Suggestion: Deadeye's Mark should put the deadeye in combat

[Shadowcat.2680]

Deadeye's Mark currently does not put the deadeye in combat unless Steal is traited to do damage or cc (Mug or Sleight of Hand as examples). As such, a stealth camping Deadeye can mark a target and manipulate traits to get bonuses simultaneously from traits in the same line and tier as they're not actually in combat until they attack with their full stacks of malice.

In my opinion, Deadeye's Mark should put and keep the deadeye in combat to avoid such trait abuse. If the deadeye falls out of combat due to range, then all malice should be lost and the mark should have to be reapplied. Let out of combat be a true reset for both parties.

An example vid courtesy of MUDse of how a deadeye can currently abuse traits before attacking:

https://youtu.be/vF75Qv-gQIQ

[bq pd.2148]

i guess this will be moved to the thieves forum soon.

there are two things happening here in the video, that i would like to talk about sperately.

• most classes are able to stack boons/effects outside of combat and switch traits/utilities/weapons etc while keeping the effect. most commonly used probably by groups before a scrimm/GvG when they stack stealth many guards will shortly take a hammer to blast a smoke field and then switch it out. i would say that stacking perfectionist procs falls in this category. to prevent something like this, probably you would need to disable the ability to gain any effects while out of combat from traits/weapons/ammo skills/pets and also disable all combo fields/finishers from these while out of combat, because they all can be changed after being used while out of combat. also summoning minions and replacing the skill for LF is abusing this.
• the second thing happening here is remaining out of combat while gaining malice. mostly you will run some stealth camping build if you do not get into combat from marking. the time in stealth waiting for malice while it can be abused as you can see by the deadeye, the target also as a few seconds time to change utility/trait/weapon etc to face the deadeye as you might want other utilities to fight that build. if you get into combat just for being marked you can no longer switch in a skill to extend reveal duration when attacked ( important sidenote: reveals allways replace the previous one so wait towards the end of the 3s selfreveal from the attack).

specificly what you can see in the video is regaining a perfectionist proc, this is a proc that will grant you many boons for reaching maximum malice by changing the maximum the trait reprocs. it is not using benefits of 2 traits, it just recreates/changes the condition for one trait. with the last balance patch (not split) the mark base duration was extended to 30s and cd reduced to 25s so you can keep the mark up on you target. if you remark the same target you keep your malice stacks wich is good in the way that a deadeye is no longer only able to profit from it in a tiny window. but the problem is, even if i keep my target marked 3 minutes because i solo the lord in the bilstering undercroft ( western keep on DBL) then i will get my perfectionist proc after ~10 seconds or so and it wont proc again till i drop the mark. it would be better for the deadeye if the perfectionist proc would pulsate while at maximum malice lets say every 10 -15 seconds. depending on how that is coded the spamm of the proc outside of combat you see in the video would also be no longer possible.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:In my opinion, Deadeye's Mark should put and keep the deadeye in combat to avoid such trait abuse. If the deadeye falls out of combat due to range, then all malice should be lost and the mark should have to be reapplied.

if the mark is keeping you in combat, it will be hard to run away from it so the reset malice when out of combat is obsolete. as from the 1. april patchnotes:

The maximum range for the Deadeye specialization has been increased to 30,000 to better reflect reality.not sure what that range is about, but i have yet to see the mark drop from being too far on range. so no longer running away and WP.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:As such, a stealth camping Deadeye can mark a target and manipulate traits to get bonuses simultaneously from traits in the same line and tier as they're not actually in combat until they attack with their full stacks of malice.

as said above i dont use benefits of multiple traits in the video. i just change my maximum malice to reproc perfectionist, i could aswell swap between M7 and FfE instead of M7 and BQoBK.to really use benefits of 2 traits that you cant run together by using an out of combat mark, you need to trait unforgiving while marking and then one of the other options as that unforgiving buff wont drop, this could be fixed.

[Shadowcat.2680]

The 30,000 range is from the April Fool's patch notes. :) The Mark doesn't seem to fall off from any range currently, but a set range for the Mark to persist seems like a change that could and should be implemented (like the change to Death's Judgment to only grant its bonus damage to the marked target).

As far as other professions being able to abuse traits before combat begins: deadeye has a unique advantage with such thanks to the amount of stealth it has access to on top of a profession mechanic that will passively stack a damage modifier for the deadeye. It has the freedom to manipulate traits right before its opening attack whereas other professions quickly get put in combat and don't have a passively generated damage modifier. They have damage modifying traits, like a warrior's Berserker's Power, meant to increase damage in combat, but I'm not aware of any other stacking damage modifier that can be generated passively.

Posted this in the WvW forum because WvW is the mode where deadeyes of the stealth camping variety seem to be an issue. And it's a WvW clip.

Edited to add: as far as Perfectionist goes, it seems intentional for the deadeye to get just the single proc since Perfectionist gets triggered only by reaching maximum malice and will not trigger again after that. It offers a pretty potent spread of boons for a minor trait and shouldn't be able to be procced twice thus stacking said boons by toying with how many stacks of malice the minor trait considers to be the deadeye's maximum.

[bq pd.2148]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:but a set range for the Mark to persist seems like a change that could and should be implemented (like the change to Death's Judgment to only grant its bonus damage to the marked target).the deadeye is designed currently to allways have a target he is after so he has a mark up or ready. if the target leaves the map renewing gaze procs wich resets mark cd, this should also proc it the target can cancel the mark by running away in the future. but the nature of how malice is build might be the reason you keep the mark, till malice is up you probably wont need to care for a DJ so you could with frequent resets try to kill me before i become a threat this way.As far as other professions being able to abuse traits before combat begins: deadeye has a unique advantage with such thanks to the amount of stealth it has access to on top of a profession mechanic that will passively stack a damage modifier for the deadeye. It has the freedom to manipulate traits right before its opening attack whereas other professions quickly get put in combat and don't have a passively generated damage modifier. They have damage modifying traits, like a warrior's Berserker's Power, meant to increase damage in combat, but I'm not aware of any other stacking damage modifier that can be generated passively.

when you use a burst skill as core warrior with berserkers power you will instantly gain up to 21% more damage , the deadeye has to wait till he gets the full bonus - how is that an advantage? they require the warrior to land his burst skill and the deadeye to land his mark.having alot of stealth and therefore being able to decide when to attack if this is an issue it should be addressed differently. i can also while keeping up stealth change my build between daredevil and deadeye and change all traits, then you would need to ask stealth to set me in combat not mark. for some tower/keep lords i do that when i remained stealth inside and want to use a more efficient build for the PvE encounter, changing build in stealth ensures i do not get suprised while having my screen covered in UI.

Posted this in the WvW forum because WvW is the mode where deadeyes of the stealth camping variety seem to be an issue. And it's a WvW clip.deadeyes of the stealth camping variety are only useful in WvW, this is correct - but an issue, i am not so sure about that.

[Shadowcat.2680]

I wouldn't equate changing a build while stealthed on core thief or daredevil to swapping traits around while a target is marked as a deadeye. Anyone can change their build to better suit an upcoming fight if they have enough warning about the kind of foe they're about to engage. Deadeye can uniquely stay out of combat while gaining a stacking damage modifier. To stay with the warrior example (solely because it is another stacking, in-combat modifier), the warrior is in combat before he ever lands the burst to grant that 21% bonus. He's not going to be able to be in his UI changing traits before hitting with it.

Renewing Gaze should absolutely reset the Mark when combat resets if they ever do implement a range for the Mark to persist. A target breaking combat shouldn't be able to deprive a deadeye of its profession mechanic.

[bq pd.2148]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:I wouldn't equate changing a build while stealthed on core thief or daredevil to swapping traits around while a target is marked as a deadeye. Anyone can change their build to better suit an upcoming fight if they have enough warning about the kind of foe they're about to engage.

you said before:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:As far as other professions being able to abuse traits before combat begins: deadeye has a unique advantage with such thanks to the amount of stealth it has access to[..] It has the freedom to manipulate traits right before its opening attack whereas other professions quickly get put in combat

so is stealth now an adavtage as i can change stuff around right before the encounter or not?

then lets compare malice with another modifier, arcane lightning granted by the elementalist trait elemental surge. its also a modifier that is granted on casting a skill and you also do not need to be in combat to keep this one up but you will gain all the bonus instantly and do not have to wait for it to build up. so how is this slow build up after the application of the mark a benefit? would you grant me instant full malice on mark if that would put me in combat? i guess most deadeyes would gladly accept that tradeoff.

Edited to add: as far as Perfectionist goes, it seems intentional for the deadeye to get just the single proc since Perfectionist gets triggered only by reaching maximum malice and will not trigger again after that. It offers a pretty potent spread of boons for a minor trait and shouldn't be able to be procced twice thus stacking said boons by toying with how many stacks of malice the minor trait considers to be the deadeye's maximum.

originally malice would allways drop to 0 after a maximum of 25 seconds, most opponents in this game are dead after this time aside from PvE bosses. so it was not needed to proc perfectionist multiple times during one mark. now realizing that fights can actually be longer than 25 seconds we are now able too keep up malice to not drop in DPS till our set target is dead. for those longer fights the perfectionist traits design doesnt work anymore.if they change this trait to proc while at maximum malice instead of when reaching maximum malice with a 10-15 sec cooldown, then the thing you have an issue with woudnt be possible anymore - why dont you like this way of solving the problem? it would also help more boon heavy s/x deadeye builds that do not camp stealth and maybe help the deadeye overall as it is not particularly known to be a strong elite spec.

[Shadowcat.2680]

I don't think they would change Perfectionist to proc while at maximum malice instead of when reaching it without first toning down Perfectionist. Perfectionist as it is on a 10 or 15 sec cooldown would be permanent or near permanent protection for the deadeye in addition to maintaining 20+ stacks of might almost from Perfectionist alone. But, if they did implement such a change, I wouldn't have an issue with it outside of considering it possibly overtuned. The ability to gain a minor trait's bonus twice is my issue with the deadeye example: it's only possible because the Mark mechanic stacks malice while the deadeye is technically out of combat.

The issue is not being able to grant oneself bonuses outside of combat. The issue is being able to manipulate traits to get bigger bonuses than seems intended for those traits all while malice is building its damage modifiers. Changing Perfectionist to instead be Combat Only would also be a possible fix for that particular minor trait, but I think having the Mark keep a deadeye in combat would be the more sensible change as I see nothing wrong with deadeyes being able to initiate combat with a burst from stealth: they just shouldn't be able to grant themselves more bonuses than their traits would normally allow.

[bq pd.2148]

the issue i see with mark setting you in combat is that it is just a damage modifier if you do not add traits to it. it does not damage and does not apply any effect on the target aside from a visual tell, indicating a targeted damage modifier, a warning. and as already mentioned it gives the deadeyes target the option to also switch something before the fight begins.

stealth deadeye that only tries to oneshot will do that with either backstab or DJ. lets see what your proposed change would do to the burst potential in a situation similar to the video not much would change , just i would run FfE in this scenario and will cast f2 during backstab cast. then i will have 6% less damage modifier from malice and 4 stacks less might - wouldnt change much of the outcome but i would attack sooner. in the case of a DJ it is mostly overkill anyway. so basically for damage the traitswap only makes for nicer overkill numbers but is not needed.the advantage i potentially get from this is swiftness, vigor, protection to safe me from a failed burst followed by an intterupted stealth attempt (base protection duration is longer then selfreveal anyway), tho this far i dont think it ever safed me.

you would need 100% boonduration for a permanent uptime of protection or 20 stacks might if the trait would trigger every 10seconds. those 10sec was just an example btw, could be probably anything.another option could be:make perfectionist give the deadeye an effect when marking an opponent, like unfogiving does but it procs the moment you got max malice on the target. this way you get 1x perfectionist per mark cast. and unfogiving ofc needs to drop the effect if you change the trait as you cant untrait perfectionist you wont have the same issue here.i just think there must be an option to solve the issue, without a bandaid fix like making mark set you in combat.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

Just a thought, but when malice dropped off after 25s the boons from perfectionist were essentially on a 15s cd then (mark had 20s cd and you had 5-8s to spike after proccing perfectionist before losing malice), so they obviously thought the boons were fine with that sort of application already.

And honestly, perma stealth deadeye isn't a problem, even if people are using this trick. Honestly I didn't know about it until MUDse posted about it the other day, and have never been bothered enough to use it.

[bq pd.2148]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:And honestly, perma stealth deadeye isn't a problem, even if people are using this trick. Honestly I didn't know about it until MUDse posted about it the other day, and have never been bothered enough to use it.

because it doesnt actually change anything, you still need to land the hit and it is also a onehit without it- it just increases the number a little and you got something to click while waiting for the malice to build up :D

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Shadowcat.2680 said:The 30,000 range is from the April Fool's patch notes. :) The Mark doesn't seem to fall off from any range currently, but a set range for the Mark to persist seems like a change that could and should be implemented (like the change to Death's Judgment to only grant its bonus damage to the marked target).

As far as other professions being able to abuse traits before combat begins: deadeye has a unique advantage with such thanks to the amount of stealth it has access to on top of a profession mechanic that will passively stack a damage modifier for the deadeye. It has the freedom to manipulate traits right before its opening attack whereas other professions quickly get put in combat and don't have a passively generated damage modifier. They have damage modifying traits, like a warrior's Berserker's Power, meant to increase damage in combat, but I'm not aware of any other stacking damage modifier that can be generated passively.

Posted this in the WvW forum because WvW is the mode where deadeyes of the stealth camping variety seem to be an issue. And it's a WvW clip.

Edited to add: as far as Perfectionist goes, it seems intentional for the deadeye to get just the single proc since Perfectionist gets triggered only by reaching maximum malice and will not trigger again after that. It offers a pretty potent spread of boons for a minor trait and shouldn't be able to be procced twice thus stacking said boons by toying with how many stacks of malice the minor trait considers to be the deadeye's maximum.

Welcome to Shadow Arts. Similarly, welcome to power shatter mesmer.

The reason they took away the massive might stacking in SA was exactly this problem.

DE just encourages the same style of play and unveils the same problems again. Unfortunately, this seems to be its intended functionality.

This is why a lot of thieves were so anti-sniper when the idea was being tossed around. The problems are design-level because why DE may not be overpowered, it's a problem from the game's healthy gameplay and playability perspective.

While I don't think DE is the real culprit - the real one here is SA and stealth-burst builds - SA cannot be reworked until stealth is reworked, and it's been over five years and stealth is still a problem which nobody can agree upon as far as answering the question as to how it should be fixed.

[Turk.5460]

If you want a change here, be prepared for things like: "Cannot equip a new weapon while one of the abilities is on cooldown."

Say goodbye to Rangers/Druids equipping GS for Swoop while travelling, then immediately re-equipping Staff or Longbow. Because this is the exact same type of mechanic. Or similar weaponswap/equip actions.

[Shadowcat.2680]

I know deadeye doesn't need this trick to achieve its damage. It still shouldn't be possible to "trick" the system into stacking a second Perfectionist proc on top of the first by changing how many max stacks of malice the deadeye has (five or seven). Putting an icd on Perfectionist and changing its functionality to be while the deadeye has max malice instead of when reaching it is one possible solution, but I'm not sure that multiple Perfectionist procs are what Anet intends with this minor trait now that malice stays at max. Previously, deadeyes did get a new proc of Perfectionist after building malice each time. It might be an oversight on Anet's part that Perfectionist wasn't changed when malice was changed to stay at max, but it seems more like a tradeoff to me. One Perfectionist proc per marked target instead of a new one every 15ish secs since deadeyes now stay at max malice once reaching it.

Giving Perfectionist a unique buff like Unforgiving would be a better solution, definitely. I tested it, and you cannot abuse Unforgiving the way you can Perfectionist. If you trait Unforgiving, mark something, and then un-trait Unforgiving, you keep the buff's icon for Unforgiving but your first attack doesn't do the stun. If they changed Perfectionist to work similarly, then the trick of stacking a second Perfectionist proc would no longer be possible.