Bringing Players to PvP

[Desaita.3792]

I dont know that this would be an easy solution but if you want to get players from PvE to play more PvP I think the skill balancing of different modes needs to be removed. Every game mode should use the same skills and stats and be balanced the same. I can say the most off putting thing between PvP and PvE for myself is that my very same build performs very differently in both places. Ive played a ton of each now and sort of know what to expect. However I bet someone who sank 500 hours into PvE and thought their build was great only to try it in PvP for the first time and see that it is nerfed into the dirt would not want to play PvP. I think one of the mechanic changes that upset me the most was the removal of every bunker or support amulet available years ago because they were "too strong", being the simple counter to a berserker who spams evasion and invulnerable. 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I see what you're saying, but we're waaaaay too deep into skill splits at this point.

You just have to find a pvp version of your spec that works and is functional.

Just the way it is.

[Cutting Razor.5983]

A large problem to me (which I'm not sure how to fix) is that unless you invest a huge amount of time playing each class, it's actually quite hard to figure out how other classes work, what you should be dodging and what's killing you. Just having short description of skills be visible in kill recap would be a good start. Also spectate mode for tourneys and ability to look a replay of your games would be wonderful resources to have.

[Spellhunter.9675]

51 minutes ago, Desaita.3792 said:

I dont know that this would be an easy solution but if you want to get players from PvE to play more PvP I think the skill balancing of different modes needs to be removed. Every game mode should use the same skills and stats and be balanced the same. I can say the most off putting thing between PvP and PvE for myself is that my very same build performs very differently in both places. Ive played a ton of each now and sort of know what to expect. However I bet someone who sank 500 hours into PvE and thought their build was great only to try it in PvP for the first time and see that it is nerfed into the dirt would not want to play PvP. I think one of the mechanic changes that upset me the most was the removal of every bunker or support amulet available years ago because they were "too strong", being the simple counter to a berserker who spams evasion and invulnerable. 

 

even if anet will remove skill split pve builds won't work in pvp. gl playing 0 stab 0 stunbreaks build in pvp.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Desaita.3792 said:

I dont know that this would be an easy solution but if you want to get players from PvE to play more PvP I think the skill balancing of different modes needs to be removed. 

What PvE build do you want to use in PvP? 

You also understand you would have to nerf the DPS output of PvE specs by a LOT, right? You cannot expect to have the same balance in a raid environment as you do a competitive one, even if only looking at damage coefficients.  

We've seen what this leads to, just play any of the original open world meta events (like Svanir Shaman) in 2024, it's a boring slogfest to balance around power creep.  

[Dean Calaway.9718]

1 hour ago, Desaita.3792 said:

Every game mode should use the same skills and stats and be balanced the same.

I'm gonna say this as if you're someone I really like: that's an awful idea.

1 hour ago, Desaita.3792 said:

I can say the most off putting thing between PvP and PvE for myself is that my very same build performs very differently in both places.

That's because you're meeting force on force with an unwilling opponent.

Much like faux martial arts masters when they enter an MMA fight and all of a sudden they regret every choice they ever made in their live.

[Desaita.3792]

41 minutes ago, Cutting Razor.5983 said:

A large problem to me (which I'm not sure how to fix) is that unless you invest a huge amount of time playing each class, it's actually quite hard to figure out how other classes work, what you should be dodging and what's killing you. Just having short description of skills be visible in kill recap would be a good start. Also spectate mode for tourneys and ability to look a replay of your games would be wonderful resources to have.

the funny thing is they used to have a recap but removed it for some reason

[Desaita.3792]

25 minutes ago, Spellhunter.9675 said:

even if anet will remove skill split pve builds won't work in pvp. gl playing 0 stab 0 stunbreaks build in pvp.

if you are playing a build like that in PvE it wont even work very well.

[Desaita.3792]

3 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

What PvE build do you want to use in PvP? 

You also understand you would have to nerf the DPS output of PvE specs by a LOT, right? You cannot expect to have the same balance in a raid environment as you do a competitive one, even if only looking at damage coefficients.  

We've seen what this leads to, just play any of the original open world meta events (like Svanir Shaman) in 2024, it's a boring slogfest to balance around power creep.  

Im trying to suggest an overall world balance where PvE builds perform the same in PvP and if this means lowering the damage of PvE builds fine, just also lower veteran,elite, champion and legend health too. However my suggestion would not be to lower the damages, it would be to keep them stationary and simply bring back defensive PvP builds. The only reason the damage seems way to high is because soldiers stats and clerics stats no longer exist. I used to have a bunker necro with 30k health and 20k life force which I'm not saying is perfectly balanced but I definitely wasn't worried about soaking damage. Its about bringing consistency and balance.

[Desaita.3792]

Im basically suggesting that there is a better way to balance things then simply making every skill perform much worse and taking away 75% of build options.

[Desaita.3792]

13 minutes ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

I'm gonna say this as if you're someone I really like: that's an awful idea.

That's because you're meeting force on force with an unwilling opponent.

Much like faux martial arts masters when they enter an MMA fight and all of a sudden they regret every choice they ever made in their live.

Id like to reply to your commentary but a lot of what you said just doesn't make sense. Are you comparing an online game to a real life fight?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

2 hours ago, Desaita.3792 said:

The only reason the damage seems way to high is because soldiers stats and clerics stats no longer exist. I used to have a bunker necro with 30k health and 20k life force which I'm not saying is perfectly balanced but I definitely wasn't worried about soaking damage. Its about bringing consistency and balance.

If you like playing bunker, you can essentially still do it on necro, especially with the upcoming buffs to sustain for them.  There's also spellbreaker, guard...lot of bunkers running around.  

It's not just damage though.  If you take things like Untamed, in PvE you get quickness for GM trait (Let Loose), in sPvP you do not, this is as balance decision.  You can't just take quickness away in PvE or you lose your qDPS Untamed, and you can't add it to sPvP without causing some rather large balancing problems around unleashed ambushes.  

Closest you are going to find is WvW.  Balance there is mostly same as PvE aside from a few skill changes for competitive.  You can still build your super bunkers though as all gear is PvE stats.  

[asket.5674]

Split Balancing is one of the best features of gw2 pvp, comes shortly after stat normalization in spvp. Finding a common ground for pvp and pve is impossible imo, one mode will always suffer for the sake of balancing the other mode. 

[Spellhunter.9675]

10 hours ago, Desaita.3792 said:

if you are playing a build like that in PvE it wont even work very well.

most pve scenarios designed in a way where you just need to maximaze damage output. In those cases when you need stab or healing you have dedicated builds which provides you stab and healing. If you need stab, stunbreaks or damage mitigation on dps build in pve - you are playing in a wrong/ineffective way. With this approach, you CAN use your pve build in pvp. But don't be surprised if it doesn't hold up against builds designed for maximum effectiveness in a competitive environment.

[maxwelgm.4315]

Someone with 500 hours in PvE and experience in instanced content will absolutely not try to take their PvE build into PvP, they will look it up 95% of the time I assure you. PvE itself already has an open world/instanced content split which subdivides even further into fractals and raids/strikes builds.

I do agree we didn't need to remove healing amulets because the real support creep is in stability/blocks/auras/reflects/bubbles/res signets, but that's beyond the point.

To bring people into PvP and have them stay it's very, very simple, just offer the raw liquid gold of pip rewards in the relaxed and 5-man premade enabling unranked. Stick larger guild mission rewards for PvP and increase the amount of PvE things people can get from PvP. Finally, allow people to grind their PvE legendary armor and backpiece in Unranked. There you go, lots of players are coming in without feeling like they have to join ranked and only those who really want to learn and try to compete would in practice join the ranked queue. No one's leaderboard is disturbed and we have newbies at the same time going around.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

23 hours ago, Desaita.3792 said:

Are you comparing an online game to a real life fight?

I'm staring that your PvE build, rotation and overall approach to fights isn't gonna translate to PvP.

Ence why builds are different between modes, and skills are differently balanced as well.

Because once you meet an unwilling human opponent that's too far divorced from an NPC to have both those modes be balanced the same.

[Desaita.3792]

18 hours ago, asket.5674 said:

Split Balancing is one of the best features of gw2 pvp, comes shortly after stat normalization in spvp. Finding a common ground for pvp and pve is impossible imo, one mode will always suffer for the sake of balancing the other mode. 

I disagree but thats alright.

[Desaita.3792]

5 hours ago, Dean Calaway.9718 said:

I'm staring that your PvE build, rotation and overall approach to fights isn't gonna translate to PvP.

Ence why builds are different between modes, and skills are differently balanced as well.

Because once you meet an unwilling human opponent that's too far divorced from an NPC to have both those modes be balanced the same.

I garuntee that the same builds would play in PvP just fine because they used to allow these builds. The changing of builds was done years ago and was probably the worst change made. I don't recall if the split balancing was always around but it wasn't nearly as prominent as it is now. 

[Desaita.3792]

but back then they also had a ton of compounding percentiles and builds could be beyond broken with ease.

[Desaita.3792]

A large problem to me (which I'm not sure how to fix) is that unless you invest a huge amount of time playing each class, it's actually quite hard to figure out how other classes work, what you should be dodging and what's killing you. Just having short description of skills be visible in kill recap would be a good start. Also spectate mode for tourneys and ability to look a replay of your games would be wonderful resources to have.

the funny thing is they used to have a recap but removed it for some reason

 

for whoever was confused by this post. guild wars 2 used to have a death recap, which was a simple log that told you how much damage you took and from what source. i hope that helps.

[Nilkemia.8507]

There are far more (influential) reasons to stay out of PvP besides the skill/stat splits.

[Desaita.3792]

like the toxic behaviors?

Just now, Nilkemia.8507 said:

There are far more (influential) reasons to stay out of PvP besides the skill/stat splits.

 

[Nilkemia.8507]

31 minutes ago, Desaita.3792 said:

like the toxic behaviors?

 

Toxicity. Pretty much a given with PvP regardless of what game.

Match Manipulation. No, not something like a player just sitting out a lost game, things like wintrading, rigging matches with certain players/professions for certain outcomes, playing at specific times, or having a mole/feeder on the opposing side.

Skill/stat splits. I won't pretend that it isn't an issue, but it's a minor one.

Constant imbalance between the professions. Or so I keep reading about. I'm admittedly not qualified to say how true it is, but I don't doubt it.

And finally, because this is an MMO, and as such PvP is all but an oxymoron here. It can work as a side mode, but never the main mode. The limitations of the skills available (and/or your profession) means that more often than not, numbers will beat skill. This applies even more so in WvW.

Ironically, the change to the Wizard's Vault for dailies helped kill off incentive to participate in the PvP/WvW modes even more.

And that's what I can think of at this moment.

Edit : One more. As someone in another thread of yours pointed out, there's no real comeback mechanics in PvP, and this is something I've learned from my admittedly limited/outdated experience. Once a team gains a lead of around 100 points or so, they're basically set as long as they don't massively screw up or someone disconnects or starts throwing. This isn't to say comebacks don't happen, but they were often too rare to be worth wasting more time for.

Edited Thursday at 03:25 AM by Nilkemia.8507
Added one more reason to stay out.

[Dean Calaway.9718]

9 hours ago, Desaita.3792 said:

I garuntee that the same builds would play in PvP just fine because they used to allow these builds.

They split it for a good reason and ever since then that hasn't stopped the good idea fairies asking to go back, so go ahead and proceeded with your crusade, who knows, maybe you'll get what you want only to realise you'll win even less.

[Atoclone.4810]

9 hours ago, Desaita.3792 said:

I garuntee that the same builds would play in PvP just fine because they used to allow these builds. The changing of builds was done years ago and was probably the worst change made. I don't recall if the split balancing was always around but it wasn't nearly as prominent as it is now. 

I guarantee they won't, different job different tool box. For example I'm quite competent in pve with no stun breaks, good luck running that in PvP.

Adversely most PvP builds will be acceptable in pve open world. Not good, but good enough. It's one of of the ways I teach my muscle memory