Spear Feedback Response

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

The duel skill seem to have low cast time as well so they can some what interact with etch BUT your always going to have an issue with etch as they are on your 5 skill something that is a bit harder for weaver to control then the other eles. (I still think weaver should be able to chose what 1/2 atument swap it gets to go so you can go with the front back as we have now or back front to make etching a LOT better for weaver.)

It will work well with FA builds for sure though how is the air etch? Any thing that lets you get back into your 5th skill for the start etch and lets you atument swap for the dule skill will be key for weaver.

We may end up finding that core ele can use spear better then weaver for raw dmg though cata may do it better as well. I do not seem tempest getting that much from spear for dmg.

Dual skills in spear refresh your primary attunement. So the cycle for weaver really is attune>dual>double attune>etch. The problem isn't that weaver will find it significantly slower to access the next etching, it's that spear seems to be designed to keep weaver in dual attunement for as short a time as possible.

There's also, theoretically, the factor that if you start from being double-attuned to a single element, you can change your primary attunement partway through the charging process, and still be in the correct secondary attunement to release the etching. So the rotation there might be something like etch, use other skills to charge, attune partway through the charging process, finish charging, release, use dual skill, double attune, repeat. With such a cycle you might not even need the attunement cooldown reset from the dual skill depending on how fast you are, but it's still there if you do need it.

Still feels like the weapon is built around letting you slot weaver without actually weaving, though.

[Jski.6180]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dual skills in spear refresh your primary attunement. So the cycle for weaver really is attune>dual>double attune>etch. The problem isn't that weaver will find it significantly slower to access the next etching, it's that spear seems to be designed to keep weaver in dual attunement for as short a time as possible.

There's also, theoretically, the factor that if you start from being double-attuned to a single element, you can change your primary attunement partway through the charging process, and still be in the correct secondary attunement to release the etching. So the rotation there might be something like etch, use other skills to charge, attune partway through the charging process, finish charging, release, use dual skill, double attune, repeat. With such a cycle you might not even need the attunement cooldown reset from the dual skill depending on how fast you are, but it's still there if you do need it.

Still feels like the weapon is built around letting you slot weaver without actually weaving, though.

You get nothing for the etch from your dual skills is the issues that has a lot to do with the order that it works out. Maybe if your etch carried over to other atument etch but i do not think they do. So your only real trick is the run FA and only use air etch. Or go non weaver dps core or cata i do not see tempest pulling it off at all.

[draxynnic.3719]

52 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

You get nothing for the etch from your dual skills is the issues that has a lot to do with the order that it works out. Maybe if your etch carried over to other atument etch but i do not think they do. So your only real trick is the run FA and only use air etch. Or go non weaver dps core or cata i do not see tempest pulling it off at all.

You get nothing directly, but it does mean that you can switch to whatever etching you want faster than a weaver would otherwise be able to. Switch to the attunement you want, use your dual skill, then you can double-attune immediately rather than having to wait. 

The problem is that this is still just "how to play weaver without playing weaver" and emphatically not embracing what weaver is supposed to be.

[Jski.6180]

49 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You get nothing directly, but it does mean that you can switch to whatever etching you want faster than a weaver would otherwise be able to. Switch to the attunement you want, use your dual skill, then you can double-attune immediately rather than having to wait. 

The problem is that this is still just "how to play weaver without playing weaver" and emphatically not embracing what weaver is supposed to be.

The point of having etch is to trigger them and a fast duel skill would be great help there. It makes the duel skill not realty part of the spear. Dont get me wrong the effect is cool (i kind of want an F5 on weaver to do just that) it just dose not work for etching.

[Santo.2419]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dual skills in spear refresh your primary attunement. So the cycle for weaver really is attune>dual>double attune>etch. The problem isn't that weaver will find it significantly slower to access the next etching, it's that spear seems to be designed to keep weaver in dual attunement for as short a time as possible.

There's also, theoretically, the factor that if you start from being double-attuned to a single element, you can change your primary attunement partway through the charging process, and still be in the correct secondary attunement to release the etching. So the rotation there might be something like etch, use other skills to charge, attune partway through the charging process, finish charging, release, use dual skill, double attune, repeat. With such a cycle you might not even need the attunement cooldown reset from the dual skill depending on how fast you are, but it's still there if you do need it.

Still feels like the weapon is built around letting you slot weaver without actually weaving, though.

Ahh forgot the refresh, or never knew about it...not sure which, lol. Well with the refresh, it does open up some avenues to get back to the skill 5 for the flip. Will have to wait and see! 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The point of having etch is to trigger them and a fast duel skill would be great help there. It makes the duel skill not realty part of the spear. Dont get me wrong the effect is cool (i kind of want an F5 on weaver to do just that) it just dose not work for etching.

But that's the thing - the whole point of the refresh seems to be to be able to fully attune to a new element quickly in order to get to a new etching.

It still takes the same amount of skill activations to charge it, but it does mean that you're never far from being able to start the next one.

It was also possible to charge an etching in the time it normally takes for weaver attunements to recharge, it's just that having the etching last longer means that there's more leeway in case something slows you down.

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But that's the thing - the whole point of the refresh seems to be to be able to fully attune to a new element quickly in order to get to a new etching.

It still takes the same amount of skill activations to charge it, but it does mean that you're never far from being able to start the next one.

It was also possible to charge an etching in the time it normally takes for weaver attunements to recharge, it's just that having the etching last longer means that there's more leeway in case something slows you down.

Do you think it will let you go full cycle to the "old" etching? Fire/Earth (earth etching) -> fire/fire -> earth/fire -> dule skill into earth/earth -> use etching? You cant use the duel skill at the start or you will mess up the use for the duel skill to get into the "old" though unrvial would help as well BUT the etching would have to last for 8 sec? or more i think.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Do you think it will let you go full cycle to the "old" etching? Fire/Earth (earth etching) -> fire/fire -> earth/fire -> dule skill into earth/earth -> use etching? You cant use the duel skill at the start or you will mess up the use for the duel skill to get into the "old" though unrvial would help as well BUT the etching would have to last for 8 sec? or more i think.

That's an interesting question. Possibly? I probably wouldn't try it in practice, though.

[Codename T.2847]

On 8/14/2024 at 7:43 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Dual skills in spear refresh your primary attunement. So the cycle for weaver really is attune>dual>double attune>etch. The problem isn't that weaver will find it significantly slower to access the next etching, it's that spear seems to be designed to keep weaver in dual attunement for as short a time as possible.

There's also, theoretically, the factor that if you start from being double-attuned to a single element, you can change your primary attunement partway through the charging process, and still be in the correct secondary attunement to release the etching. So the rotation there might be something like etch, use other skills to charge, attune partway through the charging process, finish charging, release, use dual skill, double attune, repeat. With such a cycle you might not even need the attunement cooldown reset from the dual skill depending on how fast you are, but it's still there if you do need it.

Still feels like the weapon is built around letting you slot weaver without actually weaving, though.

kitten, might as well just play core Ele with spear then x) 

[ippy.9048]

To be honest, I feel like playing with a spear and pistol is more suited to a core elementalist.

Weaver, Tempest, and Catalyst... none of them really fit with a spear or a pistol.

I realize it now, but perhaps the weapons and elite specs should have been designed together from the start. I’m not saying this as a criticism, but still...😔

[tykel.6073]

On 8/15/2024 at 12:57 AM, Jski.6180 said:

The point of having etch is to trigger them and a fast duel skill would be great help there. It makes the duel skill not realty part of the spear. Dont get me wrong the effect is cool (i kind of want an F5 on weaver to do just that) it just dose not work for etching.

Even if people think the current dual spear skills have a cool effect, it's not a functional effect. Weaver needs real damaging skills from the dual skill slots to have comparable damage to the other specs since they don't have the overloads/jade spheres for extra damage. The extra damage from the dual skills should give a more fleshed out rotation with less time having to use low damage filler skills to compensate but instead we have a weapon that doesn't do that in exchange for just avoiding the weaver style in general with more button presses needed in rapid succession that don't actually do anything in the end. Many of the current dual skills do less than nothing since its kinda a tax to get to having more cds available instead of making them useful buttons. 

 

I'm very disappointed that the dual skills weren't changed at all but maybe they realized that they need completely redone. I doubt it, but I can dream I guess.

[Jski.6180]

28 minutes ago, tykel.6073 said:

Even if people think the current dual spear skills have a cool effect, it's not a functional effect. Weaver needs real damaging skills from the dual skill slots to have comparable damage to the other specs since they don't have the overloads/jade spheres for extra damage. The extra damage from the dual skills should give a more fleshed out rotation with less time having to use low damage filler skills to compensate but instead we have a weapon that doesn't do that in exchange for just avoiding the weaver style in general with more button presses needed in rapid succession that don't actually do anything in the end. Many of the current dual skills do less than nothing since its kinda a tax to get to having more cds available instead of making them useful buttons. 

 

I'm very disappointed that the dual skills weren't changed at all but maybe they realized that they need completely redone. I doubt it, but I can dream I guess.

Oddly i am finding the dule skills working out very well even for tigger the etch. Now that the etch last for 7 sec and it only take 3 to trigger them now.

 

[draxynnic.3719]

16 hours ago, ippy.9048 said:

To be honest, I feel like playing with a spear and pistol is more suited to a core elementalist.

Weaver, Tempest, and Catalyst... none of them really fit with a spear or a pistol.

I realize it now, but perhaps the weapons and elite specs should have been designed together from the start. I’m not saying this as a criticism, but still...😔

Yeah, this was pretty much the problem from the outset. The only elite specialisation that really works for ranged combat in PvE is weaver, and for different reasons, neither pistol nor spear really works with weaver.

Pistol gets used in group instances because under perfect conditions it does eke out a bit more damage than other elementalist condition options, but that's about all it has, and unless you're willing to put in the effort to get your rotation perfect I think sceptre is better (and more fun).

[tykel.6073]

7 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Oddly i am finding the dule skills working out very well even for tigger the etch. Now that the etch last for 7 sec and it only take 3 to trigger them now.

 

problem isn't them not working for the etches, the problem is that so long as a weapon that is 2 handed or a main hand weapon doesn't have dual skills for weaver that are dps positive, the weapon will always be worse on weaver than on the other specs given the current balance of traits. Dual skills are the weavers overload/jade sphere in that if they don't add to their damage, its the same as not gaining damage from their spec mechanic. The whole benefit of having the 2 attunements isn't that mixing them is somehow better. It's only better because the dual skills made it worth it such as on sword for most game modes and scepter in pvp contexts at some points in history.

 

If ANET intends for spear to be weaker on weaver than on the others then that is fine, weird since weaver would have the easiest time staying at range, but fine. However if it is meant to be competitive in all game modes between the specs (not the best, just competitive) then the dual skills cannot be 0 damage skills or even small damage ticks for triggering their weakness crit. They have to actually add something comparable to their output. The current ones can feel fine to use in open world and such, but they do not accomplish what weaver needs them to which is funny since they were apparently nervous about the projectile blocking one in pvp contexts but that alone does not make the weapon worth considering on weaver over the others.