JW Currencies

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

But by this measure nothing can be grinding since you don't have to do it. I mean you don't have to engage in any grinding content at all in any game because you don't have to play any game. But that's not how grinding is characterized.

I already clarified it in the very post you quoted with the bit about basically obligatory grind that is needed to go through in other games of this type -for example in order to enter a new map, have reasonable chance of killing mobs or matching the power of players. The part not limited to, but also included here:

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I could understand that complaint about "grind" if any of it was needed for gear to keep up with other players -mostly in competitive modes- or even to be able to play through the content (which was the case with other mmos incorporating gear grind and level cap increase). But this is not what it is in this game at all.

So if you want to address what I said, address what I said. If you want to make edgy claims that "you don't have to play the game!!" then sorry to disappoint, but it was already addressed what I was talking about and "not having to play the game!" wasn't that.

 

 

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

1) X requires griding. ("Most of those [repeatables] give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired in other means or just skins." (I would clarify here that those other means require lots of repetition/grinding as well.))

What "those other" do you have in mind here? Because I wouldn't say that most require grinding at all.
I find it weird for you to actively pick up mmorpg games -while in this case it's a game which can easly be dropped and picked up again years later with no issues to start playing through the new content- and then try complaining about "repetition".

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

2) If you don't want to grind, then stop wanting X. (All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do.")

The first part is not what I said. The second is.

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

3) Therefore, there isn't any grinding. ("If anything, there's hardly any real grind.")

Again: the first part isn't what I said. The second is. "there's hardly any real grind" =/= "therefore there isn't any grinding". You mentioned your phd and tried presenting extended interest with the meaning of words and yet... "hardly any real grind" is now the same as "there isn't any grinding" for you? Please.

1 hour ago, Logos.5603 said:

Most of GW2 is designed this way. Most rewards require (obligate) engaging in some form of grinding.

If playing the game for the reward (whatever that reward is, for example in case of mentioned by @DeanBB.4268 mine sweeper it can simply be achieving a high score) is "grinding" because you can't get it any other way then gaming doesn't exist for you. In fact, I wonder if anything in your -or anyone elses- life would not qualify as grind.

 

But ok, lets go with your "you don't have to play the game, ha!" take now:
If you dislike how the game plays, maybe it's time to look for the game with the gameplay you enjoy . If you want to play through the content -maybe even just story- once and be done with it (because replaying instances, ow events, pvp maps, wvw objectives or w/e other content at all means you're grinding now) then let me introduce you to the concept of single player games. A lot of which have a mostly set storyline, where you go through it and have a definitive end. By design, games like mmorpgs aren't aiming at having that definitive ending, they are very much meant to be replayed. It is by design, it's not new, it's not hidden and it's hard to believe you don't understand that.
Once again, if you're not enjoying the gameplay loop... It's time for you to realize that and start playing the games you actually want to play. 🤷‍♂️ It doesn't even mean you need to quit anything, as already mentioned, it's really easy to come back to this game even years later. But if you're looking for some one-and-done games aiming at having definitive ending? At least know which shelf you should be looking at.

Edited September 6 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, DeanBB.4268 said:

Fixed that for you. Aren't Tetris, Solitaire and Mine Sweeper grindy as heck, also?

Not just computer games. All of life requires that you do something to get things.

[DeanBB.4268]

19 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not just computer games. All of life requires that you do something to get things.

Dang! You're right! I've been working for like 45 years now! What a grind!

[Logos.5603]

🙄

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I already clarified it in the very post you quoted with the bit about basically obligatory grind that is needed to go through in other games of this type -for example in order to enter a new map, have reasonable chance of killing mobs or matching the power of players. The part not limited to, but also included here:

So if you want to address what I said, address what I said. If you want to make edgy claims that "you don't have to play the game!!" then sorry to disappoint, but it was already addressed what I was talking about and "not having to play the game!" wasn't that.

 

 

What "those other" do you have in mind here? Because I wouldn't say that most require grinding at all.
I find it weird for you to actively pick up mmorpg games -while in this case it's a game which can easly be dropped and picked up again years later with no issues to start playing through the new content- and then try complaining about "repetition".

The first part is not what I said. The second is.

Again: the first part isn't what I said. The second is. "there's hardly any real grind" =/= "therefore there isn't any grinding". You mentioned your phd and tried presenting extended interest with the meaning of words and yet... "hardly any real grind" is now the same as "there isn't any grinding" for you? Please.

If playing the game for the reward (whatever that reward is, for example in case of mentioned by @DeanBB.4268 mine sweeper it can simply be achieving a high score) is "grinding" because you can't get it any other way then gaming doesn't exist for you. In fact, I wonder if anything in your -or anyone elses- life would not qualify as grind.

 

But ok, lets go with your "you don't have to play the game, ha!" take now:
If you dislike how the game plays, maybe it's time to look for the game with the gameplay you enjoy . If you want to play through the content -maybe even just story- once and be done with it (because replaying instances, ow events, pvp maps, wvw objectives or w/e other content at all means you're grinding now) then let me introduce you to the concept of single player games. A lot of which have a mostly set storyline, where you go through it and have a definitive end. By design, games like mmorpgs aren't aiming at having that definitive ending, they are very much meant to be replayed. It is by design, it's not new, it's not hidden and it's hard to believe you don't understand that.
Once again, if you're not enjoying the gameplay loop... It's time for you to realize that and start playing the games you actually want to play. 🤷‍♂️ It doesn't even mean you need to quit anything, as already mentioned, it's really easy to come back to this game even years later. But if you're looking for some one-and-done games aiming at having definitive ending? At least know which shelf you should be looking at.

Ok...🙄

Listen, you are the one that said that "If anything, there's hardly any real grind (maybe unless you're trying to rush everything that just comes out, at which point... what isn't a grind?), let alone anything that's in any way obligatory...Most of those repeatables give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired through other means or just skins. All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do". Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with. "

You are assuming that for something to be grinding, it has to involved doing an activity rushed, or doing some obligatory content. But that's just wrong. Again, if this was true, then nothing can be grinding, for playing any content whatsoever is not obligatory. However, what is obligatory is the grind if I want particular items, achievements, etc. Grinding doesn't stop being grinding simply because it isn't obligatory or isn't rushed. For example, the process for unlocking a legendary items includes grinding for certain items. This is true even if I didn't want the legendary or didn't rush getting it. Many of the rewards/content in GW2 involve grinding. If I want to decorate my homestead, it involves grinding for mats. If I want a legendary item, I have to grind for mats and/or grind content. If I want cool skins from the gem store (or some other ones), then either I grind in the game for gold to convert into gems, or grind in real life for money. If I want to unlock the best mounts in the game, then I need to grind (less than it used to be, but it is still grinding). I want to complete some hearts, then I need to grind some activities. Sure, I don't have to want these thing (which are quite a bit of what GW2 actually has to offer), but if I do, I need to grind. The best GW2 has to offer involves grinding. In fact, this is true of most MMO's. Doesn't mean it (a) has to be like that, and (b) the consumer has to like it. This of course doesn't even touch on the problematic psychologically exploitative practice on which grinding relies.

"By design, games like mmorpgs aren't aiming at having that definitive ending, they are very much meant to be replayed. It is by design, it's not new, it's not hidden and it's hard to believe you don't understand that."
This is (a) irrelevant, and (b) meanspirited/insulting.

"Once again, if you're not enjoying the gameplay loop... It's time for you to realize that and start playing the games you actually want to play."
Again, irrelevant, and I already mentioned why I play it.

A few other points:

1) Simply because activity A requires you to pick up carrots, and activity B has you picking up poop doesn't mean that you aren't repeating the same activity in both A and B. A lot of the choices you get in GW2 are like this. Either grind by capping the 1000th keep, or by slaying the 1000th player, or completing the 1000th same set of quest. This is still grinding.

2) Premise #2 (If you don't want to grind, then stop wanting X) is what is implied by what you wrote: "All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do."' Here Ill add more of the context you gave. You wrote, "Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with." Again the implication here is that if you don't want to grind, then stop wanting the reward associated with that activity.

3) We can change the "therefore there isn't any grinding" to "therefore, there's hardly any real grind." The conclusion still doesn't follow, which was the point of breaking the argument down.

Edited September 6 by Logos.5603

[Logos.5603]

31 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Not just computer games. All of life requires that you do something to get things.

But thankfully not all of it is grinding!

[Sobx.1758]

34 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Listen, you are the one that said that "If anything, there's hardly any real grind (maybe unless you're trying to rush everything that just comes out, at which point... what isn't a grind?), let alone anything that's in any way obligatory...Most of those repeatables give you just ap, rewards that can be acquired through other means or just skins. All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do". Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with.

Yes and what you quoted is exactly what I meant, not whatever you decided to turn it into in your previous post. So, again, if you wanted to comment on what I said, comment on what I said instead of pretending it means something different 🤷‍♂️ 

34 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

You are assuming that for something to be grinding, it has to involved doing an activity rushed, or doing some obligatory content. But that's just wrong. Again, if this was true, then nothing can be grinding, for playing any content whatsoever is not obligatory. However, what is obligatory is the grind if I want particular items, achievements, etc. Grinding doesn't stop being grinding simply because it isn't obligatory or isn't rushed. For example, the process for unlocking a legendary items includes grinding for certain items. This is true even if I didn't want the legendary or didn't rush getting it. Many of the rewards/content in GW2 involve grinding. If I want to decorate my homestead, it involves grinding for mats. If I want a legendary item, I have to grind for mats and/or grind content. If I want cool skins from the gem store (or some other ones), then either I grind in the game for gold to convert into gems, or grind in real life for money. If I want to unlock the best mounts in the game, then I need to grind (less than it used to be, but it is still grinding). I want to complete some hearts, then I need to grind some activities. Sure, I don't have to want these thing (which are quite a bit of what GW2 actually has to offer), but if I do, I need to grind. The best GW2 has to offer involves grinding. In fact, this is true of most MMO's. Doesn't mean it (a) has to be like that, and (b) the consumer has to like it. This of course doesn't even touch on the problematic psychologically exploitative practice on which grinding relies.

"By design, games like mmorpgs aren't aiming at having that definitive ending, they are very much meant to be replayed. It is by design, it's not new, it's not hidden and it's hard to believe you don't understand that."
This is (a) irrelevant, and (b) meanspirited/insulting.

"Once again, if you're not enjoying the gameplay loop... It's time for you to realize that and start playing the games you actually want to play."
Again, irrelevant, and I already mentioned why I play it.

A few other points:

1) Simply because activity A requires you to pick up carrots, and activity B has you picking up poop doesn't mean that you aren't repeating the same activity in both A and B. A lot of the choices you get in GW2 are like this. Either grind by capping the 1000th keep, or by slaying the 1000th player, or completing the 1000th same set of quest. This is still grinding.

2) Premise #2 (If you don't want to grind, then stop wanting X) is what is implied by what you wrote: "All of which are easy to skip if it's about "something you don't want to do."' Here Ill add more of the context you gave. You wrote, "Don't want to repeat same "quest" (acheivement?) 100th time? Cool, don't. Don't want to capture 1000th keep? No problem, don't do it and you won't get some ap and a title or w/e it was rewarding you with." Again the implication here is that if you don't want to grind, then stop wanting the reward associated with that activity.

3) We can change the "therefore there isn't any grinding" to "therefore, there's hardly any real grind." The conclusion still doesn't follow, which was the point of breaking the argument down.

But rushing it is and was your main complaint about it. Like complaining that you can't have everything unlocked in housing on week 1, even though the materials you complained about were -and are- tradable. At that point, you're complaining about "having" to play the game you apparently dislike playing. As I said, if you keep defining grinding simply by having the gameplay being repeatable/replayable then you're looking at the wrong shelf and should pick your genres/games accordingly to your interest. You're picking the market of games based on long term replayability of content and then complain that everything's a grind "because there's achievement that grants ap for capping 1k keeps" and you totally have to grind it out because there's some reward there too. If you think you have to do grind things out because there's any reward behind it then you have a bigger problem than lack of ability to find a shelf with games you would apparently enjoy -and which those would probably be, was already mentioned previously. You don't get to start playing football games and then complain that all you do is repeatedly trying to get the ball to keep scoring goals just to start another match and do the same. Your complaint doesn't make sense because you intentionally start playing the game that promises replayable/repeatable content at its core and then complain that it's repeatable/replayable so it's grind and it should be.
Basically you're still lost in the store, unable to even find the alley with the products you're looking for, so now you'll keep arguing that the alley with the products belonging there are bad because you dislike them. And yes, it is very relevant that you pick the genre of games you apparently specifically dislike. It's also not meanspirited nor insulting(??), it's a simple fact that everyone's able to pick the games they'll enjoy most. Why you start playing mmorpg and then complain that it plays like an mmorpg? I don't know, you tell me.

 

25 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

But thankfully not all of it is grinding!

The point you're still clearly missing here is that by how you decided to recognize grind...  all of it is.

Edited September 6 by Sobx.1758

[Ashen.2907]

3 hours ago, Logos.5603 said:

It is a kind of activity that one needs to do (is obligatory) if one want the reward

When grind is defined in this manner then essentially everything is a grind. 

[Logos.5603]

12 minutes ago, Ashen.2907 said:

When grind is defined in this manner then essentially everything is a grind. 

Sure, except that's not how I'm defining it. In the passage that you are citing "the kind of activity" stands for "grinding." In other words, you can read it as saying that "grinding is obligatory if one wants the reward."

[Sobx.1758]

22 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Sure, except that's not how I'm defining it. In the passage that you are citing "the kind of activity" stands for "grinding." In other words, you can read it as saying that "grinding is obligatory if one wants the reward."

Yeah and as already mentioned, the same applies to basically anything else you do:
If playing the game for the reward (whatever that reward is, for example in case of mentioned by @DeanBB.4268 mine sweeper it can simply be achieving a high score) is "grinding" because you can't get it any other way then gaming doesn't exist for you. In fact, I wonder if anything in your -or anyone elses- life would not qualify as grind.

 

...and 5 minutes later you now "open up" in another thread how this is just an ok time-waster while you're waiting for other games. In that case, you apparently know what type of game you intentionally picked for a specific purpose and yet you're still complaining that it does what you were aiming for. 🙄 

[Ashen.2907]

32 minutes ago, Logos.5603 said:

Sure, except that's not how I'm defining it. In the passage that you are citing "the kind of activity" stands for "grinding." In other words, you can read it as saying that "grinding is obligatory if one wants the reward."

So how do you define grinding? I've seen almost as many definitions as people expressing an opinion on the subject.