Observations playing Condi in PvP

[Obtena.7952]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Chasing meta doesn't make sense. Besides, I haven't made an incorrect statement here. 'Not being viable' isn't a reason to buff things, otherwise EVERY single underperforming skill/.trait/effect would be justified for a buff just because there is something better. That's how you get power creep. We can see that's not how this game works. There are reasons to change things, but I'm of the belief that based on observing the game, performance isn't too highly ranking on that list.

This thread has largely revolved around convincing you that the Engineer's condi mechanics need positive change in PvP modes, let's stop that. Why don't you tell us what should be done

For starter's how about we not petition Anet take 'bottom of the barrel' builds and bring them all the way up to builds that people consider viable? That's an unnecessary amount of work to simply give a class more viable PVP builds.

I won't pretend that I'm an Engi PVP expert, but I can spot idea that's don't make sense. If condi engi is SO bad at PVP, why would THIS be the thing we ask Anet to improve on a class just to give more viable builds?

I'm more of the camp that specific tools be improved, like your idea to change how Juggernaut works, or improving kits; this kind of idea is a sure way to open up the field without targetting specific builds for improvement. Anet has never targeted specific builds for improvement in PVP for a class, so why does it make sense to just ask for it now? You know that's now how they operate. I can tell based on how you make your suggestions. The Juggernaut idea makes sense because it doesn't have the intention to buff a very

specific

build ... I'm of the opinion that targeting condi builds ... just because they underperform, ins't a sound strategy ... so if something changes and condi builds aren't good again (or OP'ed?) then anet has to change them AGAIN? You know that's not a good idea.

You keep repeating not to buff 'builds' but a big part that people are upset about is Incendiary Ammunition and Incendiary Powder gutting. Lots of builds can use those mechanics, one's a Flamethrower skill, and one's a trait which is accessible to many builds. If somebody says 'buff condi builds' please forgive them for their ignorance, yes, yes, we understand. You are continuing to nitpick on what's 'a build' and what's a 'tool' of a build. You're just 100% arguing semantics here.

If you agree with some of my suggestions to buff widely useful tools of Core Engi, then you can't say that buffing other tools like FT toolbelt or Incendiary Powder is just 'chasing meta'. No suggestions have been made to make anything on Engi 'meta', I think most would agree having our mediocre spot as C tier would be fine for flamethrower builds in PvP, instead of F tier.

True, and I never indicated buffing other TOOLS like the ones you mentioned is chasing meta. To be fair, the complaint from the OP is so damn vague, massive in scope and void of suggestions, it's pretty hard to have any common ground other than "Yes, condi engi builds aren't good in PVP". Let's be clear here. The OP is complaining a family of builds (or spec, or whatever it's called) works poorly in PVP; that's not an exceptional situation in this game and it's never been a reason for Anet to do anything about that situation either. This might be setting some low expectation but ... I believe that if there is even ONE good 'spec' for PVP on a class that players can take variations on, that's already ahead of the curve for what Anet demonstrates in their balancing efforts. Asking for even more on top of that ... I would hate to see what trainwreck results from that effort.

IMO, the difference between buffing a 'build' (or a family of them, like condi engi) is a big difference from buffing specific tools. That's semantics? I don't believe so, because buffing a build, spec, family of builds, whatever to chase meta and become 'viable' is completely different than looking at a skill/trait and coming to the conclusion it's underwhelming and has little purpose. I too was put off by the changes to Incendiary Ammunition and Incendiary Powder ... I also see Anet pushing good things into Scrapper. I have no doubt there is a (long, convoluted, and winding) roadmap to specs Anet are targeting to be PVP-oriented; I can't help but think Condi Engi isn't one of them. I can only speculate because it's harder to maintain a level of play and performance with ... as we can see from this thread and how condi engi performed in the past.

[EUmad.7645]

Condi mirage is really viable in spvp. I am not saying that it is better than meta but it is viable ( i find the old disenchanter meta build till really good ) . Why should not engi have a viable condi build as mirage ?

[Vagrant.7206]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Chasing meta doesn't make sense. Besides, I haven't made an incorrect statement here. 'Not being viable' isn't a reason to buff things, otherwise EVERY single underperforming skill/.trait/effect would be justified for a buff just because there is something better. That's how you get power creep. We can see that's not how this game works. There are reasons to change things, but I'm of the belief that based on observing the game, performance isn't too highly ranking on that list.

This thread has largely revolved around convincing you that the Engineer's condi mechanics need positive change in PvP modes, let's stop that. Why don't you tell us what should be done

For starter's how about we not petition Anet take 'bottom of the barrel' builds and bring them all the way up to builds that people consider viable? That's an unnecessary amount of work to simply give a class more viable PVP builds.

I won't pretend that I'm an Engi PVP expert, but I can spot idea that's don't make sense. If condi engi is SO bad at PVP, why would THIS be the thing we ask Anet to improve on a class just to give more viable builds?

I'm more of the camp that specific tools be improved, like your idea to change how Juggernaut works, or improving kits; this kind of idea is a sure way to open up the field without targetting specific builds for improvement. Anet has never targeted specific builds for improvement in PVP for a class, so why does it make sense to just ask for it now? You know that's now how they operate. I can tell based on how you make your suggestions. The Juggernaut idea makes sense because it doesn't have the intention to buff a very

specific

build ... I'm of the opinion that targeting condi builds ... just because they underperform, ins't a sound strategy ... so if something changes and condi builds aren't good again (or OP'ed?) then anet has to change them AGAIN? You know that's not a good idea.

You keep repeating not to buff 'builds' but a big part that people are upset about is Incendiary Ammunition and Incendiary Powder gutting. Lots of builds can use those mechanics, one's a Flamethrower skill, and one's a trait which is accessible to many builds. If somebody says 'buff condi builds' please forgive them for their ignorance, yes, yes, we understand. You are continuing to nitpick on what's 'a build' and what's a 'tool' of a build. You're just 100% arguing semantics here.

If you agree with some of my suggestions to buff widely useful tools of Core Engi, then you can't say that buffing other tools like FT toolbelt or Incendiary Powder is just 'chasing meta'. No suggestions have been made to make anything on Engi 'meta', I think most would agree having our mediocre spot as C tier would be fine for flamethrower builds in PvP, instead of F tier.I have no doubt there is a (long, convoluted, and winding) roadmap to specs Anet are targeting to be PVP-oriented; I can't help but think Condi Engi isn't one of them. I can only speculate because it's harder to maintain a level of play and performance with ... as we can see from this thread and how condi engi performed in the past.

Hard to argue with that, they have made abundantly clear they have no real intention of touching core engineer other than to nerf it to make e-specs look better.

• Confusion revert --> They band-aided mirage confusion damage to agony, but did nothing for other classes that use confusion, particularly engineer, which probably has the second most access to confusion besides mesmer.
• Stacks to Duration change --> They targeted core condition engineer stacks which were not overperforming in any regards, which turned the already bad condi engineer into an unusable condi engineer in PvP and changed relatively little in PvE.
• The recent "buffs" to pistol --> Were throwaway buffs at best. Cooldown reduction isn't what PvP pistols needed, and anybody who knew condition engineer understood that.
• Damage changes in kits --> Largely irrelevant except to make holosmith stand out more. Let's make fire bomb do more physical damage, because that makes sense.

[Obtena.7952]

@EUmad.7645 said:Condi mirage is really viable in spvp. I am not saying that it is better than meta but it is viable ( i find the old disenchanter meta build till really good ) . Why should not engi have a viable condi build as mirage ?

I dunno, why should it? Is there some ruling I'm not aware of that says if condi mirage is good in PVP, so should condi engi? I mean, I don't even see what one has to do with the other at all; I'm pretty sure they have nothing to do with each other at all.

[coro.3176]

It's not a rule, but it is an ideal to strive toward. A game where each class has multiple viable builds is more complex, interesting, and fun than a game where each class has zero or one.

Again, this isn't asking for it to be meta, just viable. There was a time (pre-June2015) when there existed a meta build for each class, but then many other non-meta but viable builds all within ~10% of the effectiveness of the meta build. Currently, the game is in a state where the meta build for each class is a solid 50% or more better than others.

[Obtena.7952]

@coro.3176 said:It's not a rule, but it is an ideal to strive toward. A game where each class has multiple viable builds is more complex, interesting, and fun than a game where each class has zero or one.

Again, this isn't asking for it to be meta, just viable. There was a time (pre-June2015) when there existed a meta build for each class, but then many other non-meta but viable builds all within ~10% of the effectiveness of the meta build. Currently, the game is in a state where the meta build for each class is a solid 50% or more better than others.

There is no confusion here. I know it's ideal and I know you don't want it to be meta. Regardless, ideals are the pinnacle and condi builds are the farthest away from that ideal. yet somehow you believe it's THE reasonable answer. I'm just going to say that maybe if you are lucky, something will change in the game where the meta shifts to making condi build on engi 'viable'. until then, I don't see much chance of Anet taking specific actions to target it as needing improvement for PVP.

[Chaith.8256]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:It's not a rule, but it is an ideal to strive toward. A game where each class has multiple viable builds is more complex, interesting, and fun than a game where each class has zero or one.

Again, this isn't asking for it to be meta, just viable. There was a time (pre-June2015) when there existed a meta build for each class, but then many other non-meta but viable builds all within ~10% of the effectiveness of the meta build. Currently, the game is in a state where the meta build for each class is a solid 50% or more better than others.

There is no confusion here. I know it's ideal and I know you don't want it to be meta. Regardless, ideals are the pinnacle and condi builds are the farthest away from that ideal. yet somehow you believe it's THE reasonable answer. I'm just going to say that maybe if you are lucky, something will change in the game where the meta shifts to making condi build on engi 'viable'. until then, I don't see much chance of Anet taking specific actions to target it as needing improvement for PVP.

Hmm, A.I. builds are far from a PvP ideal. The skills rotting in obscurity here are for the good of the game.

I think you're pretty alone in thinking condi builds as an archetype are far from the PvP ideal. To each their own

Edit: The reason you differ from Engi mains on this is probably because condi Engi was a fun, viable, but not overpowering presence in 2014-2015 during the golden age of gw2 balance

[Obtena.7952]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:It's not a rule, but it is an ideal to strive toward. A game where each class has multiple viable builds is more complex, interesting, and fun than a game where each class has zero or one.

Again, this isn't asking for it to be meta, just viable. There was a time (pre-June2015) when there existed a meta build for each class, but then many other non-meta but viable builds all within ~10% of the effectiveness of the meta build. Currently, the game is in a state where the meta build for each class is a solid 50% or more better than others.

There is no confusion here. I know it's ideal and I know you don't want it to be meta. Regardless, ideals are the pinnacle and condi builds are the farthest away from that ideal. yet somehow you believe it's THE reasonable answer. I'm just going to say that maybe if you are lucky, something will change in the game where the meta shifts to making condi build on engi 'viable'. until then, I don't see much chance of Anet taking specific actions to target it as needing improvement for PVP.

Hmm, A.I. builds are far from a PvP ideal. The skills rotting in obscurity here are for the good of the game.

I think you're pretty alone in thinking condi builds as an archetype are far from the PvP ideal. To each their own

Edit: The reason you differ from Engi mains on this is probably because condi Engi was a fun, viable, but not overpowering presence in 2014-2015 during the golden age of gw2 balance

The ideal I refer to here is the one where Anet can take one specific build (or family) of them and do very specific things to it to maintain their position in the performance in a specific game mode over time. That's just not how this game works or ever worked. That's exactly what the OP is asking for. That's not even how the game is balanced ... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

I'm fully aware of the rise and fall of condi engi builds for PVP. I see no problem with that; it's how the game works because of the design.

[Chaith.8256]

@Obtena.7952 said:... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

ArenaNet buffs and nerfs very erratically, how can you know they won't randomly select things for buffs like: incendiary powder/incendiary ammunition, bombs, firearms in general?

We had a family of builds directly shifted in the great condi nerf patch, what makes you certain they won't reverse it, or what makes you so sure of anything that means we should no longer talk about what should be

[Obtena.7952]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

ArenaNet buffs and nerfs very erratically, how can you know they won't randomly select things for buffs like: incendiary powder/incendiary ammunition, bombs, firearms in general?

We had a family of builds directly shifted in the great condi nerf patch, what makes you certain they won't reverse it, or what makes you so sure of anything that means we should no longer talk about what should be

That's what I've been saying. Their efforts are not targeted at specific builds for specific game modes. They are erratic. That's why I have no illusions they look at condi engi and decide it's getting buffs for PVP. There is 6 years of consistent behaviour from Anet to suggest we can pretty assured this isn't not how they do things. Even WITH splits now ... they are broadly applying changes to durations that in no way can be intended to buff any specific kind of build in PVP.

[coro.3176]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

ArenaNet buffs and nerfs very erratically, how can you know they won't randomly select things for buffs like: incendiary powder/incendiary ammunition, bombs, firearms in general?

We had a family of builds directly shifted in the great condi nerf patch, what makes you certain they won't reverse it, or what makes you so sure of anything that means we should no longer talk about what should be

That's what I've been saying. Their efforts are not targeted at specific builds for specific game modes. They are erratic. That's why I have no illusions they look at condi engi and decide it's getting buffs for PVP.

They do, in fact, target specific builds and specific game modes.

From balance patch notes:

Spirit weapons have not felt solid due to having a few too many restrictions on their use, so the time between uses was reduced for all spirit weapons except the crowd-controlling hammer. Several firebrand skills were too powerful, which became very clear in PvP and WvW games, so defensive tomes received tweaks in those modes....Scourge shades have long been a pain point in PvP and WvW with their rapid corruption and few tells for players to spot. In this update, we're introducing better tells for shade actions, reducing the more oppressive condition applications, and easing up on the punishing boon corruptions. On the other side of things, we improved the effects of Vampiric Presence to make it competitive with the auras of other professions.

What's this? A specifically targeted pvp nerf and specifically targeted pvp buff aimed at making an underperforming skills competitive with other professions

Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts. Impossible Odds, Phase Traversal, and the Focused Siphoning trait were changed to give the Shiro Tagachi invocation and the Devastation specialization more burst potential.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Condition-build engineers have been languishing behind their power-build counterparts...

[Obtena.7952]

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

ArenaNet buffs and nerfs very erratically, how can you know they won't randomly select things for buffs like: incendiary powder/incendiary ammunition, bombs, firearms in general?

We had a family of builds directly shifted in the great condi nerf patch, what makes you certain they won't reverse it, or what makes you so sure of anything that means we should no longer talk about what should be

That's what I've been saying. Their efforts are not targeted at specific builds for specific game modes. They are erratic. That's why I have no illusions they look at condi engi and decide it's getting buffs for PVP.

They do, in fact, target specific builds and specific game modes.

From balance patch notes:

Spirit weapons have not felt solid due to having a few too many restrictions on their use, so the time between uses was reduced for all spirit weapons except the crowd-controlling hammer. Several firebrand skills were too powerful, which became very clear in PvP and WvW games, so defensive tomes received tweaks in those modes....Scourge shades have long been a pain point in PvP and WvW with their rapid corruption and few tells for players to spot. In this update, we're introducing better tells for shade actions, reducing the more oppressive condition applications, and easing up on the punishing boon corruptions. On the other side of things, we improved the effects of Vampiric Presence to make it competitive with the auras of other professions.

What's this? A specifically targeted pvp nerf and specifically targeted pvp buff

aimed at making an underperforming skills competitive with other professions

Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts. Impossible Odds, Phase Traversal, and the Focused Siphoning trait were changed to give the Shiro Tagachi invocation and the Devastation specialization more burst potential.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Condition-build engineers have been languishing behind their power-build counterparts...

These are just examples of EXACTLY what I've been saying .. they target skills that underperform, not specific builds. This is why Chaith's idea to buff kits ot make them more useful (hopefully in PVP in your case) is sensible but complaining that Anet should buff 'condi builds' does not. Builds do not get buffs, skills do. Chaith accused me of being pedantic in that difference, but it's not; making builds better is just chasing game changes, that's just a vicious cycle ... which makes no sense. Improving underperforming skills does make sense ... and that's how we see Anet working.

There is one really important point here ... Anet addressed those examples you post because they felt they needed to for the reasons they stated (they are good at this). Where is the need to make condi engi viable? I get the desire for it to happen, but I don't see the need. I honestly believe Anet could care less what condi engis are doing in PVP because if they did, they SURE do have a weird way of showing it and would have done about it; as your example show, Anet DOES act on things they feel they NEED to fix. Knowing the significance of the reasons Anet provide above, I'm really at a lose to think making condi engis viable has any sort of similar need to happen as these examples.

[coro.3176]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:... I don't even get why this isn't completely obvious to people almost 6 years into the game.

ArenaNet buffs and nerfs very erratically, how can you know they won't randomly select things for buffs like: incendiary powder/incendiary ammunition, bombs, firearms in general?

We had a family of builds directly shifted in the great condi nerf patch, what makes you certain they won't reverse it, or what makes you so sure of anything that means we should no longer talk about what should be

That's what I've been saying. Their efforts are not targeted at specific builds for specific game modes. They are erratic. That's why I have no illusions they look at condi engi and decide it's getting buffs for PVP.

They do, in fact, target specific builds and specific game modes.

From balance patch notes:

Spirit weapons have not felt solid due to having a few too many restrictions on their use, so the time between uses was reduced for all spirit weapons except the crowd-controlling hammer. Several firebrand skills were too powerful, which became very clear in PvP and WvW games, so defensive tomes received tweaks in those modes....Scourge shades have long been a pain point in PvP and WvW with their rapid corruption and few tells for players to spot. In this update, we're introducing better tells for shade actions, reducing the more oppressive condition applications, and easing up on the punishing boon corruptions. On the other side of things, we improved the effects of Vampiric Presence to make it competitive with the auras of other professions.

What's this? A specifically targeted pvp nerf and specifically targeted pvp buff

aimed at making an underperforming skills competitive with other professions

Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts. Impossible Odds, Phase Traversal, and the Focused Siphoning trait were changed to give the Shiro Tagachi invocation and the Devastation specialization more burst potential.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

Condition-build engineers have been languishing behind their power-build counterparts...

These are just examples of EXACTLY what I've been saying .. they target skills that underperform, not specific builds. This is why Chaith's idea to buff kits ot make them more useful (hopefully in PVP in your case) is sensible but complaining that Anet should buff 'condi builds' does not. Builds do not get buffs, skills do.Chaith accused me of being pedantic in that difference, but it's not; making builds better is just chasing game changes, that's just a vicious cycle ... which makes no sense. Improving underperforming skills does make sense ... and that's how we see Anet working.

I think you are being pedantic. Builds get buffed by buffing skills + traits, and Anet clearly does want to buff builds. Again:

Power-build revenants have been languishing behind their condition-build counterparts. Impossible Odds, Phase Traversal, and the Focused Siphoning trait were changed to give the Shiro Tagachi invocation and the Devastation specialization more burst potential.

That's a clear indication that they targeted the family of power-builds in general and tried to improve them (by improving traits/skills). I hope you don't misunderstand me here. I want condi engi to be better. By that, I mean I want the skills to work better and be more rewarding for the effort/risk they require.

There is one really important point here ... Anet addressed those examples you post because they felt they needed to for the reasons they stated (they are good at this). Where is the need to make condi engi viable? I get the desire for it to happen, but I don't see the need.I dunno. Where was the NEED to make power revenant better? Anet doesn't need to do anything. Obviously. They could never release another balance patch again if they wanted. but.. It's in their best interests in that a balanced game with varied builds is fresh and interesting compared to one where relatively few dominate. In that sense, they "need" to buff these underperforming builds/skills/traits/playstyles in order to keep the game from becoming stale.

They do eventually get around to these things, they're just really really really slow. Sometimes it takes 6 months. Sometimes it takes years. I'd prefer months to years... so, hence this thread. Sometimes they need a little reminder that builds still exist. I don't get why it bothers you so much.

[Chaith.8256]

@coro.3176 said:I think you are being pedantic. Builds get buffed by buffing skills + traits, and Anet clearly does want to buff builds.

100% this. If reasoning that a 'build' should be buffed doesn't make sense with balance patches (it obviously does makes sense), then just buff specific underperforming skills which in turn bring those builds up. Doing so will provide a loophole to @Obtena.7952 's obsession with phrasing