Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Slowpokeking.8720]

From the Risen, we can see that:

Orr got a lot of fighters and powerful sorcerers, priests, that's even after the Lich animated a lot of undead. The charr couldn't even take down Ascalon after the Searing for so many years.

Why would the charr be able to seize it? I doubt that the Lich or that demon probably sold them from inside.

Also Orr was on a peninsula, I don't see the charr got powerful navy.

 

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

 

So Orr didn't fight much in the Guild Wars, and it was so far from the charr home, they also had time to regroup, and they failed in, 12 hours with that much forces and magic?

Edited November 18, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

28 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

From the Risen, we can see that:

Orr got a lot of fighters and powerful sorcerers, priests, that's even after the Lich animated a lot of undead. The charr couldn't even take down Ascalon after the Searing for so many years.

Why would the charr be able to seize it? I doubt that the Lich or that demon probably sold them from inside.

Also Orr was on a peninsula, I don't see the charr got powerful navy.

 

 

So Orr didn't fight much in the Guild Wars, and it was so far from the charr home, they also had time to regroup, and they failed in, 12 hours with that much forces and magic?

Orr was a highly magical nation with a powerful, but untested army.

They had, IIRC, never actually deployed in direct warfare recently, and were not used to fighting the Charr, just humans if anything.

They also were arrogant as hell, and marched out thinking they were going to win without any trouble. 

 

Combo these details with the Charr forces being vicious in open battlefields, we have the first engagement going badly, which leads into a total rout of their forces. In GW1, the Lich mostly animated the remains of the military forces, while most of the Risen Orrians are civilians. 

In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if they had foolish ideas of the Charr being tired/depleted after going through Ascalon, and thus weren't expecting a fresh, ready to go army.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Kalavier.1097

[Slowpokeking.8720]

7 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Orr was a highly magical nation with a powerful, but untested army.

They had, IIRC, never actually deployed in direct warfare recently, and were not used to fighting the Charr, just humans if anything.

They also were arrogant as hell, and marched out thinking they were going to win without any trouble. 

 

Combo these details with the Charr forces being vicious in open battlefields, we have the first engagement going badly, which leads into a total rout of their forces. In GW1, the Lich mostly animated the remains of the military forces, while most of the Risen Orrians are civilians. 

In addition, I wouldn't be surprised if they had foolish ideas of the Charr being tired/depleted after going through Ascalon, and thus weren't expecting a fresh, ready to go army.

Not really, we can see even the Lich Lord could rise an army to cause trouble to the White Mantles, not to say the majority of Zhaitan's high rank Risen were from Orr.

Quote

But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Kalavier.1097]

13 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Not really, we can see even the Lich Lord could rise an army to cause trouble to the White Mantles, not to say the majority of Zhaitan's high rank Risen were from Orr.

 

The Orrian undead of GW1 are all the military. As undead, that doesn't say how good they were in life or not.

Also, the majority of risen are from Orr. But unlike GW1, you can explicitly see how most risen orrians are just civilians, as the military dead were already taken.

 

And yes, Arah defended itself from the opening fights at Arah, but then the guilds spread outward. The actual army of Orr did not march on the other nations. Unlike Ascalon, which had it's army constantly fighting the Charr so it had experience and practiced forces outside the guilds.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

8 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The Orrian undead of GW1 are all the military. As undead, that doesn't say how good they were in life or not.

Also, the majority of risen are from Orr. But unlike GW1, you can explicitly see how most risen orrians are just civilians, as the military dead were already taken.

 

And yes, Arah defended itself from the opening fights at Arah, but then the guilds spread outward. The actual army of Orr did not march on the other nations. Unlike Ascalon, which had it's army constantly fighting the Charr so it had experience and practiced forces outside the guilds.

If they were not good, why would they cause trouble to the White Mantle ,who was good at divine magic?

Abandoned by their leaders, betrayed by their countrymen, hungry and worn, the people of Kryta flocked to Saul's banner and rallied to his cause.

Saul and his followers saved desperate and defenseless Krytans from the Charr, but there were too many invaders, and Saul's disciples were too few.

Remember Kryta was saved by like a bunch of not really organized ppl plus like 3-5 Mursaat. Orr army would surely be much stronger than these ppl. And even after the Searing and Loric lead a lot of ppl to Kryta, Ascalon still managed to hold that long.

As for the Mursaat, Orr got powerful priests, mesmers, archmages and all kinds of magic. Even those Risen priests could still use their gods' power. I don't see they would not be able to defend themselves, especially when the Charr go to cross that far, which means their supply would be a question.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

plus like 3-5 Mursaat.

That is the important part, reminder we are talking here about beings invisible to charr at all, wielding extremely powerful spectral agony against which charr had no defence.

I highly doubt that Orrian Army could somehow beat that.

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Orr got powerful priests, mesmers, archmages and all kinds of magic.

And none that would rival the killing power of spectral agony. and defensive power of your enemies never having a clue you were even there.

Also an important note to bear in mind: The undisputable facts in here are that the main army of Orr got routed (likely due to wrong assumptions about state and capabilities of charr army coupled with arrogance as Kalavier mentioned), but it is not known if Orr would be able to repell the invasion given time more time. What we know is that one man believed the cause lost enough to unleash ancient forbidden magic in belief that this will save Orr. And that blew the whole peninsula up.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 hour ago, Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

That is the important part, reminder we are talking here about beings invisible to charr at all, wielding extremely powerful spectral agony against which charr had no defence.

I highly doubt that Orrian Army could somehow beat that.

And none that would rival the killing power of spectral agony. and defensive power of your enemies never having a clue you were even there.

Also an important note to bear in mind: The undisputable facts in here are that the main army of Orr got routed (likely due to wrong assumptions about state and capabilities of charr army coupled with arrogance as Kalavier mentioned), but it is not known if Orr would be able to repell the invasion given time more time. What we know is that one man believed the cause lost enough to unleash ancient forbidden magic in belief that this will save Orr. And that blew the whole peninsula up.

How? That's the 5 gods' magic, on the place where the gods gave human help, how is it weaker than Mursaat? We also saw Magdaer, with the 6 gods' a fraction of power,  could unleash Foefire which could match the power of Searing.

Even with Zhaitan's corruption and the gods left(Balthazar was not god anymore), these priests proved to be very powerful figures. There are also many mesmers could play tricks.

Even Saul could hold that long, why wasn't Orr army be able to do so? Ascalon was devastated, and it still held for decades.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Also didn't King Reza have the Scepter of Orr on his hand before Cataclysm. Those Charr's magic source came from the Titans, and they obey the Scepter's will.

Edited November 18, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

From the Risen, we can see that:

Orr got a lot of fighters and powerful sorcerers, priests, that's even after the Lich animated a lot of undead. The charr couldn't even take down Ascalon after the Searing for so many years.

Why would the charr be able to seize it? I doubt that the Lich or that demon probably sold them from inside.

Also Orr was on a peninsula, I don't see the charr got powerful navy.

 

So Orr didn't fight much in the Guild Wars, and it was so far from the charr home, they also had time to regroup, and they failed in, 12 hours with that much forces and magic?

Most Risen fighters were imported from raids or from long dead graves. Most of Orr's army was not in Orr at the time due to the Guild Wars. In addition to what you quoted you have this quest chain in GW1 that helps show the events from the Orrian PoV.

And yes, Khilbron did sell them out from within. Specifically he told them that he had a plan to eradicate the charr, and most Orrians relied on this. As shown in both the GW1 quest above, and a GW2 dialogue:

Wandering Soul: "The Vizier of Orr had a plan. A magic that would kill the Charr..."
Wandering Soul: "No wait! We discovered that the Vizier had been corrupted by the God of Secrets! We found the forbidden books in his quarters! It's coming back to me now."
Wandering Soul: "The Vizier was a traitor! Too late, Orr was lost to Abaddon! Pain, suffering... why must the memories sear me like it was only yesterday?"

Keeper of the Shrine: The charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to sear our nation as they did Ascalon.
Keeper of the Shrine: Vizier Khilbron says he can defeat them, but we must prepare for the worst.
Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_(story)#Dialogue

Admittedly there is a bit of disconnect between Prophecies' lore and GW2's redesign of things, by putting the Gates of Arah on the far side (unless there are unseen eastern gates, which is entirely possible, but makes the Pact's own movements a bit weirder) and the change of Orrians to being super-duper users of magic. But most of Orr's magic were for everyday uses. You're not going to stop an invading charr army with live fish in water orbs above a fishmonger's tent or basic strength enhancements meant to help with hauling heavy luggage, just like you wouldn't stop a modern army with a smartphone - unless you're some isekai anime protagonist.

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Not really, we can see even the Lich Lord could rise an army to cause trouble to the White Mantles, not to say the majority of Zhaitan's high rank Risen were from Orr.

Khilbron had no interest in saving Orr. He was dedicated to sinking it, and did not raise any army to stop the charr.

Your Majesty,
I write this knowing it will never reach your eyes. I've been faithfully yours since the moment I entered your service—I have never wavered, and I never will. I tell you this because you may not understand what I'm about to do. I belong to you, yes, but also to the dark god. He has shown me how to end this war. And the price is steep.
I will read this scroll, fully knowing the consequences. Orr will be gone. Perhaps forgotten. But it will not be remembered as a land conquered by brutes. To me, that is worth the sacrifice. I'm sorry, old friend—and I hope one day, when we meet in the afterlife, you will greet me with forgiveness.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Message_from_Vizier_Khilbron

The majority of Zhaitan's high ranked risen were long dead Orrians, they were not alive in 1071 AE. Most of those that died in the Cataclysm were turned into the undead that Khilbron raided Kryta with, which primarily had spellcasters - and a notable lack of warriors among their soldier ranks (all warrior undead were either grasps - citizens, most likely - or the executioners which were rather warped).

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If they were not good, why would they cause trouble to the White Mantle ,who was good at divine magic?

Abandoned by their leaders, betrayed by their countrymen, hungry and worn, the people of Kryta flocked to Saul's banner and rallied to his cause.

Saul and his followers saved desperate and defenseless Krytans from the Charr, but there were too many invaders, and Saul's disciples were too few.

Remember Kryta was saved by like a bunch of not really organized ppl plus like 3-5 Mursaat. Orr army would surely be much stronger than these ppl. And even after the Searing and Loric lead a lot of ppl to Kryta, Ascalon still managed to hold that long.

As for the Mursaat, Orr got powerful priests, mesmers, archmages and all kinds of magic. Even those Risen priests could still use their gods' power. I don't see they would not be able to defend themselves, especially when the Charr go to cross that far, which means their supply would be a question.

The White Mantle were not good at divine magic though? Not sure where you get that.

That quote you mentioned is about the charr invasion, not the undead invasion. You also put way too much emphasis on the BMP mission, which was an infiltration and assassination. Most of the work was done by the mursaat and their Spectral Agony spell and an army off-screen holding the charr at bay, and that was fairly late into the conflict - late enough for the charr to break through the Lionguard.

You'd note that when fighting hte undead, the White Mantle had no mursaat using Spectral Agony by their side - and you'd also note that Spectral Agony does not work as well against beings who's souls are already in agony like eidolons and titans... And if the spell were to target souls... soulless undead would also be fairly immune.

The amount of risen priests who were alive during the Cataclysm is, again, fairly thin. And they're powerful magic users but not combat magic users. Not all magic is designed for combat, this seems to be the critical thing you're missing - priests are not soldiers. Risen priests fight and fight well because they're empowered and directed by Zhaitan, not because they were fighters in life.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

How? That's the 5 gods' magic, on the place where the gods gave human help, how is it weaker than Mursaat? We also saw Magdaer, with the 6 gods' a fraction of power,  could unleash Foefire which could match the power of Searing.

Even with Zhaitan's corruption and the gods left(Balthazar was not god anymore), these priests proved to be very powerful figures. There are also many mesmers could play tricks.

Even Saul could hold that long, why wasn't Orr army be able to do so? Ascalon was devastated, and it still held for decades.

It's not a question of whether the gods' power is weaker than the mursaat's - it's a question of the Orrians having defenses against magic that targets the very soul and twists and torments it. They did not, because they had no reason to have such defenses. Same reason why Shining Blade, charr, Stone Summit, and Deldrimor didn't until the Shining Blade consulted the Seer.

And the Orrians did not have access to the gods' power anyways - they had no Magdaer to use. And Zhaitan's corruption enhanced the priests, not degrade them, who I restate were not fighters in life. Except maybe Balthazar's priests (but as Path of Fire shows, the priests of Balthazars are not really fighters nor powerful).

Also remember that the charr had Searing Cauldrons with them - and we don't know whether or not they used them.

 

You're basically asking "why were civilians with cars and smartphones unable to hold out against a massive army of 9" bull-cats bred and breathing war". Yeah, Orrians were magical. But their magic was levitating water balls for fish to be displayed in. Good luck drowning a charr before it claws out your gut.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also didn't King Reza have the Scepter of Orr on his hand before Cataclysm. Those Charr's magic source came from the Titans, and they obey the Scepter's will.

We do not know where the Scepter of Orr was before the Cataclysm beyond it being in Orr. King Reza having it is most likely, but that doesn't mean he knew how to wield it in a meaningful manner against an invading army.

The charr's magic source did not come from the Titan. The titans only provided the Cauldron of Cataclysm, which remained in Ascalon. The Flame Legion shamans enchanted the Searing Cauldrons afterward - and even then, the Cauldron of Cataclysm seemed to pull from Kralkatorrik, not the titans. And even then we actually do not know if the Titans obey the Scepter's will, because they were Abaddon's servants and so was Khilrbon, so far all we know Abaddon told them "follow the guy with the shiny stick once your on the other side".

And even if the titans were forced to follow the Scepter of Orr's wielder, the titans were not present in the army - the only titan known to be on Tyria before the Door of Komalie's opening was Saevio Proelium, who was imprisoned by the Order of Whispers at the time. The charr army were just charr, and probably giant devourers and hunter beasts.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Slowpokeking.8720]

26 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Most Risen fighters were imported from raids or from long dead graves. Most of Orr's army was not in Orr at the time due to the Guild Wars. In addition to what you quoted you have this quest chain in GW1 that helps show the events from the Orrian PoV.

 

And yes, Khilbron did sell them out from within. Specifically he told them that he had a plan to eradicate the charr, and most Orrians relied on this. As shown in both the GW1 quest above, and a GW2 dialogue:

Wandering Soul: "The Vizier of Orr had a plan. A magic that would kill the Charr..."
Wandering Soul: "No wait! We discovered that the Vizier had been corrupted by the God of Secrets! We found the forbidden books in his quarters! It's coming back to me now."
Wandering Soul: "The Vizier was a traitor! Too late, Orr was lost to Abaddon! Pain, suffering... why must the memories sear me like it was only yesterday?"

Keeper of the Shrine: The charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to sear our nation as they did Ascalon.
Keeper of the Shrine: Vizier Khilbron says he can defeat them, but we must prepare for the worst.
Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cathedral_of_Silence_(story)#Dialogue

Admittedly there is a bit of disconnect between Prophecies' lore and GW2's redesign of things, by putting the Gates of Arah on the far side (unless there are unseen eastern gates, which is entirely possible, but makes the Pact's own movements a bit weirder) and the change of Orrians to being super-duper users of magic. But most of Orr's magic were for everyday uses. You're not going to stop an invading charr army with live fish in water orbs above a fishmonger's tent or basic strength enhancements meant to help with hauling heavy luggage, just like you wouldn't stop a modern army with a smartphone - unless you're some isekai anime protagonist.

Khilbron had no interest in saving Orr. He was dedicated to sinking it, and did not raise any army to stop the charr.

Your Majesty,
I write this knowing it will never reach your eyes. I've been faithfully yours since the moment I entered your service—I have never wavered, and I never will. I tell you this because you may not understand what I'm about to do. I belong to you, yes, but also to the dark god. He has shown me how to end this war. And the price is steep.
I will read this scroll, fully knowing the consequences. Orr will be gone. Perhaps forgotten. But it will not be remembered as a land conquered by brutes. To me, that is worth the sacrifice. I'm sorry, old friend—and I hope one day, when we meet in the afterlife, you will greet me with forgiveness.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Message_from_Vizier_Khilbron

The majority of Zhaitan's high ranked risen were long dead Orrians, they were not alive in 1071 AE. Most of those that died in the Cataclysm were turned into the undead that Khilbron raided Kryta with, which primarily had spellcasters - and a notable lack of warriors among their soldier ranks (all warrior undead were either grasps - citizens, most likely - or the executioners which were rather warped).

The White Mantle were not good at divine magic though? Not sure where you get that.

That quote you mentioned is about the charr invasion, not the undead invasion. You also put way too much emphasis on the BMP mission, which was an infiltration and assassination. Most of the work was done by the mursaat and their Spectral Agony spell and an army off-screen holding the charr at bay, and that was fairly late into the conflict - late enough for the charr to break through the Lionguard.

You'd note that when fighting hte undead, the White Mantle had no mursaat using Spectral Agony by their side - and you'd also note that Spectral Agony does not work as well against beings who's souls are already in agony like eidolons and titans... And if the spell were to target souls... soulless undead would also be fairly immune.

The amount of risen priests who were alive during the Cataclysm is, again, fairly thin. And they're powerful magic users but not combat magic users. Not all magic is designed for combat, this seems to be the critical thing you're missing - priests are not soldiers. Risen priests fight and fight well because they're empowered and directed by Zhaitan, not because they were fighters in life.

It's not a question of whether the gods' power is weaker than the mursaat's - it's a question of the Orrians having defenses against magic that targets the very soul and twists and torments it. They did not, because they had no reason to have such defenses. Same reason why Shining Blade, charr, Stone Summit, and Deldrimor didn't until the Shining Blade consulted the Seer.

And the Orrians did not have access to the gods' power anyways - they had no Magdaer to use. And Zhaitan's corruption enhanced the priests, not degrade them, who I restate were not fighters in life. Except maybe Balthazar's priests (but as Path of Fire shows, the priests of Balthazars are not really fighters nor powerful).

Also remember that the charr had Searing Cauldrons with them - and we don't know whether or not they used them.

 

You're basically asking "why were civilians with cars and smartphones unable to hold out against a massive army of 9" bull-cats bred and breathing war". Yeah, Orrians were magical. But their magic was levitating water balls for fish to be displayed in. Good luck drowning a charr before it claws out your gut.

We do not know where the Scepter of Orr was before the Cataclysm beyond it being in Orr. King Reza having it is most likely, but that doesn't mean he knew how to wield it in a meaningful manner against an invading army.

The charr's magic source did not come from the Titan. The titans only provided the Cauldron of Cataclysm, which remained in Ascalon. The Flame Legion shamans enchanted the Searing Cauldrons afterward - and even then, the Cauldron of Cataclysm seemed to pull from Kralkatorrik, not the titans. And even then we actually do not know if the Titans obey the Scepter's will, because they were Abaddon's servants and so was Khilrbon, so far all we know Abaddon told them "follow the guy with the shiny stick once your on the other side".

And even if the titans were forced to follow the Scepter of Orr's wielder, the titans were not present in the army - the only titan known to be on Tyria before the Door of Komalie's opening was Saevio Proelium, who was imprisoned by the Order of Whispers at the time. The charr army were just charr, and probably giant devourers and hunter beasts.

Nothing you quoted in the quest saying the army was not at Orr.

 

The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

Hopes were high that the Charr would be defeated quickly. The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

 

Orr's magic was everywhere doesn't mean they don't use it to fight.

 

I was saying that The Lich raised undead Orr army to invade Kryta.

Nothing said those ppl were long dead, most of them got flesh on their body.

 

Leaders of White Mantles are Confessor Dorian, many of them use divine magic.

 

Nothing said they were not fighters in life, they all got very strong skills using their god's power, not Zhaitan's. Zhaitan don't teach ppl to use god magic. Nor did he ever showing that he possessed any god magic.

Also what does Orrians have to do with it?  Th Charr can't defend against Mursaat, but they don't have anything go against the god's magic as well.

And they got divine spectral weapons plus the scepter or Orr, maybe more.

They didn't, the flashback of Grenth' priest said they only planned to use it. 

Keeper of the Shrine: The charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to sear our nation as they did Ascalon.

Keeper of the Shrine: Vizier Khilbron says he can defeat them, but we must prepare for the worst.

Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.

Keeper of the Shrine: Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me

And the Scepter belong to King Reza.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya

"Recently, a group of White Mantle scholars uncovered what they believe to be the Scepter of Orr, a powerful artifact once possessed by King Reza, the last king of Orr."

 

King Reza: I, the most powerful of all, was placed here to guard the source of Orr‘s magic. Yet, you have found a way. I am deeply grateful.

 

King Reza is the most powerful of all the kings, of course he knew how to use its power.

Titans gave Flame Legion the magic, and there was no Searing in the invasion of Orr. If the Scepter could make them obey, then it should be able to control their flame magic.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Orrians were just bad at fighting ez

[Slowpokeking.8720]

If the priests were using dragon magic to fight, then it means they are enhanced by Zhaitan, but they mostly use their god's magic.

Reza also had the Source of Orr to enhance the magic.

[draxynnic.3719]

The Orrians probably would use magic to fight - but having a higher proportion of spellcasters might not help much if they haven't focused on battle magic.

The key thing to note, I think, is that Zhaitan had access to every corpse that died on Orr. Orr was over a thousand years old at the time of the Cataclysm - even if every man, woman and child was drafted into the army, the Orrians likely had less than a twentieth of the force that Zhaitan was able to draw from Orr alone, let alone the charr that died at Orr or the corpses collected by the Dead Ships. Zhaitan also made the majority of the Risen more combat-effective than they were in life - creating monstrosities like Eyes and Knights, enhancing those that worth worthwhile, and converting civilians who might have had morale issues in life into mindless zombies that felt nothing but the desire to slaughter Zhaitan's foes. Orr's military strength at the time of the charr invasion would be orders of magnitude weaker than Zhaitan's.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The Orrians probably would use magic to fight - but having a higher proportion of spellcasters might not help much if they haven't focused on battle magic.

The key thing to note, I think, is that Zhaitan had access to every corpse that died on Orr. Orr was over a thousand years old at the time of the Cataclysm - even if every man, woman and child was drafted into the army, the Orrians likely had less than a twentieth of the force that Zhaitan was able to draw from Orr alone, let alone the charr that died at Orr or the corpses collected by the Dead Ships. Zhaitan also made the majority of the Risen more combat-effective than they were in life - creating monstrosities like Eyes and Knights, enhancing those that worth worthwhile, and converting civilians who might have had morale issues in life into mindless zombies that felt nothing but the desire to slaughter Zhaitan's foes. Orr's military strength at the time of the charr invasion would be orders of magnitude weaker than Zhaitan's.

They were rdy to fight and had been in war, also they once got into trouble with war of magic so the gods got to use bloodstone. Why would ppl think they didn't focus on Battle magic.

You don't need Zhaitan Risen's full strength to defeat the Charr, as Kryta and Ascalon had proven.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

1 minute ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They were rdy to fight and had been in war, also they once got into trouble with war of magic so the gods got to use bloodstone. Why would ppl think they didn't focus on Battle magic.

You don't need Zhaitan Risen's full strength to defeat the Charr, as Kryta and Ascalon had proven.

Ascalon lost though? 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Just now, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Ascalon lost though? 

Ascalon was able to hold for decades, after the charr had used the Searing, and a lot of ppl left Kryta. Also the Charr were much closer to Ascalon so their supply line would not be a problem.

Why would Orr lose in 12 hours, with such powerful magic artifacts, the 5 gods' power and a fully army to defend?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Nothing you quoted in the quest saying the army was not at Orr.

The armies were out at war. There shouldn't need to be a quote for that specific bit since it would have been impossible to recall every military force faster than the charr's blitzkrieg advancement - not just to outrun the charr, but also because they wouldn't have had guarantee that the guilds and other nations would stop fighting. And I didn't say the quest stated that specifically - I said it delved more into the Orrian perspective of the moments before the Cataclysm than your quote did.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Orr's magic was everywhere doesn't mean they don't use it to fight.

Didn't say that. But nothing says that their combat magic was super powerful. In the very same source you're loving to quote:

The Orrians were a peaceful people, hoping only to do their duty toward their gods and content to be rewarded in either this life or the next. When the guilds began feuding, Orr as a nation tried to stay out of the conflict. This was not the sort of struggle that entire kingdoms got involved in. But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orr

Orrians were not aggressors, so they likely didn't have a powerful standing army despite their culture being more magically inclined than the others. They had their fair share of elementalists, monks, and mesmers as seen in the GW1 undead army, but that doesn't make them super humans.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

I was saying that The Lich raised undead Orr army to invade Kryta.

Nothing said those ppl were long dead, most of them got flesh on their body.

Every risen has flesh - even the 1,300 year old corpse Mazdak. That says nothing for their age, given that it seems part of Zhaitan's powers to turn any flesh - or lack thereof - into decayed flesh.

And you explicitly said that Zhaitan had the army - to quote:

10 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

From the Risen, we can see that:

Orr got a lot of fighters and powerful sorcerers, priests, that's even after the Lich animated a lot of undead.

But that's simply not true. Most Orrian risen are notably not soldiers.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Leaders of White Mantles are Confessor Dorian, many of them use divine magic.

Ah, yes, the divine magic known as Healing Breeze and Heal Area. Checking his skills on wiki, his only offensive skill ever used is Banish. Which is weak as kitten.

Not to mention that monk prayers is not actually divine magic. Monks, like guardians, use Tyrian magic that is empowered by faith. Divine magic is magic gifted by the Six Gods, and Dorian - and the other White Mantle - notably did not worship or use the Six Gods' magic. And mursaat cannot grant divine magic.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Nothing said they were not fighters in life, they all got very strong skills using their god's power, not Zhaitan's. Zhaitan don't teach ppl to use god magic. Nor did he ever showing that he possessed any god magic.

Generally speaking, most priests do not live the life of Constantine from Marvel. They do not fight on the battlefield.

Other than a handful of Priests of Balthazar, there isn't a single priest of the Six in GW1 or GW2 that actively fights in the battlefield.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Also what does Orrians have to do with it?  Th Charr can't defend against Mursaat, but they don't have anything go against the god's magic as well.

If the White Mantle have nothing to do with Orrians, why did you bring it up.

And "the god's magic" isn't some super duper special magical instant win button - if it was, the risen priests would have wiped the floor with the Pact. You can witness what the gods' blessings are and while they do improve chances, they're no guarantee - especially for an army that's not used to seeing combat.

And they

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And they got divine spectral weapons plus the scepter or Orr, maybe more.

Even assuming they were able to use and control the spectral weapons... A) they are not divine, and B) they are not powerful.

And the Scepter of Orr's ability to control spirits is impressive, but ultimately useless against a charr army. We never see the Scepter of Orr do anything else.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They didn't, the flashback of Grenth' priest said they only planned to use it. 

Keeper of the Shrine: The charr are at the doorstep of Orr. They plan to sear our nation as they did Ascalon.

Keeper of the Shrine: Vizier Khilbron says he can defeat them, but we must prepare for the worst.

Keeper of the Shrine: As Desmina did so many years ago, we shall call upon Grenth for his aid. If Orr dies, at least we will be with Him.

Keeper of the Shrine: Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me

I don't even know what you're responding to or what point you're trying to make. That dialogue is showing that the priests of Grenth were only preparing to meet with Grenth... i.e., die. Hence "if Orr dies, at least we will be with Him."

There's nothing to support they summoned an avatar or got anything more special than a +3 to health regeneration, which wouldn't really make, what was it, nine priests? survive against an army.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And the Scepter belong to King Reza.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mantle_Knight_Karriya

"Recently, a group of White Mantle scholars uncovered what they believe to be the Scepter of Orr, a powerful artifact once possessed by King Reza, the last king of Orr."

Doesn't mean he had it on him, it could have been in a god damned vault for all we know. And even if he did have it on him within arm's reach, it says nothing about him knowing how to use it - either in general or in combat. Combat which he has likely never been in before.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

King Reza: I, the most powerful of all, was placed here to guard the source of Orr‘s magic. Yet, you have found a way. I am deeply grateful.

 

King Reza is the most powerful of all the kings, of course he knew how to use its power.

He was the most powerful Eye of Zhaitan, that was about his time enslaved to Zhaitan not his time alive. That line is completely irrelevant to his pre-death state.

2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Titans gave Flame Legion the magic, and there was no Searing in the invasion of Orr. If the Scepter could make them obey, then it should be able to control their flame magic.

Abaddon gave the Flame Legion the Cauldron of Cataclysm through titan intermediaries. He did not provide the magic, as the Cauldron was already empowered.

When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied. With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron's magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

The Flame Legion shamans then enchanted the many Searing Cauldrons with magic:

Researcher Fero: Well, braid my ears! Those ancient Flame Legion poo-bahs may've been evil, oppressive oiks, but they knew how to enchant a weapon.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past

And we have no way of knowing if there wasn't a Searing - the Searing Cauldrons they brought with were less powerful than the Cauldron of Cataclysm used to perform the Searing. We see in Iron Marches and in the personal story how weak the Searing Cauldrons are in comparison - only capable of wiping out a small town or large building, with the smaller, weaker crystals being destroyed on impact.

To anyone looking 250 years later, or even less, it'd just be the sight of a siege.

And again the titans were not present in the invasion, if titans were there then the ghosts of Orrians would have kitten well commented on it. Unlike mursaat, the titans cannot hide their presence. Hell we get a glimpse of the invasion force in Jahai Bluffs in LWS4 - only charr present.

And even if the titans were present - they weren't - then King Reza would have A) wielding the Scepter of Orr, B) been personally in front of the titans, and C) know that he could actually do that. Even if he knew the Scepter of Orr could control souls, the titans don't look like souls - he wouldn't know what the kitten a titan was, and would just see a towering three-legged elemental for all he knew of unless he was somehow wiser than every other Tyrian of note in regards to ancient and otherworldly creatures at the time.

58 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They were rdy to fight and had been in war, also they once got into trouble with war of magic so the gods got to use bloodstone. Why would ppl think they didn't focus on Battle magic.

You don't need Zhaitan Risen's full strength to defeat the Charr, as Kryta and Ascalon had proven.

"They had to deal with wars a thousand years ago before the nation was even its own independent body of governance" is not logical reasoning for the nation of a statedly peaceful culture to have a highly trained military force.

Why would people think they didn't focus on battle magic? Because that's what the lore says. They were a peaceful nation. A nation that avoided conflict. Even if they did have a standing army, that army wouldn't be near the level of battle readiness as Ascalon who has been in near constant warfare since its founding, or on par of Kryta who had participated not just in the Third Guild War but the First and Second as well as dealing off-and-on with the Centaur War for 700 years at that point.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Ariurotl.3718]

This was back in the day when machines were immune to conditions (they really used to build stuff to last back then) so the Orrians had no chance. 🤡

[Dadnir.5038]

Why did Orr lose to the charrs?

• Ascalon had been shielding them from the Charrs for a long time so they most likely didn't expect their shield to fall. They were caught off guard.
• The Charrs most likely had a high moral from taking back Ascalon after a long time.
• Orrians that had managed to avoid the first 2 Guild wars had gotten drawn in the 3rd Guild war causing chaos within Arah's street which probably contributed to weaken their battle readiness.
• The nature of the Orrian's magic might not have been suitable for war as they were said to "practice magic in an everyday fashion that would seem strange to visitors".
• Abbadon might have had a hand into the fall of Orr as it was the time period in which he was moving actively behind the scene. He was quite good at stirring trouble and he had quite the grudge against the other gods.

[draxynnic.3719]

20 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

• Abbadon might have had a hand into the fall of Orr as it was the time period in which he was moving actively behind the scene. He was quite good at stirring trouble and he had quite the grudge against the other gods.

Abaddon absolutely had a hand. He set the charr going in the first place, while also manipulating the Vizier into setting off the Cataclysm as soon as he had an excuse. I think it's also been said that Abaddon specifically wanted to destroy Orr out of spite, but I don't recall where that was or if it was in-game or out-of-game.

5 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They were rdy to fight and had been in war, also they once got into trouble with war of magic so the gods got to use bloodstone. Why would ppl think they didn't focus on Battle magic.

You don't need Zhaitan Risen's full strength to defeat the Charr, as Kryta and Ascalon had proven.

Like people have said - because they were, at that time, mostly a peaceful people. There would have been soldiers who practiced battle magic, but at that point the charr had that too, and all of the charr shamans were oriented towards battle magic. A civilian who uses magic to start a cooking fire or as a substitute for makeup is not necessarily going to be able to immediately switch to slinging fireballs and mesmer mindkittenery.

We see what sort of magic the Orrians had. On the whole, their battle magic seems to be on the same level as everyone else at the time. They just had more developed civilian magic.

As for Kryta and Ascalon:

Ascalon survived the first assault (barely) because the main body of the charr army proceeded on to Orr - likely assuming they could mop up Ascalon at their leisure. They knew that they'd rendered Ascalon unsustainable in the medium term (Pyre has a quote about eating ash that expresses this). Ascalon survived the 1072AE assault by player ex machina, but still lost what was left of another city in the process, and fell in 1080AE. Even then, odds are that Ascalon only survived as long as it did because of the losses that the charr sustained in the Cataclysm.

Kryta had the aid of the mursaat, and it was probably a weaker force to begin with - the assault force on Kryta had to pass through the Far Shiverpeaks, and was probably primarily intended to keep Kryta from sending aid east or south. Mind you, the Someone in Need achievement revealed that it was the fault of the mursaat that Kryta was in such disarray to begin with.

It is worth keeping in mind that the Guild Wars played a big role in weakening all three nations, because the most powerful battle spellcasters tended to be in the guilds, and a common tactic during the Guild Wars was to destroy opposing battle magic schools. Orr was less affected, but not completely unscathed. It wouldn't have been a coincidence that the Charr assault started after the human nations had already been worn down. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Abaddon had a part to play in getting the Guild Wars rolling, but I don't think that's ever been specified.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Abaddon absolutely had a hand. He set the charr going in the first place, while also manipulating the Vizier into setting off the Cataclysm as soon as he had an excuse. I think it's also been said that Abaddon specifically wanted to destroy Orr out of spite, but I don't recall where that was or if it was in-game or out-of-game.

The wiki don't specifically state it, which is why I don't say it in an absolute manner.

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There would have been soldiers who practiced battle magic, but at that point the charr had that too, and all of the charr shamans were oriented towards battle magic

From the History of tyria:

Quote

... Powerful groups grew up within each nation. These were known as guilds. It was these groups, these guilds, that held the real power in Tyria. Though there were kings and organizations that made the laws and regulated the land, it was the guilds that enforced these laws—or didn’t—as they saw fit...

So guild wars definitely weakened the various kingdoms as the guild were where the law enforcer were. And Orr fall around the end of the 3rd guild war (the only one that involve Orr).

[Kalavier.1097]

Also, It says Orr expected the Charr to be weakened/tired from Ascalon. They were not. Many Orrians likely had never seen the Charr. It sounds like they could've fallen for the often noted blunder of "Telling everybody this would be easy, we have won already!" which can cause moral to shatter when they find out the enemy force is still 100% strength.

While it's Army was equal to Ascalon or Kryta in numbers, and perhaps even strength of gear/spellcasters, it wasn't one that was well practiced or experienced. Kryta's army was in shambles with the disappearance of the king and the Charr advances from the North, and Ascalon knew how to fight Charr and held the ground.

Another thing that is worth noting is that historically, Humans have always punched well above their weight when using fortifications/natural defenses. IIRC, Orr's army matched on the Charr in open field combat, giving the Charr an easy edge physically.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The armies were out at war. There shouldn't need to be a quote for that specific bit since it would have been impossible to recall every military force faster than the charr's blitzkrieg advancement - not just to outrun the charr, but also because they wouldn't have had guarantee that the guilds and other nations would stop fighting. And I didn't say the quest stated that specifically - I said it delved more into the Orrian perspective of the moments before the Cataclysm than your quote did.

Didn't say that. But nothing says that their combat magic was super powerful. In the very same source you're loving to quote:

The Orrians were a peaceful people, hoping only to do their duty toward their gods and content to be rewarded in either this life or the next. When the guilds began feuding, Orr as a nation tried to stay out of the conflict. This was not the sort of struggle that entire kingdoms got involved in. But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Orr

Orrians were not aggressors, so they likely didn't have a powerful standing army despite their culture being more magically inclined than the others. They had their fair share of elementalists, monks, and mesmers as seen in the GW1 undead army, but that doesn't make them super humans.

Every risen has flesh - even the 1,300 year old corpse Mazdak. That says nothing for their age, given that it seems part of Zhaitan's powers to turn any flesh - or lack thereof - into decayed flesh.

And you explicitly said that Zhaitan had the army - to quote:

But that's simply not true. Most Orrian risen are notably not soldiers.

Ah, yes, the divine magic known as Healing Breeze and Heal Area. Checking his skills on wiki, his only offensive skill ever used is Banish. Which is weak as kitten.

Not to mention that monk prayers is not actually divine magic. Monks, like guardians, use Tyrian magic that is empowered by faith. Divine magic is magic gifted by the Six Gods, and Dorian - and the other White Mantle - notably did not worship or use the Six Gods' magic. And mursaat cannot grant divine magic.

Generally speaking, most priests do not live the life of Constantine from Marvel. They do not fight on the battlefield.

Other than a handful of Priests of Balthazar, there isn't a single priest of the Six in GW1 or GW2 that actively fights in the battlefield.

If the White Mantle have nothing to do with Orrians, why did you bring it up.

And "the god's magic" isn't some super duper special magical instant win button - if it was, the risen priests would have wiped the floor with the Pact. You can witness what the gods' blessings are and while they do improve chances, they're no guarantee - especially for an army that's not used to seeing combat.

And they

Even assuming they were able to use and control the spectral weapons... A) they are not divine, and B) they are not powerful.

And the Scepter of Orr's ability to control spirits is impressive, but ultimately useless against a charr army. We never see the Scepter of Orr do anything else.

I don't even know what you're responding to or what point you're trying to make. That dialogue is showing that the priests of Grenth were only preparing to meet with Grenth... i.e., die. Hence "if Orr dies, at least we will be with Him."

There's nothing to support they summoned an avatar or got anything more special than a +3 to health regeneration, which wouldn't really make, what was it, nine priests? survive against an army.

Doesn't mean he had it on him, it could have been in a god damned vault for all we know. And even if he did have it on him within arm's reach, it says nothing about him knowing how to use it - either in general or in combat. Combat which he has likely never been in before.

He was the most powerful Eye of Zhaitan, that was about his time enslaved to Zhaitan not his time alive. That line is completely irrelevant to his pre-death state.

Abaddon gave the Flame Legion the Cauldron of Cataclysm through titan intermediaries. He did not provide the magic, as the Cauldron was already empowered.

When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied. With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron's magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

The Flame Legion shamans then enchanted the many Searing Cauldrons with magic:

Researcher Fero: Well, braid my ears! Those ancient Flame Legion poo-bahs may've been evil, oppressive oiks, but they knew how to enchant a weapon.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past

And we have no way of knowing if there wasn't a Searing - the Searing Cauldrons they brought with were less powerful than the Cauldron of Cataclysm used to perform the Searing. We see in Iron Marches and in the personal story how weak the Searing Cauldrons are in comparison - only capable of wiping out a small town or large building, with the smaller, weaker crystals being destroyed on impact.

To anyone looking 250 years later, or even less, it'd just be the sight of a siege.

And again the titans were not present in the invasion, if titans were there then the ghosts of Orrians would have kitten well commented on it. Unlike mursaat, the titans cannot hide their presence. Hell we get a glimpse of the invasion force in Jahai Bluffs in LWS4 - only charr present.

And even if the titans were present - they weren't - then King Reza would have A) wielding the Scepter of Orr, B) been personally in front of the titans, and C) know that he could actually do that. Even if he knew the Scepter of Orr could control souls, the titans don't look like souls - he wouldn't know what the kitten a titan was, and would just see a towering three-legged elemental for all he knew of unless he was somehow wiser than every other Tyrian of note in regards to ancient and otherworldly creatures at the time.

"They had to deal with wars a thousand years ago before the nation was even its own independent body of governance" is not logical reasoning for the nation of a statedly peaceful culture to have a highly trained military force.

Why would people think they didn't focus on battle magic? Because that's what the lore says. They were a peaceful nation. A nation that avoided conflict. Even if they did have a standing army, that army wouldn't be near the level of battle readiness as Ascalon who has been in near constant warfare since its founding, or on par of Kryta who had participated not just in the Third Guild War but the First and Second as well as dealing off-and-on with the Centaur War for 700 years at that point.

No, they came back.

Quote

The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

 

We were shown that they are super powerful, through their Risen spellcaster version. We saw what scepter of Orr could do.

They are peaceful but they are good at fighting as well.
 

Quote

 

But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.

The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

 

Yes they do have powerful army, and they are good at fighting.

Again we saw the priests proved to be powerful fighters even in their Risen version, if they are not good at fighting, how did they know such powerful combat divine magic?

Even just Sharur was a legendary weapon.

I was talking about monk magic, which has double effect on undead. Since even the Lich's undead could cause trouble, the Orrians must be very powerful.

We have Six God's magic as well. Also they don't serve their gods anymore, thus their power should be weaker. The Pact got such advanced technology, years of research and all races' magic/tech.

 

The dialogue showed the charr didn't use Searing on Orr.

 

Yes he had it on him, the dialogue directly told us, why are you avoiding it?

Why was he the most powerful eye? Because he was the most powerful of the kings. No, the dragon went to the tomb when it rose, it got nothing to do with time.

Quote

King Reza: When the dragon rose, it plundered the royal tomb at Azabe Qabar and used the bodies of my family to create its most heinous servitors—the Eyes of Zhaitan.

 

Yes, their magic came from the Titans

Quote

When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied. With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron's magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.

Which means they are below the power of the Scepter of Orr and is dominated by it.

They are peaceful doesn't mean they don't have power to defend themselves.

Quote

But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.

And the magic proved it.

Also they did prepare for the war.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

 

Like people have said - because they were, at that time, mostly a peaceful people. There would have been soldiers who practiced battle magic, but at that point the charr had that too, and all of the charr shamans were oriented towards battle magic. A civilian who uses magic to start a cooking fire or as a substitute for makeup is not necessarily going to be able to immediately switch to slinging fireballs and mesmer mindkittenery.

We see what sort of magic the Orrians had. On the whole, their battle magic seems to be on the same level as everyone else at the time. They just had more developed civilian magic.

As for Kryta and Ascalon:

Ascalon survived the first assault (barely) because the main body of the charr army proceeded on to Orr - likely assuming they could mop up Ascalon at their leisure. They knew that they'd rendered Ascalon unsustainable in the medium term (Pyre has a quote about eating ash that expresses this). Ascalon survived the 1072AE assault by player ex machina, but still lost what was left of another city in the process, and fell in 1080AE. Even then, odds are that Ascalon only survived as long as it did because of the losses that the charr sustained in the Cataclysm.

Kryta had the aid of the mursaat, and it was probably a weaker force to begin with - the assault force on Kryta had to pass through the Far Shiverpeaks, and was probably primarily intended to keep Kryta from sending aid east or south. Mind you, the Someone in Need achievement revealed that it was the fault of the mursaat that Kryta was in such disarray to begin with.

It is worth keeping in mind that the Guild Wars played a big role in weakening all three nations, because the most powerful battle spellcasters tended to be in the guilds, and a common tactic during the Guild Wars was to destroy opposing battle magic schools. Orr was less affected, but not completely unscathed. It wouldn't have been a coincidence that the Charr assault started after the human nations had already been worn down. I wouldn't be surprised to find that Abaddon had a part to play in getting the Guild Wars rolling, but I don't think that's ever been specified.

Again

Quote

But when the strife overflowed into armed conflict, and guilds from the other human nations began fighting in the streets of Arah, Orr rose to defend itself and the city of the gods.

Quote

The Orrian army was the equal of any in Tyria, and the invaders had already fought a long battle against the Ascalons. But those hopes were dashed in less than twelve hours.

No, their magic is very powerful and with the Source of Orr, the priests are all very strong figures. They also got powerful items like the Scepter of Orr.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also, It says Orr expected the Charr to be weakened/tired from Ascalon. They were not. Many Orrians likely had never seen the Charr. It sounds like they could've fallen for the often noted blunder of "Telling everybody this would be easy, we have won already!" which can cause moral to shatter when they find out the enemy force is still 100% strength.

While it's Army was equal to Ascalon or Kryta in numbers, and perhaps even strength of gear/spellcasters, it wasn't one that was well practiced or experienced. Kryta's army was in shambles with the disappearance of the king and the Charr advances from the North, and Ascalon knew how to fight Charr and held the ground.

Another thing that is worth noting is that historically, Humans have always punched well above their weight when using fortifications/natural defenses. IIRC, Orr's army matched on the Charr in open field combat, giving the Charr an easy edge physically.

They didn't, they prepared for it.

And the Charr was weakened, since they had to spend a lot of forces to deal with Ascalon, remember Ascalon didn't fall.

How?  The priests all have super strong combat magic, King Reza got scepter of Orr in his control.

They also create powerful spectral weapons, which means they are not bad at combat magic.