Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Guardian

[Ahoni.2906]

I really enjoyed the beta playing it as Power WB with Scepter/Pistol and Sword/Sword.
It's a really nice range dmg option for WB. It was satisfying to finish down kiting people with my S/P.
Guardian also had always a lack of range interrupts and finally with the pistol 5 its there. Its also a really nice opening to get people out of their focus and hit them hard with Scepter/Pistol, while still having your Sword skills in backhand.
It gave the class a perfect possibility to not only play meele. (except DH)

P5 needs for sure more work, because it felt not reliable and somehow they game even didnt know how to handle it. But im sure this will be done anyway.

Dont know about the ideas to swap the skills from P4 to P2 and opposit, because using Pistol/Torch will be to easy.

I'm looking forward to play the Pistol again.
Thanks for the content.

 

[mirage.8046]

The only thing that is missing is physical projectile finishers. It's very surprising and confusing these pistols don't have that. 

What would be nice is a ranged fire field on Symbol of Ignition, a blind or a few stacks of vulnerability, and maybe a boon like might or swiftness. 

If no fire field on pistol 3, pistol 5 could even create a fire field if fully charged or be unblockable to promote the long cast time. You could easily knock back yourself or your allies with this!

[Gaiawolf.8261]

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/new-weapon-proficiencies-beta-feedback-update/

So the article about adjustments from the feedback mentions improvements to the animation speed of Jurisdiction, but nothing about how the skill interacts with targets or changes to the symbol and slot placements of skills two and four. 

I think I'm more confused than anything else. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/new-weapon-proficiencies-beta-feedback-update/

So the article about adjustments from the feedback mentions improvements to the animation speed of Jurisdiction, but nothing about how the skill interacts with targets or changes to the symbol and slot placements of skills two and four. 

I think I'm more confused than anything else. 

Yeah, it looks like ArenaNet has ignored the major pain points and decided that pistols were fine. If anything, I could see this making skill 5 actually worse to use (charging mechanic AND bringing back the 'press again to detonate a moving skill' mechanic that was such a failure before), and they haven't even mentioned the issue of having a supposedly ranged weapon rely on a foot-targeted symbol for a significant portion of its damage.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

28 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, it looks like ArenaNet has ignored the major pain points and decided that pistols were fine. If anything, I could see this making skill 5 actually worse to use (charging mechanic AND bringing back the 'press again to detonate a moving skill' mechanic that was such a failure before), and they haven't even mentioned the issue of having a supposedly ranged weapon rely on a foot-targeted symbol for a significant portion of its damage.

Not mentioning our dissatisfaction or fixes to the symbol are what have me most worried. I'll reserved judgement on skill 5 until I see this adjustment they mentioned, but that doesn't sound good either. It reads like they specifically improved how it functions in melee range. Sigh More focus on how a ranged weapon performs in melee? Really, A-Net?

[Mukizo.1269]

The pistols feel great and are a lot of fun. Once you get used to pistol 5 as a skill shot it’s actually a decent and rewarding skill. I really enjoy these new weapons for guardian. Hopefully the pistols won’t get nerfed but instead torch and scepter, this way more weapon options open up for guardian. Maybe even the warrior relic should get a nerf by 5% (25 to 20% cooldown on weapons).

I suppose you also could nerf main hand pistol slightly and buff the combo with symbol 3 and pistol 4, this way you kinda have to run dual pistols as the main damage option if you want to run them, with these changes the benchmark should be reduced be a few thousand. Relic of the warrior is a long term problem relic anyways when it comes to damage.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

The pistols feel great and are a lot of fun. Once you get used to pistol 5 as a skill shot it’s actually a decent and rewarding skill. I really enjoy these new weapons for guardian. Hopefully the pistols won’t get nerfed but instead torch and scepter, this way more weapon options open up for guardian. Maybe even the warrior relic should get a nerf by 5% (25 to 20% cooldown on weapons).

I suppose you also could nerf main hand pistol slightly and buff the combo with symbol 3 and pistol 4, this way you kinda have to run dual pistols as the main damage option if you want to run them, with these changes the benchmark should be reduced be a few thousand. Relic of the warrior is a long term problem relic anyways when it comes to damage.

The buildcrafters like Snowcrows have replaced sword and axe on guardian condition builds with pistol completely - they're recommending pistol/torch and pistol/pistol. I doubt that was the intended result, and it means that nerfing MH pistol at least will open up more options.

I'm just hoping that they nerf it in a way that nerfs pistol's melee damage without nerfing its ranged damage.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm just hoping that they nerf it in a way that nerfs pistol's melee damage without nerfing its ranged damage.

This is the way. 

[Mukizo.1269]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The buildcrafters like Snowcrows have replaced sword and axe on guardian condition builds with pistol completely - they're recommending pistol/torch and pistol/pistol. I doubt that was the intended result, and it means that nerfing MH pistol at least will open up more options.

I'm just hoping that they nerf it in a way that nerfs pistol's melee damage without nerfing its ranged damage.

Are you talking about firebrand? The guardian build that benches way too high at the moment is Willbender. And Willbender does not run dual pistols it runs scepter and pistol and pistol and torch.

Edit: It also heavily abuses the warrior relic which leaves torch skills off cd whenever you weapon swap back, this is the main problem which result in the high dps not the pistols themselves (that is why running dual pistols are a direct dps loss).

The only build that use duals pistols are firebrand which does 43k damage this actually are in line with other builds (Cvirt does 800less dps and is fully ranged with more utility at lower dps loss).

Qfb deals 37k damage which is way too high for a support role but the rotation feels horrible with way way too high apm, I have yet to see anyone actually play qfb for a long time.

Edited March 12 by Mukizo.1269

[Gaiawolf.8261]

2 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Are you talking about firebrand? The guardian build that benches way too high at the moment is Willbender. And Willbender does not run dual pistols it runs scepter and pistol and pistol and torch.

Firebrand does 43k damage which actually is in line with other builds. Qfb deals 37k damage which is way too high for a support role but the rotation feels horrible with way way too high apm, I have yet to see anyone actually play qfb for a long time.

It's not just QFB. CFB is starting to get way too high APM too, especially OW builds that want to use Zeal with Eternal Armory and a mantra or 2. Between the tome rework, the mantra revert, and the new pistol skills in the rotations, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

I blame the mantra revert the most. It's cool on situational mantras like Liberation and Lore, even Solace, but if feels absolutely terrible on Potence and Flame. Anything that fights back the APM on FB is a win in my book -- and my fingers. I even started using a signet for the first time in years simply so I don't have to mash the same buttons over and over again. 

[Mukizo.1269]

51 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

It's not just QFB. CFB is starting to get way too high APM too, especially OW builds that want to use Zeal with Eternal Armory and a mantra or 2. Between the tome rework, the mantra revert, and the new pistol skills in the rotations, it's getting a bit ridiculous.

I blame the mantra revert the most. It's cool on situational mantras like Liberation and Lore, even Solace, but if feels absolutely terrible on Potence and Flame. Anything that fights back the APM on FB is a win in my book -- and my fingers. I even started using a signet for the first time in years simply so I don't have to mash the same buttons over and over again. 

Yup. The mantras are a problem but so are the tomes. It just doesn’t feel that good to play anymore, thus we see it’s abysmal play rate, I never see firebrands except for HFB (which there are a lot of). I still play cfb for open world (aoe) and some instanced content for its portent of freedom (stability). But it just does not feel like it used to before the tome rework, in mantras I just refuse to use the last charge despite the dps loss it result in.

[Gaiawolf.8261]

1 hour ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Yup. The mantras are a problem but so are the tomes. It just doesn’t feel that good to play anymore, thus we see it’s abysmal play rate, I never see firebrands except for HFB (which there are a lot of). I still play cfb for open world (aoe) and some instanced content for its portent of freedom (stability). But it just does not feel like it used to before the tome rework, in mantras I just refuse to use the last charge despite the dps loss it result in.

I might have to test the DPS loss of not using the last charge of Mantra of Flame. See if it's worth it. Or maybe just replacing it with a traited Sword of Justice? 

For Potence, I can get away with not spending the final charge when using Firebrand runes, but that's such a specific rune pick that's not useful at all on any other build. 

Edit: On a related note, I really hate having to keep running these tests to feel good about my builds every 3-6 months! Barring expansion stuff like new weapons, can't they just find a design that works and stick with it? 

Edited March 12 by Gaiawolf.8261

[Mukizo.1269]

15 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

On a related note, I really hate having to keep running these tests to feel good about my builds every 3-6 months! Barring expansion stuff like new weapons, can't they just find a design that works and stick with it? 

Apparently not. The problem is not entirely with the developer but also the player base complaining about a lot of redundant things. Yes it was completely overtuned in the cm 100 (now 99) era but that was just because it really fit well into that fight (cc, stack, precast). After that everyone started playing cfb in every piece of pve content and we saw a flood of it. Thus people complained about it being overpowered for years until it finally got gutted.
Sure it was very overtuned if you ran celestial gear and every charge of heal mantra having aegis, but now it just feels like a shell of its former self. A good way to nerf it without destroying the identity would be to nerf single target dps. I think it should have stayed a semi support dps jack of all trades spec.

And for the mantra of flame dilemma, I like using the final charge when a fight is about to phase and then charge it up for the next phase. But in the middle of a fight charging it up it feels pretty bad. I never use the firebrand Rune but just blast some stability right before I know cc will appear, won’t be able to have perma stab uptime, probably sub 5-10% but if you know the fight well it works.

Edited March 12 by Mukizo.1269

[Gaiawolf.8261]

56 minutes ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Apparently not. The problem is not entirely with the developer but also the player base complaining about a lot of redundant things. Yes it was completely overtuned in the cm 100 (now 99) era but that was just because it really fit well into that fight (cc, stack, precast). After that everyone started playing cfb in every piece of pve content and we saw a flood of it. Thus people complained about it being overpowered for years until it finally got gutted.
Sure it was very overtuned if you ran celestial gear and every charge of heal mantra having aegis, but now it just feels like a shell of its former self. A good way to nerf it without destroying the identity would be to nerf single target dps. I think it should have stayed a semi support dps jack of all trades spec.

And for the mantra of flame dilemma, I like using the final charge when a fight is about to phase and then charge it up for the next phase. But in the middle of a fight charging it up it feels pretty bad. I never use the firebrand Rune but just blast some stability right before I know cc will appear, won’t be able to have perma stab uptime, probably sub 5-10% but if you know the fight well it works.

I've given up on QFB in instance content. Firebrand runes are now only leftovers used for my all-around support build for OW. And they are on the cusp of deletion for something more broadly useful. I'm just not sure what yet. 

Relating back to the topic, maybe I can find something to make pistols work as pistols instead of melee blasters. 😅

[draxynnic.3719]

13 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Are you talking about firebrand? The guardian build that benches way too high at the moment is Willbender. And Willbender does not run dual pistols it runs scepter and pistol and pistol and torch.

Edit: It also heavily abuses the warrior relic which leaves torch skills off cd whenever you weapon swap back, this is the main problem which result in the high dps not the pistols themselves (that is why running dual pistols are a direct dps loss).

The only build that use duals pistols are firebrand which does 43k damage this actually are in line with other builds (Cvirt does 800less dps and is fully ranged with more utility at lower dps loss).

Qfb deals 37k damage which is way too high for a support role but the rotation feels horrible with way way too high apm, I have yet to see anyone actually play qfb for a long time.

Pretty sure I saw a P/T and P/P willbender as well. Snowcrows has been updating pretty rapidly since the new weapons were introduced, though, it might have been an earlier version before they added scepter.

[Mukizo.1269]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty sure I saw a P/T and P/P willbender as well. Snowcrows has been updating pretty rapidly since the new weapons were introduced, though, it might have been an earlier version before they added scepter.

P/P is a dps loss in all cases based on the different options available, I wrote earlier how that is why. If you are not interested in finding out why then that is fine.

If you still think I am wrong you could provide links and sources, maybe even some equations.

Edited March 13 by Mukizo.1269

[Gaiawolf.8261]

They tested a P/T + P/P build that got to ~47.5K. Going scepter with the /P instead brought it up to ~48K. So yeah, there was a P/P build that did slightly less damage, but ~1-2% DPS is negligible if you prefer the playstyle.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

P/P is a dps loss in all cases based on the different options available, I wrote earlier how that is why. If you are not interested in finding out why then that is fine.

If you still think I am wrong you could provide links and sources, maybe even some equations.

Given that Sc/P is the current build, I expect you're right - but like I said, I'm pretty sure that P/P existed beforehand before they figured out they could eke out a few hundred more DPS with scepter. It's not a matter of disbelieving you, it's a matter of having seen the previous step in the process.

Either way, I suspect ArenaNet is likely to conclude that completely wiping out axe (and sword's use by condi WB) was not the intended result.

[Mukizo.1269]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Given that Sc/P is the current build, I expect you're right - but like I said, I'm pretty sure that P/P existed beforehand before they figured out they could eke out a few hundred more DPS with scepter. It's not a matter of disbelieving you, it's a matter of having seen the previous step in the process.

Either way, I suspect ArenaNet is likely to conclude that completely wiping out axe (and sword's use by condi WB) was not the intended result.

My apologies then I thought the dps difference would be more substantial. May I ask, did the other builds with similar dps also use the warrior relic?

[Gaiawolf.8261]

20 minutes ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

My apologies then I thought the dps difference would be more substantial. May I ask, did the other builds with similar dps also use the warrior relic?

The P/T + P/P build uses Fractal relic. Here is the bench if you're interested.

https://dps.report/qxOj-20240304-173653_golem

 

[Mukizo.1269]

34 minutes ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

The P/T + P/P build uses Fractal relic. Here is the bench if you're interested.

https://dps.report/qxOj-20240304-173653_golem

 

Appreciate it

[Gaiawolf.8261]

Quote

Guardians use pistols to ignite their foes with a hail of bullets, unleashing justice from afar.

Sorry, I just had a laugh at this in game quote. Did the concept team forget to inform the balance team of this?

Edited March 17 by Gaiawolf.8261