[Elite Suggestion] Cannibal

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Phoenix the One.4071 said:I feel you xD eventhough I got more advanced programs, I lack the skills (well maybe more the dedication/time it takes).

I just think you got too much going on.Write all of tem down on a word doc, pick the one you like the most, and then just focus to perfect it! :)Then you could always go back to the others :)Presenting and idea is often more about quality than quantity, even though marketing tells us otherwise :b

I especially love your phonix idea, even though I agreed with the feedback saying the theme was off, but that is what made it interesting and unique.A whole new development within your profession.. and glimps of “I’ve seen the light and reach for it, but still got a foot in the past”-scenario.

Well, what do you think i do? Do you think i simply unloads stuff here without thinking? Nah, i care fully plant and polish as much as i can and then post them.Also, when i will make enough of these, i am planning in summarize and polishing them into one single post overviewing about 3 best suggestion for necromancer, 2 best concepts for warrior, etc.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

What are your favor idea for necromancers?

[derd.6413]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:>Yeah, i would love to gain some constructive criticism and good suggestions, but i rarely get them.And art isn't my specialty, the best i could do is microsoft paint.......

Let me correct what you said:

Yeah, I would love to gain

positive

criticism and I don't care about suggestions because all I get are criticism that I don't want to acknowledge and I don't want to change things on my suggested specializations.

All in all, if you have this many idea, you should have first wrote them all at home and then created a

single

thread with all of them or your favorite pick. Being able to accept negative feedback from other does not make you weak, being able to grow from the negative feedback is a good thing. Up to now, only your spite have grown from what I can read from your exchange with derd.

And you are not my boss, not my parent or anyone else who is allowed to command me how i should do things. I will do whatever i want and you can't order me what to do.

everything alright dude? sounds like you've got some issues irl

An another example of what criticism is not. But a perfect example of what poor attempt of an insult is.

that wasn't criticism, that was concern

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@derd.6413 said:do you really believe you can make a good elite spec in 4 hours time even if you steal concepts from somebody else.

also rage skills were already just tweaked spectral skills.

Do you really think you really can make anything better than me even though i only used literally one word and words do not belong to anyone?

Also, you can't even compare rage to spectral.There is no spectral healing skill.Spectral grasp is a pull and chill - not a single rage skill work as such.Spectral armor is life force generator, stun breaker and free protection - and again not a single rage skill work that way.Spectral wall is fear + protection - not a single fear in rage skills.Spectral walk is another life force generator and swiftness - and once again not a single rage skill work like that.Do i even need to bring up Lich Form?

You are just picking on me without a reason and being nasty. I don't appreciate that.

first of all i said modified not a copy paste. spectral and rage skills are similar in that their defining trait is that using them gives class specific resources: life force for spectral skills (with spectral wall being the only outlier) and adrenaline for warrior.

i'm not picking on you. there's just very few things to say because all of your suggestions look like they where made by a 12 year old with no understanding of basic game design. if you post something on a public forum you have to expect ppl are gonna criticize your idea without sugarcoating it.

Yeah you're actually being a toxic person, just keeping it real.

Well, some people thing that being toxic is actual form of helpful criticism, and maybe people like that should be ignored.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@derd.6413 said:do you really believe you can make a good elite spec in 4 hours time even if you steal concepts from somebody else.

also rage skills were already just tweaked spectral skills.

Do you really think you really can make anything better than me even though i only used literally one word and words do not belong to anyone?

Also, you can't even compare rage to spectral.There is no spectral healing skill.Spectral grasp is a pull and chill - not a single rage skill work as such.Spectral armor is life force generator, stun breaker and free protection - and again not a single rage skill work that way.Spectral wall is fear + protection - not a single fear in rage skills.Spectral walk is another life force generator and swiftness - and once again not a single rage skill work like that.Do i even need to bring up Lich Form?

You are just picking on me without a reason and being nasty. I don't appreciate that.

first of all i said modified not a copy paste. spectral and rage skills are similar in that their defining trait is that using them gives class specific resources: life force for spectral skills (with spectral wall being the only outlier) and adrenaline for warrior.

i'm not picking on you. there's just very few things to say because all of your suggestions look like they where made by a 12 year old with no understanding of basic game design. if you post something on a public forum you have to expect ppl are gonna criticize your idea without sugarcoating it.

Yeah you're actually being a toxic person, just keeping it real.

Well, some people thing that being toxic is actual form of helpful criticism, and maybe people like that should be ignored.

I'd suggest that, don't follow in my foot steps in that regard it never ends well.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:What I critic here is your inability to accept critics like (and I'm not just looking at this thread):

Oh my golly lollipop, you thing i don't reflect on

ACTUAL

criticism and suggestions? Well, strap on you big boy clothes and brace yourself, because:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• 8 second long immunity to damage while deing able to deal damage as well is bad

F1 (Gourmet's Shroud)This shroud does not cost Hunger to enter and does not drain hunger passively. Instead, it have fixed duration of 7 sec. While in the shroud you take greatly reduced damage.Cooldown: 20 sec.Damage reduction: 33%

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You should focus on another condition than chill because chill is the main theme of reaper

That's illogical, because then no other necromancer future elite should be allowed to: chill, burn, corrupt boons, grant barrier, torment, bleed, leech, regenerate health, steal boons, support allies, have a power build, etc.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You shouldn't add condition damage onto a soft condition because our experience with reaper showed us that it's a bad thing, hindering teamplay

Disagree. It was awesome when chills done damage, but now it is garbage trait used by nobody.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You should stick to the necromancer base thematic

Elite Specs are supposed to be an unique new take on the class. Like magic-less warrior can become anti-magic mage through spellbreaker, or necromancer focused on aspect of deaths (chill, bleed, poison, etc) can now suddenly support allies with barrier and now can burn enemies.

@Dadnir.5038 said:All those suggestions and critics that you brush off, are legit and constructive even if you don't want to aknowledge it. And any time there is someone that just scratch your suggestion, looking at it from afar and say: "I like it", you immediatly beam with pride. This is why I say that all you want is positive feedback which is not necessarily something that you'll get here.

So, you are saying that i shouldn't brush off non-legit and nonconstructive comments? Also, have you stopped for a second and realized that answering to a comment as an automatic acknowledgement of that comment? No, of course you didn't.And this part "And any time there is someone that just scratch your suggestion, looking at it from afar and say: "I like it", you immediatly beam with pride" is simply put: pure nonsense. Even though i answer to all comment, for some reason i whouldn't answer to positive comments? Get out of here.That's is why i say some people couldn't offer constructive criticism even if their life depended on it, yet you think every comment they post is pure gold.

Regon, the way you react talk for you, you aren't able to handle any criticism. It's simply obvious from this answer to what I just told you.

And I'll, say it again, because this is something that benefit the reaper, a soft condition with damage added on top of it is bad design.

If anet made chill apply bleed it's for the single reason that bleed stack while chill don't which would make 1 condi reaper useless as soon as there is a 2nd condi reaper in a team. This game is a mmo where you have to play with other, an offensive trait that lose all effectiveness in a group situation is bad design because it hurt the group dynamic and the spec value in a content which is intended to be promoted: group play. Want it or not, deathly chill is now way better than it used to be because it allow group play without constraint while before it was easily forced into a dps loss as soon as you add another reaper.

I don't mind the fact that you value solo play, I'm quite a solo player myself, however group play is a large part, even essential part, of any mmorpg. Trait design that only make you good in solo play is and will always be a poor design choice and it was the case for the first deathly chill.

And for your information, Deathly chill is and have always been the corner stone of any condi reaper build. It has been devastatingly effective in WvW until PoF and at the moment it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps. So you saying that "nobody" take it, just show how bad your knowledge of the game is.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

If anet made chill apply bleed it's for the single reason that bleed stack while chill don't which would make 1 condi reaper useless as soon as there is a 2nd condi reaper in a team. This game is a mmo where you have to play with other, an offensive trait that lose all effectiveness in a group situation is bad design because it hurt the group dynamic and the spec value in a content which is intended to be promoted: group play. Want it or not, deathly chill is now way better than it used to be because it allow group play without constraint while before it was easily forced into a dps loss as soon as you add another reaper.

Are you sure this is the reason?Before burning and other similar conditions could stack they worked the same way as the old deathly chill.From my understanding, and i could be incorrect, deathly chills issue was not that damage was lost but that it was failing to tick at all on anything with a break bar because at the time this tech was new and soft cc like chill was basically inactive on bosses with breakbars. This caused it to undergo a change into what it is today.

How ever necros when traited with terror can still cause fear damage through breakbars even when the bar is not broken which leads me to think that what ever issue that was causing that got fixed at some point or another.

I feel like they could have fixed the issue if it was dps loss problem as other conditions worked similar along time ago not stacking in intensity.

While i think there shouldnt be too many iterations of the first deathly chill. Chill was a rarer condition that would have been worthy of dealing damage over time. Along with conditions like slow etc.

Cripple, weakness, vuln, are too common to deal any kind of damage over time though.

[Dadnir.5038]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

If anet made chill apply bleed it's for the single reason that bleed stack while chill don't which would make 1 condi reaper useless as soon as there is a 2nd condi reaper in a team. This game is a mmo where you have to play with other, an offensive trait that lose all effectiveness in a group situation is bad design because it hurt the group dynamic and the spec value in a content which is intended to be promoted: group play. Want it or not,

deathly chill

is now way better than it used to be because it allow group play without constraint while before it was easily forced into a dps loss as soon as you add another reaper.

Are you sure this is the reason?Before burning and other similar conditions could stack they worked the same way as the old deathly chill.From my understanding, and i could be incorrect, deathly chills issue was not that damage was lost but that it was failing to tick at all on anything with a break bar because at the time this tech was new and soft cc like chill was basically inactive on bosses with breakbars. This caused it to undergo a change into what it is today.

How ever necros when traited with terror can still cause fear damage through breakbars even when the bar is not broken which leads me to think that what ever issue that was causing that got fixed at some point or another.

I feel like they could have fixed the issue if it was dps loss problem as other conditions worked similar along time ago not stacking in intensity.

While i think there shouldnt be too many iterations of the first deathly chill. Chill was a rarer condition that would have been worthy of dealing damage over time. Along with conditions like slow etc.

Cripple, weakness, vuln, are too common to deal any kind of damage over time though.

Except that when condition worked differently they were underpowered and an hindrance to teamplay. Effective conditions spec were few in the first 3 years and as soon as you had to play as a team, you had to care about each and everyone kind of condi output. The change to how condi work help guardian to deal condi damage for example, same goes for elementalist and mesmers. Conditions damage were used for solo play (solo dungeon or solo roaming) but lost all effectiveness as soon as you had players alongside you.

With the ancient condition system, the condition damage a group could do was caped at 25 bleed, 25 torment, 25 confusion, 1 burn and 1 poison (the occasionnal necromancer fear didn't really change anything). You can think that it was a lot but in a group of 5 players, per player it was insignificant. That's why the "zerk" meta was a thing. Guardians and elementalists weren't even seen as being able to do any condition damage at all (well some very uncommon build proved this wrong for the elementalist, but elementalists like to be victims).

The ancient system was just terrible for teamplay. And having trait that make some conditions work the same way as the ancient system is just a mistake. On a bright side, it's not that problematic for terror because fear don't last long. But when you start to try and add such effect on chill or even weakness, it's just plain loss.

As for chill being a "rarer" condition, it's still a condition that every profession can add and thus being used to squize out the necromancer's chill. Making chill apply bleed instead freed the reaper from this concern and helped a lot in making it's damages more consistent. As a bonus, it also made the combo shroud#5+shroud#4 a proper dps increase since chill stacked duration cap at 5.

The way it work now is a hundred time better than it did before, it open teamplay, promote more "complexe" rotation and made the damage more sustainable. On top of that the change made it less toxic in spvp since it allowed anet to reduce the overall chill uptime of the reaper that made it to "oppressive". Now, the toxicity switched from control to damage in WvW for the single reason that anet balanced WvW as a part of PvE (which it isn't).

I want to point out that the dps loss isn't what's important, what's important is the bad synergy for teamplay. The necromancer in itself is already a terrible teammate, if he got traits that even hinder him in teamplay, it's like adding a new layer of bad design on top of some bad design.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:What I critic here is your inability to accept critics like (and I'm not just looking at this thread):

Oh my golly lollipop, you thing i don't reflect on

ACTUAL

criticism and suggestions? Well, strap on you big boy clothes and brace yourself, because:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• 8 second long immunity to damage while deing able to deal damage as well is bad

F1 (Gourmet's Shroud)This shroud does not cost Hunger to enter and does not drain hunger passively. Instead, it have fixed duration of 7 sec. While in the shroud you take greatly reduced damage.Cooldown: 20 sec.Damage reduction: 33%

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You should focus on another condition than chill because chill is the main theme of reaper

That's illogical, because then no other necromancer future elite should be allowed to: chill, burn, corrupt boons, grant barrier, torment, bleed, leech, regenerate health, steal boons, support allies, have a power build, etc.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You shouldn't add condition damage onto a soft condition because our experience with reaper showed us that it's a bad thing, hindering teamplay

Disagree. It was awesome when chills done damage, but now it is garbage trait used by nobody.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

• You should stick to the necromancer base thematic

Elite Specs are supposed to be an unique new take on the class. Like magic-less warrior can become anti-magic mage through spellbreaker, or necromancer focused on aspect of deaths (chill, bleed, poison, etc) can now suddenly support allies with barrier and now can burn enemies.

@Dadnir.5038 said:All those suggestions and critics that you brush off, are legit and constructive even if you don't want to aknowledge it. And any time there is someone that just scratch your suggestion, looking at it from afar and say: "I like it", you immediatly beam with pride. This is why I say that all you want is positive feedback which is not necessarily something that you'll get here.

So, you are saying that i shouldn't brush off non-legit and nonconstructive comments? Also, have you stopped for a second and realized that answering to a comment as an automatic acknowledgement of that comment? No, of course you didn't.And this part "And any time there is someone that just scratch your suggestion, looking at it from afar and say: "I like it", you immediatly beam with pride" is simply put: pure nonsense. Even though i answer to all comment, for some reason i whouldn't answer to positive comments? Get out of here.That's is why i say some people couldn't offer constructive criticism even if their life depended on it, yet you think every comment they post is pure gold.

Regon, the way you react talk for you, you aren't able to handle any criticism. It's simply obvious from this answer to what I just told you.

And I'll, say it again, because this is something that benefit the reaper, a soft condition with damage added on top of it is bad design.

If anet made chill apply bleed it's for the single reason that bleed stack while chill don't which would make 1 condi reaper useless as soon as there is a 2nd condi reaper in a team. This game is a mmo where you have to play with other, an offensive trait that lose all effectiveness in a group situation is bad design because it hurt the group dynamic and the spec value in a content which is intended to be promoted: group play. Want it or not,

deathly chill

is now way better than it used to be because it allow group play without constraint while before it was easily forced into a dps loss as soon as you add another reaper.

I don't mind the fact that you value solo play, I'm quite a solo player myself, however group play is a large part, even essential part, of any mmorpg. Trait design that only make you good in solo play is and will always be a poor design choice and it was the case for the first

deathly chill

.

And for your information,

Deathly chill

is and have always been the corner stone of any condi reaper build. It has been devastatingly effective in WvW until PoF and at the moment it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps. So you saying that "nobody" take it, just show how bad your knowledge of the game is.

Dadnir, the way you react talks for you, as you aren't able to handle not being right. It's simply obvious from this answer to what i just told you.And i will say it again, i really liked damage on chill and many people liked that as well.

And as far as i remember, class stacking is not a thing, so you will have no reason to worry about more than one reaper applying chills. And even more you can actually make groups without two reapers or have two different reapers: 1 focused on condition damage, 1 focused on power damage. This is a MMO where you have to play with others, after all. Others you can choose.

And deadly chills is now garbage nobody picks. Never seen a single build ever using it after the nerf.

Also, why do you think people can't make their own teams and discuss the traits they are picking? It is as if you think this isn't a mmo game and you can't chose with what kind of people you are playing.

And for your information.... deathly chills is garbage now. Adding utility with chills actually hurt you, because you can't afford lackluster abilities when you can get same amount of bleeds with 2 autoattacks from scepter.... Why would anyone pick that trait (or pick reaper over scourge for condition build) is beyond reason.

@Dadnir.5038 said:it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps

April 1st is already over, mate.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

If anet made chill apply bleed it's for the single reason that bleed stack while chill don't which would make 1 condi reaper useless as soon as there is a 2nd condi reaper in a team. This game is a mmo where you have to play with other, an offensive trait that lose all effectiveness in a group situation is bad design because it hurt the group dynamic and the spec value in a content which is intended to be promoted: group play. Want it or not,

deathly chill

is now way better than it used to be because it allow group play without constraint while before it was easily forced into a dps loss as soon as you add another reaper.

Are you sure this is the reason?Before burning and other similar conditions could stack they worked the same way as the old deathly chill.From my understanding, and i could be incorrect, deathly chills issue was not that damage was lost but that it was failing to tick at all on anything with a break bar because at the time this tech was new and soft cc like chill was basically inactive on bosses with breakbars. This caused it to undergo a change into what it is today.

How ever necros when traited with terror can still cause fear damage through breakbars even when the bar is not broken which leads me to think that what ever issue that was causing that got fixed at some point or another.

I feel like they could have fixed the issue if it was dps loss problem as other conditions worked similar along time ago not stacking in intensity.

While i think there shouldnt be too many iterations of the first deathly chill. Chill was a rarer condition that would have been worthy of dealing damage over time. Along with conditions like slow etc.

Cripple, weakness, vuln, are too common to deal any kind of damage over time though.

Except that when condition worked differently they were underpowered and an hindrance to teamplay. Effective conditions spec were few in the first 3 years and as soon as you had to play as a team, you had to care about each and everyone kind of condi output. The change to how condi work help guardian to deal condi damage for example, same goes for elementalist and mesmers. Conditions damage were used for solo play (solo dungeon or solo roaming) but lost all effectiveness as soon as you had players alongside you.

With the ancient condition system, the condition damage a group could do was caped at 25 bleed, 25 torment, 25 confusion, 1 burn and 1 poison (the occasionnal necromancer fear didn't really change anything). You can think that it was a lot but in a group of 5 players, per player it was insignificant. That's why the "zerk" meta was a thing. Guardians and elementalists weren't even seen as being able to do any condition damage at all (well some very uncommon build proved this wrong for the elementalist, but elementalists like to be victims).

The ancient system was just terrible for teamplay. And having trait that make some conditions work the same way as the ancient system is just a mistake. On a bright side, it's not that problematic for terror because fear don't last long. But when you start to try and add such effect on chill or even weakness, it's just plain loss.

As for chill being a "rarer" condition, it's still a condition that every profession can add and thus being used to squize out the necromancer's chill. Making chill apply bleed instead freed the reaper from this concern and helped a lot in making it's damages more consistent. As a bonus, it also made the combo shroud#5+shroud#4 a proper dps increase since chill stacked duration cap at 5.

The way it work now is a hundred time better than it did before, it open teamplay, promote more "complexe" rotation and made the damage more sustainable. On top of that the change made it less toxic in spvp since it allowed anet to reduce the overall chill uptime of the reaper that made it to "oppressive". Now, the toxicity switched from control to damage in WvW for the single reason that anet balanced WvW as a part of PvE (which it isn't).

I want to point out that the dps loss isn't what's important, what's important is the bad synergy for teamplay. The necromancer in itself is already a terrible teammate, if he got traits that even hinder him in teamplay, it's like adding a new layer of bad design on top of some bad design.

hmm i feel like they could have still found a way to fix it so that it could have remained the way it was. Some times having a unique thing is good design but not willing to do the work to make sure it functions while retaining that design is just subpar rationalization. It did fix some of necros slow ramp time which was one of the best things i liked about it.

I personally liked having another condition to do damage other than just bleed which is what necros real focus was on. Even now its mostly torment bleed some burning. Realistically they could have made chill stack, while only applying the slow effect 1 time just as they have done with poison and its healing reduction. They could have even fixed the durations if they done it this way and it would have still been fine. I would have like to see that more than what they have done now. It might be better but I severely lost my love for the trait when they changed it to something so common and general like that.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

Dadnir, the way you react talks for you, as you aren't able to handle not being right. It's simply obvious from this answer to what i just told you.And i will say it again, i really liked damage on chill and many people liked that as well.

And as far as i remember, class stacking is not a thing, so you will have no reason to worry about more than one reaper applying chills. And even more you can actually make groups without two reapers or have two different reapers: 1 focused on condition damage, 1 focused on power damage. This is a MMO where you have to play with others, after all. Others you can choose.

And deadly chills is now garbage nobody picks. Never seen a single build ever using it after the nerf.

Also, why do you think people can't make their own teams and discuss the traits they are picking? It is as if you think this isn't a mmo game and you can't chose with what kind of people you are playing.

And for your information.... deathly chills is garbage now. Adding utility with chills actually hurt you, because you can't afford lackluster abilities when you can get same amount of bleeds with 2 autoattacks from scepter.... Why would anyone pick that trait (or pick reaper over scourge for condition build) is beyond reason.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps

April 1st is already over, mate.

That's what team that optimize their comp in raid use:

https://snowcrows.com/raids/necromancer/https://discretize.eu/builds/necromancer/condition-reaper

If you look closely, you might even see that the dps is above scourge's.

Eddit: Let's take a look at metabattle, as much as I don't like this site:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer

You can find:https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Condi_DPShttps://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Procmancer_-_(WvW)

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

Dadnir, the way you react talks for you, as you aren't able to handle not being right. It's simply obvious from this answer to what i just told you.And i will say it again, i really liked damage on chill and many people liked that as well.

And as far as i remember, class stacking is not a thing, so you will have no reason to worry about more than one reaper applying chills. And even more you can actually make groups without two reapers or have two different reapers: 1 focused on condition damage, 1 focused on power damage. This is a MMO where you have to play with others, after all. Others you can choose.

And deadly chills is now garbage nobody picks. Never seen a single build ever using it after the nerf.

Also, why do you think people can't make their own teams and discuss the traits they are picking? It is as if you think this isn't a mmo game and you can't chose with what kind of people you are playing.

And for your information.... deathly chills is garbage now. Adding utility with chills actually hurt you, because you can't afford lackluster abilities when you can get same amount of bleeds with 2 autoattacks from scepter.... Why would anyone pick that trait (or pick reaper over scourge for condition build) is beyond reason.

@Dadnir.5038 said:it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps

April 1st is already over, mate.

That's what team that optimize their comp in raid use:

https://snowcrows.com/raids/necromancer/

https://discretize.eu/builds/necromancer/condition-reaper

If you look closely, you might even see that the dps is above scourge's.

Eddit: Let's take a look at metabattle, as much as I don't like this site:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer

You can find:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Condi_DPS

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Procmancer_-_(WvW

)

I still prefer Power, easier rotation, more durable; Axe looks cooler for a Second Set Main Hand Weapon for me aesthetically.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

Dadnir, the way you react talks for you, as you aren't able to handle not being right. It's simply obvious from this answer to what i just told you.And i will say it again, i really liked damage on chill and many people liked that as well.

And as far as i remember, class stacking is not a thing, so you will have no reason to worry about more than one reaper applying chills. And even more you can actually make groups without two reapers or have two different reapers: 1 focused on condition damage, 1 focused on power damage. This is a MMO where you have to play with others, after all. Others you can choose.

And deadly chills is now garbage nobody picks. Never seen a single build ever using it after the nerf.

Also, why do you think people can't make their own teams and discuss the traits they are picking? It is as if you think this isn't a mmo game and you can't chose with what kind of people you are playing.

And for your information.... deathly chills is garbage now. Adding utility with chills actually hurt you, because you can't afford lackluster abilities when you can get same amount of bleeds with 2 autoattacks from scepter.... Why would anyone pick that trait (or pick reaper over scourge for condition build) is beyond reason.

@Dadnir.5038 said:it's still the single trait that allow reaper to almost tie the scourge in dps

April 1st is already over, mate.

That's what team that optimize their comp in raid use:

https://snowcrows.com/raids/necromancer/

https://discretize.eu/builds/necromancer/condition-reaper

If you look closely, you might even see that the dps is above scourge's.

Eddit: Let's take a look at metabattle, as much as I don't like this site:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Necromancer

You can find:

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Condi_DPS

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Procmancer_-_(WvW

)

Why does scourge only have one weapon set in these? Why does reaper play 3 minions with no death magic traitline? Most of these do not make any sense, especially when scourge take bonus burns after casting punishments, but barely take any punishment abilities.... And nowhere in it does show damage meter....

[Dadnir.5038]

Why does scourge only have one weaponset?Because, for the sake of efficiency, you don't want at any moment to be locked out off scepter or torch for 10 seconds straigth yet, you do want to switch weapon to proc your sigil.

Why does reaper play 3 minions with no death magic traitline?Because minions don't need death magic traitline to add even a tiny bit of extra dps.

It's always for the sake of reaching the Most Efficient Tactic Available or if you prefer the best results possible. Taking a trait for the sake of 2 skills might not make sense superficially but this doesn't mean that this trait isn't the most efficient to achieve your purpose.

The dps done can be seen in the discussion window at the left bottom corner on the videos.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Why does scourge only have one weaponset?Because, for the sake of efficiency, you don't want at any moment to be locked out off scepter or torch for 10 seconds straigth yet, you do want to switch weapon to proc your sigil.

Then why does reaper have two weapons there and another weapon is greatsword which have 0 condition damage? For the sake of efficiency reaper should also have only 1 weapon, but it doesn't, because that was a crappy website.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Why does reaper play 3 minions with no death magic traitline?Because minions don't need death magic traitline to add even a tiny bit of extra dps.

OR you could pick utilities who deal actual damage, condition damage....

[TheSwede.9512]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

Then why does reaper have two weapons there and another weapon is greatsword which have 0 condition damage? For the sake of efficiency reaper should also have only 1 weapon, but it doesn't, because that was a crappy website.

Because unlike Scourge, Reaper doesn't have access to Torch Off-hand, only possessing Core Off-hand weapons which aren't really useful. Meanwhile, they're making use of the combination of the trait "Chilling Darkness" (Chill on Blind), "Deathly Chill" (Bleed on Chill) and The existance of Nightfall (A long-lasting Dark Field) and Gravedigger (A Whirl Finisher that procs 3 finishers per activation) on Greatsword. This translates to a lot of Bleeding through Combo finishers.On top of that, BiS gear for Condi professions in PvE is Viper, which comes with a hollabalooh of Power on top of COndition Damage, so Gravedigger still hits like a truck that can be rammed and spammed all the time below 50% HP.Don't assume that what is optimal for one build is also optimal for another, especially something like Weapon sets.

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Why does reaper play 3 minions with no death magic traitline?Because minions don't need death magic traitline to add even a tiny bit of extra dps.

OR you could pick utilities who deal actual damage, condition damage....

Blood Fiend is the only Heal on the Reaper's arsenal with consistent Damage (And Reaper needs all the help it can get in that department). Bone Fiend's attacks are considered Projectile Finishers originating on the Reaper (Which causes Blind in Dark Fields, thus causing Chill on occasion, thus causing Bleed) and finally Shadow Fiend causes Blind and Chill on its activated ability, thus causing Bleed as well. So this is indeed using "Actual Condition Damage" Utility Skills all around (Which isn't really a strength, as since they need to bring Damage on their utilities they can't bring any Utility to a fight like say Banner Warrior.)

[Dadnir.5038]

This is out of topic but, for the sake of answering the op questions:

Then why does reaper have two weapons there and another weapon is greatsword which have 0 condition damage?

Scourge due to core necromancer only have 1 MH weapon specialized in condition damage (scepter) and it's torch trait improve it's expertise, concentration and shorten torch cool down. It's because keeping the expertise bonus is the most efficient way to max out it's damages that scourge only use one weaponset.

On the other hand, the reaper is not shackled by this kind of thing but instead need to use more creative way to improve it's output. Which is, like theswede said a clever use of combo finishers, traits and combo fields.

OR you could pick utilities who deal actual damage, condition damage....

I'll answer this and detail my previous answer about why you don't take Death magic alongside your minions, to make it a bit clearer:Minions and especially range minions will hit your target periodically like an external condition. It's not exact numbers but:

• Bloodfiend have a dps equivalent to almost 1 bleed stack.
• Bone fiend have a dps equivalent to 3 bleed stacks.
• shadow fiend have a dps equivalent to 3 bleed stacks.

This make those 3 minions act effectively as 7 bleed stacks on your target. If you take death magic, you will just add more survivability on top of their already huge survivability: this will be a net dps loss versus any other traitline.

But, it's understandable that you would be concerned about why one would take theses minions over other utilities. First of all, Blood fiend is a heal that does free damage, this might be the most obvious choice when you try to squeeze every bit of dps. Then, bone fiend which is the most arguable of the minion taken give you in fact 2 projectile finisher each time it attack, in a group setting, this allow this minion to add some conditions damage and if it proc one of your traits, these conditions will be based on your condition damage stat. On top of that, bone fiend apply naturaly cripple and can be used to apply immobilize on the foes in order to hurt the breakbar. The last one is shadow fiend which is interesting due to it's ability to refill a bit of your life force and proc deathly chill.

These minions, due to the fact that they are almost everlasting on the battlefield grant you more damage over time than skills that deliver a single burst of damage and then fade away until their cool down is finished. And when you fight against large health pool foes, this make the difference.

On topic of the e-spec,

With the recent change to how gourmet shroud work, the spec is left with no way to prevent any incoming damages which make it extremly weak defensively. With the addition of the hunger punishment it will be extinguished in a matter of second in large scale fights. It's not that the mechanism are bad in themself but that core necromancer do not have anything to cope with this issue except it's specific shroud mechanism which is removed with this e-spec. This kind of shroud would work wonder on almost all other core professions of the game (minus thief and revenant) however the core necromancer would be lacking to support it.

The mechanism where minions are "eaten" is also a concern since the e-spec in itself doesn't seem focused on generating minions.

Additionnally, the name of the specialization could be "ghoul" instead of "cannibal".

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:With the recent change to how gourmet shroud work, the spec is left with no way to prevent any incoming damages which make it extremly weak defensively. With the addition of the hunger punishment it will be extinguished in a matter of second in large scale fights. It's not that the mechanism are bad in themself but that core necromancer do not have anything to cope with this issue except it's specific shroud mechanism which is removed with this e-spec. This kind of shroud would work wonder on almost all other core professions of the game (minus thief and revenant) however the core necromancer would be lacking to support it.

Major Trait 1 (Aware Flesh)Gain 3 sec of protection every 3 sec while at or above 66% of hunger. Your weapon abilities no longer reduce your hunger.

+

Master Minor Trait (Building Immunity)Every 5 sec turn one random damaging condition on you into 1 stack of might for 5 sec.

+

Major Trait 4 (Learn by Tasting)Consume 1 condition on yourself every 5 sec to heal yourself for 400 (scales with healing power) health while at or above 66% of hunger. Take 25% less periodic damage from high hunger.

+

Grandmaster Minor Trait (Am i Satisfied?)Killing an enemy will suppress all negative effects from hunger for 5 sec.

+

Major Trait 7 (Abandon Reason and Let the Feast Begin)While you are at or above 99% hunger you will have fury, alacrity and swiftness. These boons last as long as you have sufficient hunger and they can't be removed.

+

F1 (Gourmet's Shroud)This shroud does not cost Hunger to enter and does not drain hunger passively. Instead, it have fixed duration of 7 sec. While in the shroud you take greatly reduced damage.Cooldown: 20 sec.Damage reduction: 33%

+

Rage healing (Devour Everything)Heal yourself and reduce you hunger. In addition, for next few second heal yourself for 5% of damage taken by nearby enemies.Casting time: 1/2 secCooldown: 30 secHealing: 3000 (scales with healing power)Hunger reduction: 15% of your maximum hungerHealing from damage taken by nearby enemies: 5 secRadius: 600

+

Spectral Armor

+

Spectral Walk

+

Death Magic

+

Blood Magic

+

Soul Reaping

+

Other Rage abilities

=

There is a lot of things to support this elite in a defensive way or to reduce hunger. I don't see an augment about negative effects of hunger when you can easily reduce it, especially when you have to be constantly attacked for 10 sec to build 66% hunger, AND keeping in mind that traited Rage utility 3 (Devouring the World) can reduce hunger by 50% every 15 sec.

So, you can't say it is bad mechanic if you ignore all the ways to control it.

[Dadnir.5038]

I didn't say it was a bad mechanism, I said that the core necromancer is a bad match with it because in lare scale fight where it's difficult to go out of combat, you would melt in no time on any impact. The standard shroud mechanism (core and reaper) already reduce both condition damage and direct damage by 50% and hyde you behind an "health bubble" that can make use of the spectral armor and spectral walk life force generation to outsustain the damage taken.

Beside the "hunger" have a passive decay out of combat which mean that the gourmet shroud can't be readily available at the begining of a fight, effectively locking you out of your defensive tool when it might be needed.

What I say is that your mechanism and the skills/traits of this e-spec doesn't give any alternative that would allow one to survive an impact in WvW for example. The same way, the spec lacking dodge, block, evade, disengage or invuln make it exceedingly weak against burst specs like what we can see currently with the mesmer and the thief. Even if you had the time to react, your health would be so low that all this damage mitigation wouldn't let you avoid a certain death.

In a lot of way, this mechanism is more suitable for a warrior because it's close to the way adrenaline work and core warrior have the tools needed to nullify some damage in order to relieve high impact pressure.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:I didn't say it was a bad mechanism, I said that the core necromancer is a bad match with it because in lare scale fight where it's difficult to go out of combat, you would melt in no time on any impact.

And i corrected you on that by pointing out all the ways to defend, sustain health or reduce hunger.

@Dadnir.5038 said:The standard shroud mechanism (core and reaper) already reduce both condition damage and direct damage by 50% and hyde you behind an "health bubble" that can make use of the spectral armor and spectral walk life force generation to outsustain the damage taken.

True, but at first you need to generate lots of life force to actually get any benefits from shroud. If you get focused on the beginning of the fight, then shroud is pretty much useless, While this shroud can be used whenever you need it.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Beside the "hunger" have a passive decay out of combat which mean that the gourmet shroud can't be readily available at the begining of a fight, effectively locking you out of your defensive tool when it might be needed.

Except that you can use Gourmet Shroud whenever you want. Did you skip that part? Yes, you did.

@Dadnir.5038 said:What I say is that your mechanism and the skills/traits of this e-spec doesn't give any alternative that would allow one to survive an impact in WvW for example. The same way, the spec lacking dodge, block, evade, disengage or invuln make it exceedingly weak against burst specs like what we can see currently with the mesmer and the thief. Even if you had the time to react, your health would be so low that all this damage mitigation wouldn't let you avoid a certain death.

Mace 2 (Prepare the Meat) -> Daze: 1 secMace 4 (Seasoning Before Cooking) -> Healing per enemy struck: 100 (scales with healing power)Shroud 3 (Meat Separation) -> Stun: 2 secRage healing (Devour Everything) -> Healing from damage taken by nearby enemies: 5%, 5 secRage utility 2 (Throw Out Unfit Ingredients) -> Knock back range: 600Rage elite (The Last Supper) -> Stun: 2 secMajor Trait 8 (Gather the Ingredients) -> While in shroud you siphon health from nearby enemies dealing 130 (scales with power) damage every second and healing for 90 (scales with healing power) health. Radius: 600.

If you can't block the burst, then how about sustain it OR BETTER YES CC THE BURSTER.

And yeah, this elite is mostly for small scale battles and wouldn't do as good as scourge in large scale fights. And yes, current burst meta is toxic for any creative class design. But meta can chance at any time, and you don't have to pick this elite for WvW mass zerg fest.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I didn't say it was a bad mechanism, I said that the core necromancer is a bad match with it because in lare scale fight where it's difficult to go out of combat, you would melt in no time on any impact.

And i corrected you on that by pointing out all the ways to defend, sustain health or reduce hunger.

@Dadnir.5038 said:The standard shroud mechanism (core and reaper) already reduce both condition damage and direct damage by 50% and hyde you behind an "health bubble" that can make use of the spectral armor and spectral walk life force generation to outsustain the damage taken.

True, but at first you need to generate lots of life force to actually get any benefits from shroud. If you get focused on the beginning of the fight, then shroud is pretty much useless, While this shroud can be used whenever you need it.

Well, "whenever" is every 20 seconds.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Beside the "hunger" have a passive decay out of combat which mean that the gourmet shroud can't be readily available at the begining of a fight, effectively locking you out of your defensive tool when it might be needed.

Except that you can use Gourmet Shroud whenever you want. Did you skip that part? Yes, you did.

You can't expect someone to read 3 differents informations on the same skill when these informations are separated by walls of text. The first information is on the 1st minor trait then there is a wall of text about traits, a very short line about "F1", then mace skills and finally shroud skills. Don't blame anyone for skipping/forgetting a short line when the skills and ressource related to this line are far away in your wall of text.

However, In this light, since it doesn't cost anything what's it's relation with hunger? Can it really be qualified as a "shroud"? Unholy sanctuary need a minima of life force to trigger it's ability to nullify a deadly hit and send you into shroud, what does your e-spec pay as a cost for this effect?

@Dadnir.5038 said:What I say is that your mechanism and the skills/traits of this e-spec doesn't give any alternative that would allow one to survive an impact in WvW for example. The same way, the spec lacking dodge, block, evade, disengage or invuln make it exceedingly weak against burst specs like what we can see currently with the mesmer and the thief. Even if you had the time to react, your health would be so low that all this damage mitigation wouldn't let you avoid a certain death.

Mace 2 (Prepare the Meat) -> Daze: 1 secMace 4 (Seasoning Before Cooking) -> Healing per enemy struck: 100 (scales with healing power)Shroud 3 (Meat Separation) -> Stun: 2 secRage healing (Devour Everything) -> Healing from damage taken by nearby enemies: 5%, 5 secRage utility 2 (Throw Out Unfit Ingredients) -> Knock back range: 600Rage elite (The Last Supper) -> Stun: 2 secMajor Trait 8 (Gather the Ingredients) -> While in shroud you siphon health from nearby enemies dealing 130 (scales with power) damage every second and healing for 90 (scales with healing power) health. Radius: 600.

If you can't block the burst, then how about sustain it OR BETTER YES CC THE BURSTER.

And yeah, this elite is mostly for small scale battles and wouldn't do as good as scourge in large scale fights. And yes, current burst meta is toxic for any creative class design. But meta can chance at any time, and you don't have to pick this elite for WvW mass zerg fest.

Even warrior and it's numerous CC along with it's huge sustain can't readily use them as it's mean of defense, what give you the confidence that the necromancer can do it? The so called burst meta come and go since launch and is usually used for small scale fights, it's not a new thing... Be it mesmers osicat's shatter builds or thief extrem burst, that's nothing new, I've seen this since release and they didn't prevent anet from designing creative e-specs, only the necromancer is impeded by that.

Another thing bugging me is that while you showcase this as a CC heavy spec, there is no fear when it's the signature CC of the necromancer, why?

[Dadnir.5038]

Incompetence is not an excuse. If you start criticizing a concept without actually reading it, then your criticism is invalid be default as you don't even know what you are criticizing.

So I say that the way you give informations is not clear and thus I am incompetent? All in all, I just express objective concerns about the e-spec you published on a public forum. There is no need to be aggressive. It's common occurence that people just look quickly onto the main subject and then just express their interest over a small part of the content or discontent over another. Does that mean they are "incompetent"? Nope.

Because it already have enough CC, and elite doesn't need to focus on every single aspect of necromancer.

The question was more why do you focus on CC that are not necromancer's common CC even to the point of leaving aside his signature CC and effectively reducing the number of fear which would be usable? Fear as a CC is part of the necromancer's identity, no spec up to now removed this signature CC from their special mechanism, it is by no mean a "single aspect".

Also, You still didn't answer my concern about:

The mechanism where minions are "eaten" is also a concern since the e-spec in itself doesn't seem focused on generating minions.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Regon Phoenix.8215 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:So I say that the way you give informations is not clear and thus I am incompetent?

What is not clear? :DEverything is separated into different boxes. One box for traits, one box for abilities, one box for weapon, one box for shroud. You can't find better presented discussion made not by me.

Like I said that's not "1 box for shroud" that's "3 box for shroud" with each box separated by walls of text. To be clear, you should have included shroud skills in the "shroud box" instead of putting shroud skills apart and that's pretty much what other do usually.

You could also have saved some place and described the shroud in your trait box just below the hunger system. Then I wouldn't have minded the fact that shroud skill end up apart.

Everything explained, from numbers to percentages.And if you can't read or skip things when reading, then that is incompetency.

@Dadnir.5038 said:All in all, I just express

objective

concerns about the e-spec you published on a public forum. There is no need to be aggressive.

And where were i aggressive? Please, specify.

Maybe you think saying to someone that he is incompetent isn't rude or aggressive, I take note of it.

@Dadnir.5038 said:It's common occurence that people just look quickly onto the main subject and then just express their interest over a small part of the content or discontent over another. Does that mean they are "incompetent"? Nope.

Yes, yes it is. If you took at the first thing and find it "bad" without even looking few lines ahead explaining why it is actually good, then you are incompetent to comment about said thing and your opinions is invalid by default. Essentially, i could have stopped responding to you 10 comments ago and just told you "read whole concept before you comment", but i didn't out of courtesy. But i guess that's also aggressive, right?

We've had a "discussion" on various subject like minions, deathly chill and more, on which you expressed your opinion. You clearly rejected other arguments violently, even if everyting was explained point per point and supported by objective data that you chose not to acknowledge. What does this make you?

@Dadnir.5038 said:The question was more why do you focus on CC that are not necromancer's common CC even to the point of leaving aside his signature CC and effectively reducing the number of fear which would be usable? Fear as a CC is part of the necromancer's identity, no spec up to now removed this signature CC from their special mechanism, it is by no mean a "single aspect".

Deadeye removed signature steal and replaced with ranged version which also steal for some reason.Holosmith nearly overhauled engineer.Etc.Also, other classes have fear as well, so it is not only necromancer exclusive CC. And if you want fear, then Spectral Wall and Staff 5 still exists.

There is a difference between your example and what I talk about. For example, Steal is a mechanism while fear is a condition that define the necromancer. It's even a good thing to take thieves as an example because when they steal a necromancer they gain the exclusive bundle attached that fear foes around him. Alongside corruption and life steal, fear is an essential part of the necromancer while steal can only be qualified as a mean to an end, it is not class defining (a thief stealing a thief don't steal a bundle that allow you to "steal", instead, it steal things that define a thief like the ability to stealth oneself, blind or fury for the concept of high crit rate)

Thus I ask it again, why focus on CC that are mostly unrelated to the necromancer and reduce from this e-spec profession's defining CC?

@Dadnir.5038 said:Also, You still didn't answer my concern about:

Focuses on minions? Which ability focuses on minions? Not a single one. Some abilities ALLOW to be used on minions, but they DO NOT REQUIRE a minion.

But that's exactly the issue, why is there abilities that "consume" minion when the e-spec don't have any focus on producing some minion, this is illogic. And that's because it's illogic that I express this concern. It's like giving to a warrior a skill that eventually allow him to consume a minion, sure they could generate some minion with the proper runeset/sigil but it still wouldn't make sense.

[Regon Phoenix.8215]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Like I said that's not "1 box for shroud" that's "3 box for shroud" with each box separated by walls of text. To be clear, you should have included shroud skills in the "shroud box" instead of putting shroud skills apart and that's pretty much what other do usually.

You could also have saved some place and described the shroud in your trait box just below the hunger system. Then I wouldn't have minded the fact that shroud skill end up apart.

So, let me get this straight. I put everything in a readable manner separating everything into boxes so people would get confused and written everything so that any person could understand, and you still got confused?You talk an awful lot about being offensive and personal attacks, but you just admitted that you haven't read whole concept and you blame me for that? Looks like you are just another pot calling cattle black.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Maybe you think saying to someone that he is incompetent isn't rude or aggressive, I take note of it.

So, what do you think i should do to a person who haven't read what he is commenting about? Should i call you brave hero and give you a medal? Well, when you comment in a public forum expect people to criticize you. Often people criticize negatively, but you have to accept it and try to improve. Don't get all aggressive about criticism.

@Dadnir.5038 said:We've had a "discussion" on various subject like minions, deathly chill and more, on which you expressed your opinion. You clearly rejected other arguments violently, even if everyting was explained point per point and supported by objective data that you chose not to acknowledge. What does this make you?

Violently? :D so, do you feel violated? :DAlso, when will you address your incompetence? Why are you trying to scapegoat it? Is it too hard to admit that you don't know what you are talking about?

@Dadnir.5038 said:There is a difference between your example and what I talk about. For example, Steal is a mechanism while fear is a condition that define the necromancer. It's even a good thing to take thieves as an example because when they steal a necromancer they gain the exclusive bundle attached that fear foes around him. Alongside corruption and life steal, fear is an essential part of the necromancer while steal can only be qualified as a mean to an end, it is not class defining (a thief stealing a thief don't steal a bundle that allow you to "steal", instead, it steal things that define a thief like the ability to stealth oneself, blind or fury for the concept of high crit rate)

Really? Then warrior is also a necromancer? Is every class with rune of the sunless a necromancer? Also, do you get that you argue that no other elite of necromancer can't be made without fear?

@Dadnir.5038 said:But that's exactly the issue, why is there abilities that "consume" minion when the e-spec don't have any focus on producing some minion, this is illogic. And that's because it's illogic that I express this concern. It's like giving to a warrior a skill that eventually allow him to consume a minion, sure they could generate some minion with the proper runeset/sigil but it still wouldn't make sense.

Why does spellbreaker can dish out tons of damage when it is supposed to be defensive spec? Why mirage is dealing tons of power damage when it is supposed to be condition spec?And this elite have abilities who work alongside minions because:1) Thematics - it really fits theme of a canibal. If you can't find suitable enemies to feed on, then feed on your "friends";2) Make Minions Great Again3) Much wider build options4) Better abilities working with current necromancer's abilities

And you know what is actually illogical? Commenting about stuff you haven't even read.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

I know I'm derailing your thread, but I've got to ask questions regarding double Great Sword Condi Reaper, so basically your rotation is Shadow Fiend, 5,4,2, shroud 5,4, 1 a couple times, exit, weapon swap and repeat?