As a casual player: Virtuoso, Chronomancer or Mirage?

[ShadowKatt.6740]

11 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I'm intrigued.

What do you find appealing about using Core Mesmer over any of the elite specs?

 

Since reaching lvl 80 I've only used the core spec a few times to try out a Domination/Dueling/Illusions build. 

You wanna know the truth? I just like clones.

Here's the thing I like about the mesmer. I know we're not the strongest, and we pretty much get weaker with every passing patch but I never wanted to be the bruiser of the party anyway. I never wanted to be the support healer, I never wanted to be the lone survivor, I just wanted to have fun. That's what I did in GW1. I wasn't an interupter like everyone so desperately wanted (My reflexes are NOT condusive to interupting) and I did not play support well. I was a bit of a shutdown mesmer. I was just there to have fun by picking someone out and making their day miserable. Obviously that didn't translate over to GW2 but now we have CLONES! Rather than Domination Anet took the Illusion line and just ran with it and while I'm never the strongest I do take a great joy in just being UNKILLABLE.

One of the things that I tell new players about mesmers when they ask what they do and how they work is that a well played mesmer will never really have the condi output of a necromancer or elementalist, and we'll never have the strike damage of warriors or rangers, but the one thing we do well is Mesmers. Never. Die. For starters, we have three clones. Unlike every other profession, you're never sure you've killed a mesmer until it's stopped moving AND you've poked the body to make sure it's real. There's only a 25% chance you're even attacking the right mesmer, and you just can't put a price on that level of mind kittenery. We have stealth, meaning that you might never even see a mesmer. Not before we strike; that's a Thief thing. No, you just might not see us....ever. A good mesmer can use its myriad of invisibilities to just walk right past someone and they'll never know the difference. And then there's our movement abilities. Blinks, jumps, teleports, portals. As if it wasn't hard enough to kill a mesmer when you can't even figure out which one it is, if you DO fine the right one, well, we just might not be there. Particularly on a staff if someone comes to hit you, press 2. Now you're not there, a clone is there, they're targetting and attacking the clone and they don't even know the difference. Decoy lets you do the same while running forward. Blink lets you just...blink. You were here, now you're there. Mesmers are impossible to catch, harder to touch, and nearly impossible to kill without overwhelming pressure or overwhelming numbers.

And here's the kicker: I don't need any spec to do that and those specs actually take away from it. Chrono's and their wells don't really benefit that. The wells, if you want the full effect, mean you have to stand still when a mesmers greatest asset is their mobility. Mirages similarly lose their dodge and want you to stand there and fight focusing on timely ambushes. And Virtuosos are the worst of all, trading all your clones and the greatest gift ever given to Mesmers in exchange for blades which, while they do great damage, don't protect you in any way relagating you to a kill or be killed position, either try to overwhelm the enemy with damage before they can kill you first. That's not a mesmers place. That's an elementalist place. That's what they do. Thats not what we do.

So I play a basic, core standard condi-staff mesmer. And I am immortal. I'm untouchable. I'm unkillable. Open world, metas, fractals, dungeons, I'm the one that makes sure no one goes down. Because I can. Because while I'm reviving someone I have three clones that are carrying on the fight for me (Clones don't do damage, but they can stack conditions all day and draw aggro). I and my clones can engage multiple targets at once, dividing the pressure up and making it more manageable. Because of the way the staff works I can condi OR buff since most skills do both. And I can even help out my party with invisibility or teleportation if they need it. And I can do all that without having to touch an elite spec. There's nothing wrong with them. But there's also nothing wrong with just playing with the basics. The mesmer, even nerfed to hell and back, is still great to play.

[Curunen.8729]

What do you like more thematically?

Do you want permanent pink daggers floating over your character? Are you happy with losing a normal dodge animation and style for different benefits? Do you like the idea of being a time lord?

Tbh any of them are good to play if you enjoy the style enough to dedicate time to learning it.

Mirage is really easy to play in pve though whichever weapons and build you want to use, even after the dodge nerf. Dagger is suprisingly good here as well - way more fun than virtuoso personally.

 

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Mirages similarly lose their dodge and want you to stand there

😳

No, I can only disagree. You've been playing the staff too much, it's the only weapon on mirage that may encourage standing in place for the sake of Mirage mantle. The very principle of mirage cloak replacing the ordinary dodge roll sure is to pull out ambushes, but also to keep acting instead of waiting for the roll to unfold. The sword even makes you jump everywhere thanks to its ambush, the axe keeps you moving while attacking too, the mirage utilities make you move around for three out of the four of them.

Edited November 6, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[ShadowKatt.6740]

43 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

😳

No, I can only disagree. You've been playing the staff too much, it's the only weapon on mirage that may encourage standing in place for the sake of Mirage mantle. The very principle of mirage cloak replacing the ordinary dodge roll sure is to pull out ambushes, but also to keep acting instead of waiting for the roll to unfold. The sword even makes you jump everywhere thanks to its ambush, the axe keeps you moving while attacking too, the mirage utilities make you move around for three out of the four of them.

Okay, that may be the case. Full honesty, I like my dodge roll, and so I have NOT played the mirage a lot. I've dabbled with it a bit, I've got my Veilrender, but I don't like it. Maybe you're right and I am misusing it. All I can say is that that's my interpretation of it. That they don't want you to move. They want you to facetank things and use the distortion you get from Mirage Cloak to 'dodge' attacks and counterattack with ambushes. The sword I think is an oddball since they seem to want you to use the ambush as an opening move, which means that the distortion part is kinda wasted. You weren't being hit anyway (presumably). Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but the mirage just doesn't scream 'Mobility' to me. It screams bash things to pieces.

[Curunen.8729]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay, that may be the case. Full honesty, I like my dodge roll, and so I have NOT played the mirage a lot. I've dabbled with it a bit, I've got my Veilrender, but I don't like it. Maybe you're right and I am misusing it. All I can say is that that's my interpretation of it. That they don't want you to move. They want you to facetank things and use the distortion you get from Mirage Cloak to 'dodge' attacks and counterattack with ambushes. The sword I think is an oddball since they seem to want you to use the ambush as an opening move, which means that the distortion part is kinda wasted. You weren't being hit anyway (presumably). Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but the mirage just doesn't scream 'Mobility' to me. It screams bash things to pieces.

Mirage is extremely agile in combat, though can lack the raw out of combat ground speed compared with some other classes/specs, unless specifically taking sword ambush and a source of movement speed.

Dodge simply allows the option not to move, but also the option to move in any direction and use any ability - taking into account forward movement speed bias. Likewise agility comes from skills - mirage advance, illusionary ambush, sand through glass, jaunt. Nevermind weapon skills like axe 2, axe 3, staff 2, sword ambush, and of course core utility such as blink.

While some of that is shared across specs, it's still far more agile than chrono or virtuoso. You can build to play with little movement, or build to port around all over the place.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

All I can say is that that's my interpretation of it. That they don't want you to move. They want you to facetank things and use the distortion you get from Mirage Cloak to 'dodge' attacks and counterattack with ambushes. The sword I think is an oddball since they seem to want you to use the ambush as an opening move, which means that the distortion part is kinda wasted. You weren't being hit anyway (presumably). Like I said, maybe I'm wrong, but the mirage just doesn't scream 'Mobility' to me. It screams bash things to pieces.

Since it's my favorite e-spec, I'm pretty confident I can disambiguate a few things about it:

• Mirage cloak is an offensive tool first to make use of ambush attacks, then with some experience it serves at the same time as a counterattack indeed. Still, you can simply use it as an offensive tool; ambushes vary depending the weapon and give each of them an identity.
• Sword is the melee counterattacker, but covers more than that - a tool of survival, a great clone summoning ability, and the boon bane. You can pump out a lot of shatter fodder that also builds up vulnerability stacks and rip boons from their targets; you can add an extra dodge ability; you can trigger every interrupt ability in your arsenal. My favorite! Mirage mantle pushes the boon ripping farther but I don't find any use for it in PvE thanks to the clones - I find Desert distortion to be more useful.
• Dagger is the ranged version of the counterattacker, but hits like a truck. You trade several of the options above to deal heavy direct damages that pierce, while retaining the daze on its ambush to again trigger any interrupt ability you may have. Unlike virtuoso, it can't be relied on as a condi weapon; mirage mantle provides three extra vulnerability stacks on it, which I find so-so considering there already are the stacks from the interrupts. I'd rather use desert distortion to pull off more ambush attacks.
• Greatsword is rather straightforward - direct damages, end of it. Might & vulnerability stacks to be pulled off from its ambush for self-buffing. Mirage cloak here only works as an offensive tool to pull off the ambush attack as often as possible, which is further reinforced by mirage mantle.
• Axe works similarly to the historical dueling spec+pistol offhand; a mix of direct & condi damages. Lots of finishers from it and a solid clone summoning; part of the faster-paced weapons that also offers some survivability like the sword (axes of symmetry against blurred frenzy). Mirage mantle is utterly useless in PvE on it.
• Scepter is a brute when you're the target of attacks, but falls a bit short without enemy attention. Mixes direct & condi damages too at range with a huge potential at generating clones (especially from its counter, the autoattack contributes too). But kitten, it's slow! Fully focused on channeling attacks, though mirage mantle gives quickness on ambush to make it act faster.
• Finally the staff - the most passive of them, since almost everything relies on its autoattack & ambush. Buffing potential, full focus on condi damages while offering both an ethereal field & finishers. Mirage mantle pushes farther the buffing with alacrity, but takes some careful positioning to be consistent.

Desert distortion turns our shatter 4 into an offensive ability, against mirage mantle for some more-or-less handy uses; Dune cloak works well on power builds to rip off boons regardless of the weapon used so the domination spec works its magic, whereas condi builds will favor Infinite horizon; Self-deception will pump out much needed clones, against Riddle of sand which I, uh, personally can't care less about since it's a condi trait when I'd rather bring more clones to cast their ambushes with me on such builds.

IMO, it's the most proactive gameplay. Easy to start with, harder to master to find the survivability the e-spec is known for; the effort is worth the reward, despite part of its numbers being hard to evaluate - counters mean facing an active target, not some idle golem. It's mobile and doesn't let up the pressure on its targets, it lets you choose between timing a counter or just going fully on the offensive, and ambushes give more depth to mainhand weapons to further refine your play style; but I'm biased, this is what I enjoy the most since PoF!

[draxynnic.3719]

15 hours ago, Blur.3465 said:

Mirage itself is incredibly tanky even with Viper gear. Instead of spending gold on celestial / trailblazer, you can instantly go with Viper and be set-up for any content.
As Staff/Staff mirage I had no trouble soloing champions and staying alive in open world. Many dodges and fast endurance regeneration, clones and staff utility are more than enough to keep you going and kicking! 
Mirage damage is already low as is, so lowering it even more for the sake of survival isn't a good trade-off. You want to have damage to kill enemies -- it already has more than enough survivability tools @.@

A few comments:

First, you can't assume that the OP can do everything you can do. I tend to default to glass on mirage myself unless I'm planning to go up against something with a lot of undodgeable or difficult-to-dodge pressure, but I've been playing since release and have full raid legendary armour and ring, mostly from playing guardian and mesmer. I don't want to make assumptions about anyone's skill levels, but I'm guessing you're a bit more experienced than the person posting for advice on which elite spec to take for casual play with their first mesmer.

Second, I think you're greatly overestimating how much of a DPS loss giving up the Viper's actually means. Trailblazer's gives up the power stats... but that's not the majority of the damage on a Viper's build anyway. In exchange you get health and a ton of toughness. Celestial keeps most of your power stats at the cost of some of your condi damage, but also gives you a good chunk of toughness and vitality and close to healer levels of boon duration and healing power (there's a reason celestial is broken on so many WvW builds). In my experience, the difference in damage between those two sets and viper's isn't something you really feel that strongly unless you're using a DPS meter), while you do feel the difference in durability and sustain.

Now, if one is planning to go into raids, strikes, fractals and so on, then absolutely, Viper's. On the other hand, at that point one is probably also thinking about getting ascended, so getting an exotic Celestial or Trailblazer's set and then transitioning into ascended Viper's is an approach to get the best of both worlds. On the gripping hand, we can't assume that the next step for the person who's asking for advice for builds for casual play is that they'll be going into endgame instanced PvE next. They might go into WvW next, in which case they'll definitely benefit from a set that isn't glass.

[Blur.3465]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A few comments:

First, you can't assume that the OP can do everything you can do. I tend to default to glass on mirage myself unless I'm planning to go up against something with a lot of undodgeable or difficult-to-dodge pressure, but I've been playing since release and have full raid legendary armour and ring, mostly from playing guardian and mesmer. I don't want to make assumptions about anyone's skill levels, but I'm guessing you're a bit more experienced than the person posting for advice on which elite spec to take for casual play with their first mesmer.

Second, I think you're greatly overestimating how much of a DPS loss giving up the Viper's actually means. Trailblazer's gives up the power stats... but that's not the majority of the damage on a Viper's build anyway. In exchange you get health and a ton of toughness. Celestial keeps most of your power stats at the cost of some of your condi damage, but also gives you a good chunk of toughness and vitality and close to healer levels of boon duration and healing power (there's a reason celestial is broken on so many WvW builds). In my experience, the difference in damage between those two sets and viper's isn't something you really feel that strongly unless you're using a DPS meter), while you do feel the difference in durability and sustain.

Now, if one is planning to go into raids, strikes, fractals and so on, then absolutely, Viper's. On the other hand, at that point one is probably also thinking about getting ascended, so getting an exotic Celestial or Trailblazer's set and then transitioning into ascended Viper's is an approach to get the best of both worlds. On the gripping hand, we can't assume that the next step for the person who's asking for advice for builds for casual play is that they'll be going into endgame instanced PvE next. They might go into WvW next, in which case they'll definitely benefit from a set that isn't glass.

Of course and fair points all of those!
I am merely stating this from my personal experience and how I like to approach professions when it comes to gearing.
I like to spare whatever bit of gold I can and also have a profession which will perform well in all game modes, for a sense of feeling completed kinda!
Of all the given Mesmer professions Mirage is the tankiest and it can easily survive with Viper's gear. 
I am not assuming OP's skill level, and every profession takes a bit of time to master and get in the hang of; but Mirage is the tankiest and, imo, easiest to play and survive.
Jaunt cleanses conditions and teleports you from danger with 3 charges in store to use! Which is why I feel any gear other than Viper's will be a waste of gold given the utility and nice survivability Mirage has.

At the end of the day, it is all down to OP and if they'll do fractals/raids. If not, Trailblazer/Celestial, sure!
For PvP I think Celestial stats are the way to go for Mirage? Not sure.

Either way, can't go wrong with either! 🙂

Edited November 7, 2023 by Blur.3465

[Roadkizzle.2157]

13 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Since it's my favorite e-spec, I'm pretty confident I can disambiguate a few things about it:

• Mirage cloak is an offensive tool first to make use of ambush attacks, then with some experience it serves at the same time as a counterattack indeed. Still, you can simply use it as an offensive tool; ambushes vary depending the weapon and give each of them an identity.
• Sword is the melee counterattacker, but covers more than that - a tool of survival, a great clone summoning ability, and the boon bane. You can pump out a lot of shatter fodder that also builds up vulnerability stacks and rip boons from their targets; you can add an extra dodge ability; you can trigger every interrupt ability in your arsenal. My favorite! Mirage mantle pushes the boon ripping farther but I don't find any use for it in PvE thanks to the clones - I find Desert distortion to be more useful.
• Dagger is the ranged version of the counterattacker, but hits like a truck. You trade several of the options above to deal heavy direct damages that pierce, while retaining the daze on its ambush to again trigger any interrupt ability you may have. Unlike virtuoso, it can't be relied on as a condi weapon; mirage mantle provides three extra vulnerability stacks on it, which I find so-so considering there already are the stacks from the interrupts. I'd rather use desert distortion to pull off more ambush attacks.
• Greatsword is rather straightforward - direct damages, end of it. Might & vulnerability stacks to be pulled off from its ambush for self-buffing. Mirage cloak here only works as an offensive tool to pull off the ambush attack as often as possible, which is further reinforced by mirage mantle.
• Axe works similarly to the historical dueling spec+pistol offhand; a mix of direct & condi damages. Lots of finishers from it and a solid clone summoning; part of the faster-paced weapons that also offers some survivability like the sword (axes of symmetry against blurred frenzy). Mirage mantle is utterly useless in PvE on it.
• Scepter is a brute when you're the target of attacks, but falls a bit short without enemy attention. Mixes direct & condi damages too at range with a huge potential at generating clones (especially from its counter, the autoattack contributes too). But kitten, it's slow! Fully focused on channeling attacks, though mirage mantle gives quickness on ambush to make it act faster.
• Finally the staff - the most passive of them, since almost everything relies on its autoattack & ambush. Buffing potential, full focus on condi damages while offering both an ethereal field & finishers. Mirage mantle pushes farther the buffing with alacrity, but takes some careful positioning to be consistent.

Desert distortion turns our shatter 4 into an offensive ability, against mirage mantle for some more-or-less handy uses; Dune cloak works well on power builds to rip off boons regardless of the weapon used so the domination spec works its magic, whereas condi builds will favor Infinite horizon; Self-deception will pump out much needed clones, against Riddle of sand which I, uh, personally can't care less about since it's a condi trait when I'd rather bring more clones to cast their ambushes with me on such builds.

IMO, it's the most proactive gameplay. Easy to start with, harder to master to find the survivability the e-spec is known for; the effort is worth the reward, despite part of its numbers being hard to evaluate - counters mean facing an active target, not some idle golem. It's mobile and doesn't let up the pressure on its targets, it lets you choose between timing a counter or just going fully on the offensive, and ambushes give more depth to mainhand weapons to further refine your play style; but I'm biased, this is what I enjoy the most since PoF!

I only tried Mirage with Staff and Axe. I thought staff was boring and axe was just frustrating to play with.

 

But I had discounted Sword... Looking at it now after you're talking it up I'm seeing some more benefits though. On Chrono I was always having difficulty generating clones with Sword. But having the interrupt and clone generation on Mirage Cloak seems very useful along with Sword 2.

Can you provide a sample build for a sword Mirage?

[Blur.3465]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I only tried Mirage with Staff and Axe. I thought staff was boring and axe was just frustrating to play with.

 

But I had discounted Sword... Looking at it now after you're talking it up I'm seeing some more benefits though. On Chrono I was always having difficulty generating clones with Sword. But having the interrupt and clone generation on Mirage Cloak seems very useful along with Sword 2.

Can you provide a sample build for a sword Mirage?

I second this. 
Would love to see some sword mirage builds too. 

Got tired of staff/staff and I don't like axe gameplay.
Playing virtuoso now, but defo curious about sword build!

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Can you provide a sample build for a sword Mirage?

Sure, here goes one! I basically gave it berserker gear, but you can mix & match the equipment bonuses, weapons/relic in use, runes and sigils depending your preferences.

Most of it are the ordinary picks for any direct damage dealer. Dodging hits and removes boons, dazing causes a lot of vulnerability (+triggers your extra 0.5% damages per stack so it's a litteral 12% increased damages for you during 5 secs), the sword clones remove boons & keep stacking more vulnerability, then the offhand can vary depending your needs or preferences:

• the sword offhand is the go-to single target damage dealer thanks to its phantasm on low CD +successful block if you have the opportunity to land it (remember it generates a clone on success or may serve as an emergency daze);
• the focus, well, we all know how useful it can prove;
• the shield is my preference over multitarget contexts (the phantasms on both blocks blow up into an AoE) however the Tides of time do not trigger Dazzling (maybe because both stuns forth & back would be capable of causing too easily 10 stacks over multiple targets - otherwise it's a bug);
• finally the pistol can be a pick if you'd rather use Duelist's discipline over Phantasmal fury to frequently reset its phantasm, a valid strategy to bring out more damages from that weapon. Note that you'd better hold back on the Magic bullet sadly, since you may end up reducing its CD which is a bit counterproductive when it's the phantasm you want for more single-target damages (for phantasms, the swordsman is still stronger than the duelist). It's fun to pew-pew-pew so much but slash-slash-slash remains more effective.

Then you can also opt out of the dueling spec to pick chaos, giving up some damage for better defense & access to Chaotic interruption (which can let you bet on fewer weapon skills in use to reset as often as possible blurred frenzy and any phantasm).

Regarding utilities, with all the boon ripping the Phantasmal disenchanter is really strong. Crystal sands isn't really powerful as-is but contributes to clone production thanks to Self-deception and the sword ambush afterwards (+extra damages on shattering the Mirage mirror) to make it a decently damaging utility, though extremely precise. Finally, the Mantra of pain can serve as an extra damage dealing option (and small self-might buffing tool during iframes or when away from your target), but can largely be replaced with any option you fancy:

• Mirage advance then return can generate two clones and produce a little direct damage while saving up your endurance if you wanted an approach skill. Largely inefficient though, and no leap finisher on it so you won't even have the opportunity to get an armor out of it.
• Sand through glass as a stunbreaker, extra dodge option, and a mirage mirror. I usually combine it to a Jaunt back in place for easy clone production without spending more than the dodge time away from my target, but it's largely overkill regarding clones - with the rest of the options, my shatters usually can't keep up even under alacrity.
• Feedback & Null field can provide projectile protection for the former, boon/condition removal for the latter while both are ethereal field to trigger your leap finishers and get a chaos armor for a bit of extra survivability (don't expect much from it, but it's there).
• Arcane thievery works well in condition-intense environments for your survival, while stealing your target's boons to make way for your phantasmal disenchanter or your extra damages against boonless targets. Mimic may also find room if you'd rather reset immediately the disenchanter itself or crystal sands for some reason.
• The Phantasmal defender can work against multiple targets to take some pressure off you, but it's more of an open world thing.
• Finally, you can also use Mantra of distraction for more interrupts (the preparation also reducing Diversion's CD when you're not hitting something).

I just can't get enough of this build and have fun since PoF with it!

Edited November 7, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Blur.3465]

2 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Sure, here goes one! I basically gave it berserker gear, but you can mix & match the equipment bonuses, weapons/relic in use, runes and sigils depending your preferences.

Most of it are the ordinary picks for any direct damage dealer. Dodging hits and removes boons, dazing causes a lot of vulnerability (+triggers your extra 0.5% damages per stack so it's a litteral 12% increased damages for you during 5 secs), the sword clones remove boons & keep stacking more vulnerability, then the offhand can vary depending your needs or preferences:

• the sword offhand is the go-to single target damage dealer thanks to its phantasm on low CD +successful block if you have the opportunity to land it (remember it generates a clone on success or may serve as an emergency daze);
• the focus, well, we all know how useful it can prove;
• the shield is my preference over multitarget contexts (the phantasms on both blocks blow up into an AoE) however the Tides of time do not trigger Dazzling (maybe because both stuns forth & back would be capable of causing too easily 10 stacks over multiple targets - otherwise it's a bug);
• finally the pistol can be a pick if you'd rather use Duelist's discipline over Phantasmal fury to frequently reset its phantasm, a valid strategy to bring out more damages from that weapon. Note that you'd better hold back on the Magic bullet sadly, since you may end up reducing its CD which is a bit counterproductive when it's the phantasm you want for more single-target damages (for phantasms, the swordsman is still stronger than the duelist). It's fun to pew-pew-pew so much but slash-slash-slash remains more effective.

Then you can also opt out of the dueling spec to pick chaos, giving up some damage for better defense & access to Chaotic interruption (which can let you bet on fewer weapon skills in use to reset as often as possible blurred frenzy and any phantasm).

Regarding utilities, with all the boon ripping the Phantasmal disenchanter is really strong. Crystal sands isn't really powerful as-is but contributes to clone production thanks to Self-deception and the sword ambush afterwards (+extra damages on shattering the Mirage mirror) to make it a decently damaging utility, though extremely precise. Finally, the Mantra of pain can serve as an extra damage dealing option (and small self-might buffing tool during iframes or when away from your target), but can largely be replaced with any option you fancy:

• Mirage advance then return can generate two clones and produce a little direct damage while saving up your endurance if you wanted an approach skill. Largely inefficient though, and no leap finisher on it so you won't even have the opportunity to get an armor out of it.
• Sand through glass as a stunbreaker, extra dodge option, and a mirage mirror. I usually combine it to a Jaunt back in place for easy clone production without spending more than the dodge time away from my target, but it's largely overkill regarding clones - with the rest of the options, my shatters usually can't keep up even under alacrity.
• Feedback & Null field can provide projectile protection for the former, boon/condition removal for the latter while both are ethereal field to trigger your leap finishers and get a chaos armor for a bit of extra survivability (don't expect much from it, but it's there).
• Arcane thievery works well in condition-intense environments for your survival, while stealing your target's boons to make way for your phantasmal disenchanter or your extra damages against boonless targets. Mimic may also find room if you'd rather reset immediately the disenchanter itself or crystal sands for some reason.
• The Phantasmal defender can work against multiple targets to take some pressure off you, but it's more of an open world thing.
• Finally, you can also use Mantra of distraction for more interrupts (the preparation also reducing Diversion's CD when you're not hitting something).

I just can't get enough of this build and have fun since PoF with it!

Looks like a lot of fun! 
Out of curiosity, how do you think it would perform in high-end PvE content like fractals and raids? 

[Mevelios.4809]

16 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

Looks like a lot of fun! 
Out of curiosity, how do you think it would perform in high-end PvE content like fractals and raids? 

I'm always using it, simple as that. Thing is, since meta builds are tested on idle golems while your interrupts can only be triggered against an active target to get your actual numbers, idle testing isnt' relevant - hence since PoF, I'm just a laughingstock by the "metametameta" crowd. It takes a lot of practice too - landing well your interrupts isn't something you happen to master in just an hour or two.

It's a heavily proactive build which puts the mirage's mechanics to work intensively, so it won't be enjoyable for everyone. You can expect an output largely comparable to the ordinary GS power builds, hence: you better be some intense melee fan like me to put hours into mastering it. Still, oh dear, what fun if (like me) you can't stand being a sitting duck just channeling constantly its autoattack! 😆

Note that it doesn't leave much room for error, for the sake of your output; most of your damages may not come from breaking mirage mirrors or triggering Sand shards at the end of your dodge, but both still imply being in melee - together they still provide 5 to 10% of your damages. Targets making you walk away will obviously hinder that, so it's really hard to measure well. Be sure of one thing: you may not necessarily hit the top dps spot, but you won't be competing with the healers for dealing damages!

Edited November 7, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[VeronicanPlay.1945]

I can recommend Mirage GS/GS with energy regen on kill and weapon swap. I am also trying out GS/Dagger as the Dagger ambush is awesome, generate a clone on dodge that use the same skill is even better.

[Panda.1967]

On 11/5/2023 at 9:36 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

You're not wrong, but I think there are a couple of things you miss:

First, chronomancer is more awkward to unlock - it has the HoT elite specialisation unlock system whereby you need to unlock virtually everything else before you get your first grandmaster major and can fill out an entire build. Later elite specialisations have a more sensible system whereby you can unlock a full row with considerably less hero points, allowing you to get started much more quickly. My advice for newer players is typically to get a PoF or EoD elite specialisation first as a result.

Second, while chronomancer is the closest elite specialisation to core behaviour... this isn't necessarily better for a new player. Virtuoso works out simpler because you don't have to balance out whether to use clones, just let those daggers fly when you have a full set, and virtuoso can bring additional defences to make up for the distraction effect that clones can provide. Mirages can be very tough, especially if you make use of sigils and other sources of additional endurance, and playing mirage means you can get away with ignoring shatters altogether (although more advanced mirage play still uses them).

Fair points… but I still hold that Chrono is the most casual friendly… the awkwardness to unlock is ultimately a non issue since HP trains are a thing that are run regularly and usually you need to unlock the full espec anyways since the actually useful grandmaster trait is almost always at the end of the espec unlock. It’s rare for a build to just use all the middle traits on any espec, so there is going to be some awkwardness nomatter what.

As for your second point… I’d argue that depends on if they leveled the mesmer to 80 or boosted… if you leveled to 80 as mesmer then transitioning from core to Chrono is by far the most intuitive since you only actually have one new thing to learn, how to properly time Continuum Split… everythinng else is exactly the same as what you’ve been playing from 1-80… The chronomancer’s Shatter skills are all just slightly buffed versions of core Shatters even. Split Second is just Mind Wrack with a second strike. Rewinder is just Cry of Frustration with a cooldown reduction. Time Sink is Diversion with added Slow.

If you boosted and have never leveled a mesmer before then Virtuoso might be better since the lack of clones makes it feel like any other class… the reason I say its not the most casual friendly though, is because if you did level to 80 (casual players tend to do this more often than not) you have to train yourself to not expect clones to distract enemies anymore, ontop of learning all new shatters. Its harder to learn a new playstyle than to just learn one new skill.

As for Mirage… I honestly love that mirage can get away with not shattering their clones… I actually wish they would have leaned more into this with the espec design too… Mirage Axe was designed around keeping 3 clones out at all times and even lets you redirect them to new enemies to keep them from shattering, Ambushes encourage you to not shatter your clones, the lack of unique shatters even implies the espec wasn’t designed to use shatters (though they should have replaced shatters with something else)… the espec had so much wasted potential… the issue with mirage for casual play though is the complexity of its mirage cloak and mirage mirrors mechanics… the Ambush skills are easy enough to learn, but balancing use if mirage cloak and mirrors to keep those ambushes rolling while not accidentally getting yourself killed takes some learning.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Fair points… but I still hold that Chrono is the most casual friendly… the awkwardness to unlock is ultimately a non issue since HP trains are a thing that are run regularly and usually you need to unlock the full espec anyways since the actually useful grandmaster trait is almost always at the end of the espec unlock. It’s rare for a build to just use all the middle traits on any espec, so there is going to be some awkwardness nomatter what.

As for your second point… I’d argue that depends on if they leveled the mesmer to 80 or boosted… if you leveled to 80 as mesmer then transitioning from core to Chrono is by far the most intuitive since you only actually have one new thing to learn, how to properly time Continuum Split… everythinng else is exactly the same as what you’ve been playing from 1-80… The chronomancer’s Shatter skills are all just slightly buffed versions of core Shatters even. Split Second is just Mind Wrack with a second strike. Rewinder is just Cry of Frustration with a cooldown reduction. Time Sink is Diversion with added Slow.

If you boosted and have never leveled a mesmer before then Virtuoso might be better since the lack of clones makes it feel like any other class… the reason I say its not the most casual friendly though, is because if you did level to 80 (casual players tend to do this more often than not) you have to train yourself to not expect clones to distract enemies anymore, ontop of learning all new shatters. Its harder to learn a new playstyle than to just learn one new skill.

As for Mirage… I honestly love that mirage can get away with not shattering their clones… I actually wish they would have leaned more into this with the espec design too… Mirage Axe was designed around keeping 3 clones out at all times and even lets you redirect them to new enemies to keep them from shattering, Ambushes encourage you to not shatter your clones, the lack of unique shatters even implies the espec wasn’t designed to use shatters (though they should have replaced shatters with something else)… the espec had so much wasted potential… the issue with mirage for casual play though is the complexity of its mirage cloak and mirage mirrors mechanics… the Ambush skills are easy enough to learn, but balancing use if mirage cloak and mirrors to keep those ambushes rolling while not accidentally getting yourself killed takes some learning.

When did you start playing GW2?

 

I started playing 1 year ago.

The core game is so easy you don't use any mechanics on the classes. 

 

As long as you maintain equipment at your level it's much easier just to kill everything with a few Greatsword attacks.

The enemies in core open world maps die too quickly to consider whether to shatter or use clones as distractions.

 

Even casual players shouldn't have trouble learning the more straightforward gameplay of a Virtuoso or a Staff Mirage (other Mirage builds are much more complicated).

They'll have figured it out by the time they get the hero points needed to complete the spec line.

The similarity with the core spec is not nearly as important in my mind as how much easier it is to complete the content in the game with Virtuoso or Staff Mirage than it is with Chronomancer.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Fair points… but I still hold that Chrono is the most casual friendly… the awkwardness to unlock is ultimately a non issue since HP trains are a thing that are run regularly and usually you need to unlock the full espec anyways since the actually useful grandmaster trait is almost always at the end of the espec unlock. It’s rare for a build to just use all the middle traits on any espec, so there is going to be some awkwardness nomatter what.

I don't have the precise numbers of hero points required because my level 80 mesmer has all the elite specialisations unlocked, but you can absolutely make power virtuoso work with just the middle line of traits. That's just seven unlocks. Going to condi virtuoso, which is generally the preferred version, requires at least unlocking Jagged Mind and that's 15 unlocks.

For Mirage, the trait you really want is Infinite Horizon, which is 12 unlocks in. Running with Elusive Mind (7 unlocks in) is still better than no GM trait at all, though.

For Chronomancer, you don't even get to play with a full trait set until Stretched Time, 15 unlocks in. That's not simply a case of having a suboptimal choice in the slot, it's having nothing at all - while the others are at least somewhat functional well before then. 

While hero trains exist, I don't think it's a given that a casual player is necessarily going to hop on them, or know where and when to be on to join one. Heck, the fact that the OP is asking already implies that the OP hasn't just hopped on a few trains and already unlocked everything. If someone is using HP trains to quickly get all their hero points, then clearly the unlock order is less of a consideration. But I think it is something that's useful to be aware of when making decisions - the player can then decide whether it's important to them.

9 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

As for your second point… I’d argue that depends on if they leveled the mesmer to 80 or boosted… if you leveled to 80 as mesmer then transitioning from core to Chrono is by far the most intuitive since you only actually have one new thing to learn, how to properly time Continuum Split… everythinng else is exactly the same as what you’ve been playing from 1-80… The chronomancer’s Shatter skills are all just slightly buffed versions of core Shatters even. Split Second is just Mind Wrack with a second strike. Rewinder is just Cry of Frustration with a cooldown reduction. Time Sink is Diversion with added Slow.

If you boosted and have never leveled a mesmer before then Virtuoso might be better since the lack of clones makes it feel like any other class… the reason I say its not the most casual friendly though, is because if you did level to 80 (casual players tend to do this more often than not) you have to train yourself to not expect clones to distract enemies anymore, ontop of learning all new shatters. Its harder to learn a new playstyle than to just learn one new skill.

As for Mirage… I honestly love that mirage can get away with not shattering their clones… I actually wish they would have leaned more into this with the espec design too… Mirage Axe was designed around keeping 3 clones out at all times and even lets you redirect them to new enemies to keep them from shattering, Ambushes encourage you to not shatter your clones, the lack of unique shatters even implies the espec wasn’t designed to use shatters (though they should have replaced shatters with something else)… the espec had so much wasted potential… the issue with mirage for casual play though is the complexity of its mirage cloak and mirage mirrors mechanics… the Ambush skills are easy enough to learn, but balancing use if mirage cloak and mirrors to keep those ambushes rolling while not accidentally getting yourself killed takes some learning.

I think @Roadkizzle.2157 makes a very valid point in response to this: Core Tyria is easy. I got through core Tyria within the first few months of release without really learning to use shatters, for instance (granted, this was with old phantasms that disincentivised shatter usage unless you're ready to resummon), and things have only been powercrept since. Short of soloing group events (and, admittedly, clones are good for distracting champions), it's not until expansion content that things start to require really learning your build.

Virtuoso does remove the benefit of clone distraction... but if built for it, it has the tools to survive. Surviving on a virtuoso doesn't really feel all that different to surviving on other ranged-focused builds.

Mirage, meanwhile, does still have clones, and while there's a bit of complexity when it comes to getting the most out of it... but for casual play, you don't need to. I'd also contest the "mirage is designed to not use shatters" thing - instead, it's pretty much going back to launch mesmer where you want you use your shatter just before you're about to refresh your clones anyway. Bring Deceptive Evasion and you're always going to have at least one clone to Infinite Horizon with, and will probably have an excess of clones in general.

[Panda.1967]

On 11/9/2023 at 3:21 PM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

When did you start playing GW2?

 

I started playing 1 year ago.

I’ve been playing since beta. I’m probably one of the most casual players you’ll ever meet too. Heck I only just finished the collections for the SotO skyscale unlocks last night…

On 11/9/2023 at 3:21 PM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The core game is so easy you don't use any mechanics on the classes. 

 

As long as you maintain equipment at your level it's much easier just to kill everything with a few Greatsword attacks.

The enemies in core open world maps die too quickly to consider whether to shatter or use clones as distractions.

are class mechanics needed in core tyria? No… but people use them anyways… also… it depends on what content you do in core Tyria too… most of the core game was designed with the understanding that people will have a mix-match of stats on their gear while leveling, so most content is typically easier… but some pieces of core Tyria content were designed to be a challenge with suboptimal gear, and some content in core Tyria was made and balanced for lv80s with optimized gear during various LW and expansion updates (mostly LW1 events that litter core Tyria zones)

Today, unlike when I was leveling up my mesmer, core tyria has challenges that a low level character will need to use all tools at their disposal to survive unless some overstatted level 80s come by and kill everything in 10 seconds even with their levels scaled way down. And maintaining equipment at your level… thats one of the things about leveling… you’re constantly out leveling your gear and replacing it… you almost never have a full set of gear at your level. Often times you’re lucky to even have a weapon within 5 levels of you. I recently leveled 8 alts from 1-80 and 5 of them were stuck with the same weapon from around level 52 all the way to around level 76 when I finally got a higher level version of my chosen weapons… RNG can be cruel… in a perfect world you’d be right, but the world isn’t perfect and despite how easy core tyria is, new casual players will still have to learn mechanics as they level.

Edited January 8 by Panda.1967
Typos

[Mevelios.4809]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

While hero trains exist, I don't think it's a given that a casual player is necessarily going to hop on them, or know where and when to be on to join one. Heck, the fact that the OP is asking already implies that the OP hasn't just hopped on a few trains and already unlocked everything.

Well, here's something I've learned; never noticed HP trains were a thing!

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'd also contest the "mirage is designed to not use shatters" thing - instead, it's pretty much going back to launch mesmer where you want you use your shatter just before you're about to refresh your clones anyway. Bring Deceptive Evasion and you're always going to have at least one clone to Infinite Horizon with, and will probably have an excess of clones in general.

Mirage being my favorite e-spec, I have to contest that idea too. Between dueling's Deceptive evasion and mirage's Self-deception, you definitely can't lack them.

Power builds can shatter them away blindly, the only exception being sword clones for the sake of building vulnerability stacks or ripping boons. Still, the very sword ambush generates a clone too.

Condi builds may largely benefit from Infinite horizon but they also have quite some leeway in shattering. If using the scepter, you just can't lack them - two clones on a successful block (or one if casting its counterspell), one on each complete auto-attack chain; the staff's in a good place too with the retreat and both warlocks. The axe comes last despite lingering thoughts' low CD. The only build that may feel the most restricted on shatters relies on chaos & illusion specs (as such, likely to wield chaos' staff) when using Riddle of sand instead of self-deception, but such is the cost of pursuing at all costs more stacks of confusion without minding the shatter fodder; if we had it all on that particular build, it wouldn't be worth considering any other option!

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 11/10/2023 at 6:08 AM, Mevelios.4809 said:

Well, here's something I've learned; never noticed HP trains were a thing!

 

HP trains do exist but I think they're really more of a thing for veteran players leveling alts and don't really work well for new players.

 

Every HP train I've seen it's hard to keep up with the group even with the Springer and the new players are ill suited to keep up.

[Twilightmage.8309]

Yeah having been a new player to mesmer when EOD came out, virtuoso's healing from condis does not hold up in harder content imo. Having tried mirage more, clones are soooo much better at distracting enemies, your dodges still let you act normally, some skills and traits drop mirrors to pickup that give you the dodge effect, and you get damage from dodging so you will just be iframed more often in general. It was a night and day difference how much tankier clones made me for solo content.

[taara.3217]

On 11/6/2023 at 3:04 PM, Blur.3465 said:

Instead of spending gold on celestial / trailblazer, you can instantly go with Viper

Instead of spending gold on celestial / trailblazer / viper, you can instantly go with Dire

[Roadkizzle.2157]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:52 AM, Twilightmage.8309 said:

Yeah having been a new player to mesmer when EOD came out, virtuoso's healing from condis does not hold up in harder content imo. Having tried mirage more, clones are soooo much better at distracting enemies, your dodges still let you act normally, some skills and traits drop mirrors to pickup that give you the dodge effect, and you get damage from dodging so you will just be iframed more often in general. It was a night and day difference how much tankier clones made me for solo content.

Honestly during a normal fight the healing from conditions isn't enough to feel like I'm much tougher...

But it seemed to help me out noticably... When I started getting pummelled and are afraid of dying I make use of the long range of the spec and start kiting. That gives me breathing room and time for the condis to regen my health.

 

When I'm on my Chronomancer that doesn't work because it doesn't get passive heals like that.

 

I just stay almost dead and die as soon.

[Twilightmage.8309]

Can't say I've played Chrono, I was talking about mirage vs virt in my own experience.

Mirage spends a ton of time in I frames, and that and clones just feel safer than virt healing imo because not getting hit reduces all damage while life stealing through stuff just mitigates some of it.

Kiting also isn't always an option without pulling extra stuff or just not having the room. I never claimed to be an expert though so personal experience can vary.

[Kayemzee.3845]

On 11/6/2023 at 7:46 PM, Mevelios.4809 said:

Since it's my favorite e-spec, I'm pretty confident I can disambiguate a few things about it:

• Mirage cloak is an offensive tool first to make use of ambush attacks, then with some experience it serves at the same time as a counterattack indeed. Still, you can simply use it as an offensive tool; ambushes vary depending the weapon and give each of them an identity.
• Sword is the melee counterattacker, but covers more than that - a tool of survival, a great clone summoning ability, and the boon bane. You can pump out a lot of shatter fodder that also builds up vulnerability stacks and rip boons from their targets; you can add an extra dodge ability; you can trigger every interrupt ability in your arsenal. My favorite! Mirage mantle pushes the boon ripping farther but I don't find any use for it in PvE thanks to the clones - I find Desert distortion to be more useful.
• Dagger is the ranged version of the counterattacker, but hits like a truck. You trade several of the options above to deal heavy direct damages that pierce, while retaining the daze on its ambush to again trigger any interrupt ability you may have. Unlike virtuoso, it can't be relied on as a condi weapon; mirage mantle provides three extra vulnerability stacks on it, which I find so-so considering there already are the stacks from the interrupts. I'd rather use desert distortion to pull off more ambush attacks.
• Greatsword is rather straightforward - direct damages, end of it. Might & vulnerability stacks to be pulled off from its ambush for self-buffing. Mirage cloak here only works as an offensive tool to pull off the ambush attack as often as possible, which is further reinforced by mirage mantle.
• Axe works similarly to the historical dueling spec+pistol offhand; a mix of direct & condi damages. Lots of finishers from it and a solid clone summoning; part of the faster-paced weapons that also offers some survivability like the sword (axes of symmetry against blurred frenzy). Mirage mantle is utterly useless in PvE on it.
• Scepter is a brute when you're the target of attacks, but falls a bit short without enemy attention. Mixes direct & condi damages too at range with a huge potential at generating clones (especially from its counter, the autoattack contributes too). But kitten, it's slow! Fully focused on channeling attacks, though mirage mantle gives quickness on ambush to make it act faster.
• Finally the staff - the most passive of them, since almost everything relies on its autoattack & ambush. Buffing potential, full focus on condi damages while offering both an ethereal field & finishers. Mirage mantle pushes farther the buffing with alacrity, but takes some careful positioning to be consistent.

Desert distortion turns our shatter 4 into an offensive ability, against mirage mantle for some more-or-less handy uses; Dune cloak works well on power builds to rip off boons regardless of the weapon used so the domination spec works its magic, whereas condi builds will favor Infinite horizon; Self-deception will pump out much needed clones, against Riddle of sand which I, uh, personally can't care less about since it's a condi trait when I'd rather bring more clones to cast their ambushes with me on such builds.

IMO, it's the most proactive gameplay. Easy to start with, harder to master to find the survivability the e-spec is known for; the effort is worth the reward, despite part of its numbers being hard to evaluate - counters mean facing an active target, not some idle golem. It's mobile and doesn't let up the pressure on its targets, it lets you choose between timing a counter or just going fully on the offensive, and ambushes give more depth to mainhand weapons to further refine your play style; but I'm biased, this is what I enjoy the most since PoF!

I play something similar with zerker gear and weapons and marauder accessories ..and its been a blast. Dagger/Sword with GS. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Kayemzee.3845