why is condi burst still a thing

[babazhook.6805]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Experience.

You claimed one skill applied 35k poison and 23k bleed. Clearly it did not.

NOooooooo! Where did say that 1 skill did Poison & bleeds? Plz QUOTE ME!

No but you imply one skill did 35k work of poison damage. Also don't think you are using the term one shot correctly.

High damage from 1 skill activated (1shot) condi or power builds does exist in every class. & i'm talking about 15k-20k-30k & up.

And judging from the death breakdown one of 2 thing happened. You were either alive and fighting for a VERY long time or you took damage while you were downed.I may be wrong but I don't think the death breakdown counts damage from sources when you are downed.

With at least one or both of these being the case its hard to believe you got one-shot.

Exactly! So if i did imply 1 skill did all that poison damage. Not the bleeding. So why are you twisting my words if you understood that?I can't be clearer. Thief did one manoeuver where it stack up all them poisons. I tried to clear it up but other condition was cleared instead. Poison stayed & i died from it. bleeds was from another skill.

The point still stands since there is no 1 skill, no 1 attack, that will do that much poison damage like you claim. Everyone is correct here. You are wrong. You're exaggerating, poorly, to attempt to prove point.

You should admit you got hit by a chain of attacks and maybe then it would be more believable. Why? Because that would be the truth. But you wouldn't since it doesn't push you agenda.

It's possible i got hit by a combination of skill's in 1.5 sec. Any good players does that. But a chain, hit after hit after hit, , no. I assure you it was not a chain. Thief pop in, hit me & pop out. Din't even had time to retaliate. He just waited & i died.

The PIC you showed was 35k total damage. This was NOT from a single attack. It was the amount of damage taken by poison up until the time you died. If as example you had healed in this period and more poison applied this number would be higher.

You will NOTE that the total number refers to 134 hits. The hits are the seperate strikes of damage that hit you. If you divide the 35 odd k damage by 134 you will see each hit did about 260 damage as per my calculations. You claimed this happened in around 7 seconds. This means you had to have had on 19 stacks of poison at all times. Again there no SINGLE attack or single skill use that can add 19 stacks of poison. What likely happened was Venom load of spiders followed by STEAL for 3. Mercy Reset or he managed to proc an evade with sword and had swindlers. Steal for three again. with s2 for 3 , port attack once or twice more, port out port in again for 3. This is NOT 19 stacks in a single skill use or single attack. It multiple attacks and different skills used.

[Vieux P.1238]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@saerni.2584 said:Experience.

You claimed one skill applied 35k poison and 23k bleed. Clearly it did not.

NOooooooo! Where did say that 1 skill did Poison & bleeds? Plz QUOTE ME!

No but you imply one skill did 35k work of poison damage. Also don't think you are using the term one shot correctly.

High damage from 1 skill activated (1shot) condi or power builds does exist in every class. & i'm talking about 15k-20k-30k & up.

And judging from the death breakdown one of 2 thing happened. You were either alive and fighting for a VERY long time or you took damage while you were downed.I may be wrong but I don't think the death breakdown counts damage from sources when you are downed.

With at least one or both of these being the case its hard to believe you got one-shot.

Exactly! So if i did imply 1 skill did all that poison damage. Not the bleeding. So why are you twisting my words if you understood that?I can't be clearer. Thief did one manoeuver where it stack up all them poisons. I tried to clear it up but other condition was cleared instead. Poison stayed & i died from it. bleeds was from another skill.

The point still stands since there is no 1 skill, no 1 attack, that will do that much poison damage like you claim. Everyone is correct here. You are wrong. You're exaggerating, poorly, to attempt to prove point.

You should admit you got hit by a chain of attacks and maybe then it would be more believable. Why? Because that would be the truth. But you wouldn't since it doesn't push you agenda.

It's possible i got hit by a combination of skill's in 1.5 sec. Any good players does that. But a chain, hit after hit after hit, , no. I assure you it was not a chain. Thief pop in, hit me & pop out. Din't even had time to retaliate. He just waited & i died.

The PIC you showed was 35k total damage. This was NOT from a single attack. It was the amount of damage taken by poison up until the time you died. If as example you had healed in this period and more poison applied this number would be higher.

You will NOTE that the total number refers to 134 hits. The hits are the seperate strikes of damage that hit you. If you divide the 35 odd k damage by 134 you will see each hit did about 260 damage as per my calculations. You claimed this happened in around 7 seconds. This means you had to have had on 19 stacks of poison at all times. Again there no SINGLE attack or single skill use that can add 19 stacks of poison. What likely happened was Venom load of spiders followed by STEAL for 3. Mercy Reset or he managed to proc an evade with sword and had swindlers. Steal for three again. with s2 for 3 , port attack once or twice more, port out port in again for 3. This is NOT 19 stacks in a single skill use or single attack. It multiple attacks and different skills used.

What the pic show's is that condi's accrosse the board is broken. To come back to what OP's was saying about warriors dishing 60k condis. I was merly adding that Warriors is not the only guilty party. All classes, referencing to thief for my example are broken as well. Some of you took it personally & decided to on a denial quest. No matter how you put it, my numbers states the fact that Condi in general is overtune. I'm not singling out anyone class.

[babazhook.6805]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@"saerni.2584" said:Experience.

You claimed one skill applied 35k poison and 23k bleed. Clearly it did not.

NOooooooo! Where did say that 1 skill did Poison & bleeds? Plz QUOTE ME!

No but you imply one skill did 35k work of poison damage. Also don't think you are using the term one shot correctly.

High damage from 1 skill activated (1shot) condi or power builds does exist in every class. & i'm talking about 15k-20k-30k & up.

And judging from the death breakdown one of 2 thing happened. You were either alive and fighting for a VERY long time or you took damage while you were downed.I may be wrong but I don't think the death breakdown counts damage from sources when you are downed.

With at least one or both of these being the case its hard to believe you got one-shot.

Exactly! So if i did imply 1 skill did all that poison damage. Not the bleeding. So why are you twisting my words if you understood that?I can't be clearer. Thief did one manoeuver where it stack up all them poisons. I tried to clear it up but other condition was cleared instead. Poison stayed & i died from it. bleeds was from another skill.

The point still stands since there is no 1 skill, no 1 attack, that will do that much poison damage like you claim. Everyone is correct here. You are wrong. You're exaggerating, poorly, to attempt to prove point.

You should admit you got hit by a chain of attacks and maybe then it would be more believable. Why? Because that would be the truth. But you wouldn't since it doesn't push you agenda.

It's possible i got hit by a combination of skill's in 1.5 sec. Any good players does that. But a chain, hit after hit after hit, , no. I assure you it was not a chain. Thief pop in, hit me & pop out. Din't even had time to retaliate. He just waited & i died.

The PIC you showed was 35k total damage. This was NOT from a single attack. It was the amount of damage taken by poison up until the time you died. If as example you had healed in this period and more poison applied this number would be higher.

You will NOTE that the total number refers to 134 hits. The hits are the seperate strikes of damage that hit you. If you divide the 35 odd k damage by 134 you will see each hit did about 260 damage as per my calculations. You claimed this happened in around 7 seconds. This means you had to have had on 19 stacks of poison at all times. Again there no SINGLE attack or single skill use that can add 19 stacks of poison. What likely happened was Venom load of spiders followed by STEAL for 3. Mercy Reset or he managed to proc an evade with sword and had swindlers. Steal for three again. with s2 for 3 , port attack once or twice more, port out port in again for 3. This is NOT 19 stacks in a single skill use or single attack. It multiple attacks and different skills used.

What the pic show's is that condi's accrosse the board is broken. To come back to what OP's was saying about warriors dishing 60k condis. I was merly adding that Warriors is not the only guilty party. All classes, referencing to thief for my example are broken as well. Some of you took it personally & decided to on a denial quest. No matter how you put it, my numbers states the fact that Condi in general is overtune. I'm not singling out anyone class.

The picture does not show "conditions are borken across the board" It shows the total damage taken from conditions prior to your death.This number must always be higher then ones total health + healing + mitigation or people would never die. The Average health of a person is likely 20k in Pvp. If your PIC shows you taking 70k in conditions prior to dying then it suggests to me you healed recovered from etc 50 k of condition damage. If THAT in fact how that "death breakdown chart" works then it next to useless when determining whether a given skill OP because the number would be higher at fights end based on how much heals the target performed.

[Airdive.2613]

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

Except condis can deal damage to you even through dodging, they may not get applied in the initial evade frame of the dodge but dodging does not negate the damage of conditions already applied to you. So not only would you need to use a utility cooldown for a condi clear or for resistance application to avoid the damage, but to avoid the application of a condition you would also be using up your dodge. When it comes to power builds one usually need only dodge to avoid the burst from a skill that then usually goes onto cooldown. There are very specific skills for power builds that can burst people down very quickly and usually one needs to time when to use these skills (I'll get into Deadeye in a minute) so as not to either hit a block, hit an invuln, or have it evaded by a dodge or a skill with an evade. Blocks do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you, no damage effects (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone) do not stop damage from conditions applied to you, evades/dodges do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you.

I find it absolutely hilarious how you're still pretending you can't see the obvious.

1. There is no reason to choose "5k damage per second for 4 seconds with a chance of not doing damage at all" over "20k instant damage" if the former doesn't offer some additional benefits. The benefit here is condition damage ignores armor, forcing active gameplay (instead of stacking toughness) and levelling out professions' different health pools and armor ratings.
2. You should not be able to dodge through condition damage: you got hit initially (which you totally could and should have prevented), you already have it easier (as you have time to react as opposed to receiving instant damage), you already have cleanse as your "condi dodge" analogue.

[will de grijze jager.6594]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

Except condis can deal damage to you even through dodging, they may not get applied in the initial evade frame of the dodge but dodging does not negate the damage of conditions already applied to you. So not only would you need to use a utility cooldown for a condi clear or for resistance application to avoid the damage, but to avoid the application of a condition you would also be using up your dodge. When it comes to power builds one usually need only dodge to avoid the burst from a skill that then usually goes onto cooldown. There are very specific skills for power builds that can burst people down very quickly and usually one needs to time when to use these skills (I'll get into Deadeye in a minute) so as not to either hit a block, hit an invuln, or have it evaded by a dodge or a skill with an evade. Blocks do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you, no damage effects (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone) do not stop damage from conditions applied to you, evades/dodges do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you.

I find it absolutely hilarious how you're still pretending you can't see the obvious.

1. There is no reason to choose "5k damage per second for 4 seconds with a chance of not doing damage at all" over "20k instant damage" if the former doesn't offer some additional benefits. The benefit here is condition damage ignores armor, forcing active gameplay (instead of stacking toughness) and levelling out professions' different health pools and armor ratings.
2. You should not be able to dodge through condition damage: you got hit initially (which you totally could and should have prevented), you already have it easier (as you have time to react as opposed to receiving instant damage), you already have cleanse as your "condi dodge" analogue.

mate your second point is the same thing for the 20 k instant you could have dodge it to. it is never instand 20 k it is like 4 skills and the chance you dodge 2 of them is big.

[Airdive.2613]

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:

@Airdive.2613 said:

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:

Except condis can deal damage to you even through dodging, they may not get applied in the initial evade frame of the dodge but dodging does not negate the damage of conditions already applied to you. So not only would you need to use a utility cooldown for a condi clear or for resistance application to avoid the damage, but to avoid the application of a condition you would also be using up your dodge. When it comes to power builds one usually need only dodge to avoid the burst from a skill that then usually goes onto cooldown. There are very specific skills for power builds that can burst people down very quickly and usually one needs to time when to use these skills (I'll get into Deadeye in a minute) so as not to either hit a block, hit an invuln, or have it evaded by a dodge or a skill with an evade. Blocks do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you, no damage effects (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone) do not stop damage from conditions applied to you, evades/dodges do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you.

I find it absolutely hilarious how you're still pretending you can't see the obvious.

1. There is no reason to choose "5k damage per second for 4 seconds with a chance of not doing damage at all" over "20k instant damage" if the former doesn't offer some additional benefits. The benefit here is condition damage ignores armor, forcing active gameplay (instead of stacking toughness) and levelling out professions' different health pools and armor ratings.
2. You should not be able to dodge through condition damage: you got hit initially (which you totally could and should have prevented), you already have it easier (as you have time to react as opposed to receiving instant damage), you already have cleanse as your "condi dodge" analogue.

mate your second point is the same thing for the 20 k instant you could have dodge it to. it is never instand 20 k it is like 4 skills and the chance you dodge 2 of them is big.

Well yeah, just as condition burst uses multiple skills to be effective. That's why GW2's combat is skill based (pun not intended).

[Eme.2018]

@"Airdive.2613" said:

1. There is no reason to choose "5k damage per second for 4 seconds with a chance of not doing damage at all" over "20k instant damage" if the former doesn't offer some additional benefits. The benefit here is condition damage ignores armor, forcing active gameplay (instead of stacking toughness) and levelling out professions' different health pools and armor ratings.

The main argument against condi burst is that it consists of several different attacks thus, dodging or blocking one of those attacks does little to no good, whereas the power burst, usually consists of a rapid chain of attacks that, most of the times, can be negated with only one, well-timed dodge.

[Airdive.2613]

@Eme.2018 said:

@"Airdive.2613" said:

1. There is no reason to choose "5k damage per second for 4 seconds with a chance of not doing damage at all" over "20k instant damage" if the former doesn't offer some additional benefits. The benefit here is condition damage ignores armor, forcing active gameplay (instead of stacking toughness) and levelling out professions' different health pools and armor ratings.

The main argument against condi burst is that it consists of several different attacks thus, dodging or blocking one of those attacks does little to no good, whereas the power burst, usually consists of a rapid chain of attacks that, most of the times, can be negated with only one, well-timed dodge.

Wouldn't it be better to refer to it as the sustained condition damage, then?Still, I don't think sustained condition damage is "wrong" wrong because it's on par with what power warriors, guardians, rangers and holosmiths are capable of.

(edited for holosmiths)

[Eme.2018]

@"Airdive.2613" said:Wouldn't it be better to refer to it as the sustained condition damage, then?Still, I don't think sustained condition damage is "wrong" wrong because it's on par with what power warriors, guardians, rangers and holosmiths are capable of.

(edited for holosmiths)

Well, it is sustain till the conditions stack. After that, it really depends on you choice of words. Stacked up conditions, can sustain a burst, would you call that sustain damage though?

To be fair, there are many ways to avoid getting stacked up by conditions. I don't believe the general condition damage implication is the main problem here. I would rather talk about specific numbers, skills, traits or synergies.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"Airdive.2613" I have no issues with sustained damage, my primary issue with conditions and their state is that its far less "sustained" damage and it usually ends up just bursting your health down through multiple ticks as if you were hit by a Power build multiple times but you can't dodge it once its on you and once your condition cleanses are on cooldown from the first time you had to wipe out all those stacks then you're mostly just dead. It can be avoidable at times but the fights turn into such egregiously uphill encounters that it just turns into a not fun experience. I've said it before, I'll go and fight Scourges, condi Mesmers, condi thieves all day in WvW. I'll even beat some, or most, in 1v1s or in other smaller scale encounters but the fights are just not in the slightest bit fun because I have to most of the time block during the engage, dodge roll during the engage or use up one of my cooldowns to apply resistance to myself during the engage. Or all of that depending on how hard the other player is going. Scourges have short enough cooldowns on their conditions, and enough abilities available to them, that they can typically keep one zoned out of melee range with them for a large portion of even a 1v1 with them. Mesmers have so many options to apply torment now, and large stacks of it, with very little downtime that even if you avoid it once they will just do it again and again and again with very minimal effort put forth.

The biggest culprit as well, in the case of sPvP, is that one of the main ways to deal with conditions from Scourge or Mesmer is to disengage, get some distance so that they can't shatter their clones on top of you all at once or have you stand inside Scourge AoE as conditions just stack and stack then you dive back into the fight to put them on their heels. So yes its possible to beat these setups, but the issue in sPvP, Conquest, is that the capture points are abysmally small in relation to how large of an area of effect both Scourges have and Mesmers have with their condition application. So if you're not fighting on top of the capture point you are not contesting it, if you are not contesting it you are giving the enemy the capture or not flipping it neutral to deny them points or holding it for your team to keep getting points.

The mere presence of a Scourge on top of a capture point immediately forces you off point unless you want to die and they can continue to do that almost indefinitely due to how much condi AoE they have. Mesmer is just about the same way with the number of clones they can bring out onto the field since their rework and how constantly they can keep them flowing. If these were power setups you could stay on point, avoid targeted burst with well timed dodge rolls or timing of other skills and still contest or hold the point for your team.

[Airdive.2613]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@"Airdive.2613" I have no issues with sustained damage, my primary issue with conditions and their state is that its far less "sustained" damage and it usually ends up just bursting your health down through multiple ticks as if you were hit by a Power build multiple times but you can't dodge it once its on you and once your condition cleanses are on cooldown from the first time you had to wipe out all those stacks then you're mostly just dead. It can be avoidable at times but the fights turn into such egregiously uphill encounters that it just turns into a not fun experience. I've said it before, I'll go and fight Scourges, condi Mesmers, condi thieves all day in WvW. I'll even beat some, or most, in 1v1s or in other smaller scale encounters but the fights are just not in the slightest bit fun because I have to most of the time block during the engage, dodge roll during the engage or use up one of my cooldowns to apply resistance to myself during the engage. Or all of that depending on how hard the other player is going. Scourges have short enough cooldowns on their conditions, and enough abilities available to them, that they can typically keep one zoned out of melee range with them for a large portion of even a 1v1 with them. Mesmers have so many options to apply torment now, and large stacks of it, with very little downtime that even if you avoid it once they will just do it again and again and again with very minimal effort put forth.

The biggest culprit as well, in the case of sPvP, is that one of the main ways to deal with conditions from Scourge or Mesmer is to disengage, get some distance so that they can't shatter their clones on top of you all at once or have you stand inside Scourge AoE as conditions just stack and stack then you dive back into the fight to put them on their heels. So yes its possible to beat these setups, but the issue in sPvP, Conquest, is that the capture points are abysmally small in relation to how large of an area of effect both Scourges have and Mesmers have with their condition application. So if you're not fighting on top of the capture point you are not contesting it, if you are not contesting it you are giving the enemy the capture or not flipping it neutral to deny them points or holding it for your team to keep getting points.

The mere presence of a Scourge on top of a capture point immediately forces you off point unless you want to die and they can continue to do that almost indefinitely due to how much condi AoE they have. Mesmer is just about the same way with the number of clones they can bring out onto the field since their rework and how constantly they can keep them flowing. If these were power setups you could stay on point, avoid targeted burst with well timed dodge rolls or timing of other skills and still contest or hold the point for your team.

While you are right for the most part, I can't understand why you would think power damage is any different.It's not like you would stay on point while there's reaper shroud 4 or dragonhunter's traps or meteor shower approaching your face anyway. It's not like power ranger or guardian are incapable of two-shotting you.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Airdive.2613 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Airdive.2613 I have no issues with sustained damage, my primary issue with conditions and their state is that its far less "sustained" damage and it usually ends up just bursting your health down through multiple ticks as if you were hit by a Power build multiple times but you can't dodge it once its on you and once your condition cleanses are on cooldown from the

first

time you had to wipe out all those stacks then you're mostly just dead. It can be avoidable at times but the fights turn into such egregiously uphill encounters that it just turns into a not fun experience. I've said it before, I'll go and fight Scourges, condi Mesmers, condi thieves all day in WvW. I'll even beat some, or most, in 1v1s or in other smaller scale encounters but the fights are just

not

in the slightest bit fun because I have to most of the time block during the engage, dodge roll during the engage or use up one of my cooldowns to apply resistance to myself during the engage. Or all of that depending on how hard the other player is going. Scourges have short enough cooldowns on their conditions, and enough abilities available to them, that they can typically keep one zoned out of melee range with them for a large portion of even a 1v1 with them. Mesmers have so many options to apply torment now, and large stacks of it, with very little downtime that even if you avoid it once they will just do it again and again and again with very minimal effort put forth.

The biggest culprit as well, in the case of sPvP, is that

one of

the main ways to deal with conditions from Scourge or Mesmer is to disengage, get some distance so that they can't shatter their clones on top of you all at once or have you stand inside Scourge AoE as conditions just stack and stack then you dive back into the fight to put them on their heels. So yes its possible to beat these setups, but the issue in sPvP, Conquest, is that the capture points are abysmally small in relation to how large of an area of effect both Scourges have and Mesmers have with their condition application. So if you're not fighting on top of the capture point you are not contesting it, if you are not contesting it you are giving the enemy the capture or not flipping it neutral to deny them points or holding it for your team to keep getting points.

The mere presence of a Scourge on top of a capture point immediately forces you off point unless you want to die and they can continue to do that almost indefinitely due to how much condi AoE they have. Mesmer is just about the same way with the number of clones they can bring out onto the field since their rework and how constantly they can keep them flowing. If these were power setups you could stay on point, avoid targeted burst with well timed dodge rolls or timing of other skills and still contest or hold the point for your team.

While you are right for the most part, I can't understand why you would think power damage is any different.It's not like you would stay on point while there's reaper shroud 4 or dragonhunter's traps or meteor shower approaching your face anyway. It's not like power ranger or guardian are incapable of two-shotting you.

You're right, they are entirely capable of 2 shotting you. Thats the purpose of burst and it being able to do that when you set it up properly. However this burst is more easily avoidable with the available defenses most competitive builds have and this burst doesn't cover the entire capture point for 30+ seconds and is typically limited to either one individual player or a smaller location.

As an example, as a Warrior I could use Bull's Charge to CC and proc Peak Performance, swap from Greatsword to Axe to proc Sigil of Intelligence and then use a 3 bar Eviscerate and maybe with an adequate amount of might already having been stacked, plus Vulnerability having been applied previously, and I'd be able to get a 10k+ crit (which I've done) but that tends to be rare and also requires more specific timing to accomplish. Several variables have to be present in the fight at the right time for that to occur.

1) Bull's Charge would have to hit and not be dodge rolled/blocked/immuned/evaded/invuln'd2) I would have to not be CC'd while Peak Performance is active (5 second duration) which either means a Last Stand Proc which has a 90 sec internal CD or I would need to block and then use Eviscerate. Alternatively I could use Endure Pain to break the CC as well.3) I would have to actually hit with Eviscerate, which it can be dodge rolled, blocked, invuln'd and evadedHaving any one of those defenses available can completely nullify the burst from Power damage especially if timed at the cast of the Eviscerate.

On less experienced players I typically don't have too much difficulty doing this but that is primarily because they have not yet learned to read animations, run competitive builds or understand classes to the extent that more experienced players do. The frequency in which I hit that combo on more experienced players is rare compared to if I'm fighting someone who is ranked even all the way up to Gold. The skill difference between even Plat and Gold is honestly rather astonishing sometimes but I attribute that to how they made it pretty significantly easier to just place into Gold in Ranked. Most people legitimately don't know how to dodge properly and they just use it whenever its available or spam it outright which can be easily countered. I've gone up against rangers that will dodge roll an Axe throw when they are at full health, and then dodge roll the basic attack and then that just usually leaves them wide open for me to land a CC to provoke a stunbreak usage or force them into popping Signet of Stone and then I just wait it out.

[Vieux P.1238]

Still on the subject over the 10k + & 1 shot wonders.This is me 2 days ago .... Nice 1 shot whome ever was that dude https://ibb.co/dJ5VFJ

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@Vieux P.1238 The last time I got 1 shot by a Ranger was probably well over a year ago now, prior to when I took it upon myself to improve in PvP.

[Vieux P.1238]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:@Vieux P.1238 The last time I got 1 shot by a Ranger was probably well over a year ago now, prior to when I took it upon myself to improve in PvP.

Usually you see it coming.. But a good ranger or soulbeast player will have you use up all your dodges & defensive & then just drop on you hard with that 1 shot. I was full health when he did & he had quickness so it came in so fast that i din't even had time to react. But my point is 1 HIT 1 button.. POW! 23k rounded up. That's balance. f :dizzy:

[babazhook.6805]

@"Vieux P.1238" said:Still on the subject over the 10k + & 1 shot wonders.This is me 2 days ago .... Nice 1 shot whome ever was that dude https://ibb.co/dJ5VFJ

You probably are not even aware of it but your two different PICS of the death breakdown chart contradict what many of those people (Including yourself) are saying when they claim Conditions are overpowered.

You will note that in the Condition death breakdown POISON hit for 36000 some odd damage on 134 hits. The total conditiondamage done to you was some 70k overall.

On the second one a SINGLE hit from a power attack did 22000 damage. Total damage overall before you died was some 28k damage.

This does not show that Conditions OP compared to Power. It shows the exact opposite. In the condition death you obviously lived longer, healed more often and were able to recover from some 50k in damage before you died. In the condition damage build the poison itself required 134 hits to get to 36k. Now I understand that some atacks will apply more then one stack pison and that each subsequent TICK based on condition duration now considered a HIT , the Condition build still needs more separate attacks to get that damage.

The second power damage breakdown showed how much more effective power damage is and demonstrates that people fall faster to a Power attack. Given the power attack all happens at once damage wise rather then being applied over a period of time , you have LESS time to recover and thus die before you can get that next heal off.

IF the two builds you used are the same builds it shows the Condition build needed to apply three times the total damage in order to obtain the same result. It does not show that Condition builds output three times more damage.

[UfoCoffee.2084]

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@UfoCoffee.2084 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@DragonFury.6243 said:

@will de grijze jager.6594 said:thief and mesmer still can condi burst in 1 second kitten why.because the devz saw no one plays teef and mes !!! so they gave them the condi burst and rest professions GTH no one care !!!

No, it was there before & still is. It was 2 patches ago they removed Defensive auto passives on certain classes. In my book, the devs have not done anoth & should remove all passives that procs automatically.

should this include auras, damage fields, and condition ticks?

Not the same as passives that proc's when your under attack or under a certain amount of health. I have no problem with anything that use's a players ability to click on a skill to activate it. But other wise it makes for lazy playing that makes players think there pros. haha!

Oh come off it.. stacking conditions in general is lazy play.

A condi attack is still just an attack that has to land. I really don't see any functional difference between power and condition damage except the flavor in how they're delivered; power being immediate and condition being more but over a longer period of time.

Confusion and torment are supposed to be burstier conditions because the victim themselves is doing most of the legwork into making those conditions do damage. The main problem and outlier is Mesmer Torch's burning. It's absurdly high. Between the two mesmer torch skills, when traited it's like 18k damage over 4 seconds if you land all three pulses of burning. They need to get trimmed or tuned into one stack across like 12 seconds or something.

Yes the idea behind condition damage is that it deals its damage over a longer period of time. That isn't what is happening though. The intense amount of damage from conditions is being applied almost immediately because they have become so overwhelmingly easy to stack and the only way to mitigate it is through the usage of cooldowns on your skill bar or some classes have traits but those also have internal cooldowns or are tied to other things. Mesmer isn't the only one who is guilty of this very simplistic method of play. Granted yes these builds can be beaten,

however

they are very far from being fun to fight nor healthy for the games PvP across any mode.

Simplistic method of play? So if you're fighting against a power build the only way to avoid the damage is to dodge or use utility skills? It's the exact same thing. If anything condis give you more time to work out what to do. I need to stop running as i have torment, i need to stop spamming skills as i have confusion. With power damage you're just dead!

Except condis can deal damage to you even through dodging, they may not get applied in the initial evade frame of the dodge but dodging does not negate the damage of conditions already applied to you. So not only would you need to use a utility cooldown for a condi clear or for resistance application to avoid the damage, but to avoid the application of a condition you would also be using up your dodge. When it comes to power builds one usually need only dodge to avoid the burst from a skill that then usually goes onto cooldown. There are very specific skills for power builds that can burst people down very quickly and usually one needs to time when to use these skills (I'll get into Deadeye in a minute) so as not to either hit a block, hit an invuln, or have it evaded by a dodge or a skill with an evade. Blocks do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you, no damage effects (Endure Pain, Signet of Stone) do not stop damage from conditions applied to you, evades/dodges do not stop damage from conditions already applied to you.

Deadeye stands as an issue kind of primarily because the rework they did on it made their Death's Judgment unblockable and a stealth skill which means it can be used from stealth and Deadeye's can remain stealthed near indefinitely until they want to leave stealth which they will do after they fire off their Death's Judgment to hit you for an obscene amount of damage, which it is a very fast cast time. Can you dodge that? Sure. Can you invuln that? Sure. Can't block it and I'd argue that you can't dodge it because you'd have to be psychic or have literally no other sound happening in your game and the Deadeye would have to be within closer proximity to you for you to know when that shot is coming from the sound of the skill itself. So yes yet again they overtuned something and it is causing severe issues with the balance and leading to some really cheesey setups. The Deadeye rework, I agree, needs to go or be reworked again because it isn't healthy for PvP.

The issue with conditions is that condition based builds have several skills that put a number of conditions on you or they have a very short cooldown or low resource cost compared to defenses against this. Mesmer for instance has a constant flow of illusions, phantasms, and clones on the field all at once. The rework they did for the class gave them the ability to have a constant source of condition application through the shattering of these clones, especially if you just leave them there. One could argue that you could just go and kill them, they die fast. Right, they do, but then that just leaves the Mesmer and their weapon skills still applying conditions to you and if you use anything to avoid that then here comes their army of clones again for them to shatter and apply conditions with again.

Scourge is pretty much in the same boat there, a plethora of condition skills and sure they are beatable but only through disengaging from melee distance constantly or being a Power Soulbeast/Druid and sometimes even that isn't an assured win due to the near absolute necessity it is to fight on the actual Capture Point in Conquest, but I'll get to why that is an inherent issue in a moment.

The issue may not necessarily come down to Scourge's AoE and the range of it, because I have a much easier time fighting them in WvW where the capture points are much larger or they simply cap slower. What makes Scourge so strong, and why by proxy some Condition based Guardian builds are a problem in this mode as well, is because the capture points are

tiny

. Scourge AoE can envelop the entirety of a Capture Point with the exception of mid point on a couple maps (Eternal Coliseum and Legacy of the Foefire). Granted that is a strength for the class but when the entire purpose and best tactic usually for winning in Conquest is to fight

on

point to delay enemy capture or prolong your own capture that is

broken

especially with how strong conditions are. Melee does not have an advantage there, not even Power builds because while standard logic would dictate that a power melee character would have the advantage there...they don't. They are at a severe disadvantage because defenses against conditions are far less numerous than defenses vs power damage. Scourge even has Barrier to protect against burst damage from power builds.

I'm not saying these scenarios are in such an unwinnable state, don't get that twisted, I'm saying that when fighting against something like that it ends up being such an uphill arduous chore to deal with that requires so very little effort on the behalf of the one playing with such a build, it isn't a fun fight. It is

annoying

.

I play both thief and mesmer. Sometimes i play condi, sometimes power. You talk as if mesmer can shatter constantly? Cry of frustration is the main shatter for condi build and it's a 21 second CD, the prestige is 24 second CD. These are normally comboed together. If you avoid this, there's not much else a condi can do to you. You can use mind wrack but this only applies 1 stack of torment and 2 stacks of confusion, it's good for a blind etc but that's it. Mesmers aren't constantly shattering. Most condi mesmers take a sword, which is a power weapon, just for the invul off the 2 and the port and snare off 3. Which means that's pure utility and does no condi damage. You can use an axe but you'll more than likely get one shot by a warrior or holo etc

People just won't bother learning the classes that are killing them and realise that they have 1 burst window and then have to wait nearly half a minute for everything to come back up to try again. Same as condi thief.

Also people are so stubborn and uncreative they copy cookie cutter builds off sites and won't change them to add more cleanse at the start of a game when they see scourge and condi mes. Then they come crying to the forums because they're too lazy to research and died ignorant.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

@"UfoCoffee.2084" I talk as if Mesmer has more than just one shatter to apply conditions, also sure Cry of Frustration is the "main" shatter for a condi build...you know excluding the trait in Illusions where every shatter skill you have (4 total) applies 6s of Torment per clone or 1 stack per Clone, with Mind Wrack being a 10 second CD or turning into an ammo skill if you use Shatter Storm in Illusions. Confusion hurts for sure, but if I'm getting blasted with conditions I'm typically disengaging anyway to avoid further clones blowing up on me and applying even more conditions to me or I've used a condi cleanse/resistance skill which is now on CD for 20+ seconds, the main ones being 30+ seconds.

Now lets also not forget Torch which can apply 3 to 4 stacks of Burning with its 2 available skills (depending on if you have The Pledge traited over Shatter Storm) on your bar, as well as the weakness, burning, chill, vulnerability, cripple and poisons you can apply with Staff along with Confusion from other sources. Or if you go the route of Axe/Torch then more Torment from axe and additional Confusion and Blind if you pair that with Sword/Pistol.

All of this compounding into a sort of "barrier" to reduce the chance a condi cleanse actually clears damaging condi's and not just something like Cripple, Chilled, Vulnerability or Weakness even though those are dangerous in their own rights, they aren't what is melting your health and even if you remove the Vulnerability to slightly reduce the condition damage you're taking but you still have the large amount of Torment on you then it isn't going to help you because of how much damage its doing to you anyway.

I never once claimed its an unwinnable situation when fighting these builds, I've won against these builds before many, many times, however what might be getting lost in translation here is sure you can try to pull the "you're just being stubborn and uncreative" line except that even with adding additional condi cleanse onto your bar just because of the presence of a single Scourge or Condi Mesmer on the other team tends to shift the effectiveness of some builds when you're solo or even duo queing. This is typically because you don't know what or who you will have on your own team and typically you can't rely on them to be competent if you're playing in anything below Plat 2+ (which honestly is another issue within itself but we won't get into that here). My issue with the strength of condition builds is that they are not a fun fight, they are a chore even when you're up against a less experienced player that is wielding one. The skill entry for condi builds was significantly lessened and while conditions were made stronger a while back and I did agree at the time that they needed to have an effect and not be an after-thought, in true Anet fashion they significantly over-tuned it when they went in and changed it. The Mesmer rework only exacerbated the issue as well, just as Scourge simply being added to the game exacerbated the problem. Maybe initially it wasn't too significant of a problem, at least after some tweaks I think they did, but as time has gone on with other changes to other skills and classes and the addition of new ones it has only gotten worse.

So don't misunderstand, I don't want conditions to become obsolete, I want them to be brought more in line with what a Damage over Time effect should be, and not have them be a Burst over Time effect. Also a part of my issue with them has to do with how AoE oriented a lot of them are and that Capture Points are so tiny when compared up next to the radius of these skills and how strong Conditions are, and also the lack of group queing being present and just really Ranked in a nutshell is a nightmare because of how they gouged it rather than fixing it. So it really isn't just the one thing with conditions, its all of the variables present in a Conquest match that make them so powerful. I honestly have an easier time in WvW against condi builds because I'm not forced to fight on top of a Capture Point the size of a penny (exaggeration) when a Scourge has AoE circles that equate to smushing a palm sized blob of silly putty over the top of said penny.

[EUmad.7645]

why is direct damage burst till a thing ? it is only a problem of l2p... to learn to avoid burst.... condi or direct....

[Vieux P.1238]

@EUmad.7645 said:why is direct damage burst till a thing ? it is only a problem of l2p... to learn to avoid burst.... condi or direct....

Hahahahaah this guy is funny. I guess he don't know about the many skill's with absolutely no tell's that let's you directly telegraph you to your target. Delivering what ever massive condi or direct damage with out being block or dodged. You could dodge if at least you could see it coming.

[EUmad.7645]

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@EUmad.7645 said:why is direct damage burst till a thing ? it is only a problem of l2p... to learn to avoid burst.... condi or direct....

Hahahahaah this guy is funny. I guess he don't know about the many skill's with absolutely no tell's that let's you directly telegraph you to your target. Delivering what ever massive condi or direct damage with out being block or dodged. You could dodge if at least you could see it coming.

What is the difference from a burst condi or direct ? in any case if u don't avoid it you get the damage ..... it is true for direct damage as for condi as well. I was answering to the post Burning burst is a thing as direct burst ... and how many condi builds are in meta now ?

[Vieux P.1238]

@EUmad.7645 said:

@Vieux P.1238 said:

@EUmad.7645 said:why is direct damage burst till a thing ? it is only a problem of l2p... to learn to avoid burst.... condi or direct....

Hahahahaah this guy is funny. I guess he don't know about the many skill's with absolutely no tell's that let's you directly telegraph you to your target. Delivering what ever massive condi or direct damage with out being block or dodged. You could dodge if at least you could see it coming.

What is the difference from a burst condi or direct ? in any case if u don't avoid it you get the damage ..... it is true for direct damage as for condi as well. I was answering to the post Burning burst is a thing as direct burst ... and how many condi builds are in meta now ?

Burst condi dont take account armor as direct damage from a power build. If you need to know how many condi builds in the meta go to metabattle.