mesmer MH sword

[Entropo.1524]

i think mesmer main hand sword is one of the casualties of the weapon master update, before it was the go to power main hand weapon even tho it was a bit clunky to use with sword2 making u stationary .

cut to today dagger straight up just just outclasses main hand sword. it deals more dmg on average it has an easier access to clones (dagger 2 5sec cd vs sword 3 12secs cd) and its distance, 
i am a huge fan of the leap but its not enough honestly to make me want to use the weapon, the distortion in sword 2 is a great defensive ability for open world and pvp but usually the off hand weapons always offer a defensive option, i seriously think sword needs some love  here is 3 things that i think could make sword better :

- being able to move while using sword 2 would be great 
- make the sword 3 useful in genera or more fun l, the leap dmg from virtuoso is great but the normal version is legit unusable apart from its clone generating abilities and as a lockdown ability in pvp in general the virtuoso version feels like a direct upgrade of the sword 3 
- the third auto in the chain has most of the power budget which makes it feel so awful if u cancel it, it would be great if the power budget was split among the 3 of them making them all deal slightly more dmg to boonless foes 

im not claiming this is objective but this is generally how i feel, i certainly dont want the days of sword being the only main hand weapon we play but i dont want it to be weak either, lmk if u disagree with anything i wrote 

Edited January 30 by Entropo.1524

[Mevelios.4809]

What I don't get is why is there still a split between virtuoso's Blade leap & every other mesmer's Illusionary leap. Mainhand sword doesn't compare against the dagger, it's a well-know fact; the crippling leap I'd use in PvE, the immobilizing swap I'd use in PvP. Even then, the melee imperative, the fewer targets affected and the lower damages (even with the leap) wouldn't make it more interesting at least in PvE. The availability of any boon ruins the last autoattack in the chain, though that's only fair - it's a free boon rip.

1 hour ago, Entropo.1524 said:

- being able to move while using sword 2 would be great

Such skills are usually tied to a forced movement or a forced immobilization, personally I'm fine with it as-is. Enabling movement could come at the cost of damages for a weapon that's already on the weaker side, so...

1 hour ago, Entropo.1524 said:

- make the dmg of sword 3 more frontloaded, as in the dmg comes from the first cast of the ability not of just the teleport or at least split the dmg between them, because sometimes swaping place with the clone is just not feasable and u end up missing out on dmg

That one I don't get - there are no damages on Swap or Returning edge. Maybe you were thinking of the conditions they bring?

1 hour ago, Entropo.1524 said:

- the third auto in the chain has most of the power budget which makes it feel so awful if u cancel it, it would be great if the power budget was split among the 3 of them making them all deal slightly more dmg to boonless foes

That thing I'm fine with, it's a pain in PvP/WvW but still consider it fair for PvE. There could indeed be a damage bonus against boonless foes on the first & second attacks of the chain to bring it closer in line with the dagger, but in any case the boon rip shouldn't be removed from the chain finisher - it's a worthwhile utility.

[Entropo.1524]

17 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

That one I don't get - there are no damages on Swap or Returning edge. Maybe you were thinking of the conditions they bring?

mb lol, i was only talking about the virtuoso version of the ability and i phrased it wrong. the normal version of the ability is just straight up useless in most cases

Edited January 30 by Entropo.1524

[Mevelios.4809]

44 minutes ago, Entropo.1524 said:

the normal version of the ability is just straight up useless in most cases

A few years ago it had meaning for PvP, and could open up a window of opportunity by immobilizing the target; still usable today, although obviously very inconvenient. The weapon didn't age well with a not-so-determined identity; capable of stripping boons, offering an evade frame, leaping to the target... There are still cases in which it can help a bit, but it fell behind over time and I still feel like reducing Blurred frenzy's duration (and its damages accordingly) was a mistake!

[phokus.8934]

Sword 1:  Decrease or remove the after cast on the third hit.  Removing a boon on the third hit doesn't flow well today.  I wish it did more or moved to the second chain with the third chain hitting harder with no boons or only having one or two.

Sword 2:  Blurred Frenzy has seen quite a bit of negative changes over the years, primarily in damage.  It needs a damage increase because it acts as a utility weapon rather than a damaging one.

Sword 3:  Nothing to change here other than Virtuoso sword 3 swap needs to immobilize instead of cripple.

 

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

I have the same sentiment, Dagger simply outclasses Sword in everything: damage output, clone generation and range.

Obviously range is out of the question as we can't take the range out of Dagger nor make Sword become ranged (or could we?). So Sword could be compensated in damage output and/or clone generation instead. 

Sword 3 could be changed to Virtuoso's version entirely, but after the successful hit it creates 2 Clones instead. This way it still acts as a gap closer/engage ability, but now with a bonus of preparing 2/3 of a Shatter for you if it hits. And power builds love Shattering!

As for Sword 2, 2 things could happen. Either remove the immobility, or keep it but make the Blur a full Distortion.

 

And my biggest pet peeve ever since EoD: Why none of Sword's (main and off hand) attacks are "Blade"? We're literally mincing foes with the very embodiment of a bladed weapon. Adding Blade to any of Sword attacks won't threaten Dagger's place as the meta choice, but it does add diversity to Virtuoso builds. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

I'm a little bothered that mesmers still only have two options in melee, a sword and as of PoF an axe. I understand it though, we really shouldn't be in melee combat. But it does feel like if they're going to add weapons perhaps they should have started there. "Oh but the mesmer needs a support weapon!" Are you sure about that? I think the mesmer might actually need some other things first.

8 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

As for Sword 2, . . . keep it but make the Blur a full Distortion.

I'm at a loss for why this hasn't been done already. When GW2 launched there was a LOT of unique, niche abilities that were tied to a single skill or a single trait. Over time though a lot of those were consolidated and streamlined. This was not one of them. There is only ONE skill in the game that gives Blur, Mes MH Sw 2, and the only reason I can think of NOT to change it to distortion is because they do not want it to benefit in any way from traits that also benefit distortion. So no cleansing on Sword 2, no granting aegis on sword 2, and that's just the two I could find on a cursory search. Sword 2 is kneecapped, has been for a long time, and for no other reason that no one at Anet cares, or more likely given the fact that Mesmers always seem to get shafted, it's left that way intentionally.

[Mevelios.4809]

32 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'm a little bothered that mesmers still only have two options in melee, [...]. "Oh but the mesmer needs a support weapon!" Are you sure about that? I think the mesmer might actually need some other things first.

Definitely sure about that, yes. That topic has been discussed and now it's a done thing with beta over, so let's move forward! 😉

32 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I'm at a loss for why [replacing blur with distorsion] hasn't been done already. When GW2 launched there was a LOT of unique, niche abilities that were tied to a single skill or a single trait. [...] This was not one of them.

Wasn't actually the reason of differentiating them an old trait that's been removed since then? Pretty sure I read that up a while ago. Anyway, today it could definitely be merged; not even PvP/WvW would feel much of a difference IMO, although the opinion of their regulars would be better than mine on this topic since I'm more of a PvE player in this game - and there are still competitive splits if need be. Inspiring distorsion indeed doesn't work on the mesmer itself, while the single aegis for allies won't completely shut down a burst; it could turn the sword into a decent option for support if it were to offer distorsion, between ripping boons & providing aegis to the group.

Edited January 30 by Mevelios.4809

[ShadowKatt.6740]

15 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Wasn't actually the reason of differentiating them an old trait that's been removed since then?

Oh I couldn't even begin to guess. It might have way back when before traits were completely overhauled, but that was a loooooooong time ago. I don't remember anything from back then to be honest, except that it existed and I don't miss having to spend gold on books for traits anymore. But agreed, there's zero excuse anymore. Might even be deserving of its own thread to be ignored.

[phokus.8934]

Blurred Frenzy did apply distortion which made you immune to current conditions which they changed to Blur.  I certainly wouldn't mind if they changed it back but I don't see them making any positive changes to Mesmer that are worthwhile.

[katte nici.9483]

Blurr counts as evasion and can trigger on evade effects and traits.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

2 hours ago, katte nici.9483 said:

Blurr counts as evasion and can trigger on evade effects and traits.

Okay, since you seem most familiar, does Distortion also trigger On Evade effects and traits or is Blur getting a leg up here that we're not seeing?

[phokus.8934]

39 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Okay, since you seem most familiar, does Distortion also trigger On Evade effects and traits or is Blur getting a leg up here that we're not seeing?

Distortion isn't an evade so no.

[katte nici.9483]

I agree with phokus

[Curunen.8729]

OH sword 5 player cast is really stupid. Tiny hit radius and then a phantasm that only works on stationary npcs.

I'd rather have the old leap back on the phantasm.

 

BF regarding audio I just want it to be silent again in terms of player voice. It used to be silent, then it became so every single time at least on female asura is that battle cry - I don't mind on the odd occasion but on every time kills the smooth vibe of the weapon and the main reason I always drop it when trying it again.

It also looks odd with the faster animation that came with the shorter evade frame. It used to feel so elegant, now with the "perma quickness" and battle cry it's lost some of that.

I don't know the solution as we aren't going backwards, and these are pretty niche subjective issues so I don't mind if never touching sword again so long as we get a few new melee/mobility/utility weapons in the future.

Also definitely agree all relevant skills should count as blades (though I don't personally care for virtuoso), because it makes no sense for them not to.

[Mell.4873]

I think people forget Fencer's Finesse exists, with this trait the main-hand Sword is better. There is a small exception, which is pairing it with Snowcrows rotation which only needs off-hand sword to maintain 10 stacks. 

The truth is with a normally end game boss fight sword is better. If you want to fight golems sure main-hand dagger.

I will go further, phantasms only inherit raw stats so hitting your phantasm skills while having stat buffs is the key. 

Edited January 31 by Mell.4873

[Mevelios.4809]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think people forget Fencer's Finesse exists, with this trait the main-hand Sword is better.

Even with the 150 ferocity +CD reduction, it doesn't compensate the nearly +50% damages the dagger does when compared to that boosted sword.

[Teknomancer.4895]

12 hours ago, Curunen.8729 said:

I just want it to be silent again in terms of player voice. It used to be silent, then it became so every single time at least on female asura is that battle cry

I never get this at all; it may be specific to the female Asura (which I don't have one so can't test).

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I think people forget Fencer's Finesse exists, with this trait the main-hand Sword is better.  (...)

The truth is with a normally end game boss fight sword is better.

(Disclaimer: PvE, OW player with occasional WvW)

I always run that trait with MH sword (rarely with OH tho). I've never really understood all the "sord sux dagr gr8" remarks that are not just here but all over the forums any time Mesmer weapon choice comes up. Yes the dagger is good overall, but in actual practice it has a few issues that often make me hesitate to choose it.

Using a ranged weapon, your targets can and will move so it will miss (except D2 which locks on but only for the return pass, awkward) or worse, get reflected. I especially hate D3 being ground-targeted with a tiny stationary AoE-over-time. It feels clumsy to use, rarely does more than a fraction of a second's damage to anything moving, and (without snap-to-target enabled) aiming that little reticle disrupts the best thing dagger has going for it: output speed. By comparison GS3's ground-targeted damage instantly spikes a larger area (240>180), instead of being dribbled out over time in one tiny spot that can be (and usually is) simply moved away from. For me, D3 is often very close to being a wasted skill slot.

Forget numbers for a moment. MH sword has no ground-targeting, which IMO makes using the weapon feel smoother (despite its rooting annoyances) since you don't have to keypress-mouse-keypress to do damage. To those who say to use the dagger in melee range that still applies, and then why choose a ranged weapon at all? If Weapon A does more damage but using it isn't ergonomically as smooth as using Weapon B, I will almost always choose B because actual keyboard-operated combat is nothing like pounding on a golem, as we all know. The fewer times I have to mash a skill's button to get the desired results the better. Repeatedly mashing the same button is a very bad habit which can cause you to interrupt other skills, and it's best if the mouse isn't involved at all.

And let's not even get into the annoying chorus of invisible owls that hoot along with every dagger skill you use. 🙄

Edited January 31 by Teknomancer.4895
clarity

[Entropo.1524]

32 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Using a ranged weapon, your targets can and will move so it will miss (except D2 which locks on but only for the return pass, awkward) or worse, get reflected. I especially hate D3 being ground-targeted with a tiny stationary AoE-over-time. It feels clumsy to use, rarely does more than a fraction of a second's damage to anything moving, and (without snap-to-target enabled) aiming that little reticle disrupts the best thing dagger has going for it: output speed. By comparison GS3's ground-targeted damage instantly spikes a larger area (240>180), instead of being dribbled out over time in one tiny spot that can be (and usually is) simply moved away from. For me, D3 is often very close to being a wasted skill slot.

i dont get this at all, u can use your dagger while being in mele with the target and it wont miss, so what if u play sword mh and the target is walking away? u will just not deal dmg ~
dagger  3 is a stationary ability that pulses dmg around with a very generous cd and an even more generous hitbox, sure it often wont trigger full dmg on moving targets but just few frames and its already way better than whatever sword can bring 

this isnt hating on sword, sword and dagger fit the same niche which is a power main hand weapon. while dagger is just pure dmg  in pve the utility offered by sword doesnt come close to the ease of use dagger offers and the dmg it does either, elite spec weapons were always stronger on average than base weapons cause u had to commit to use them. at the moment we have the smooth dagger that can generate clones 60%~ faster has a pulsing dmg field in d3 and does distance dmg  there is very little reason to use sword over it pve 

 

40 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

Forget numbers for a moment

we cant, because frankly sword should have way higher damage or at least on par to that of dagger simply because it has forced immo and its mele and the cleave is not that great either 

[Solo.6873]

21 hours ago, phokus.8934 said:

Blurred Frenzy did apply distortion which made you immune to current conditions which they changed to Blur.  I certainly wouldn't mind if they changed it back but I don't see them making any positive changes to Mesmer that are worthwhile.

IIRC the sword was also nerfed because it was triggering the " on distortion" traits. You know Anet can't let mesmer have synergy. That's not allowed 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

16 minutes ago, Solori.6025 said:

IIRC the sword was also nerfed because it was triggering the " on distortion" traits. You know Anet can't let mesmer have synergy. That's not allowed 

I was curious so I went back to see the changelog and....you're right. In fact it was done basically immediately after launch.

[Mevelios.4809]

Just look at that changelog. Nerfs after nerfs, to bring it to today's topic - how underwhelming the weapon is, despite its utilities, in comparison to other power options. It really didn't get much love! 😆

[Mell.4873]

13 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Even with the 150 ferocity +CD reduction, it doesn't compensate the nearly +50% damages the dagger does when compared to that boosted sword.

Depends on your build. Chronomancers main source of damage is Shatters and Phantasms so maintaining that Ferocity is key.

Power Virtuoso is all about Greatsword so equally Sword + Sword offhand would be better in most cases for your opening move.

 

It's more I don't think sword needs changing, maybe a selectable skill for non-Virtuosos to pick between the leap or teleport.

Edited January 31 by Mell.4873

[Mevelios.4809]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Depends on your build. Chronomancers main source of damage is Shatters and Phantasms so maintaining that Ferocity is key.

Power Virtuoso is all about Greatsword so equally Sword + Sword offhand would be better in most cases for your opening move.

No, I can only disagree. Dagger skills are instant (besides Bladecall's very short animation) while the sword is plagued by lengthy aftercasts and blur's channeling, during which you could fit in extra dagger autoattacks. The sword chain would supposedly cover whatever damages are lacking from the rest, yet any test on golem lets you see the surprising gap: Unstable bladestorm is instant and does the damages on its own of both Blurred frenzy & Blade leap if we're only talking about an opener - let alone if we're not talking virtuoso but chronomancer here, doing no damages on the third skill (without mentioning any boon removed with the chain finisher comes at the cost of a fourth of its damages). And Fencer's finesse does not affect your phantasms, only your base stats matter from your gear; your sigils or traits (unless specified, like Phantasmal force) do not influence them.

Edited February 1 by Mevelios.4809

[Mell.4873]

17 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

No, I can only disagree. Dagger skills are instant (besides Bladecall's very short animation) while the sword is plagued by lengthy aftercasts and blur's channeling, during which you could fit in extra dagger autoattacks. The sword chain would supposedly cover whatever damages are lacking from the rest, yet any test on golem lets you see the surprising gap (Unstable bladestorm is instant and does the damages on its own of both Blurred frenzy & Blade leap if we're only talking about an opener). And Fencer's finesse does not affect your phantasms, only your base stats matter from your gear; your sigils or traits (unless specified, like Phantasmal force) do not influence them.

Hmmm I haven't tested Fencers finesse, I guess I will just say it only impacts Shatters.

Most of the time I look at arc for the highest damage skill is the F1 shatter followed by whatever the number 2 skills on Dagger or Sword. I don't think the in final analysis they are very different. Sometimes Sword is easier to use, other times Dagger is easier to use.

The key to sword conundrum is triggering 10 Stacks of Fencer's Finesse. If you can do it with off-hand sword alone then perfect.