Punish The Defeatists

[Daenxi.4530]

OK if you are anywhere near an intermediate level player you have probably experienced it, its sPVP, everybody rushes out of the gates like its the 100M Olympic Dash to mid, you consider your chances to be pretty good and you engage if the enemy with confidence and ferocity. However, the enemy teams turns out to be a little bit stronger than you expected, sometimes a lot stronger than you expected, sometimes it so bad you and your team get wiped out at mid. 

Now sometimes the first 2 minutes of fighting at mid is a good indicator of what the end result of the match is and winning the first encounter at mid probably means winning the game overall, however if you play long enough it is possible to see some miraculous turn arounds of bad fortune, I'm talking about WW2 Eastern Front STALINGRAD levels of match reversals, I have seen teams turn around matches of 200-400 and get with 500-400. 
With this being said, could we come up with some way to punish/ give consequences to the defeatist types of tend to kind of just stop playing after a difficult fight and defeat at mid after the first few minutes. I find this type of player really gross as they also have a tendency to blame having a bad team whilst also being the greatest factor contributing to an even worse loss.. Now if that guy continues to play despite being on a 'bad team' and earns (multiple) top stats then maybe they have to right to provide the honest constructive feedback about the teams gameplay during or after that match (even better if the team takes that feedback into account and uses it to win the match.)

With all this said is there maybe someway we can apply some sort of punishment system comparable to 'Dishonour Time out' but instead there could be some sort of programming (I'm not a tech expert so sorry if don't explain it like I actually know how to code) that detects users who don't leave the gate for an extended period of time (which is a clear indicator of giving or going AFK)

What do people think of this as a viable solution, do people even agree on the problem in the first place?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Wish granted. 

"Defeatist" People can't Afk anymore in spawn. 

They now feed the enemy points so the match ends quicker, which means they can flip the coin again faster. 

 

[Daenxi.4530]

21 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Wish granted. 

"Defeatist" People can't Afk anymore in spawn. 

They now feed the enemy points so the match ends quicker, which means they can flip the coin again faster. 

 

Ah the good ol 'Corrupt a Wish' ok so that scenario you explained would incentivise AFK people to continue being AFK so once again maybe there is some sort of way to programme the same so AFKers are either rewards less coins, or even no rewards at all. Or probably more controversially, the team with the AFK, or disconnected player can be awarded a *slight* handicap bonus to the speed of score gaining so players who are not AFK don't get punished for something they do not have control over?

[DanAlcedo.3281]

29 minutes ago, Daenxi.4530 said:

Ah the good ol 'Corrupt a Wish' ok so that scenario you explained would incentivise AFK people to continue being AFK so once again maybe there is some sort of way to programme the same so AFKers are either rewards less coins, or even no rewards at all. Or probably more controversially, the team with the AFK, or disconnected player can be awarded a *slight* handicap bonus to the speed of score gaining so players who are not AFK don't get punished for something they do not have control over?

Thing is. 

You won't believe how stubborn the people are you wanna punish. 

They already hate being there in the first place. (most likely) Making the wall harder to bash in with their heads won't keep them from doing it. They will just try to bash harder. 

As long as only wins count for progression, for example achievements, they won't care about an already lost game. 

They just need to farm wins in a Gamemode that is a coin toss simulator. 

So many achievements required not only some kind of task but you also need to win the game. 

Get rid of that design and people can just play without having 50% of their games being a waste of time by default. 

[Shao.7236]

I do believe that if top stats actually did something like give a gold or w/e people would probably throw less.

A match is on average 10 minutes, it won't hurt the economy since you can make way more than that in less time.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Re Dishonour Time out I like that idea, you gain it after not doing anything for 15 seconds after spawn at base, and it drops when you reengage in a fight after say 10 seconds of combat.  At end of game if you had dishonour flag for more than say 2 minutes in total then you lose all rewards and your name is flagged as dishonourable discharge.

Edited May 3 by Bladestrom.6425

[eXistence.3876]

And you are intelligible for achievements for a time. And up the rewards for participation 

[eXistence.3876]

15 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Re Dishonour Time out I like that idea, you gain it after not doing anything for 15 seconds after spawn at base, and it drops when you reengage in a fight after say 10 seconds of combat.  At end of game if you had dishonour flag for more than say 2 minutes in total then you lose all rewards and your name is flagged as dishonourable discharge.

And up the rewards for participation. And make the individual intelligible for achievements 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

21 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I do believe that if top stats actually did something like give a gold or w/e people would probably throw less.

A match is on average 10 minutes, it won't hurt the economy since you can make way more than that in less time.

ppl gonna scream at this since you can farm top stats.  

 

16 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Re Dishonour Time out I like that idea, you gain it after not doing anything for 15 seconds after spawn at base, and it drops when you reengage in a fight after say 10 seconds of combat.  At end of game if you had dishonour flag for more than say 2 minutes in total then you lose all rewards and your name is flagged as dishonourable discharge.

Devil's Advocate, afk player is better than purposefully feeding and trolling player.  As its +5 every time they just hit 1 a few times to get the dishonor down and then die.  

[Bladestrom.6425]

6 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Devil's Advocate, afk player is better than purposefully feeding and trolling player.  As its +5 every time they just hit 1 a few times to get the dishonor down and then die.  

 If they are afk you are going to lose to a slow lingering death anyway.  Think about it this way:

With no dishonour:  players are free to AFK and literally go do something else and still get a reward and can simply join another game after with no cost.

With Dishonour:

            Players loses rewards

             Player gets dishonours on their record that accumulate over time - no-one will want that

             Forcing the player to reengage or lose rewards means they cant just afk and do something else, they have to put effort in.

             Forcing some players to reengage will mean some will starting fighting again

             Worst case, as you say the player joins and suicides and other team win faster - well you were going to lose anyway, getting a couple minutes of your time back is a good thing, and                  that toxic players has to waste effort running to a fight, getting killed etc etc.

As with anything there is no single magic bullet, toxic will be toxic, but this helps.

[Unknown.6851]

It tilts me when people say you can farm top stats. If you can do that, then always do that. Don't let someone else get all of them and say you can farm top stats lmaoooo

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 hours ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Worst case, as you say the player joins and suicides and other team win faster - well you were going to lose anyway, getting a couple minutes of your time back is a good thing, and      that toxic players has to waste effort running to a fight, getting killed etc etc.

I do agree some dishonor system would be helpful, just don't think they can implement an activity one like this without that also getting abused.  All a player has to do is set auto-run to on or use macro to just keep running out the front door into a wall (like in WvW) until the match ends.  

If they'd increase say node capture points and decrease kill points to say 1-2 it could work out well, however at +5 it's just too tempting to misuse the dishonor system.  I'd rather try to help carry a 4v5 (like if a d/c happens) than have to accept defeat on a 6v4 as someone is now purposefully feeding to avoid dishonor.  

[Flowki.7194]

It doesn't even have to be this complicated. Anet need to lock MMR range to elo, consistant AFkers will fall to bronze, rather than being carried into high silvar/gold by the RNG of who got the plat roamer. More than that, games that feel like less of a steamroll will see less people giving up and going afk.

 

I go afk myself if: Its a clear loss, and the enemy team are try hards who do not allow 1v1s. It's too easy to blame afkers., when in reality those of us who have been here longer, are desensitised to how badly designed the MMR is. Experainced players should not be in the same competitive game as novice players, but that is default in Gw2.

Edited May 4 by Flowki.7194

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Unknown.6851 said:

It tilts me when people say you can farm top stats. If you can do that, then always do that. Don't let someone else get all of them and say you can farm top stats lmaoooo

Golden post.

If more people played like they wanted to be top X on their team this match, we would have better teams, whether or not they actually got the mark.

 

 

 

[Bladestrom.6425]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

It doesn't even have to be this complicated. Anet need to lock MMR range to elo, consistant AFkers will fall to bronze, rather than being carried into high silvar/gold by the RNG of who got the plat roamer. More than that, games that feel like less of a steamroll will see less people giving up and going afk.

 

I go afk myself if: Its a clear loss, and the enemy team are try hards who do not allow 1v1s. It's too easy to blame afkers., when in reality those of us who have been here longer, are desensitised to how badly designed the MMR is. Experainced players should not be in the same competitive game as novice players, but that is default in Gw2.

Afking is a selfish behaviour not a measure if skill, so allowing higher skilled players drop to a lower skill band is unfair  on the players genuinely at that level.  Going by your logic, the bronzers in the other team facing the the fallen higher level player should afk as well!.   

As for your attitude, its not about blame its about the 'i'm not playing because we wont win' attitude.   If everyone was like that half the games would have afkers and pvp would be ruined.  PVP is not about how efficiently you farm your silver and ranking points, its about enjoying combat with other players.  When you selfishly decide to AFK, what you are really doing is sticking it to your team - there is a big difference between 5v5 against a superior team where you can at least still enjoy trying to win some fights, to 4v5 against a superior team where you will get mobbed.

Edited May 5 by Bladestrom.6425

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Afking is a selfish behaviour not a measure if skill, so allowing higher skilled players drop to a lower skill band is unfair  on the players genuinely at that level.  Going by your logic, the bronzers in the other team facing the the fallen higher level player should afk as well!.   

As for your attitude, its not about blame its about the 'i'm not playing because we wont win' attitude.   If everyone was like that half the games would have afkers and pvp would be ruined.  PVP is not about how efficiently you farm your silver and ranking points, its about enjoying combat with other players.  When you selfishly decide to AFK, what you are really doing is sticking it to your team - there is a big difference between 5v5 against a superior team where you can at least still enjoy trying to win some fights, to 4v5 against a superior team where you will get mobbed.

You have some comprehention issues.

 

A good player around less skilled/novice players, has insentive to win, the good player will destroy them all 1v1. A novice/less skilled player surrounded by players with higher skill, has no insentive, due to getting destroyed at every turn. That issue also happens for good solo players who dare to play outside of peak hours. A locked MMR solves this issue by reducing the massive skill gaps in 1 game, reducing land slides, and insentivising people to keep on playing as the game is still close. This is biopsychology 101 for human motivation.

 

I stop playing when the MMR has clearly given us an unfair game AND if the enemy team are so try hard, they can't see the 350-20 score line, and refuse to let me 1v1. If you wan't to continue playing in that setting then you do you. However.. I also "stop" playing when we are steam rolling the enemy 350-20.. I stand around somewhere, don't spawn camp, and let people have 1v1's, or take on 1v1's off point.

 

Do not brand people as selfish for refusing to take part in some of the the extreme outcomes of kitten poor MMR, and a try hard toxic playerbase who will happily spawn camp for 10 min.

 

 

Edited May 5 by Flowki.7194

[Bladestrom.6425]

2 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You have some comprehention issues.

 

A good player around less skilled/novice players, has insentive to win, the good player will destroy them all 1v1. A novice/less skilled player surrounded by players with higher skill, has no insentive, due to getting destroyed at every turn. That issue also happens for good solo players who dare to play outside of peak hours. A locked MMR solves this issue by reducing the massive skill gaps in 1 game, reducing land slides, and insentivising people to keep on playing as the game is still close. This is biopsychology 101 for human motivation.

 

I stop playing when the MMR has clearly given us an unfair game AND if the enemy team are so try hard, they can't see the 350-20 score line, and refuse to let me 1v1. If you wan't to continue playing in that setting then you do you. However.. I also "stop" playing when we are steam rolling the enemy 350-20.. I stand around somewhere, don't spawn camp, and let people have 1v1's, or take on 1v1's off point.

 

Do not brand people as selfish for refusing to take part in some of the the extreme outcomes of kitten poor MMR.

 

You are deliberately conflating issues because you really really want to talk about mmr.  AFKs is a unilateral decision and therefore selfish. 

Edited May 5 by Bladestrom.6425

[Flowki.7194]

1 minute ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

You are deliberately conflating issues because you really really want to talk about mmr.  AFKs is a unilateral decision and therefore selfish. 

It is not unrelated at all. I play over 300 games per season, and in 95% of afk cases, it begins when the person percieves a obvious landslide. The rest is normally DC's or RL issues that came up, and they actually appologise when back for this.

 

Players of less skill will percieve a landslide a lot sooner, becuase they don't have the skill to side node vs that plat SBP/holo who just destroyed them. That is why locked MMRs are important, and will stop lower skill players giving up. They are not giving up "easy".. it is relative.

[Bladestrom.6425]

Just now, Flowki.7194 said:

It is not unrelated at all. I play over 300 games per season, and in 95% of afk cases, it begins when the person percieves a obvious landslide. The rest is normally DC's or RL issues that came up, and they actually appologise when back for this.

 

Players of less skill will percieve a landslide a lot sooner, becuase they don't have the skill to side node vs that plat SBP/holo who just destroyed them. That is why locked MMRs are important, and will stop lower skill players giving up. They are not giving up "easy".. it is relative.

your missing the point because you are a player that values wins over gameplay.

[Flowki.7194]

5 minutes ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

your missing the point because you are a player that values wins over gameplay.

No, you are missing the point becuase you don't realise I value fair play over winning... did you not read this?:

13 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I also "stop" playing when we are steam rolling the enemy 350-20.. I stand around somewhere, don't spawn camp, and let people have 1v1's, or take on 1v1's off point.

 

I am telling you the dominant reason why people go afk is they sense the match is not fair, and players with lower skill sense this a lot sooner, they can't carry.

Edited May 5 by Flowki.7194

[Bladestrom.6425]

6 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You are missing the point becuase you don't realise I value fair play over winning... did you not read this?:

 

I am telling you the dominant reason why people go afk is they sense the match is not fair, and players with lower skill sense this a lot sooner, they can't carry.

No they go afk because they selfishly have decided they wont play because they wont win., wether or not that is because the other team is more skilled is irrelevant. 

I and many many players happily play and don't feel the need to AFK and mostly have fun win or lose, and my win rate like most is just over 50%, why do you think that is?

 

edit, and also what about all the emo quiting that goes on, that is not happening because the player feels its best for his team is it.

Edited May 5 by Bladestrom.6425

[Flowki.7194]

6 minutes ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

No they go afk because they selfishly have decided they wont play because they wont win., wether or not that is because the other team is more skilled is irrelevant. 

I and many many players happily play and don't feel the need to AFK and mostly have fun win or lose, and my win rate like most is just over 50%, why do you think that is?

 

edit, and also what about all the emo quiting that goes on, that is not happening because the player feels its best for his team is it.

Well, it sounds like youre the type of person who could be served feces, and complain others are ungreatful for not eating it. Youre on a high horse buddy.

[Bladestrom.6425]

1 minute ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Well, it sounds like youre the type of person who could be served feces, and complain others are ungreatful for not eating it. Youre on a high horse buddy.

Interesting attitude there.

[Flowki.7194]

10 minutes ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

Interesting attitude there.

It is nothing compared to yours.

 

You say this

23 minutes ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

they selfishly have decided they wont play because they wont win

Then you say this

12 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I and many many players happily play and don't feel the need to AFK and mostly have fun win or lose

If you have fun either way, then it makes no difference if people go AFK. You then call me out (wrongly) for only caring about winning:

29 minutes ago, Bladestrom.6425 said:

you are a player that values wins over gameplay.

That is projection, in reality, it is you who cares the most about wining, or else you wouldn't be ranting about AFKers.. yet you are dressing it up as righteousness

 

26 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I also "stop" playing when we are steam rolling the enemy 350-20.. I stand around somewhere, don't spawn camp, and let people have 1v1's, or take on 1v1's off point.

Cut the bs, admit you want to win, even more so than me, and then you can look at my points more clearly.

Edited May 5 by Flowki.7194

[Bladestrom.6425]

11 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

It is nothing compared to yours.

 

You say this

Then you say this

If you have fun either way, then it makes no difference if people go AFK. You then call me out (wrongly) for only caring about winning:

That is projection, in reality, it is you who cares the most about wining, or else you wouldn't be ranting about AFKers.. yet you are dressing it up as righteousness

 

Cut the bs, admit you want to win, even more so than me, and then you can look at my points more clearly.

ofc i do, and in 10 years i've never felt the need to abandon my team and had quite a few games destroyed by this behaviour (and it has nothing to do with 'eating faeces' as you nastily put it)  You may not like the word selfish, but that's what it is

Selfish

(of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for other people; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.