[Suggestions] Make raids great again!

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group.

It depends I guess what builds the other people are running :)And of course it depends on the boss. A chrono tank is marginally useful in any encounter that doesn't require an actual tank.The most important aspect of a Chrono is distortion sharing that makes some hard encounters easy and there isn't anything like that in any other build.

But a Druid? Not really required, there are better healers in the game. Although now Druid is the best at stacking might so there is that.

I always find it amusing that people associate distortion sharing with Chrono spec, when in fact it's a core mesmer trait (part of the inspiration line). I actually did look at putting distortion sharing into my mirage build, but the dps loss was too great to make it worthwhile.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:That's why I'm curious to know how much harder (if at all) the raids are without a chrono and druid in the group.

It depends I guess what builds the other people are running :)And of course it depends on the boss. A chrono tank is marginally useful in any encounter that doesn't require an actual tank.The most important aspect of a Chrono is distortion sharing that makes some hard encounters easy and there isn't anything like that in any other build.

But a Druid? Not really required, there are better healers in the game. Although now Druid is the best at stacking might so there is that.

I always find it amusing that people associate distortion sharing with Chrono spec, when in fact it's a core mesmer trait (part of the inspiration line). I actually did look at putting distortion sharing into my mirage build, but the dps loss was too great to make it worthwhile.

Also important to mention that the combination of Alacrity+Quickness and the corresponding uptime for both are unparalled on Chrono, and since it doesn't need DPS to be useful, it becomes more than worth it to take inspiration.

Also, I think might stacking is pretty essential for pugs to have an easier time on many of the bosses, so Druids are more or less "required" to everyone that doesn't want to run top tier rotations. Anet seems to be slowly taking the route of taking down unique buffs with the Grace of the Land change, but it's still going to take time until any other classes gets anything like Druid's, and more importantly, Chrono's kit.

[zealex.9410]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Only 1 boss i can see druid and chrono duo and thats because they can cheese mechanics.

[Henry.5713]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Wouldn't say the chrono/druid duo never comes up. People have talked about support balance in length. It simply gets lost between all of the complaints about DPS balance and the recent abundance of whining about how bad the raids are and how terrible the raid community as a whole is. I assume the lower number of such threads overall compared to anything concerning DPS is due to the usual lack of understanding apart from "qT said x is top DPS".The idea about raids failing to properly challenge druids and chronomancers seems a little off to me. Or rather the fact that this is supposed to apply to these two only. Not that healing and supporting in this game is anywhere near as hard as it could. Tahabata Pyrelord from Aion comes to mind.Talking about anyone being challenged here, why would any damage dealer be challenged against the current bosses and their rather forgiving timers? Good damage is more important than in any other game. It allows you to bypass mechanics or even entire phases. There might be less reliance on damage dealers individually but they are still needed for any successful run.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@zealex.9410 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Only 1 boss i can see druid and chrono duo and thats because they can cheese mechanics.

Well, yes? If supports were balanced that would be 0 bosses and in some fights neither class would even be recommended as optimal (assuming classes remain unique and don't go the WoW-way, so that each 1 has a particular something to give to team).

@Henry.5713 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Wouldn't say the chrono/druid duo never comes up. People have talked about support balance in length. It simply gets lost between all of the complaints about DPS balance and the recent abundance of whining about how bad the raids are and how terrible the raid community as a whole is. I assume the lower number of such threads overall compared to anything concerning DPS is due to the usual lack of understanding apart from "qT said x is top DPS".The idea about raids failing to properly challenge druids and chronomancers seems a little off to me. Or rather the fact that this is supposed to apply to these two only. Not that healing and supporting in this game is anywhere near as hard as it could. Tahabata Pyrelord from Aion comes to mind.Talking about anyone being challenged here, why would any damage dealer be challenged against the current bosses and their rather forgiving timers? Good damage is more important than in any other game. It allows you to bypass mechanics or even entire phases. There might be less reliance on damage dealers individually but they are still needed for any successful run.

Healing and support can't be hard here, because allied targetting priority [and let's not even get started on how hard it would be to find an ally amidst some of the fights] is as bad as it could be. Most support is passive and AoE and for good reason; It is also the reason why even supports get benchmarked for DPS, since they are not ever dedicated to supporting, and have to spend their active plays dealing damage while the passive healing kicks in. This is not a problem IMO, the Raid team has done as well as they could with the premises they had to take, but balance is very off among classes which can or can't bring in said passive support.

I agree with the damage part, yet with DPS you can basically take any class and you'll find a build that can fit enough damage dealing within the enrage timers. I must repeat that I'm okay with the class disparity (it's the way to keep classes unique rather than "giving X the same kit Chrono has"), it's just that this game has kitten poor excuses for balance by trying to introduce "endgame" content so late into its development cycle, and the balance team as well as those using their work have to be properly criticized for it (in more than the class forums as well since they apparently don't read it that much anyway).

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Only 1 boss i can see druid and chrono duo and thats because they can cheese mechanics.

Well, yes? If supports were balanced that would be 0 bosses and in some fights neither class would even be recommended as optimal (assuming classes remain unique and don't go the WoW-way, so that each 1 has a particular something to give to team).

@Henry.5713 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Wouldn't say the chrono/druid duo never comes up. People have talked about support balance in length. It simply gets lost between all of the complaints about DPS balance and the recent abundance of whining about how bad the raids are and how terrible the raid community as a whole is. I assume the lower number of such threads overall compared to anything concerning DPS is due to the usual lack of understanding apart from "qT said x is top DPS".The idea about raids failing to properly challenge druids and chronomancers seems a little off to me. Or rather the fact that this is supposed to apply to these two only. Not that healing and supporting in this game is anywhere near as hard as it could. Tahabata Pyrelord from Aion comes to mind.Talking about anyone being challenged here, why would any damage dealer be challenged against the current bosses and their rather forgiving timers? Good damage is more important than in any other game. It allows you to bypass mechanics or even entire phases. There might be less reliance on damage dealers individually but they are still needed for any successful run.

Healing and support can't be hard here, because allied targetting priority [and let's not even get started on how hard it would be to find an ally amidst some of the fights] is as bad as it could be. Most support is passive and AoE and for good reason; It is also the reason why even supports get benchmarked for DPS, since they are not ever dedicated to supporting, and have to spend their active plays dealing damage while the passive healing kicks in. This is not a problem IMO, the Raid team has done as well as they could with the premises they had to take, but balance is very off among classes which can or can't bring in said passive support.

I agree with the damage part, yet with DPS you can basically take any class and you'll find a build that can fit enough damage dealing within the enrage timers. I must repeat that I'm okay with the class disparity (it's the way to keep classes unique rather than "giving X the same kit Chrono has"), it's just that this game has kitten poor excuses for balance by trying to introduce "endgame" content so late into its development cycle, and the balance team as well as those using their work have to be properly criticized for it (in more than the class forums as well since they apparently don't read it that much anyway).

You make a good point about the healing only being aoe based, which would limit the number of mechanics you could put into a raid encounter. Things that would require a single person to get a lot of burst healing could be troublesome given the current gealing spell available.

[Henry.5713]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Only 1 boss i can see druid and chrono duo and thats because they can cheese mechanics.

Well, yes? If supports were balanced that would be 0 bosses and in some fights neither class would even be recommended as optimal (assuming classes remain unique and don't go the WoW-way, so that each 1 has a particular something to give to team).

@Henry.5713 said:

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zealex.9410 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Has anyone (for example) tried clearing the current raids without using either a chrono or a druid?

Examples:

10-guardians only

No Chrono:

Ppl have killed bosses also without weapons.

Things like that don't go very far at all to actually address the issue with balance. Raids were designed for 10 players but can be cleared by a single Chrono and a Druid. Can it be cleared by 2 Dragonhunters? It obviously can be cleared by 10 guardians or by random people, for it was designed around this. Yet Chrono and Druid fail to be "properly challenged" at all by not only Raids but any kind of content whatsoever. I use quotes because I know (and you can call me out on this all day anyway) that it takes a skillful Chrono and/or Druid to actually get the most out of the class. The point still stands, the skilled players can do much more with these classes than they can with anything else. It is also amusing that when a thief stealth solo-ed Sloth it was quickly hotfixed but there are few mechanics that actually push through distortion.

There is no discussion about Chrono+Druid being the official babysitters on this "non-trinity" game, it only remains to be discussed whether or not it's fine that way (and I am personally fine with it, just not fine with people not admitting it and holding the paradoxical position of "Raids are so easy why won't you do it" + "Raids require specific builds and traits because they are not that easy"). It IS easy, IF you have the babysitters.

Wouldn't say the chrono/druid duo never comes up. People have talked about support balance in length. It simply gets lost between all of the complaints about DPS balance and the recent abundance of whining about how bad the raids are and how terrible the raid community as a whole is. I assume the lower number of such threads overall compared to anything concerning DPS is due to the usual lack of understanding apart from "qT said x is top DPS".The idea about raids failing to properly challenge druids and chronomancers seems a little off to me. Or rather the fact that this is supposed to apply to these two only. Not that healing and supporting in this game is anywhere near as hard as it could. Tahabata Pyrelord from Aion comes to mind.Talking about anyone being challenged here, why would any damage dealer be challenged against the current bosses and their rather forgiving timers? Good damage is more important than in any other game. It allows you to bypass mechanics or even entire phases. There might be less reliance on damage dealers individually but they are still needed for any successful run.

Healing and support can't be hard here, because allied targetting priority [and let's not even get started on how hard it would be to find an ally amidst some of the fights] is as bad as it could be. Most support is passive and AoE and for good reason; It is also the reason why even supports get benchmarked for DPS, since they are not ever dedicated to supporting, and have to spend their active plays dealing damage while the passive healing kicks in. This is not a problem IMO, the Raid team has done as well as they could with the premises they had to take, but balance is very off among classes which can or can't bring in said passive support.

I agree with the damage part, yet with DPS you can basically take any class and you'll find a build that can fit enough damage dealing within the enrage timers. I must repeat that I'm okay with the class disparity (it's the way to keep classes unique rather than "giving X the same kit Chrono has"), it's just that this game has kitten poor excuses for balance by trying to introduce "endgame" content so late into its development cycle, and the balance team as well as those using their work have to be properly criticized for it (in more than the class forums as well since they apparently don't read it that much anyway).

You make a good point about the healing only being aoe based, which would limit the number of mechanics you could put into a raid encounter. Things that would require a single person to get a lot of burst healing could be troublesome given the current gealing spell available.

You guys are right about that. The combat system as a whole was never intended to include the requirement for a proper healer. They seemed to have tried to make healers work without the need to resort to tab targeted healing skills.It could have been more challenging if the focus was on ranged but ground targeted healing skills such as Cosmic Ray and Lunar Impact during the druid's CA form. They could have combined an abundance of those skills with the need to constantly heal the tank. Would certainly make things a little more tricky.People have different perceptions on how things should be, however. Some would call it fun, some would call it tricky and most would probably consider it to be just tedious and annoying. That's most likely why they ended up going the easy route, the AoE route.