer already having plenty of ranged weapons.

Roadkizzle has a prejudice against hammer, though, since they think all hammers are bad and therefore have a strange idea that twisting rifle into a melee weapon will somehow be better than hammer could possibly be.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Nonono. For such a weapon profile, keep to the mantra: "MAINHAND GUN". Repeat three times. Breathe in, breathe out. The dueling class, right? Let's keep dreaming about it! 😆

But I don't use mantras...

No, I get it, I do. A main hand pistol would make SO MUCH MORE SENSE than a rifle. But I'm getting a four-man rifle squad here and if they take that away from me somehow I will -actually- cry.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

3 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Sure. But the longest cooldown on a Greatsword DPS skill is 12 seconds on the phantasm. With alacrity it's ready within the 10 seconds of a weapon swap. 

Mirror Blade can be used every 4-5 seconds depending on Alac. 

The Sword cooldown is longer and every other OH has 20 seconds plus for all of their cooldowns.

I don't think anyone was saying that Greatsword couldn't use weapon swaps to keep damage going out.

But there is no Mesmer build that can do more power damage without using the Greatsword.

the only pdps build where running gs has a notable increase is pvirt due to gs4 indiscriminately proccing phantasmal blades twice per cast. on other specs, the phantasm is relatively weak and mostly just brings more clone generation (which doesnt really amount to much dps wise).

when players cant be expected to reliably follow rotations, poor sustained dps skillsets is something that needs to be pointed out, particularly when claiming things like gs is the strongest pdps weapon on mes

if were gonna be real however, its actually dagger that is probably mesmers strongest pdps weapon that you generally cant take off without taking a substantial hit to dps. dagger skills #1 #2 and #3 all do substantially more dps than gs #1 #2 and #3 with similar cds, and gs phantasm without bountiful blades loses to offhand sword phantasm

3 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Are you saying that a rifle would be an adequate choice if you just have a high damage auto attack and every other skill just mediocre?

The Mesmer also has Dagger/Sword as a full ranged pDPS option with low cooldowns.

in context of competing with gs: yes. dagger is also more bursty than sustained and both weapons do not output full dps at max range (due to how both #2 skills work). so a high autodmg ranged pdps weapon would technically have its own niche

however like i said before, id rather they touch up the competition between gs, sword and dagger first. sword has basically fallen out of the picture and it doesnt make sense considering that it doesnt have the advantage of range

[Mevelios.4809]

13 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

dagger skills #1 #2 and #3 all do substantially more dps than gs #1 #2 and #3 with similar cds, and gs phantasm without bountiful blades loses to offhand sword phantasm

I'd have a slightly different analysis. For the phantasms, opting out of the GS trait to get empowered illusions puts the swordsman on top of both berserkers - it simply hits half harder than they do on their respective main attacks. Note that I'm picking apart all actions of both skills: the zerkers' spinning + GS throw on one end, the swordr strike + phantasm leap attack + phantasm frenzy on the other - this first comparison is double-spinning against frenzy. The frenzy damages compensate the GS throw, and then you have to factor in the mesmer's sword strike and the swordsman's leap, the latter hitting roughly the same as the GS throw (sadly it's largely unreliable, I've seen the swordsman too often summoned too close to the target for making use of this attack). However, there still is the whirl finisher nature of the berserker's attacks that can raise the numbers.

For the first three skills, while the numbers seem in favor of the dagger, there are still a few things to keep in mind. It's undeniable for the auto-attack: even at max range, the dagger's flurry makes the difference against the GS by ~20%, though the mirage's ambush can change things around if you're short on might stacks (then again, phantom razor hits hard too).

For mirror blade against bladecall, it's heavily dependant for the former on how it bounces, for the latter whether you make use of it at range or up close - with all bounces including from the GS trait coming back to the original target, mirror blade's roughly 40% more effective than bladecall, unless the latter is used in melee to put them on par.

Then if the target does not move, indeed the unstable bladestorm hits far harder than mind stab  ; 4 seconds for the bladestorm to make its full effect however, that's a lengthy period. Against a single, unmoving target though, the bladestorm is aberrationally stronger by no less than ~90% (sounds surreal, just - test it).

Still, in the end there's a big factor that @Curunen.8729 already mentioned: unlike the dagger, the GS does not rely exclusively on projectiles.

22 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I spent a long time looking at virtually every Power Mesmer build I could find on all the build sites. They ALL rely on the Greatsword in both PVE and PVP modes. Core, Chrono, and Virtuoso all use Greatsword but the Virtuoso is the most likely to swap it for a second dagger.

[...] Some builds do allow you to swap out to the Dagger or Sword but they always make it clear that you'll be losing damage.

Mesmer just does not have a higher DPS than Greatsword for Power.

I'd be curious to know what's making the difference according to them, since for what little I read they're just stating generalistic facts without crunching down numbers to convince me. "You'll lose damages", right; why? And which % range are we talking about? Most of those tests (since at the moment, the topic was primarily PvE) rely on an idle raid golem. My tests on such a golem make me think otherwise, so I must've missed something big; what I acknowledge about the GS is how safer (understand "more reliable") it is at dealing damages. Both weapons have their lot of "ifs", but the big caveat for the dagger is in its bladestorm - no initial hit, if the target just moves away immediately it won't do any harm. That, and the fact it's all about projectiles, unlike GS!

The "meta" label is not omnipotent, neither am I. It takes time to find ideas, time to put them into practice, time to refine them - and we're talking about a class that isn't known as one of the top power damage dealers. Hence, I'd be curious to know what I've been missing if these communities, vying for the "meta" label, have indeed put that dagger to the test (the offhand sword being obviously its partner) and still got better results out of the GS. Otherwise, maybe it's still in the phase of testing before acknowledging it? At PoF's release, I remember it took them a year to acknowledge the renegade healer (it was all about druids back then). Three weeks for me, so I reiterate - it simply takes time to find ideas and test things out, so maybe it's just a matter of time before it is updated; until then, you can run your own simulations. These communities are players as well, they understandably want to play too - which takes time, too!

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

however like i said before, id rather they touch up the competition between gs, sword and dagger first. sword has basically fallen out of the picture and it doesnt make sense considering that it doesnt have the advantage of range

The impression I've always had is that sword trades off range for more defence rather than for more damage. Which might be a point where it's worth considering a melee weapon that's designed for maximising power DPS.

Still don't think it's likely to be rifle while mace and hammer remain unused, though.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I'd have a slightly different analysis. For the phantasms, opting out of the GS trait to get empowered illusions puts the swordsman on top of both berserkers - it simply hits half harder than they do on their respective main attacks. Note that I'm picking apart all actions of both skills: the zerkers' spinning + GS throw on one end, the swordr strike + phantasm leap attack + phantasm frenzy on the other - this first comparison is double-spinning against frenzy. The frenzy damages compensate the GS throw, and then you have to factor in the mesmer's sword strike and the swordsman's leap, the latter hitting roughly the same as the GS throw (sadly it's largely unreliable, I've seen the swordsman too often summoned too close to the target for making use of this attack). However, there still is the whirl finisher nature of the berserker's attacks that can raise the numbers.

wasnt really part of my line of thinking, but taking empowered illusions also means that you have to consider that it buffs all other phantasms (and clones though insignificant) as well

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

For mirror blade against bladecall, it's heavily dependant for the former on how it bounces, for the latter whether you make use of it at range or up close - with all bounces including from the GS trait coming back to the original target, mirror blade's roughly 40% more effective than bladecall, unless the latter is used in melee to put them on par.

this argument doesnt really make much sense considering that you need some other entity (the clone created from the skill does not count, so its usually the mesmer) standing close to the target for the mirror blade to bounce. 4 out of 6 of bladecalls projectiles are expected to hit even at max range. both hit for the same total value, but a gs2 that doesnt bounce only hits for 33% of its dmg while bladecall can be expected to deal at least 66% of its dmg. unless the target has a tiny hitbox, the minimum range to get all bladecall hits is still fairly lenient and probably isnt that far off from the range where mirror blade has to stand to guarantee a bounce

outside of skill reliability, mirror blade also suffers from a lengthy cast time, falling behind bladecall in a dps comparison

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Then if the target does not move, indeed the unstable bladestorm hits far harder than mind stab  ; 4 seconds for the bladestorm to make its full effect however, that's a lengthy period. Against a single, unmoving target though, the bladestorm is aberrationally stronger by no less than ~90% (sounds surreal, just - test it).

i dont understand what is being said here, but i do know that you can place unstable bladestorm completely off target and as long as its within 1200 range of the target, it will still deal more dmg than mind stab

the argument that gs has "safe dps" kinda falls apart because playing dagger significantly handicapped can still quite easily catch up to the sustained dps on gs. yes, the main weakness of dagger is its exclusive reliance on projectiles. however, that hasnt stopped people from playing cvirt, which is very much exclusively projectiles

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I'd be curious to know what's making the difference according to them, since for what little I read they're just stating generalistic facts without crunching down numbers to convince me. "You'll lose damages", right; why?

afaik, its mostly people just regurgitating builds that other people make without fully understanding all the details. in this case, its a shallow claim that doesnt really give too much thought other than the fact that youd lose 1k or a couple hundred dps in the same optimal conditions

[Mevelios.4809]

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

wasnt really part of my line of thinking, but taking empowered illusions also means that you have to consider that it buffs all other phantasms (and clones though insignificant) as well

Not sure if I understood the underlying point; empowered illusions would only offer a benefit if wielding another weapon set, and since we're talking about power profiles it should include a sword offhand. Otherwise the berserkers still count amongst our most damaging phantasm skills thanks to the accompanying GS throw.

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

this argument doesnt really make much sense considering that you need some other entity [...] standing close to the target for the mirror blade to bounce.

Maybe an ally, or another enemy, in an actual context instead of golem testing from max range? Or the clone(s) generated out of the berserker(s). The bouncing will happen given they remain close to the target.

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

4 out of 6 of bladecalls projectiles are expected to hit even at max range. both hit for the same total value

a gs2 that doesnt bounce only hits for 33% of its dmg while bladecall can be expected to deal at least 66% of its dmg [...] the minimum range to get all bladecall hits is still fairly lenient and probably isnt that far off from the range where mirror blade has to stand to guarantee a bounce

Something's wrong between our simulations then, because out of my testing while leaving the might stacks to clones around, I'm still standing at ~40% higher damages in favor of mirror blade.

The second point I didn't deny, when mentioning both skills come with their lot of "ifs". I'm not sure about the bounces' range and I won't throw a random number, especially since the actual entities enabling the bounce usually move by following whatever you're trying to attack; as for bladecall, it's depending on the hitbox. You're safe on most targets by standing at a 180 range (melee's at 130).

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i dont understand what is being said here, but i do know that you can place unstable bladestorm completely off target and as long as its within 1200 range of the target, it will still deal more dmg than mind stab

the argument that gs has "safe dps" kinda falls apart because playing dagger significantly handicapped can still quite easily catch up to the sustained dps on gs. yes, the main weakness of dagger is its exclusive reliance on projectiles. however, that hasnt stopped people from playing cvirt, which is very much exclusively projectiles

On that first one I completely disagree. For the range, my bladestorm blades don't travel any farther than 600 range. For the damages, I'm counting on an ideal world in which you'd fire your skills as soon as their CD is down - mind stab has a shorter CD, compensating for its lower individual damage by a more frequent cast (10s against bladestorm's 12s). In this case there's only a rough 10% deviation in favor of bladestorm, tied to its 600 range.

On the second, two things mixed in - if we're talking sustain, both weapons work that way. The GS surges and waiting for the bounces, against the daggers travelling forth and back or waiting for the storm to complete. The part about projectiles merely is an observation - of course it isn't unplayable. To stay in the specific case of mesmer weapons, one of the two can bypass it however - that's trivial in PvE, true, I was thinking on the broader scale since it isn't the same in other contents.

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

afaik, its mostly people just regurgitating builds that other people make without fully understanding all the details. in this case, its a shallow claim that doesnt really give too much thought other than the fact that youd lose 1k or a couple hundred dps in the same optimal conditions

Don't play that card. Of course that's how trends work: "don't ask why". But so far, pretty much like the few builds I bothered reading to make myself an idea, you neither are providing many numbers on your observations (except at one moment about bladestorm) - largely generalistic statements. That's the exact same practice!

That's why I added a small anecdote earlier about what I remember of PoF's release. These trends are made by other players who would also rather play than spend hours, even days testing each and every little thing thoroughly, constantly at every tiny update. They're no different from you or me: they're players too! Again, it takes time to find ideas, practice, optimize. SotO is still recent and not fully released, after years of GS as the ranged power mainstay; revisions won't happen overnight, even less with the coming new weapons.

Take it for what it is: merely another opinion on what to play, just like you and I both have a similar opinion on the dagger's efficiency over the GS. It's up to those reading, in turn, to make their own opinion on what to think of it, and for that there's one undeniable factor: numbers! Run simulations, grab them, demonstrate; hence why I'd be curious to see their reasoning and their numbers, since at the end of the day... maybe I completely overlooked a detail and I'd be the one learning something about my favorite character? 😊

And anyway, in the end disagreeing's fine too. It's the opportunity to have ideas meet!

Edited October 27, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Curunen.8729]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:23 PM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Ooh. So it's about projectile and animation speed? Ok.

In PVP sure that's a possibility. I'm not very good at PVP but every Power Mesmer video I watch they spend 80-90% of their time engaging at range with the Greatsword and not in melee. I don't think it's as big of a deal as you imply.

I spent a long time looking at virtually every Power Mesmer build I could find on all the build sites. They ALL rely on the Greatsword in both PVE and PVP modes. Core, Chrono, and Virtuoso all use Greatsword but the Virtuoso is the most likely to swap it for a second dagger.

Power Mirage is just a meme tagging build but it also uses Greatsword.

Some builds do allow you to swap out to the Dagger or Sword but they always make it clear that you'll be losing damage.

Mesmer just does not have a higher DPS than Greatsword for Power.

 

Mesmer only has 6 weapons that can be used in the Mainhand. Of those only 2 are melee weapons.

Of all the OH options only Torch has a short ranged skill in the AOE burn.

Yet another ranged DPS weapon is just going to muddy the waters further.

If the Rifle does more DPS than the Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Greatsword again? But if the Rifle does less DPS than Greatsword then why the kitten would anyone use Rifle?

Well there it is then, we are coming from different perspectives.

I don't care enough for instanced pve beyond playing for rewards, but I can speak from a lot of wvw/pvp over the years to know how GS is used in that context. Apart from virtuoso, GS involves both ranged and melee - you can engage, pressure and chase at range, but often equally go in for the kill at melee, or things like blink+GS5 to interrupt something crucial.

This is not simply animation speed - we are going to likely get quite a few more weapons so there is plenty of room for alternative flavours. A ranged weapon that has different utility than GS or staff - it can have something straightforward like a port/detarget, cc and I'm even not opposed to having a support skill. In fact I would love if rifle involved a lot of ranged cc and damage. I don't subscribe to the view in instanced pve that that build x does 1k dps more than build y therefore the latter is useless, when as long as they are all above a certain threshold it's up to player preference.

I am opposed to targeting allies and spraying ectoplasmic healing, or smacking people around with the rifle on all 5 skills. Have one skill for a pbaoe but don't make the entire weapon melee. If that was the case we can have Hammer, Shortbow or I dunno, warhorn for those purposes.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Not sure if I understood the underlying point; empowered illusions would only offer a benefit if wielding another weapon set, and since we're talking about power profiles it should include a sword offhand. Otherwise the berserkers still count amongst our most damaging phantasm skills thanks to the accompanying GS throw.

comparing only berserker and swordsman is a bit of an odd limitation, particularly when camping gs puts it on the backfoot. pdps builds usually also come with disenchanter and some other phantasm on swap, if the player cares enough about them

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Maybe an ally, or another enemy, in an actual context instead of golem testing from max range? Or the clone(s) generated out of the berserker(s). The bouncing will happen given they remain close to the target.

so then youd delay mirror blade until such a situation occurs? wouldnt that give mirror blade another disadvantage?

there arent that many situations where youre randomly limited to 1200 range that somehow still always fulfils the bounce condition. given the context of pve, there isnt much reason to be constantly maintaining such a huge gap. a ranged attacker doesnt care about your range and will let you close in on them, while a melee attacker constantly trying to close in or doesnt have attention on you is provides an opportunity to be used. i assume that both skills will usually fully hit because id assume the player is intelligent enough to use those skills in the moments when they count the most

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

For the damages, I'm counting on an ideal world in which you'd fire your skills as soon as their CD is down - mind stab has a shorter CD, compensating for its lower individual damage by a more frequent cast (10s against bladestorm's 12s). In this case there's only a rough 10% deviation in favor of bladestorm, tied to its 600 range.

In the same ideal world, dagger would be throwing autos which would gradually make gs fall behind. similar to mirror blade vs bladecall, id also expect that the player would use unstable bladestorm intelligently

in any case, its not wise to compare gs in this way because its poor autos (which you spend half the time doing) significantly hold back the weapon. dps wise, youd rather be using both gs and dagger skills or gs with something that isnt worse in the situation (like sword if you can melee) if possible. this is my main takeaway point

ive assumed that gamemodes outside of pve are not part of this discussion due to skills and desired mechanics working differently

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Don't play that card.

i will play that card because its simply how these builds are presented. there have been countless examples of builds that double/triple the amount of apm or sacrifice dps reliability (like in the form of a weapon swap) for some 5-7% dps increase - only when played optimally. the dps loss is often exaggerated when in reality, its not all that significant. to be fair, they are guides that attempt to optimise max dps output

you are correct that it is the players job to question, experiment and figure out things for themselves. at the end of the day, you just play whatever suits your needs: whether its some balance between optimal dps, "safe dps", the feel of the weapon and maybe even a bit of rp

[rune.9572]

Meh. Them choosing rifle over a bow makes sure I'll never play it anyway, that is if I ever choose to come back to this game.

Rifle's such a boring weapon with boring, uninspired skins. I don't really care what it does, it's just a lame weapon. I don't see how they can make it feel good to play.

Edited October 28, 2023 by rune.9572

[Mevelios.4809]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:46 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

The impression I've always had is that sword trades off range for more defence rather than for more damage. Which might be a point where it's worth considering a melee weapon that's designed for maximising power DPS.

Honestly, blurred frenzy largely increases my survival chances. As much as I find the sword lacking in performance damages-wise, I absolutely cannot deny how much it contributes to keeping me safe. That's quite the frustrating feeling - for the risks I take, diving into melee with light armor, I don't get an output interesting enough to compete with top damage dealers; however I'd never trade blur for damages. I doubt there would be a proper way to balance it if the sword in main hand were to really gain a lot of damages, I just miss the longer 1.5s frenzy we had and its higher numbers: it's something that could be squeezed into a fast enough action thanks to quickness.

It's still the weapon I'm having the most fun with, playing some sort of ulfhedinn character - happily jumping into melee despite lacking armor, laughing while shredding apart whatever I can reach, and at times making a masterful demonstration of carpet roleplay when I miss the cue of a lethal attack incoming (you bet I've got some experience in that!). I've been able to make some good use of it as a power mirage relying heavily on interrupts (the same ambush attack generating also some shatter fodder, which keeps vulnerability stacks up while the CD is on) but... well, I can't make much of a test with this against idle golems, so it's never taken seriously. No matter, I'm still having a blast with it!

Yet, that's also why I'm gonna miss Illusionary defense. Under high pressure, combining it to other sources of protection made me feel like I had much heavier armor and could afford the risk; giving it up is something I find concerning.

15 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

i will play that card because its simply how these builds are presented.

Long story short - you risk feeding the conflict without actually providing clear numbers (and you indeed didn't include any in that last message regarding the subject), which is an exercise in persuading (the art of using vague images to create a belief) rather than convincing (using concrete, factual examples to explain an opinion). Not sure if that translates well in English the way it does in my native language, but that's not my approach; disapproving a practice but resorting to it because "others do it too", that's not how you improve a standing. And with a minor opinion as ours, it sure won't help, but to each their own!

Edited October 28, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Noodle Ant.1605]

17 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Long story short - you risk feeding the conflict without actually providing clear numbers…

i cut it short because it doesnt entirely relate to the main topic of this thread

whether or not claims such as “you lose dps” hold true has always been up to the player and how they play the build. you cant derive clear numbers from such unpredictability, unless you assume everyone always plays optimally or in the exact same way (not realistic)

i can give numbers (like dropping gs on mes is somewhere around a 1-2k dps loss depending on espec from the ~40k range, or ~5% when played optimally and ive already been giving similar figures from the start), but do these numbers really mean anything, particularly considering the majority of players who might not be playing the build optimally in the first place?

correct me if im wrong, but were you actually wondering how running gs is a dps increase and why the meta sites dont mention replacing it with dagger as a viable alternative?

[Puck.3697]

As funny as it'd be, I rly can't see a melee rifle 😂😂 

To be fair tho. I rly can't see rifle being wielded by a magic user either. A gun is such a weird concept for magic, same with ele, we are able to throw swords 1200 feet but suddenly need a bullet to do the same thing? 😂

[ShadowKatt.6740]

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

As funny as it'd be, I rly can't see a melee rifle 😂😂 

To be fair tho. I rly can't see rifle being wielded by a magic user either. A gun is such a weird concept for magic, same with ele, we are able to throw swords 1200 feet but suddenly need a bullet to do the same thing? 😂

Okay, slightly different but as a DM/GM that does tabletop guns, I hear a lot of people like you say that UNTIL I introduce them to the Gun Mage. The name changes on setting, but the long and short of it is magic cast with a gun. Imagine Dragons Breath rounds (which became a LOT more popular after John Wick 4), except you can fire it out of whatever gun you want. And not just fire, but ice, electric, acid, poison. Bullets enchanted with sleep or blindness, trick bullets that split into many and home ala Magic Missiles. There's a LOT of fun to be had with magic and guns.

Of course, that's more an elementalist kinda thing, so I don't know what ours will look like. Still, though, I CANNOT WAIT for my rifle.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay, slightly different but as a DM/GM that does tabletop guns, I hear a lot of people like you say that UNTIL I introduce them to the Gun Mage. The name changes on setting, but the long and short of it is magic cast with a gun. Imagine Dragons Breath rounds (which became a LOT more popular after John Wick 4), except you can fire it out of whatever gun you want. And not just fire, but ice, electric, acid, poison. Bullets enchanted with sleep or blindness, trick bullets that split into many and home ala Magic Missiles. There's a LOT of fun to be had with magic and guns.

Of course, that's more an elementalist kinda thing, so I don't know what ours will look like. Still, though, I CANNOT WAIT for my rifle.

There's also the possibility that the "rifle" in question isn't even using conventional bullets/cartridges at all, but is simply a convenient focus for channelling magical energy at a target.

We already have rifle and pistol skins that are completely lacking in a conventional chamber, barrel, or other means of loading and firing a bullet short of magic. The Zenith and Pinnacle skins you get through achievements are good examples (albeit not the only ones): the pistol and rifle of those sets are basically collections of crystals magically levitating in a vaguely gun-shaped configuration with no apparent firing mechanism. One could rationalise that there is a hidden location somewhere in there where a bullet or crystal can be stored before being magically accelerated towards a target, but some of the 'pistol' or 'rifle' skins really do make more sense as a wand or staff that has been modified to be easier to point at a target.

[Mevelios.4809]

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's also the possibility that the "rifle" in question isn't even using conventional bullets/cartridges at all, but is simply a convenient focus for channelling magical energy at a target.

I'll stick to my vacuum cleaner idea. Absorbs the opponent's magic. Cleans the room. Good multipurpose tool. Pretty sure I'm on to something big!

[Puck.3697]

18 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I'll stick to my vacuum cleaner idea. Absorbs the opponent's magic. Cleans the room. Good multipurpose tool. Pretty sure I'm on to something big!

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-second-part-of-guild-wars-2s-new-expansion-is-out-now-and-its-taking-players-to-the-demon-realm/

 

Seems like mesmer rifle is a support weapon 

 

We will at least get a preview of the new weapons in a beta week set for later this month, starting November 28. With the beta incoming, I asked ArenaNet's balance lead Cal Cohen what we could expect from the new weapon. "Each profession has its own needs," he says, "so we've been looking at how to enhance the roles available to them all in different ways. For example, staff on warrior and rifle on mesmer are intended for support builds

 

I swear if we about to get a bard specc that doesn't utilise bow, its gonna be a sad day. 

I feel like bow fits "bard" far more then rifle lol

Edited November 7, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Mevelios.4809]

Rifle as a support weapon is something we already suspected; three weeks before the beta to see how it'll really work!

I'd bet on it having blast finisher(s). One of the new relics heals on them, and ethereal blast combos (chaos storm/feedback/null field) provides chaos armor in its radius. Considering the update preview I wouldn't be surprised!

[draxynnic.3719]

We're not about to get a bard spec because we're not getting an elite spec at all. It's probably going to be designed primarily to work with chronomancer, maybe mirage if they give it alacrity on the ambush skill.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 10/27/2023 at 2:44 PM, Mevelios.4809 said:

Not sure if I understood the underlying point; empowered illusions would only offer a benefit if wielding another weapon set, and since we're talking about power profiles it should include a sword offhand. Otherwise the berserkers still count amongst our most damaging phantasm skills thanks to the accompanying GS throw.

Maybe an ally, or another enemy, in an actual context instead of golem testing from max range? Or the clone(s) generated out of the berserker(s). The bouncing will happen given they remain close to the target.

Something's wrong between our simulations then, because out of my testing while leaving the might stacks to clones around, I'm still standing at ~40% higher damages in favor of mirror blade.

The second point I didn't deny, when mentioning both skills come with their lot of "ifs". I'm not sure about the bounces' range and I won't throw a random number, especially since the actual entities enabling the bounce usually move by following whatever you're trying to attack; as for bladecall, it's depending on the hitbox. You're safe on most targets by standing at a 180 range (melee's at 130).

On that first one I completely disagree. For the range, my bladestorm blades don't travel any farther than 600 range. For the damages, I'm counting on an ideal world in which you'd fire your skills as soon as their CD is down - mind stab has a shorter CD, compensating for its lower individual damage by a more frequent cast (10s against bladestorm's 12s). In this case there's only a rough 10% deviation in favor of bladestorm, tied to its 600 range.

On the second, two things mixed in - if we're talking sustain, both weapons work that way. The GS surges and waiting for the bounces, against the daggers travelling forth and back or waiting for the storm to complete. The part about projectiles merely is an observation - of course it isn't unplayable. To stay in the specific case of mesmer weapons, one of the two can bypass it however - that's trivial in PvE, true, I was thinking on the broader scale since it isn't the same in other contents.

Don't play that card. Of course that's how trends work: "don't ask why". But so far, pretty much like the few builds I bothered reading to make myself an idea, you neither are providing many numbers on your observations (except at one moment about bladestorm) - largely generalistic statements. That's the exact same practice!

That's why I added a small anecdote earlier about what I remember of PoF's release. These trends are made by other players who would also rather play than spend hours, even days testing each and every little thing thoroughly, constantly at every tiny update. They're no different from you or me: they're players too! Again, it takes time to find ideas, practice, optimize. SotO is still recent and not fully released, after years of GS as the ranged power mainstay; revisions won't happen overnight, even less with the coming new weapons.

Take it for what it is: merely another opinion on what to play, just like you and I both have a similar opinion on the dagger's efficiency over the GS. It's up to those reading, in turn, to make their own opinion on what to think of it, and for that there's one undeniable factor: numbers! Run simulations, grab them, demonstrate; hence why I'd be curious to see their reasoning and their numbers, since at the end of the day... maybe I completely overlooked a detail and I'd be the one learning something about my favorite character? 😊

And anyway, in the end disagreeing's fine too. It's the opportunity to have ideas meet!

I don't have the resources to have maxed out characters. I don't have the time to devote hours to tediously practicing rotations over and over to gain infallible muscle memory.

I have spent a lot of time following the ranging discussions in the Snowcrows discord where they debate the detailed numbers in fine detail. But those mostly go over my head.

I've never seen a Power build for the mesmer for high end play that doesn't rely on the Greatsword.

Yes they rely on weapon swapping but thief is pretty much the only builds in the game that don't rely on swapping weapon skills to do their DPS. That's just the nature of games with cooldowns where you can't just keep just spamming the most powerful attacks.

 

Other than relying on other people who have invested the time to learn the intricacies of the math wars I only have anecdotal evidence.

I've spent virtually the entire time of my 1 year playing this game playing as a Power Chronomancer. Since SotO I've been using a lot of going back and forth between Dagger and Greatsword.

Lately every time I'm trying to play with the Dagger I keep getting frustrated because enemies aren't dying as fast as I expect them to do I swap back to Greatsword and it just seems to kill better for me.

 

My experiences match up with what I see in every theory crafter.

[Mevelios.4809]

41 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Lately every time I'm trying to play with the Dagger I keep getting frustrated because enemies aren't dying as fast as I expect them to do I swap back to Greatsword and it just seems to kill better for me.

Using plural, in multitarget context maybe you're referring to open world content; in this case yes, the GS has a better burst with merely two seconds being enough to dish out its main attacks, whereas the dagger has delayed effects (the 4sec long storm, the second half of bladecall's attacks after ~1.5sec). It'd take a pull such as the focus' to make the dagger piercing attacks match it well, then keeping the targets in place or at least close to the storm to pull the extra damages; that's a situation better fitting a boss fight.

The part about efficiency was numbers against numbers, in context on an idle golem to fit what were we discussing (or did I forget the content? Been nearly two weeks already). Then again, there's finding the right combination of skills ("rotation", a term I dislike for sounding like a machine) with the right offhand, though the sword is the main candidate here.

I'd be curious to see the math you referred to; maybe I missed something! I don't mind being proven wrong, I only ask to understand.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

15 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Yes they rely on weapon swapping but thief is pretty much the only builds in the game that don't rely on swapping weapon skills to do their DPS. That's just the nature of games with cooldowns where you can't just keep just spamming the most powerful attacks.

Wait wait, so is that why people run GS/GS? or Staff/Staff or two of any weapon? So if you were to, say, use Chaos Storm on one staff, you could switch to your OTHER staff and Chaos Storm again? I'd just assumed that the cooldown would be shared across the weapons.

[Curunen.8729]

51 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Wait wait, so is that why people run GS/GS? or Staff/Staff or two of any weapon? So if you were to, say, use Chaos Storm on one staff, you could switch to your OTHER staff and Chaos Storm again? I'd just assumed that the cooldown would be shared across the weapons.

Yeah cooldown is shared, it's for eg energy sigils which effectively function as a "reload" for dodge.