Ranger and war are currently completly op.

[Myror.7521]

@Shagie.7612 fair enough. But is something like warr realy OP? I still think its not. In current Balance i feel nothing is realy OP. Even deadeye (my mosted hated class to Play against) feels kinda not too broken xd

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

woe is me those poor warriors only ranging somewhere between good to overpowered since the defense rework

it's so rough being one

Warriors are taking defense because strength, arms and tactics don't do anything.

I'm not tired of this constant (Warrior is too X) merry go round, but if y'all are:

Which one do y'all want? Be honest. Do you want to get hit for 10k decapitate/eviscerate/arcing slices, or do you want to have to throw two people at a duelist? (It's not three people. Don't let them lie to you, 2v1 works just fine.)

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Something would be very wrong if you weren't subjected to those guaranteed deaths.

Do you not see how weird it is that you're willing to justify builds that guarantee death as normal gameplay but have reservations against staff warrior?  Not that I mind, just maybe be willing to apply that with some measure of reasonableness across the board?

If high burst damage is how you want to fight warriors, then advocate for that so their damage delivery is better and less prone to being reduced to nothing by single condition procs. If you want them to not hit you very hard with skills that are more telegraphed than vindicators, then they should have mitigation. Which one do you want? If it is problematic to y'all that every warrior you've had to contend with has been some tanky variant that sits on node until you get bored, that probably means that the other ways of playing warrior don't work as well, no? 

I'm not saying the solution to this is more buffs at this time, ofc. But pick which kind of warrior you want to fight. I'm not a fan of getting greatsword/arc divider and the like nerfed because it hits people too hard, then having to justify not using it and picking up staff instead. The reason for that should be obvious. 

 

Edited March 18 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Flowki.7194]

16 hours ago, AlPower.2476 said:

core engi (except old flamethrower)? weaver (except fa)? old herald? 

tempest skill ceiling is probly the lowest between all specs. 

the fact that cata/tempest are harder than staff warrior doesn't mean he's hard at all lol

Edit:

Before we start a senseless argument, let me start saying that difficulty depends on the players. For ME, I wasn't even able to play daredevil, any kind of them, (probly mostly due to I play using action camera). Years ago when I was a meta-slave I enjoyed Sword Weaver. I agree that Ele (Weaver and core overall) deserves more love as for reward/riks playstyle. But we cannot wrap Tempest with them 'cause tempest is a bunker machine of spamming auras/conditions without much effort. that's all. Probly Sword Weaver and 4 kits core engi has been the most button smashers classes that I've ever tried in both, PvP & PvE (and still can't play daredevil tho)

I don't like this kind of argues. But If you ask weaver or core buffs I'm with you. Nothing agaisnt ele itself, cheers

I agree, tempest has the easiest sustain out of all ele specs at current, but it is built on the foundations of a support, so it is a lot more fitting to compare it to other support specs and their hyrbid/dps specs. Staff tempest is not an easy support, it is a kiting support, I've played core gaurd and all possible rev support specs. Core gaurd and rev pure support specs have ALOT more "toe to toe" mechanics, which in ways, is more forgiving. Core gaurd is mechanically easier than both tempest and rev. Unfortunately most other support specs are completely unviable as full support, so I can't comment on them. But as far as my experiance goes, full support core gaurd is the easiest, and its a close tie on staff tempest/rev full support (I won't give 1000 word essay on why, it just is).

 

Tempest as a DPS on scepter or d/d is a whole other thing, becuase we can now compare that to all the other "support builds" that are bad at full support, yet good as a dps. So now we are comparing dps support tempest with dps support rev, druid, and specter (core dps gaurd doesnt really exist, but ive seen it, and its not hard, just not very effective). I've played them all, and its this: Specter is the easiest, so bloated with scepter 3, tempest is very similar in mechanical difficulty to druid, but vindi/core rev are harder (demon+vent etc). Tempest on power is no more difficult mechanically, but more punishing with lower sustain, so that doesnt make it "more difficult". Druid is not "easy" on a mechanical level (unlike say bladesworne), but its sustain is so good that being semi compitant makes it the current most rewarding, being why their is a druid on every far, almost every game, not a tempest.

 

Power weaver is no more difficult to play than scepter cata, and certainly not harder to play than hammer cata. The thing about power weaver is the attunement swap CDs lock you out of instant access to X off hand if the situation suddenly changes (say +1 for example). Weaver is highly unrelaible in dynamic fights, and that is not the same as difficulty, it is simply limited through badly implimented mechanics that have the reverse intended effect. The condi weaver sustain of not so long ago was even easier sustain than tempest. However, in relation to other specs, all of ele specs have a moderate to high skill floor depending on the spec (this is where somebody says condi cata). Obviously things like power untamed, herald, vindi, power mirage, and holo, also have moderate to high entry level skill floors. Rev also has a high skill ceiling, I flat out disagree with your statements in the other thread, it has both CD and energy to manedge. Any thief understands that learning curve (low risk of stealth aside), yet the rev also has 1 or 2 extra legend panels to contend with. Power vindi/heralds are just like power cata/weavers etc.. 9/10 are going to melt in under 20 seconds, but people only ever remember and complain about that 1 that was good. High threat WB's are a dime a dozen, we all know why.

 

There are only about 5 specs with specific weapon sets that have both a moderate to high skill floor, and a high skill ceiling, while not being completely broken in risk/reward (obviosuly that last part rules DD/DE thief out). They all vary in current effectiveness (hammer cata compared to holo for example). Ontop of that, some are high skill floor but have toxic af mechanics, such as power mirage daze spam, which in turm makes jump trades almost completely one sided, which erodes its skill ceiling. Many of the other specs and some entire classes have rediculously low skill floors, and have been made increasingly more effective; pretty much all of current popular warrior, necro and gaurd specs.

 

If you can't see it now you never will. Anet has systamatically nerfed the effectiveness of some more complex specs AND buffed the effectiveness of some less complex specs. Proof, title thread, and that 9/10 rangers that are not druid.. are SLB, the laymen power untamed.

 

- When power cata was meta, no average cata required a 2v1 to kill, ever (especially not hammer). That is why ele was better in meta than this current low effort high sustain bs. Just going back 1 year, any power cata requiring a 2v1, was a plat player being MMR'd with low golds, same with power untamed. They were rare.

 

 

Edited March 18 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

If it is problematic to y'all that every warrior you've had to contend with has been some tanky variant that sits on node until you get bored, that probably means that the other ways of playing warrior don't work as well, no? 

What? I don't think most people have a problem with warrior being a relatively tanky sidenode build at all.
It's simply a matter of degree. Druid's getting dunked tomorrow for that very reason.

And look at this, you've got warrior players here who think staff, something that makes you nearly immortal, should also have a second CC on it? That it isn't good enough already? The only silly thing about the weapon is that with 1 unblockable stack, it removes itself immediately from the weakness application. And that's more of a design issue than something making it weak.

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm not saying the solution to this is more buffs at this time, ofc.

But you are though.
Warrior players are completely lost in their own sauce and think the class is garbage, when it's not and hasn't been for a long time, and therefore it deserves everything it has and is immune to any sort of balancing criticism because one power build isn't very good.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

9 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

What? I don't think most people have a problem with warrior being a relatively tanky sidenode build at all.
It's simply a matter of degree. Druid's getting dunked tomorrow for that very reason.

And look at this, you've got warrior players here who think staff, something that makes you nearly immortal, should also have a second CC on it? That it isn't good enough already? The only silly thing about the weapon is that with 1 unblockable stack, it removes itself immediately from the weakness application. And that's more of a design issue than something making it weak.

But you are though.
Warrior players are completely lost in their own sauce and think the class is garbage, when it's not and hasn't been for a long time, and therefore it deserves everything it has and is immune to any sort of balancing criticism because one power build isn't very good.

So having 1 great core trait line and 1 almost 100% mandatory one solely for utility with the other three core traitlines sitting in the trash heap means we shouldn't be asking for those three core traitlines to get looked at?

Cool.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 Go full namaste on them.

[Shagie.7612]

10 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

So having 1 great core trait line and 1 almost 100% mandatory one solely for utility with the other three core traitlines sitting in the trash heap means we shouldn't be asking for those three core traitlines to get looked at?

What are you even talking about?

Everyone has a meta build, welcome to how balance has been for a long time now. The gap between meta specs might be narrow but the difference between good and bad builds is larger than it's ever been. It sucks, I wish it weren't the case, but it affects everyone.

You think anyone plays Retribution, Salvation, Corruption, Herald, or Renegade? Nah you play Dev/Invo/Vindi or you might as well not play the class at all.

All I've said is that staff warrior builds are overtuned, and there's a bunch of people here immediately on the defensive about how it's fair and warrior needs it because they're convinced the class is still really bad when that hasn't been true for quite some time now, across multiple different builds that were subsequently nerfed because they were overtuned. Staff warrior's just the next one.

Edited March 19 by Shagie.7612

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Warrior players are completely lost in their own sauce and think the class is garbage, when it's not and hasn't been for a long time, and therefore it deserves everything it has and is immune to any sort of balancing criticism because one power build isn't very good.

I mean it's like

almost -all- the DPS builds because the power weapons don't have good damage delivery, and the traits that would enable those power builds get shut down by a single stack of weakness or blind. 

The one power build you're talking about is probably my pet grievance, we can keep it honest, I'll admit I ring the alarm about that a lot. I will keep doing that until it works.The issue with that build, however, is due to a couple of fundamental design problems that plague the class as a whole.

The issue is more complicated than misplaced Ragu. See below~

Quote

What? I don't think most people have a problem with warrior being a relatively tanky sidenode build at all.
It's simply a matter of degree. Druid's getting dunked tomorrow for that very reason.

I don't agree with the first bolded sentence. Otherwise this wouldn't have happened:

Quote

across multiple different builds that were subsequently nerfed because they were overtuned.

None of those builds that were nerfed "because they were overtuned" see significant play anymore. They got nerfed off the map entirely. Forgive me for having reservations about the nature of the complaints. It kind of seems that people expect warrior to be a certain level of effective that is under "somewhat", and think something's wrong when it exceeds that. I'd love to be wrong about that though.

The second one though- Okay. Let's take that argument at face value. Elaborate. What's overperforming on the weapon set? What do you think is too effective? Let's say  you are the balance dev here. What do you roll back, and why do you roll it back? If your intent is to make staff warrior slightly/moderately easier to kill but still intend for it to play the sidenoding role, what's on the chopping block?

Quote

You think anyone plays Retribution, Salvation, Corruption, Herald, or Renegade? Nah you play Dev/Invo/Vindi or you might as well not play the class at all.

I'm not willing to settle for being forced to take 2/3s of my traitlines just to play the game, and I don't think you should be settling for that either. One bad balancing doesn't justify complacency with another. That aside, a ton of classes don't get hardlocked into 2/3s of their traitlines, and even revenant has fringe builds that can deviate from the above and still work well. 

I am especially not willing to settle for 2/3s of my traitlines being locked in if the builds that arise because of that constantly get complained about because they're doing the thing anet is forcing them to do. If you say it's a matter of degrees, you need to be surgical with what you claim needs adjusting. You know how Anet balances. I'd like to play the game for more than a couple months out of the year. If we're gonna keep spitting out weird bunker duelist builds that work for thirty days then get dumpstered because people can't deal with warrior sidenoding, maybe we should be fixing the other weapons so there's room to still play while Anet tries to figure out what people like engaging with. 

I see people playing the bolded above often, by the way. It's only renegade that has wretched balancing atm.  I only see corruption as part of  a very specific herald build, and I only see salvation as part of a very specific vindi build, but I still think your attempt to equivocate this with warrior is lacking because those variants exist and work at high level. There's more flexibility with revenant than there is with warrior when it comes to builds. 

Also, Renegade should be viable. Instead of leveraged as a weight to hush other specs trying to get balanced properly. Yknow.

Quote

And look at this, you've got warrior players here who think staff, something that makes you nearly immortal, should also have a second CC on it? That it isn't good enough already? The only silly thing about the weapon is that with 1 unblockable stack, it removes itself immediately from the weakness application. And that's more of a design issue than something making it weak.

I don't think staff is undertuned at all outside of the zerker burst doing 1k, because I'd like to play it on glass builds (because greatsword is wretched, see above re: the power weapons kind of suck.). We can agree on that at least.

Also I don't accept your framing. It's not immortal. It can stall 1v1s, but that is the role of a duelist, is it not? 

3 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

All I've said is that staff warrior builds are overtuned, and there's a bunch of people here immediately on the defensive about how it's fair and warrior needs it because they're convinced the class is still really bad when that hasn't been true for quite some time now, across multiple different builds that were subsequently nerfed because they were overtuned. Staff warrior's just the next one.

Which of the builds that comprise this:

Quote

they're convinced the class is still really bad when that hasn't been true for quite some time now, across multiple different builds

survived? That is why they're defensive.

Quote

But you are though.

No~ What I said is what I meant. One, or the other. I don't really care which way I have to play warrior between high damage and high tank, but one way needs to exist. I'm just marginally annoyed by the constant cycle of  "tank war build pops up, people complain about it until it is useless in the meta, then people are quiet until the next tank war build pops up" , all while the glassiest way to play the warrior specs get their damage quietly reeled back in weird patches and the skills that are most likely to hit players get overlooked for balance passes consistently.   If it's a matter of degrees, walk that walk instead of just talking.  

 

Edited March 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shagie.7612]

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'd like to play the game for more than a couple months out of the year.

Boy are you sure in luck then because warrior's had a strong if not meta build since shortly after the EoD launch in Feb 2022 lol. Followed by the banner rework and condi spellbreaker, then the defense rework, followed by czerk, followed by the now staff spellbreaker. It got pushed out a few times in between there by Cata and Druid as the number one meta pick but never bad.
Everyone who plays this game has this terrible problem where if their preferred class isn't the #1 pick within its role, it's garbage. Everybody does it, from the literal rank 1 to the most inexperienced, and it's not ever been accurate, people just fotm really hard because it's easy to do, so picks only reflect that.

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

None of those builds that were nerfed "because they were overtuned" see significant play anymore. They got nerfed off the map entirely.

They don't see play anymore because they all perform the same role and staff is clearly better. If you're gonna say Rev has fringe builds, then you absolutely must throw condi zerk in there too. It's not nuts like it was, but it's not terrible and if condi herald qualifies then condi zerk is way beyond that. If somehow czerk is "off the map" then how is condi herald not? It's just as uncommon, if not moreso, and significantly more niche.

As far as changing it, it's probably just too much overall healing for a warrior not investing in healing power. I don't think staff has bad design or the skills do too much or anything.

[Saiyan.1704]

On 3/15/2024 at 6:55 PM, Zuda.4850 said:

Absolutely agree. You need to outnumber the staff spellbreaker to have a chance, and it still survives for too long. I thought that Druid was bad but manageable. Staff warrior is even harder to kill

(in regards to solo sPvP shenanigans, not AT or mAT)
Why is no one talking about how not-so-mobile warrior is? 1v2ing a side-node class isn't the only way to "counter" them.

Maybe I'm showing my class bias here but as a WB, I almost never focus a War because of how much of a waste of time that is... with or without staff. I can literally just rotate to a different node, kill who ever is fastest to kill... maybe even get a second kill, then I would 'maybe' THINK about focusing a warrior but only if it's worth doing.

DE/Mesmer/Scrapper/?Herald?/WB, are generally the better dps roamers in the game that's able to run circles around War. I think what makes this current meta toxic is we have an over abundance of side-noders like Druid, Ele, and now Chrono Supp being an option.

Don't get me wrong.... when it comes to AT/MAT, Druid stacked with War stacked with flavor of the month Chrono support sounds pretty toxic af.......

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

43 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

They don't see play anymore because they all perform the same role and staff is clearly better. If you're gonna say Rev has fringe builds, then you absolutely must throw condi zerk in there too. It's not nuts like it was, but it's not terrible and if condi herald qualifies then condi zerk is way beyond that. If somehow czerk is "off the map" then how is condi herald not? It's just as uncommon, if not moreso, and significantly more niche.

Nope, not what I'm saying. I'm well aware condi herald is a super niche build, and condi herald -is- off the map. My point was that corruption works in one combination in the fringes. Condi and power herald work. Conversely, even condi zerk is hardlocked into defense/discipline. Hence, the "rev is more flexible" angle. 

Quote

they all perform the same role

He's beginning to believe.

Why is that, do you think? 

Maybe there's a problem with that?

Quote

Boy are you sure in luck then because warrior's had a strong if not meta build since shortly after the EoD launch in Feb 2022 lol. Followed by the banner rework and condi spellbreaker, then the defense rework, followed by czerk, followed by the now staff spellbreaker. It got pushed out a few times in between there by Cata and Druid as the number one meta pick but never bad.
Everyone who plays this game has this terrible problem where if their preferred class isn't the #1 pick within its role, it's garbage. Everybody does it, from the literal rank 1 to the most inexperienced, and it's not ever been accurate, people just fotm really hard because it's easy to do, so picks only reflect that.

I'd like flexibility instead of chasing fotm because Anet's inability to make power damage work (and, arguably, its aversion to it working) forces warriors to take Rabid amulet and Defense / Discipline. Staff provides enough sustain to work as a supplement for some of the still-kind-of-useless damage weapons, which is why I am partial.

I'm totally fine playing in the fringes. The problem is that the ways to play warrior that are "in the fringes" are there because of mechanical problems that the players have to circumvent by running bunker garbage. It's not the fact that they aren't meta that is the problem. Trust me, I'd love to not be here writing paragraphs about why I shouldn't visit the shadow realm again, playing some weird-kitten build that doesn't get scrutinized constantly but still works.  It's that the ones that aren't meta have persistent mechanical issues that haven't been addressed, that keep them significantly less usable, and because of that they all tend to get propped up by the same thing at once, without getting their core issues dealt with.

This time, it's staff. If you'd like to adjust staff, maybe make some adjustment to other things that get ez-shut-down ordinarily, but that can now be played because of staff. Instead of constantly whacking defense warrior on the head for defensing when they only thing it can do is defensing. 

Quote

As far as changing it, it's probably just too much overall healing for a warrior not investing in healing power. I don't think staff has bad design or the skills do too much or anything.

Okay. Let's think that through. How much healing should they give out without investing in healing power?

Keep in mind the following:

• spellbreaker is capped at Lvl 2 bursts
• 3 of the 5 weapon skills don't do any damage/have any offensive pressure. Snap pull isn't updated in the wiki. Its base damage is like 6 or something. 
• All of the heals are under 2k base and can be interrupted. None of the heal skills provide stab, evade, or cleanse poison. 

Where's the line between "good sidenoder" and "bad at 1v1?"

Edited March 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Shagie.7612]

 

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Conversely, even condi zerk is hardlocked into defense/discipline. Hence, the "rev is more flexible" angle. 

 

Bladesworn plays without discipline, I see plenty of people trying strength on staff spb instead, though whether or not that's better is a toss up at this point. Prolly not but who knows. Sure seems like it's in about the same spot when it comes to traitline flexibility across various builds.

46 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Okay. Let's think that through. How much healing should they give out without investing in healing power?

Is this supposed to be some sort of gotcha moment, like you want me to give you actual numbers or something?
Nobody has that information available to them. You want people to do the math for things they don't have enough information to figure out.

I don't know where those numbers should be specifically, none of us do. That'd require knowing a whole lotta things, like whether or not staff builds have a higher winrate, how much more healing they do in a given match relative to other sidenoders, what skills it's coming from, what it means as a tradeoff from another weapon, and so on.

At best, the only valuable information any of us can give is whether or not we think something does too much or too little, whether that's damage, healing, or whatever other category. Anybody who's ever tried to give out actual specific number changes in an mmo is clueless.

[Myror.7521]

Still don't get peops that thinking staff spellbreaker is a Problem. You could very easy shut them down by ...... Play condi focused stuff (with range). Play something with a ton of blinds. Or Play just ranged stuff. 

 

I personaly could relative easy shut them down on Condi Berserker or Spellbreaker played on Greatsword/Dagger,Shield ........ heck even on core warr its good do able kekw xd

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Is this supposed to be some sort of gotcha moment, like you want me to give you actual numbers or something?
Nobody has that information available to them. You want people to do the math for things they don't have enough information to figure out.

No gotchas here, just ballpark it. I'm not looking for specfics or asking you to fix it, just a feel for where you  think the range is that is less nebulous than "too much". We know what healing the staff puts out, and we have frame of reference for prior balancing direction.  Are we talking "skill does 2ish k heals, it should do 1k", or do you think it needs a comparatively lighter tapping, from 2ish to 1.7 or 1.8?

Quote

I don't know where those numbers should be specifically, none of us do. That'd require knowing a whole lotta things, like whether or not staff builds have a higher winrate, how much more healing they do in a given match relative to other sidenoders, what skills it's coming from, what it means as a tradeoff from another weapon, and so on.

We know a couple of these metrics, like the skills the healing is tied to, and what the warrior is potentially not running in that slot, as well as the fact that they lose damage pressure outside of staff burst. We can make an educated guess about where it should be.  

Quote

whether or not staff builds have a higher winrate

We've already arrived at 'staff warrior is a problem' based on people's experience vs it.  This doesn't matter for the thought experiment. Let's just assume it does have a higher winrate. Given the nature of the staff skills and factors like poison and the like, how big a nerf would you have to see in patch notes to think the mark was hit?

Quote

Bladesworn plays without discipline, 

Because the profession mechanic bypasses the need for fast hands, which is 99% of why people take discipline. Dragon trigger essentially forces weapon swap.

Edited March 19 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Update to this discussion @Shagie.7612

Quote

• Path to Victory: Fixed an issue that could cause the level 2 and level 3 versions of this skill to heal for more than intended.

Apparently there was an interaction that made staff heal for more than the tooltip specified. Well, this is embarrassing. 

Reassess now. If it still heals too much my argument is the same.