Why I hate the Deadeye

[Oxygen.5918]

I understand the idea of specialization; there's a difference between specializing and completely trashing the profession's core feel. This is what most people don't seem to grasp. Something like short bow may be ranged, but feels thiefy. Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

[Kichwas.7152]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Kichwas.7152 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

...highly mobile

: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

Final Fantasy XIV tried this same thing with it's previous 2015 expansion... it took the Bard - a super mobile class, the only always mobile class in it's game... and made it have to root in place to use abilities.

The Bard and Machinist became very unpopular, especially among the core demographic of 'Bard' players - super casuals. Like ranger here, it was the class "any noob can play well enough to do dungeons, and any 'decent' player can master to the same level as an expert player on any other class... But after they rooted it in place... those 'noob' players were basically getting eaten alive by level 1 hostile sheep...

I predict Deadeye will have a notable negative impact on Thief popularity. People who have played GW2 by using dodge to survive... can't play this class. And lets face it... Dodging to survive is actually the proper way to play GW2... So what are you left with? Stack toughness and Vitality and heal through the cleave of a boss... but do 2.8k DPS when the guy next to you is doing 28k...

A couple points, Bard and machinist wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. It's popularity stayed pretty good even with people complaining. I was there for most of it, so I doubt your claims that it will have a negative impact on the Thief community because of the mobility reasons. I think you are over exaggerating the dodge aspect because I can dodge just fine with it.

There is nothing wrong with platforming while some one else eats the damage to do Sniper damage since that is the point of the class. Stationery classes can make a place here I believe. If I learned to dodge stuff in FF14 on my BLM, I can learn to pull the Deadeye off. I doubt it will be that hard. Just need to adjust your mindset away from melee Thief.

The 'rooted in place' mechanic of Bard and Machinist were removed in the new expansion - and my reasons about about it's popularity drop come straight from SE's own developers commenting about why they removed it.

They used some very 'dance around it' ways to state that "the Bard was the most popular class among our lowest skilled playerbase"......and then stated that this segment of their playerbase suffered a significant issue continuing to play alongside others after the Heavensword change to the class - and that many dropped the class or even dropped their subscriptions.

[jaif.3518]

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

[Doctor Hide.6345]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Kichwas.7152 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:The wiki describes the thief as "Thieves are expert in the shadow arts. They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target. They're deadly in one-on-one combat using their agility, acrobatic fighting style, and the ability to steal to overcome their enemies."

...highly mobile

: The rifle might be the least mobile weapon in the game, mostly because it roots you in place. Yes, a skill that roots you in place on the most mobile profession in the game. You also lose Steal, just for good measure. Why?

Final Fantasy XIV tried this same thing with it's previous 2015 expansion... it took the Bard - a super mobile class, the only always mobile class in it's game... and made it have to root in place to use abilities.

The Bard and Machinist became very unpopular, especially among the core demographic of 'Bard' players - super casuals. Like ranger here, it was the class "any noob can play well enough to do dungeons, and any 'decent' player can master to the same level as an expert player on any other class... But after they rooted it in place... those 'noob' players were basically getting eaten alive by level 1 hostile sheep...

I predict Deadeye will have a notable negative impact on Thief popularity. People who have played GW2 by using dodge to survive... can't play this class. And lets face it... Dodging to survive is actually the proper way to play GW2... So what are you left with? Stack toughness and Vitality and heal through the cleave of a boss... but do 2.8k DPS when the guy next to you is doing 28k...

A couple points, Bard and machinist wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. It's popularity stayed pretty good even with people complaining. I was there for most of it, so I doubt your claims that it will have a negative impact on the Thief community because of the mobility reasons. I think you are over exaggerating the dodge aspect because I can dodge just fine with it.

There is nothing wrong with platforming while some one else eats the damage to do Sniper damage since that is the point of the class. Stationery classes can make a place here I believe. If I learned to dodge stuff in FF14 on my BLM, I can learn to pull the Deadeye off. I doubt it will be that hard. Just need to adjust your mindset away from melee Thief.

The 'rooted in place' mechanic of Bard and Machinist were removed in the new expansion - and my reasons about about it's popularity drop come straight from SE's own developers commenting about why they removed it.

I know about StormBlood and what they did(I am on hiatus until 4.1 hits). The Bard player base was super high, so loosing a few technically means the popularity dropped. The population of those jobs was still pretty high though enough to where I didn't see a difference. Like I said, I doubt that will happen to Thiefs. I will take that mobility hit like I took the hit for my BLM in order to perform melee level damage. I know the damage isn't there yet, but it will be. I don't think I am the only one that thinks this way either. It's the price you pay for ranged damage in this game to compete with melee. People have to get out of the mobile Thief mindset and play the Deadeye like actual long range Sniper.

[Saraneth.6021]

@jaif.3518 said:Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

That's it. End of story. Jeff and a bunch of people like it so we all have to.

[Kuulpb.5412]

You should be aware that, at least in my opinion, the wiki says the "Core" Thief style, Which is Stealth, Shadowsteps and burst damage. The elite specialisations change what the "base" is. so Daredevil is less about stealth and shadowsteps and more about evasion and strong close range hits, while the deadeye is more about stealth and positioning to "hit a headshot" as it were.

[jaif.3518]

@Saraneth.6021 said:

@jaif.3518 said:Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

That's it. End of story. Jeff and a bunch of people like it so we all have to.

I never said that. But it's certainly not as one-sided as the forum extremists make it out to be.

[Sartharina.3542]

If you want Twitchy and Highly Mobile, you still have Daredevil. But that's not all there is to thief, as Deadeye expertly demonstrates. If you don't like it (Bugs and balance issues aside), that's your problem, not the specialization's. Conceptually, and mostly in practice, Deadeye is an amazing addition to the thief identity.

I think the big problem is people have spent the past 2 years with Daredevil being treated as a straight upgrade to Thief, and conflating the identity so that Thief is Daredevil and Daredevil is Thief, which is NOT the case.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Zacchary.6183 said:So what you are telling me is the thief is a pure melee and is supposed to remain as a pure melee class, right?

I don't think that Deadeye needs to be pure melee, or even melee _oriented, but I do believe it should have competitive melee options. It should not just be one thing, it should not just be "the spec to use with Rifle," because the Rifle is a very limited weapon, it is not good enough to be the only thing Deadeyes can do. There need to be other options, at the very least through optional trait combinations that de-emphasize the Rifle. You should be able to make a Rifle-main DE, but also make a Rifle-back-up DE, or even a Rifel-less DE if you really want, and still see significant, Daredevil-competitive advantages to the spec.

Likewise, if you want to build into a support role, there should be tools to do so, but you should also be able to focus all that effort into soloing just as well.

How hard is it to understand what a sniper is all about? It's a sniper. It's a sniper. It's a sniper.

Because "Sniper" is a gameplay mode that isn't supported by GW2. Combat is too mobile and start and stops too fast. This isn't like a stealth-oriented game where it can make sense to spend a minute or more positioning yourself for the perfect takedown, this is a game where a character Mount-stomps an enemy spawn and beats them up in under two minutes, then moves on. It's one where if you attack the enemies from a position they can never reach (as a good Sniper might), the enemies reset and become impossible to kill. This is not a game for snipers, and while I like the idea of a DE in a sniper role, it needs to be a "sniper" as would fit into GW2's combat mechanics, and the DE is not that, not yet.

The problem is, the game already has a solid GW2 Sniper, and it's called a Berserker with a Rifle. All the Thief really needed is longer range on it. Really, come to think of it, that really is the solution to the whole "kneel" issue. Remove Kneel completely. Just have it so that the #5 skill is Death's Retreat, #4 is ALWAYS Death's Judgement (with a locked in root during the channel time like Kill Shot), and then balance out the other three abilities, which are already almost identical, to just be a balanced compromise between both current versions, wherever that would fall.

Problems solved, right?

@Manpag.6421 said:Being a less mobile profession can be beneficial in some situations, particularly jumping puzzles with enemies or certain mini-dungeons (taking a spec that relies on dodging like DD into something like Windy Cave is a death wish).

It can be annoying to play a DD in a tight environment, but it isn't horrible. So long as the enemy has no breakbar you can just chain Blind them and facetank. If they are immune to Blind, you can use Vault defensively, targeting a safe landing-space. It's not peak efficiency, but it's not the end of the world either.

[Weltenfeind.6794]

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

What's the other new Thief spec for Path of Fire? I thought it was only one per class!

[Weltenfeind.6794]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

What's the other new Thief spec for Path of Fire? I thought it was only one per class!

Just because a new class comes along in another game doesn't mean I play it. I might check it out and conclude it's not my cup of tea and then leave it. Which is exactly my point. I mean, you can just play Daredevil? What about the other professions who got support specs but have no intention of playing support?

[Saraneth.6021]

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

What's the other new Thief spec for Path of Fire? I thought it was only one per class!

Just because a new class comes along in another game doesn't mean I play it. I might check it out and conclude it's not my cup of tea and then leave it. Which is exactly my point. I mean, you can just play Daredevil? What about the other professions who got support specs but have no intention of playing support?

But we didn't get a support spec. We got a DPS spec that was supposed to be on par with melee... D.P.S!

[Ohoni.6057]

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

What's the other new Thief spec for Path of Fire? I thought it was only one per class!

Just because a new class comes along in another game doesn't mean I play it. I might check it out and conclude it's not my cup of tea and then leave it. Which is exactly my point. I mean, you can just play Daredevil? What about the other professions who got support specs but have no intention of playing support?

New expansions only happen every two years or so. EVERY spec should be for EVERY player of EVERY game mode and EVERY play style.

Variation should not be from spec to spec, it should be in how you build out each spec. Every spec should have a mode that is the best PvP build possible, every spec should have a mode that is the best WvW spec possible. Every spec should have a mode that is the best solo PvE roamer possible, the best Raid contributor possible, etc. Players should choose specs based on how they want to play, but all modes should be functional and evenly balanced. There should be no point at which "that spec just isn't meant to be used in that role, wait another two years to have something new and interesting to play."

No class should get "a support spec," they should, worst case scenario, a class that is great at support if you slot certain traits and gear for that role, OR is very strong solo by turning most of that support inwards, if you build in that direction. Swapping a few traits and maybe a few pieces of gear would make the difference between a raid supporter and a soloer, but they would play largely the same (aside from wanting to position just so when running team support).

That's the fatal flaw with the PoF specs, they all tend to be way too niche and narrow focused, and therefore only fun and useful to a very small number of players.

Specific to the Deadeye, the "carefully set up turret sniper" just doesn't seem to have a place in the game. It's not mobile enough to deal with a highly mobile type of gameplay. It basically can't do anything that any other class or Thief spec can do faster. If it is going to be a stationary turret, then it needs to kill things MUST faster and burstier than it does. If it's just going to be a Rifle Berserker, then it needs to be at least as mobile as a Rifle Berserker.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Saraneth.6021 said:

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Weltenfeind.6794 said:

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Also, what's the problem? People don't HAVE to play Deadeye if they don't want to, do they? Just don't pick the spec.

What's the other new Thief spec for Path of Fire? I thought it was only one per class!

Just because a new class comes along in another game doesn't mean I play it. I might check it out and conclude it's not my cup of tea and then leave it. Which is exactly my point. I mean, you can just play Daredevil? What about the other professions who got support specs but have no intention of playing support?

But we didn't get a support spec. We got a DPS spec that was supposed to be on par with melee... D.P.S!

Deadeye was supposed to be a DPS spec but they gave us support options as well with Peripheral Vision and Fire for Effect, our first 100 might trait (200 if you trait improv).

[Pimpology.6234]

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:I never went with the wiki on what a Thief is. To me, they were just the rogue like characters of GW2. With them being rogue like, it lends themselves to many different play-styles and options with one of them being Spec Ops Sniper. That's all a rogue is in any game that has them, they are always shadowed focused, and they are always very behind the scenes fighters like Special Operations.

Too bad you're not really behind the scenes with poop-d-poop only 1200 range. its not very far at all. take that orb thing you have and toss it to see max range. Pretty short.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

So babsically Deadeye is a PvP spec like most the PoF elites I've noticed. You can PvE with them but i've noticed many more using PoF elites in PvP/WvW then PvE.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Pimpology.6234 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:I never went with the wiki on what a Thief is. To me, they were just the rogue like characters of GW2. With them being rogue like, it lends themselves to many different play-styles and options with one of them being Spec Ops Sniper. That's all a rogue is in any game that has them, they are always shadowed focused, and they are always very behind the scenes fighters like Special Operations.

Too bad you're not really behind the scenes with poop-d-poop only 1200 range. its not very far at all. take that orb thing you have and toss it to see max range. Pretty short.

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:You don't have to play deadeye, but you should at least understand WHY deadeye was made.

Unlike Daredevil, it is SUPPOSED to be a completely different style of play, and it requires more thought in your actions than it did with Core Thief or Daredevil. I've not had a problem with any of the aforementioned complaints you've had in PvP outside of how clunky the spec currently is.

Sorry, how does the Deadeye require any thought to play? To kneel or not to kneel, is that the question, Leo Shakespeare?

Because if you just jump into a fight with the rifle, you are almost guaranteed to die. You have to find an enemy that is already engaged with others so you can pick them off. Then you have to find a nice elevated spot so when you are drawing attention your enemy can't charge at you directly. Then you have to figure out who has to die first if there happens to be multiple targets. You also have to be ready to switch targets if one starts charging you. Finally, you have to know how, when and where to bail if someone does reach you, because again if you engage up close you will probably die. There is just way more planning involved in playing Deadeye than core or Daredevil thief.

So babsically Deadeye is a PvP spec like most the PoF elites I've noticed. You can PvE with them but i've noticed many more using PoF elites in PvP/WvW then PvE.

I would say it is, since support isn't really important in pve except for raids. However, that doesn't mean they can't be used in pve. PvE is pretty easy.

[Selendile.9106]

Frankly, I just want Mark to be unblockable and have it’s LoS issues fixed. I feel like I’ve attempted marking unsuccessfully CONTANTLY.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Zacchary.6183 said:I would say it is, since support isn't really important in pve except for raids. However, that doesn't mean they can't be used in pve. PvE is pretty easy.

This argument should NEVER be made. Ever.

If in future you ever consider saying anything along the lines of :"PvE balance doesn't matter because basically anything is good enough," then just say nothing at all.

[Zacchary.6183]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:I would say it is, since support isn't really important in pve except for raids. However, that doesn't mean they can't be used in pve. PvE is pretty easy.

This argument should NEVER be made. Ever.

If in future you ever consider saying anything along the lines of :"PvE balance doesn't matter because basically anything is good enough," then just say nothing at all.

Explain.

[anonthefelon.8951]

Free action should not be effected by any kind of cool down, ever. No matter what I do, or what my opponent does. Free Action should always be available if you're going to force me to kneel for effective DPS.

Further, give me a settings option where if I press a movement key, I get up. It's utter bull that my instinctive skills to move are overridden by this. Perhaps a toggle so dodge stands me up, literally anything.

I feel like I die more to being unable to un-root myself than anything else. If you're going to force me to stand still, at least let me get up when I need to.

[Jinks.2057]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:I would say it is, since support isn't really important in pve except for raids. However, that doesn't mean they can't be used in pve. PvE is pretty easy.

This argument should NEVER be made. Ever.

If in future you ever consider saying anything along the lines of :"PvE balance doesn't matter because basically anything is good enough," then just say nothing at all.

Actually that's a valid argument.

PvE matters nothing in terms of balance. The only thing that needs to be changed is if something is game breaking and can be exploited to destroy PvE. Otherwise you can balance PvE by changing the mobs. You can make a raid boss not do a specific thing to make builds viable, or you can make it do something to negate builds nonviable.

At the end of the day PvE requires very little skill. The only balance that should matter (absent a game breaking thing like solo condi thief kiling raid boss, etc) is PvP. All PvE balance should be balanced according to WvW.

I'm not trying to be mean just state the truth, and if you disagree with my statements just ask yourself this simple question:

How many soccer moms play PvE vs PvP?

Have a great day fellas

[Ohoni.6057]

@Zacchary.6183 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Zacchary.6183 said:I would say it is, since support isn't really important in pve except for raids. However, that doesn't mean they can't be used in pve. PvE is pretty easy.

This argument should NEVER be made. Ever.

If in future you ever consider saying anything along the lines of :"PvE balance doesn't matter because basically anything is good enough," then just say nothing at all.

Explain.

Because it just isn't true. You can argue that a player can still overcome a PvE obstacle with a kitteny build, but players still want to have the best builds possible, the ones that will allow them to clear the content in the fastest time possible, with the lowest chance of dying. PvE players have no less right to demand access to the best possible PvE builds than PvP players have to demand access to the builds most likely to allow them to defeat their opponents. PvE balance is JUSt as important as PvP balance, moreso really, given how many more players play PvE than play PvP, and I'm tired of hearing people say "oh, the PvE balance doesn't matter, anything works fine." That's such insane elitist nonsense.

[Oxygen.5918]

@jaif.3518 said:

@Oxygen.5918 said:Rifle doesn't feel thiefy at all.

To you. Using a made up definition.

Seriously, I'm not a lawyer and not going to debate like one. Deadeye is a lot of fun in-game, I find myself really relying on stealth, and I'm starting to get decent at picking targets. I feel like a thief, just not a melee one.

Sorry you hate it, but a bunch of us in-game seem to like it.

-Jeff

Everything is made up. Why don't you offer your own definition of what the thief is supposed to play like? Show some creativity for once in your life instead of consuming anet's scraps.

Why don't you play a ranger if you like that slow, long-range "playstyle" anyway?

@Sartharina.3542 said:If you want Twitchy and Highly Mobile, you still have Daredevil. But that's not all there is to thief, as Deadeye expertly demonstrates. If you don't like it (Bugs and balance issues aside), that's your problem, not the specialization's. Conceptually, and mostly in practice, Deadeye is an amazing addition to the thief identity.

I think the big problem is people have spent the past 2 years with Daredevil being treated as a straight upgrade to Thief, and conflating the identity so that Thief is Daredevil and Daredevil is Thief, which is NOT the case.

Deadeye expertly demonstrates anet's design incompetence. If I don't like the rifle, it's definitely the rifle's problem, because it's an uninteresting 180˚ shift of the profession's playstyle, i.e. a ranger with a longbow that can't move. Ew.

Daredevil wasn't all that great either, but at least made sense.

[jaif.3518]

The more I play deadeye, the more I like it. I've tried rifle with a focus on stealth, and another with tricks, and both are interesting though stealth was too slow for my tastes.

Pistol/pistol works great. Not sure why that's being ignored here.

Sword/dagger worked well for me in WvW.

I saw a shortbow build using the support traits on metabattle. That looked promising, but I didn't try it.

I know there's a focus on PvE here, but the traited mark can be a 1500 range interrupt, damage dealer, and soft-heal that applies poison. It's really useful in WvW.