Improving spear while maintaining its current identity

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

I would love for Weaver to get proper dual skills, but I suggested using multiple forms of a buff in order to create a solution that doesn't require reworking all the skills' animations outright.

That thinking is probably what caused the problem in the first place - ArenaNet didn't want to have to create another half-dozen skill animations, so they just made most of them self-buffs without considering that weaver is designed on the assumption that most dual skills are offensive in nature.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

6 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

As it stands right now, etchings create a negative synergy with the weapon's intended playstyle.

this was an intended weakness of spear. shaman touched on it earlier; its kit is inherently meant to be “comfortable at range” and fold “in the thick of combat” (see spear blogpost). its intended to be somewhat defenseless and not supposed to focus on area denial or otherwise keeping enemies away (which would undermine staffs identity)

[Tempest.8479]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

That thinking is probably what caused the problem in the first place - ArenaNet didn't want to have to create another half-dozen skill animations, so they just made most of them self-buffs without considering that weaver is designed on the assumption that most dual skills are offensive in nature.

I can see where you're coming from, but my suggestions weren't meant to be an all-encompassing solution. Rather, they were meant to suggest ways of making spear more broadly functional across all specs and all game modes without losing its current thematic identity. I think once it's in a state that works in most cases, then you can drill down on Weaver dual skills and rework them to be more offensive in nature rather than the utility they currently provide.

3 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

this was an intended weakness of spear. shaman touched on it earlier; its kit is inherently meant to be “comfortable at range” and fold “in the thick of combat” (see spear blogpost). its intended to be somewhat defenseless and not supposed to focus on area denial or otherwise keeping enemies away (which would undermine staffs identity)

The inherent weakness of any glass cannon ranged weapon should be its inability to survive in the thick of combat. The problem with spear, as it exists currently, is that it's a 1200 range weapon that consistently forces you into the thick of combat in order to use most of its hardest hitting skills because you have to remain within a 360 radius at all times in order to deal reasonable damage with it.

As someone who almost exclusively runs a staff Weaver in WvW zergs, spear is funtionally useless because it's essential to be able to cast on the move. Standing relatively still in the face of an oncoming zerg can be instant death, and maintaining range against moving targets often requires the ability to constantly change positions relative to said targets. Many of these same problems can be applied to instanced PvE, where movement is essential to completing or avoiding mechanics.

Even in open world PvE, the mechanical shortcomings of a spear create an unnecessarily frustrating experience. As an example, dealing with Titanspawn in the new JW maps can quickly become a pain. Many will leap or simply walk into the radius of an etching before it's been fully charged, forcing you to risk getting hit in melee range or lose out on the chance to cast a fully charged flip-over skill.

I always play through new content with the new combat options added with an expansion, but I often find myself tempted to just go back to my sword/dagger build for much smoother gameplay when exploring and doing events if I'm going to end up being forced to engage in melee range anyway. This makes me disappointed in the weapon's current state, as I really like the theme of charging up spell circles to unleash massive attacks. As it stands its fine, if not somewhat cumbersome and frustrating, to use in open world PvE, but relatively useless in all other forms of gameplay.

It is perfectly reasonable to design a ranged weapon that folds in the thick of combat. What doesn't work well is a weapon designed to be fold in the thick of combat because it has 1200 range, that then can't take advantage of its range consistently due to negative synergy with its own skills.

Edited Tuesday at 08:16 AM by Tempest.8479

[Noodle Ant.1605]

4 hours ago, Tempest.8479 said:

I can see where you're coming from, but my suggestions weren't meant to be an all-encompassing solution. Rather, they were meant to suggest ways of making spear more broadly functional across all specs and all game modes without losing its current thematic identity. I think once it's in a state that works in most cases, then you can drill down on Weaver dual skills and rework them to be more offensive in nature rather than the utility they currently provide.

The inherent weakness of any glass cannon ranged weapon should be its inability to survive in the thick of combat. The problem with spear, as it exists currently, is that it's a 1200 range weapon that consistently forces you into the thick of combat in order to use most of its hardest hitting skills because you have to remain within a 360 radius at all times in order to deal reasonable damage with it.

As someone who almost exclusively runs a staff Weaver in WvW zergs, spear is funtionally useless because it's essential to be able to cast on the move. Standing relatively still in the face of an oncoming zerg can be instant death, and maintaining range against moving targets often requires the ability to constantly change positions relative to said targets. Many of these same problems can be applied to instanced PvE, where movement is essential to completing or avoiding mechanics.

Even in open world PvE, the mechanical shortcomings of a spear create an unnecessarily frustrating experience. As an example, dealing with Titanspawn in the new JW maps can quickly become a pain. Many will leap or simply walk into the radius of an etching before it's been fully charged, forcing you to risk getting hit in melee range or lose out on the chance to cast a fully charged flip-over skill.

I always play through new content with the new combat options added with an expansion, but I often find myself tempted to just go back to my sword/dagger build for much smoother gameplay when exploring and doing events if I'm going to end up being forced to engage in melee range anyway. This makes me disappointed in the weapon's current state, as I really like the theme of charging up spell circles to unleash massive attacks. As it stands its fine, if not somewhat cumbersome and frustrating, to use in open world PvE, but relatively useless in all other forms of gameplay.

It is perfectly reasonable to design a ranged weapon that folds in the thick of combat. What doesn't work well is a weapon designed to be fold in the thick of combat because it has 1200 range, that then can't take advantage of its range consistently due to negative synergy with its own skills.

if staff can find ways to complete a stationary 4s casting animation… surely spear can find ways to use 3 skills within a 360 radius leeway. in other words, spear is meant to excel when it is under minimal pressure (including not needing to move around a lot) and the etching mechanic does exactly that

but with the way that you put it, the problem isnt that spear has negative synergy with itself… its that the etching mechanic is too much of a necessity and too punishing when spear cant find ideal situations to do it. the solution therefore isnt to change where the etches are placed with the hope that it works slightly better (and also all the flipover skills as well?), but to find ways to make the mechanic less binary

[Tempest.8479]

4 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

if staff can find ways to complete a stationary 4s casting animation… surely spear can find ways to use 3 skills within a 360 radius leeway. in other words, spear is meant to excel when it is under minimal pressure (including not needing to move around a lot) and the etching mechanic does exactly that

The only reason staff has any current niche (literally only ok in zergs in WvW) is because there are no suitable alternatives that exist for it at the moment. People have been calling for reworks and improvements to staff for years because it hasn't kept up with the changes to modern GW2 combat. Staff only has 1 skill with a root out of 20+, and arguably the most requested rework (outside of reverting the meteor shower damage nerfs) has been to allow players to move while casting it.

A weapon that excels under minimal pressure might've worked at some point in this game's life when attacks were slower and enemies were less dynamic, but modern GW2 really isn't designed for static weapons. And spear somehow manages to be a more static weapon than staff, because you're constantly placing 360 radius borders for yourself in order to keep up damage. 

5 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

but with the way that you put it, the problem isnt that spear has negative synergy with itself… its that the etching mechanic is too much of a necessity and too punishing when spear cant find ideal situations to do it. the solution therefore isnt to change where the etches are placed with the hope that it works slightly better (and also all the flipover skills as well?), but to find ways to make the mechanic less binary

The conclusion you've arrived at is the exact opposite of how I think spear should be designed. What you would be advocating for essentially sacrifices thematic identity for functional ease of use. Rather than trying to make a cool theme work within the parameters of modern combat, it sounds like you would want spear to exist in a way where it becomes much easier to ignore the mechanic altogether in most circumstances. That would just make spear a 1200 range pistol. Functional in many cases, but boring to use because its central mechanic becomes an afterthought.

You've suggested bringing up the lesser skills to 70% of what the fully charged versions are, and that alone would create scenarios where it's better to ignore the mechanic in most cases than it would be to properly use etchings as they exist right now. Because as you rightly pointed out, etchings are too punishing when they can't be used in ideal circumstances. Therefore, it would be better to make etchings less punishing and more usable in all cases than it would be to build the rest of the kit to ignore them. That way, spear still retains the same flavor and feel without becoming another generic weapon that's only used because it puts up good numbers.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

I would like to say that buff>condition as it stand for now.

It makes sense that it is buff as it is stationar circle. Buff ensure that we still can benefit from the 1200 range (why not 1500?).

While condition would play into a more CQC style.

[Suyheuti.1732]

11 hours ago, Phoenix the One.4071 said:

I would like to say that buff>condition as it stand for now.

It makes sense that it is buff as it is stationar circle. Buff ensure that we still can benefit from the 1200 range (why not 1500?).

While condition would play into a more CQC style.

Can you use that 1200 range and you ask 1500?

Spear is only playable with Tempest and Catalyst. Both specs requires proximity (Tempest Overloads, Catalyst Spheres). Only spec could get benefit from spear is weaver and thanks to anet, they made garbage the spear skills #3. Was it so hard to put those non damaging skills to skill#4? 
 

On the other hand, spear skill#1 fire = Flame Spear (Throw a spear of flame at your foe) and this skill has no burning damage. What kind of explanation is this? 
 

The main problem is ground effect. Literally unplayable in instanced content because of not able to see the ground. I cannot even imagine to play with spear catalyst at W4 Deimos.

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

Pathing on lots of the skills is useless if you aren't on completely flat ground.

Especially the 5 skills, all except fire are useless on walls, stairs and most slopes....half of WvW.

So much for a ranged weapon.

 

Imagine how bad that would be if 5 skills actually hit harder than any other class auto attacks for....