Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Eekasqueak.7850]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

So you ask a question, then refuse to acknowledge any answer. What is the point of this thread. You ask how Orr could have lost, we've given options. Instead of having any discussion you've accused the lore of being wrong about Orr losing.

They don't want answers just affirmation it seems. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also the Scepter of Orr went missing might also be their work.

It's very firmly established that the Scepter of Orr is psuedo-sapient and teleported itself out of danger both before the Cataclysm and when Abaddon's Mouth erupted.

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

They don't want answers just affirmation it seems. 

Which sucks, as recently playing total war warhammer and such, applying military formations and ideas to Guild Wars is a fun thing to ponder on for me. 

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's very firmly established that the Scepter of Orr is psuedo-sapient and teleported itself out of danger both before the Cataclysm and when Abaddon's Mouth erupted.

Yeah, the Scepter was gone before the Charr even attacked. Maybe it "felt" the spells Vizier was preparing to use? Livia mentions voices/it speaking (though we don't hear any of that in wizards tower).

[Slowpokeking.8720]

18 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

So you ask a question, then refuse to acknowledge any answer. What is the point of this thread. You ask how Orr could have lost, we've given options. Instead of having any discussion you've accused the lore of being wrong about Orr losing.

Because your answer didn't make sense.

How was that invincible? You obviously refuse to accept that lore writers can make inconsistent stories.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It's very firmly established that the Scepter of Orr is psuedo-sapient and teleported itself out of danger both before the Cataclysm and when Abaddon's Mouth erupted.

It didn't teleport until the Lich was defeated.

Terrible horrors were unleashed upon the lands once guarded by their benevolent power.

It has such power, shouldn't be hard to stop the Cataclysm spell.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Which sucks, as recently playing total war warhammer and such, applying military formations and ideas to Guild Wars is a fun thing to ponder on for me. 

Yeah, the Scepter was gone before the Charr even attacked. Maybe it "felt" the spells Vizier was preparing to use? Livia mentions voices/it speaking (though we don't hear any of that in wizards tower).

We saw the Scepter didn't teleport until the last moment in the end of the story. I don't think it would go much earlier.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

44 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It didn't teleport until the Lich was defeated.

Terrible horrors were unleashed upon the lands once guarded by their benevolent power.

It has such power, shouldn't be hard to stop the Cataclysm spell.

Ah, so you think someone just snuck it away Orr from the no-warning Cataclysm and hid it deep in a crypt adjacent to the Krytan royal crypt, but it was still in Orr while the charr attacked. So they managed to get it out at the very last moment with zero warning of Orr's destruction. But also no Orrians survived according to you earlier, as well. So that means you think a non-Orrian took it out of Orr before the Cataclysm after the charr invaded, and hid it in Kryta. Who do you think did it then, Khilbron? He was the only one who knew of the Cataclysm beforehand.

Yeah, doubtful.

However, double checking Prophecies dialogue:

The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr. Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya

So I was misremembering that it teleported out of Orr before the Cataclysm (something we wouldn't have seen), but all your original arguments of "Orr had the Scepter of Orr that would decimate the charr army and its magic" is null because it wasn't there. In the year long timespan between the Searing and the Cataclysm, someone or something took the Scepter of Orr and hid it away in Kryta.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:12 PM, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Because your answer didn't make sense.

How was that invincible? You obviously refuse to accept that lore writers can make inconsistent stories.

Your points only make sense if Orr is at full combat readiness 100% of the time with all the rituals and relics ready for use in battle at all times.

This doesn't make sense for an explicitly described "Mostly peaceful" nation.

Lore can sometime be inconsistent. This isn't that case. You are describing Orr as if they have everything ready to go for battle. Vs say, maybe being in a false sense of security because Vizier had been openly known among many groups in Orr to have a spell that would wipe the Charr out, he just had to have some time to fully prepare it. Which we see in Jahai's time-bubbles, the Orrian military did hold around the tower and kept the Charr at bay long enough for him to do so.

 

Hell with it, I'll go ahead and make a RL comparison before he returns and is all confused again.

WW2. France had one of, if not the strongest standing Militaries of the world at the start of it. They lost, hard, and fairly fast. Because of certain doctrine and leadership failings from the top that translated into the individual units not working as well as they should or not having the resources they needed.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Your points only make sense if Orr is at full combat readiness 100% of the time with all the rituals and relics ready for use in battle at all times.

This doesn't make sense for an explicitly described "Mostly peaceful" nation.

Lore can sometime be inconsistent. This isn't that case. You are describing Orr as if they have everything ready to go for battle. Vs say, maybe being in a false sense of security because Vizier had been openly known among many groups in Orr to have a spell that would wipe the Charr out, he just had to have some time to fully prepare it. Which we see in Jahai's time-bubbles, the Orrian military did hold around the tower and kept the Charr at bay long enough for him to do so.

 

Hell with it, I'll go ahead and make a RL comparison before he returns and is all confused again.

WW2. France had one of, if not the strongest standing Militaries of the world at the start of it. They lost, hard, and fairly fast. Because of certain doctrine and leadership failings from the top that translated into the individual units not working as well as they should or not having the resources they needed.

No they don't have to be 100% prepared. But we knew that they got more time than Ascalon, and their king didn't run away.

Ascalon wasn't prepared, the Charr used Searing and they held for decades.

Kryta was in a worse shape and they kicked the charr's kitten.

Germany took other nations quickly as well, other than the ones who were stronger than France. But the charr got their kitten kicked in Kryta and couldn't take down Ascalon for decades.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/10/2023 at 11:59 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ah, so you think someone just snuck it away Orr from the no-warning Cataclysm and hid it deep in a crypt adjacent to the Krytan royal crypt, but it was still in Orr while the charr attacked. So they managed to get it out at the very last moment with zero warning of Orr's destruction. But also no Orrians survived according to you earlier, as well. So that means you think a non-Orrian took it out of Orr before the Cataclysm after the charr invaded, and hid it in Kryta. Who do you think did it then, Khilbron? He was the only one who knew of the Cataclysm beforehand.

Yeah, doubtful.

However, double checking Prophecies dialogue:

The scepter was lost somewhere between when the Charr attacked Ascalon and when they reached the borders of Orr. Those who knew of its whereabouts were all killed in the Cataclysm.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya

So I was misremembering that it teleported out of Orr before the Cataclysm (something we wouldn't have seen), but all your original arguments of "Orr had the Scepter of Orr that would decimate the charr army and its magic" is null because it wasn't there. In the year long timespan between the Searing and the Cataclysm, someone or something took the Scepter of Orr and hid it away in Kryta.

Since Abaddon's minions could infiltrate into such high rank, I don't see it not reasonable.

[Kalavier.1097]

47 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

No they don't have to be 100% prepared. But we knew that they got more time than Ascalon, and their king didn't run away.

Ascalon wasn't prepared, the Charr used Searing and they held for decades.

Kryta was in a worse shape and they kicked the charr's kitten.

Germany took other nations quickly as well, other than the ones who were stronger than France. But the charr got their kitten kicked in Kryta and couldn't take down Ascalon for decades.

And you still completely miss the point and how war isn't so cleanly decided.

Ascalon was prepared, quite literally it was the most prepared of all of them due to constant and eternal war with the charr and they were actively training new soldiers and adventurers specifically in how to fight the charr, among other things. It's walls (Great Northern Wall, and city walls) held the Charr at bay, forcing them into chokepoints that could be easily defended. Even after the Searing broke the wall, the Charr held a limited presence to the south, as they had narrow breaches they could use to get through. THIS IS WHY ASCALON LASTED DECADES. They were stubborn as hell, DEFENSIVE SIEGE SPECIALISTS. This is why Ebonhawke survived 200+ years of siege and built itself up to the point it did. This is what Ascalonian people thrive at doing. They hold the ground. You keep bringing Ascalon up as if it doesn't have major defensive structures that are so tough, they STILL STAND. And the Iron Legion uses the breaches as roads as opposed to destroying the thing because it's not worth the resources it'd take to destroy it!

Kryta had the fledgling White Mantle kill the leadership of the Charr army there, and the Mursaat arrived to help scatter the warbands that came after Saul. The Charr presence in Kryta was limited due to crossing the shiverpeaks, and their leadership being wiped out caused the rest to scatter. This is literally what is told in the Rise of the White Mantle instance. The bulk of the Charr army wasn't destroyed, it was sent into a confused retreat and scattering as the leadership was wiped out.

Orr marched an army out to face the Charr, viewing them as weakened and tired after Ascalon, knowing Vizier was preparing a spell that could defeat the Charr army in a single blow. The Priests were all in the temples (explicitly known). The King was in Arah, and the only artifact we explicitly know to be present (scepter of Orr) was actually gone before the Charr even reached the borders of Orr. The army fought the Charr, and the main force was routed or destroyed after 12 hours of fighting. 12 hours, of brutal frontline fighting against the Charr who are A: bigger. B: Stronger. c : a lot more scary looking then the humans. And this was the era where Charr didn't have issues eating humans either, so you may have had troops seeing chunks torn from their fellows. GW2 shows us the entire Orrian military wasn't destroyed, as elements were still present at the Vizier's tower defending it until the spell was cast. The Main force broke, and the Charr rampaged inland because there wasn't time to send out warnings that the Army was broken. 

 

Orr lacks several things. A: it lacks any major defensive structures or fortifications that would blockade the Charr advance. B: it didn't have the chance to sneak-attack the Charr and kill their leadership. C : fighting a charr army on open ground is advantageous to the Charr, not the humans. D : Vizier is also corrupted by Abaddon. As you put it, who is to say others didn't encourage certain things to be more lax? Convince the army soldiers the war was won, they just had to hold the line briefly and watch the fireworks. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Since Abaddon's minions could infiltrate into such high rank, I don't see it not reasonable.

So you genuinely believe that Abaddon's minions not only decided to blow up Orr as an inside job but also took the Scepter of Orr away at the last minute after King Reza was fully capable of decimating the charr army with the Scepter of Orr, just so that the aforementioned Abaddon's minion that blew up Orr would have to spend over a year searching for where the Scepter of Orr vanished off to, in order to fulfill Abaddon's plan of opening the Door of Komalie?

That is an asinine amount of crazy hoop jumping that not even Barnum & Bailey Circus performers would be capable of doing.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So you genuinely believe that Abaddon's minions not only decided to blow up Orr as an inside job but also took the Scepter of Orr away at the last minute after King Reza was fully capable of decimating the charr army with the Scepter of Orr, just so that the aforementioned Abaddon's minion that blew up Orr would have to spend over a year searching for where the Scepter of Orr vanished off to, in order to fulfill Abaddon's plan of opening the Door of Komalie?

That is an asinine amount of crazy hoop jumping that not even Barnum & Bailey Circus performers would be capable of doing.

Don't forget that Abaddon's minions could steal the scepter of Orr just so Vizier would have to cast the Cataclysm spell, but couldn't at all possibly be involved with perhaps sabotaging the army in any way shape or form. 

If we went with that logic he's putting out.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So you genuinely believe that Abaddon's minions not only decided to blow up Orr as an inside job but also took the Scepter of Orr away at the last minute after King Reza was fully capable of decimating the charr army with the Scepter of Orr, just so that the aforementioned Abaddon's minion that blew up Orr would have to spend over a year searching for where the Scepter of Orr vanished off to, in order to fulfill Abaddon's plan of opening the Door of Komalie?

That is an asinine amount of crazy hoop jumping that not even Barnum & Bailey Circus performers would be capable of doing.

Yes,  to ensure Arah is being destroyed.

The scepter probably teleported itself away later.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:49 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

And you still completely miss the point and how war isn't so cleanly decided.

Ascalon was prepared, quite literally it was the most prepared of all of them due to constant and eternal war with the charr and they were actively training new soldiers and adventurers specifically in how to fight the charr, among other things. It's walls (Great Northern Wall, and city walls) held the Charr at bay, forcing them into chokepoints that could be easily defended. Even after the Searing broke the wall, the Charr held a limited presence to the south, as they had narrow breaches they could use to get through. THIS IS WHY ASCALON LASTED DECADES. They were stubborn as hell, DEFENSIVE SIEGE SPECIALISTS. This is why Ebonhawke survived 200+ years of siege and built itself up to the point it did. This is what Ascalonian people thrive at doing. They hold the ground. You keep bringing Ascalon up as if it doesn't have major defensive structures that are so tough, they STILL STAND. And the Iron Legion uses the breaches as roads as opposed to destroying the thing because it's not worth the resources it'd take to destroy it!

Kryta had the fledgling White Mantle kill the leadership of the Charr army there, and the Mursaat arrived to help scatter the warbands that came after Saul. The Charr presence in Kryta was limited due to crossing the shiverpeaks, and their leadership being wiped out caused the rest to scatter. This is literally what is told in the Rise of the White Mantle instance. The bulk of the Charr army wasn't destroyed, it was sent into a confused retreat and scattering as the leadership was wiped out.

Orr marched an army out to face the Charr, viewing them as weakened and tired after Ascalon, knowing Vizier was preparing a spell that could defeat the Charr army in a single blow. The Priests were all in the temples (explicitly known). The King was in Arah, and the only artifact we explicitly know to be present (scepter of Orr) was actually gone before the Charr even reached the borders of Orr. The army fought the Charr, and the main force was routed or destroyed after 12 hours of fighting. 12 hours, of brutal frontline fighting against the Charr who are A: bigger. B: Stronger. c : a lot more scary looking then the humans. And this was the era where Charr didn't have issues eating humans either, so you may have had troops seeing chunks torn from their fellows. GW2 shows us the entire Orrian military wasn't destroyed, as elements were still present at the Vizier's tower defending it until the spell was cast. The Main force broke, and the Charr rampaged inland because there wasn't time to send out warnings that the Army was broken. 

 

 

Ascalon was not prepared.

 

Quote

 

Anyone alive today will remember the day the lands of Ascalon were blasted and torn with magic fire. Whole cities and guilds were destroyed in the Searing, and the might of Ascalon was shattered. Now the Great Northern Wall lies broken, and the Charr have overrun much of the kingdom, defiling it with their unholy shrines, killing those who stand in their way.

The survival of Ascalon hinges on but a single remaining corner of the fallen kingdom—the capital city of Rin. In the final years of the last Guild War, the people of Rin looked to a soldier named Adelbern, a simple man of humble origins, who rallied the people with his courage and cunning and steeled them not only against the guilds of Orr and Kryta but also against the terrors of the Charr.

The sudden destruction of most of the kingdom during the Searing has taken much of the fight out of the man now known as King Adelbern. He has become stubborn and set in his ways, afraid of losing what little he has left. But in his son Rurik, the people see a leader with the courage to perhaps help them reclaim their fallen kingdom.

 

 

The whole Searing as a big surprise attack, they didn't know anything and lost many of their guilds/cities. Where did you get your impression?

The Charr held a limited presence to the south? Then their strength in Orr should be even weaker, didn't you just contradicted yourself? They have deep water trench around their nation, which makes it even easier to defend.

Did you even play the Rise of White Mantle?

The order was given, and the charr quickly reassembled.

Quote

 

As Ascalon burned, the Charr invaded the nation of Kryta. Their army marched through the Far Shiverpeaks and fell upon Kryta like lions upon a kill.

Their success was short-lived, for their battle raised an alarm among the other Charr. Bloodthirsty Charr sought revenge.

The Unseen Ones descended on the encampment, repelling wave after wave of invaders. The Charr invasion failed that day, and the surviving Charr fled back beyond the Shiverpeaks.

 

Nowhere said Charr were limited or the majority wasn't killed. Also Orr was under the Shiverpeaks as well.

 

Orr had seen the Searing, had time to reassemble and prepare, to use their army, they got all the magic users and the source. They are 10 times more prepared than Ascalon, who had no time to react and got the Searing, or the White Mantle, which was assembled in short time during invasion.

Vizier's spell was after the army was defeated.

Yeah charr are bigger, stronger, a lot more scary looking and they couldn't even take down Ascalon for decades after the surprise Searing and Kryta. Do you even think about what you have said?

 

Quote

Orr lacks several things. A: it lacks any major defensive structures or fortifications that would blockade the Charr advance. B: it didn't have the chance to sneak-attack the Charr and kill their leadership. C : fighting a charr army on open ground is advantageous to the Charr, not the humans. D : Vizier is also corrupted by Abaddon. As you put it, who is to say others didn't encourage certain things to be more lax? Convince the army soldiers the war was won, they just had to hold the line briefly and watch the fireworks. 

A. North Wall was destroyed by the Searing. Orr is also under Shiverpeaks, with narrow breaches to the South, took a long way for the charr to get through. It has trench all around Arah. It actually has the best defense landshape among the 3 nations against Charr attack.

B.Yeah, they got Lyssa's priests of great illusion magic but couldn't make any surprise attack, how bad!

C.Why? When you got uber magic to help them. We saw both corruption and cleansing magic could spread over the continent.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

https://www.ign.com/wikis/guild-wars-2/Universe

This is the map of Tyria in GW2, we can see that Orr is also under Shiverpeaks, with narrow breaches to the South, along with ocean trench all around it. It actually has the best defense landshape among the 3 nations.

Realistically, they would have to occupy much of Ascalon and set up supply line before being able to attack Orr.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Yes,  to ensure Arah is being destroyed.

The scepter probably teleported itself away later.

But you just said:

On 12/10/2023 at 2:18 PM, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It didn't teleport until the Lich was defeated.

Terrible horrors were unleashed upon the lands once guarded by their benevolent power.

It has such power, shouldn't be hard to stop the Cataclysm spell.

So... What? You're actively contradicting yourself the very next day.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But you just said:

So... What? You're actively contradicting yourself the very next day.

I was saying that it might teleported away after being stolen by Abaddon's minions. Not when it was under Reza's control.

Also the demon had not worked with the Lich, but thought he had fooled him. So not all Abaddon's minions have shared information.

Quote

Just as simply as I used that foolish Vizier to wipe Orr from this world, I will use this vessel to eliminate you!"

It's entirely possible that the Lich didn't know other Abaddon's minions' doing.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Nabbut.7480]

I think the answer is very simple. The Orrians relied on spiritual muscles instead of physical ones, and Charr just ripped those out with a flick of their mind then easily beaten much weakened Orrian troops.

[Kalavier.1097]

17 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Ascalon was not prepared.

The whole Searing as a big surprise attack, they didn't know anything and lost many of their guilds/cities. Where did you get your impression?

The Charr held a limited presence to the south? Then their strength in Orr should be even weaker, didn't you just contradicted yourself? They have deep water trench around their nation, which makes it even easier to defend.

Not for the Nuke, but for war with the Charr and holding their walls. You act as if it's completely baffling that Orr's army lost but Ascalon didn't, and then completely ignore all the fats.

It's almost as if the Charr who got through the wall were the ones who blitzed south into Orr. So the ones who actively fought Ascalonians got tied up around the forts.

17 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Did you even play the Rise of White Mantle?

The order was given, and the charr quickly reassembled.

Nowhere said Charr were limited or the majority wasn't killed. Also Orr was under the Shiverpeaks as well.

Ah yes. So the Mighty Charr army that was entirely killed was 115ish Charr. If we want to be so literal toward the ingame event. 115ish Charr threatened all of Kryta with destruction!

17 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Orr had seen the Searing, had time to reassemble and prepare, to use their army, they got all the magic users and the source. They are 10 times more prepared than Ascalon, who had no time to react and got the Searing, or the White Mantle, which was assembled in short time during invasion.

Vizier's spell was after the army was defeated.

Yeah charr are bigger, stronger, a lot more scary looking and they couldn't even take down Ascalon for decades after the surprise Searing and Kryta. Do you even think about what you have said?

Orr knew Ascalon fell, but they were invaded shortly after. The invasions of Kryta and Orr happened very soon after the searing. Looking at the history of Tyria. 

"Eventually, as all things do, the wars did come to an end. But it was not the words of the silver-tongued peace negotiators or even the rough hand of a conquering hero that ended the Guild Wars. The resolution was instead brought about by an even greater war—a war brought by the Charr. In unprecedented numbers, the beasts from the north swept down through all three human kingdoms. Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta, embroiled in conflict with one another for more than fifty years, dropped their grudges and turned their attentions to defending their borders against the new threat.

Each kingdom dealt with the invasion in a different way. Ascalon stood their ground, having no place else to turn. Though their forces were depleted, they managed to rally behind the Great Northern Wall. But their defense was short lived. In a magical battle that would eventually be looked upon as the turning point for Ascalon (now referred to as the Searing), the Charr brought down fire and brimstone, destroying everything on the open plain for hundreds of miles. Their magic scorched the ground and the human cities as they swept through the Wall and moved on to Orr. The surviving humans of Ascalon have since retaken the wall and have held it against periodic attacks, but there is little left of this once-prosperous empire.

Orr was another story. To stop the invading army, the King of Orr’s personal advisor and sage turned to the powers of dark magic. Venturing into the vaults far below the marble streets of Arah, he unrolled a forbidden scroll and read the words he found printed there. The resulting explosion sank the entire peninsula and sent enough dirt into the air to blot out the sun for a hundred days. Though the Charr never reached the hallowed streets of Arah, nearly every citizen of Orr was killed that day.

Unable to keep the Charr out, and lacking magic powerful enough to push them back, Kryta turned to a man named Saul D'Alessio and his promises of unseen gods coming to aid in the war. Whether it was luck or truly the invisible hands of some new gods, Kryta managed to push back the Charr invasion, banishing the northern beasts back from whence they came."

So yes, the guild wars ended and the guilds returned, but when the Searing happened, Orr was invaded very shortly afterwards. Every version of the history describes the ending of the guild wars as taking place after the Searing, or shortly before it.

Orr never had time to completely prepare a defense, and the source of Orr doesn't do anything to empower magic users. There is zero evidence of that. They have spellcasters, but we don't know how many are combat trained. Vizier cast the spell from his tower, and we know some military (all martial, with zero spellcasters among their unit) defended the tower. 

I honestly believe you have an inability to read, as you once again completely ignore the giant wall that Ascalon used to hold the line. A thing completely absent in Orr. And Ascalonians knew more about Charr then the other nations. You clearly do not understand how warfare works.

18 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

A. North Wall was destroyed by the Searing. Orr is also under Shiverpeaks, with narrow breaches to the South, took a long way for the charr to get through. It has trench all around Arah. It actually has the best defense landshape among the 3 nations against Charr attack.

B.Yeah, they got Lyssa's priests of great illusion magic but couldn't make any surprise attack, how bad!

C.Why? When you got uber magic to help them. We saw both corruption and cleansing magic could spread over the continent.

The great Northern wall was so destroyed, it's remains still stand 250+ years later in much the exact same condition as they were after the Searing. Orr is below the shiverpeaks, but you also ignore the massive land-connection it has by Crystal desert. While yes, there is a narrow strand where the Vizier's tower is (and we see Searing cauldrens there in ruins in the water, indicating the area was above water once), the bulk of the fighting could've taken place on the huge land-bridge.  https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg 

You again, seem to think that all priests are part of the armies. The priests were in their respective god temples. 

You also seem to be applying completely fanfiction abilities to the Source of Orr as if it was able to be weaponized, as opposed to basically being one of the major water-sources for the land running both water and magic throughout orr. Which the water and magic were both corrupted by Zhaitan. And even after it was cleansed, Orr wasn't cleansed of Zhaitan's corruption many years later. 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Not for the Nuke, but for war with the Charr and holding their walls. You act as if it's completely baffling that Orr's army lost but Ascalon didn't, and then completely ignore all the fats.

It's almost as if the Charr who got through the wall were the ones who blitzed south into Orr. So the ones who actively fought Ascalonians got tied up around the forts.

Ah yes. So the Mighty Charr army that was entirely killed was 115ish Charr. If we want to be so literal toward the ingame event. 115ish Charr threatened all of Kryta with destruction!

Orr knew Ascalon fell, but they were invaded shortly after. The invasions of Kryta and Orr happened very soon after the searing. Looking at the history of Tyria. 

"Eventually, as all things do, the wars did come to an end. But it was not the words of the silver-tongued peace negotiators or even the rough hand of a conquering hero that ended the Guild Wars. The resolution was instead brought about by an even greater war—a war brought by the Charr. In unprecedented numbers, the beasts from the north swept down through all three human kingdoms. Ascalon, Orr, and Kryta, embroiled in conflict with one another for more than fifty years, dropped their grudges and turned their attentions to defending their borders against the new threat.

Each kingdom dealt with the invasion in a different way. Ascalon stood their ground, having no place else to turn. Though their forces were depleted, they managed to rally behind the Great Northern Wall. But their defense was short lived. In a magical battle that would eventually be looked upon as the turning point for Ascalon (now referred to as the Searing), the Charr brought down fire and brimstone, destroying everything on the open plain for hundreds of miles. Their magic scorched the ground and the human cities as they swept through the Wall and moved on to Orr. The surviving humans of Ascalon have since retaken the wall and have held it against periodic attacks, but there is little left of this once-prosperous empire.

Orr was another story. To stop the invading army, the King of Orr’s personal advisor and sage turned to the powers of dark magic. Venturing into the vaults far below the marble streets of Arah, he unrolled a forbidden scroll and read the words he found printed there. The resulting explosion sank the entire peninsula and sent enough dirt into the air to blot out the sun for a hundred days. Though the Charr never reached the hallowed streets of Arah, nearly every citizen of Orr was killed that day.

Unable to keep the Charr out, and lacking magic powerful enough to push them back, Kryta turned to a man named Saul D'Alessio and his promises of unseen gods coming to aid in the war. Whether it was luck or truly the invisible hands of some new gods, Kryta managed to push back the Charr invasion, banishing the northern beasts back from whence they came."

So yes, the guild wars ended and the guilds returned, but when the Searing happened, Orr was invaded very shortly afterwards. Every version of the history describes the ending of the guild wars as taking place after the Searing, or shortly before it.

Orr never had time to completely prepare a defense, and the source of Orr doesn't do anything to empower magic users. There is zero evidence of that. They have spellcasters, but we don't know how many are combat trained. Vizier cast the spell from his tower, and we know some military (all martial, with zero spellcasters among their unit) defended the tower. 

I honestly believe you have an inability to read, as you once again completely ignore the giant wall that Ascalon used to hold the line. A thing completely absent in Orr. And Ascalonians knew more about Charr then the other nations. You clearly do not understand how warfare works.

 

The Nuke was the whole thing that changes the game. And Ascalon was NOT aware of the charr making a full scale attack. You are making obvious mistake again.

Orr, on the other hand, had time to react. and the Charr had to go a HUGE WAY to Orr.

Now you are dodging the question now.  You couldn't answer about the invasion of Kryta but to make nonsense reply.

How short? Did you even look at the maps?

To get to Orr, the charr got to

1. Fought a long battle to occupy Ascalon

2. Go through nearly the whole Shiverpeaks, possible through the jungle.

3. Then go through Crystal Desert, to assemble their army. The supply line would be crazy to even think of, one surprise attack and their whole supply would be cut off.

It would take many months or even years to do it. Do you even have idea how long would it take for the charr army to go through such a long distance?

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

Also did Kryta have time? Did Ascalon have time? Orr got the most time compare to them.

Yeah, you, again, chose to ignore that Orr have such landshape defense, and what does Kryta have?

 

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The great Northern wall was so destroyed, it's remains still stand 250+ years later in much the exact same condition as they were after the Searing. Orr is below the shiverpeaks, but you also ignore the massive land-connection it has by Crystal desert. While yes, there is a narrow strand where the Vizier's tower is (and we see Searing cauldrens there in ruins in the water, indicating the area was above water once), the bulk of the fighting could've taken place on the huge land-bridge.  https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0b/Tyria_clean_map_2.jpg 

You again, seem to think that all priests are part of the armies. The priests were in their respective god temples. 

You also seem to be applying completely fanfiction abilities to the Source of Orr as if it was able to be weaponized, as opposed to basically being one of the major water-sources for the land running both water and magic throughout orr. Which the water and magic were both corrupted by Zhaitan. And even after it was cleansed, Orr wasn't cleansed of Zhaitan's corruption many years later. 

Wait, the charr also had to go narrowly to the South to Orr with the remaining part of the Wall, did you even have idea of it?

Yeah yeah yeah, the charr got to go through all the way of nearly the whole shiverpeaks, then go a big turn through the harsh Crystal Desert. They had not yet fully occupied Ascalon, Kryta,  or any of these places. No outpost or city there. Which means they had to spend HUGE effort to send their supply line from their homeland or Ascalon to Orr, which is horrible to think of.

We also know how terrible Crystal Desert's condition is.

Quote

If the legends are true, humans were not among those for whom this land was made. There have been attempts by humans to settle in the desert, but they have, without exception, failed miserably, leaving behind only the grand monuments they built here proclaiming their short-lived triumph over this harsh land.

Which means the charrs cannot set up outpost/occupation there, it couldn't serve as their base. And supply line would even hard to pass through.

So do you even know how ridiculous would their supply line be, and how much time/effort would it take for their army to get through? Just look at the map and you know how terrible it is.

So Orrians are idiots, got their gods' power but had no idea to use them?

Source of Orr was served as a weapon by Zhaitan, to spread corruption and later to cleanse the land, it has the ability to greatly amplify magic like we've seen. We only saw like 2-3 years later and it has already making big effects after 100 years of corruption by Zhaitan. Bad argument here.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/List_of_maps#/media/File:Tyria_unexplored_map.jpg

From this map we could also see that between Ascalon and Crystal Desert, there was the mountains blocking.

It would be a terrible idea to let a whole army, after much fighting to go through the mountains then the dreadful Crystal Desert, especially when Ascalon wasn't even fully occupied yet.

The humans don't have such routes as well. It must be much more harsher the Shiverpeaks route.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It would be a terrible idea to let a whole army, after much fighting to go through the mountains then the dreadful Crystal Desert, especially when Ascalon wasn't even fully occupied yet.

The charr that invaded Orr didn't have to fight through Ascalon. They sent their forces through during the chaos of Ascalonians' panic over the Searing so that they wouldn't need to fight. So the army wasn't tired from fighting when they reached Orr - any exhaustion they may have held was solely from marching. And keep in mind they took a whole year before Orr sank, so it wasn't like they were marching at breakneck speed and never once stopped. Given that Orr fell in less than 12 hours, the charr took a full year to march through Ascalon, the edge of the desert, and onward to Orr.

They basically pulled a Hannible on the Orrians. And we see through our own history how well that worked.

[Kalavier.1097]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The charr that invaded Orr didn't have to fight through Ascalon. They sent their forces through during the chaos of Ascalonians' panic over the Searing so that they wouldn't need to fight. So the army wasn't tired from fighting when they reached Orr - any exhaustion they may have held was solely from marching. And keep in mind they took a whole year before Orr sank, so it wasn't like they were marching at breakneck speed and never once stopped. Given that Orr fell in less than 12 hours, the charr took a full year to march through Ascalon, the edge of the desert, and onward to Orr.

They basically pulled a Hannible on the Orrians. And we see through our own history how well that worked.

I didn't know it was a year between the two, but yeah, they could've skirted along the water and fished for food.

And while they marched, Vizier made it known he had a spell to wipe the Charr out. That heavily affects how things are prepared for. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I didn't know it was a year between the two, but yeah, they could've skirted along the water and fished for food.

And while they marched, Vizier made it known he had a spell to wipe the Charr out. That heavily affects how things are prepared for. 

We got the date of 1071 AE for the Cataclysm happening in the GW2 novels for the first time, before then it was ambiguous how shortly after the Searing that the Cataclysm occurred.

Of course we don't know when in 1070 and 1071 AE the Searing and Cataclysm happened respectively, though it's heavily suggested the Searing was in late summer / early august, so the Cataclysm could have been at the beginning of the year and thus not even 6 months apart.