Impossible to fix Mirage? Maybe total revamp required.

[Jannie.2975]

I would really be happy to see a serious nerf hit the Mirage. Let the Mirage work for once for the victory. Get that Mirage down by a noticeable amount where it is underperforming and then finely adjust the Mirage with 1-3 balance patches to a fair and healthy Nivea. All these "1% damage decrease here, 0,5% damage increase there" kind of thing is not working. We cannot wait for the next 10 years until you have this Mirage fixed.

[Yamazuki.6073]

@Jannie.2975 said:All games have understood this concept

What games are these?I haven't played any MMORPG with balanced PvP; Thieves going into stealth and popping up to 100->0 a tank.MOBAs? Have you heard of Rengar 1.0? 2.0? etc Twitch? Le Broken? Eve?Shooters? 100-0 happens all the time.

Assassins in pvp are flawed from a design perspective, the only solution is to not have them at all; seeing as that won't happen, you just have to deal with it.

[Jannie.2975]

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@"Jannie.2975" said:All games have understood this concept

What games are these?I haven't played any MMORPG with balanced PvP; Thieves going into stealth and popping up to 100->0 a tank.MOBAs? Have you heard of Rengar 1.0? 2.0? etc Twitch? Le Broken? Eve?Shooters? 100-0 happens all the time.

Assassins in pvp are flawed from a design perspective, the only solution is to not have them at all; seeing as that won't happen, you just have to deal with it.

I can only hope that the development team gets to read this comment.The thing is that I played for example LoL over many years and I worked myself up to high Diamond ranks. I lived through the development of LoL over the years and I learned a lot about what fundamental concepts are "healthy" for the game and what other concepts rather break the games. Since you mentioned LoL as an example, LoL had its childhood calamities and they implemented hazardous game concepts they had to remove again. We can say that they have had their experiences made and they have learned from their mistakes. Now, since they have invented the wheel, why would those in future want to "reinvent" the wheel?I know that for example the stealthed Evelynn was an issue in LoL when she was introduced. This is what Riot Games did. They INTENTIONALLY overnerfed Evelynn so that she would become a niche hero. Riot Games officially admitted that they had intentionally overnerfed Evelynn into oblivion so that people would be discouraged of playing her to stomp others. They admitted that "stealth" was a horrendously difficult trait to balance. They had Evelynn put on ice until Evelynn was revamped. Then I remember Riot having admitted that they wanted all stealth characters intentionally slightly underperforming across the board. This is the problem with "stealth".In LoL just one trait, the "stealth" was causing havoc in the game. Now let us look at the Mirage. Mirage comes with MORE. Mirage comes with "stealth", with "Clone spamming" so that you will waste your skills and attacks against useless clones who body block and tank and with "target break".In gaming there are two types of tanking. One being the block-tanking and the other being the "evasion-tanking". Mirage is literally the strongest "evasion-tank" in the history of gaming. On top of that the Mirage comes with some insane burst DPS that would not even be considered as part of the game in games like LoL. In LoL the "assassin" role has the task of "cleaning up". In LoL all assassins are designed to be incapable of deleting anybody 100 > 0 (unfed assassin of course). This is what makes the "assassin" playstyle challenging and skillbased usually, to be patient and to take out high priority targets when they are low, jump in, get the 50% damage out to remove the high priority out of the fight, and oftentimes sacrifice its own life for the life of that eleminated target.This is how an "assassin" is made. An "assassin" usually has single-target gap closers, usually coming with weakening stats that make the target take more damage, they run their combo in hope of bursting the target down, then the "assassin" is DONE and it is usually a sitting duck trying to limp out of the crowd. Take it like an "assassin" would "exhaust" itself after one burst and then it would be easy prey.Another example out of LoL was Kassadin who was permabanned in EVERY ranked game for YEARS. Imaging ALL the single ranked games played over the years, one ban was ALWAYS reserved of Kassadin. Why? Kassadin was a burst mage who had a blink skill on short cooldown. He could blink on targets and deal insane damage all around himself, and then he could continue blinking throughout the entire match and nobody could catch him or kill him. THIS taught that assassins cannot have this type of freely blinking around and having such high mobility but that assassins must have ONE blink in onto the target, take it out, and usually give their lives for the target they took out of the game or tried to take out of the game.Now, let us look at the Mirage: The Mirage has a long range blink on open field: "poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin effect and worthy of permaban"The Mirage has 3 additional short distance blinks on short cooldown: "poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin effect and worthy of permaban"The Mirage has one portal that has reasonable range distance on PvE maps but relatively insane distance coverage on the small PvP maps: "extremely poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin would dream of such powers! Definitely worthy of eternal death"The Mirage has skills that break targeting: "extremely poor design choice because the challenge for assassins is to wait for the right timing to pounce out of the bush when all are preoccupied and quickly take one target out before it can be targeted by others who just wait for the assassin to come, saving their hard CC for him. That's what it is all about and Mirage is safe against that. Quite the opposite of what is right"The Mirage is the strongest Evasion TANK (PvP) in the game: "Assassins are supposed to be squishy and easily taken out once caught with any kind of hard or even soft CC. They are definitely not tanky in any form, be it block tanking or especially evasion tanking"The Mirage cannot be baited or lured into uncomfortable situations where it can be punished.The Mirage cannot be shut down.The Mirage has no matchups that would be unfavorable, there are no Mirage hard counters while Mirage hard counters almost all other classes in the game.

So, what is the Mirage? The Mirage is the tankiest assassin (evasion tank) with the greatest mobility and relatively highest burst DPS output in gaming history without any clear counterplay.Simple fact: "Mirage is a design flaw, simple fact without question."

[kounabi.4352]

May i suggest some solutions.kill clones?have cleanse?mesmer playstyle was always the same,, confuse the enemy among your clones, we have low hp and low armor ,we are not for close combat, get over with it.in every match i do ,there is someone that dont like the cond that i spam on him ...well try to found a way to avoid it.Well I can manage the cond thief that i fight,,,its hard but i can beat them most of the time..About the power mesmer build one-shot...if you spot him and goes stealth then found a way to be on defence until he appear to spike you.

[Hot Boy.7138]

@"Jannie.2975" said:The purpose of "assassins" is to "clean up", not to erase players 100 > 0 before they can press any key on their keyboard. I am sorry but I don't agree with you at all, Sigmoid.7082.

I been saying this for a long time. I totally agree with you.

[Daishi.6027]

Mirage is not hard to fight if you can anticipate burst and manipulate AI pathing.

A suggestion I have is to keep auto target off, and turn promote retarget on.

In a few instances you may have to read your opponent to shift momentum, but we should not nerf based upon players not capable of doing so.

The nerfs are a noticeable difference if you aren’t bad, and some matchups particularly vs condi are a lot more fair.

[Solori.6025]

@Jannie.2975 said:

@Yamazuki.6073 said:

@Jannie.2975 said:All games have understood this concept

What games are these?I haven't played any MMORPG with balanced PvP; Thieves going into stealth and popping up to 100->0 a tank.MOBAs? Have you heard of Rengar 1.0? 2.0? etc Twitch? Le Broken? Eve?Shooters? 100-0 happens all the time.

Assassins in pvp are flawed from a design perspective, the only solution is to not have them at all; seeing as that won't happen, you just have to deal with it.

I can only hope that the development team gets to read this comment.The thing is that I played for example LoL over many years and I worked myself up to high Diamond ranks. I lived through the development of LoL over the years and I learned a lot about what fundamental concepts are "healthy" for the game and what other concepts rather break the games. Since you mentioned LoL as an example, LoL had its childhood calamities and they implemented hazardous game concepts they had to remove again. We can say that they have had their experiences made and they have learned from their mistakes. Now, since they have invented the wheel, why would those in future want to "reinvent" the wheel?I know that for example the stealthed Evelynn was an issue in LoL when she was introduced. This is what Riot Games did. They INTENTIONALLY overnerfed Evelynn so that she would become a niche hero. Riot Games officially admitted that they had intentionally overnerfed Evelynn into oblivion so that people would be discouraged of playing her to stomp others. They admitted that "stealth" was a horrendously difficult trait to balance. They had Evelynn put on ice until Evelynn was revamped. Then I remember Riot having admitted that they wanted all stealth characters intentionally slightly underperforming across the board. This is the problem with "stealth".In LoL just one trait, the "stealth" was causing havoc in the game. Now let us look at the Mirage. Mirage comes with MORE. Mirage comes with "stealth", with "Clone spamming" so that you will waste your skills and attacks against useless clones who body block and tank and with "target break".In gaming there are two types of tanking. One being the block-tanking and the other being the "evasion-tanking". Mirage is literally the strongest "evasion-tank" in the history of gaming. On top of that the Mirage comes with some insane burst DPS that would not even be considered as part of the game in games like LoL. In LoL the "assassin" role has the task of "cleaning up". In LoL all assassins are designed to be incapable of deleting anybody 100 > 0 (unfed assassin of course). This is what makes the "assassin" playstyle challenging and skillbased usually, to be patient and to take out high priority targets when they are low, jump in, get the 50% damage out to remove the high priority out of the fight, and oftentimes sacrifice its own life for the life of that eleminated target.This is how an "assassin" is made. An "assassin" usually has single-target gap closers, usually coming with weakening stats that make the target take more damage, they run their combo in hope of bursting the target down, then the "assassin" is DONE and it is usually a sitting duck trying to limp out of the crowd. Take it like an "assassin" would "exhaust" itself after one burst and then it would be easy prey.Another example out of LoL was Kassadin who was permabanned in EVERY ranked game for YEARS. Imaging ALL the single ranked games played over the years, one ban was ALWAYS reserved of Kassadin. Why? Kassadin was a burst mage who had a blink skill on short cooldown. He could blink on targets and deal insane damage all around himself, and then he could continue blinking throughout the entire match and nobody could catch him or kill him. THIS taught that assassins cannot have this type of freely blinking around and having such high mobility but that assassins must have ONE blink in onto the target, take it out, and usually give their lives for the target they took out of the game or tried to take out of the game.

This is not LoL. You are literally comparing apples to bricks right now. If you like the functionality of how LoL does the assassin characters I would suggest you stick to playing LoL for your pvp, because you are not going to magically get anet to totally redesign core concepts of stealth classes or stealth itself.

Now, let us look at the Mirage: Play mirage first.The Mirage has a long range blink on open field: "poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin effect and worthy of permaban"So do other classes, what's the point of this? Blink, shadow step, lightning flash. All are instant movement blinks.Been so since 2012. Why is this a problem for you all of a sudden?Thanks for the LoL tag at the end i guess, but since this a completely different game. The comparison is irrelevant.The Mirage has 3 additional short distance blinks on short cooldown: "poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin effect and worthy of permaban"30s is a short cooldown? LOLIn other news moa has too short of a cooldown tooThanks for that. I needed to laugh today :bleep_bloop:

The Mirage has one portal that has reasonable range distance on PvE maps but relatively insane distance coverage on the small PvP maps: "extremely poor design choice for an assassin - Kassadin would dream of such powers! Definitely worthy of eternal death"

Ahh yes, believe me.From the release of this game. I remember mesmer players crying out for other classes to get a portal so we werent only taken for that gimmick. In pve and pvp.If you want to take portal or make it's duration shorter in spvp then by all means. I do not object to this.

The Mirage has skills that break targeting: "extremely poor design choice because the challenge for assassins is to wait for the right timing to pounce out of the bush when all are preoccupied and quickly take one target out before it can be targeted by others who just wait for the assassin to come, saving their hard CC for him. That's what it is all about and Mirage is safe against that. Quite the opposite of what is right"Mirage has skills that break target, on Axe- which puts the mirage back in meleeOn a utility that isn't used because all it does is spawn clones RIGHT NEXT TO YOUand a new deception that may or may not get you killed.If you use the utilities you give up either blink,portal, or stealth.So.. That leaves Axe.. that is the only reliable thing you have that effectively breaks target.And puts you back in PBAoE range, with all the clones that die to cleave..

Are we seeing why this is a non issue?

The Mirage is the strongest Evasion TANK (PvP) in the game: "Assassins are supposed to be squishy and easily taken out once caught with any kind of hard or even soft CC. They are definitely not tanky in any form, be it block tanking or especially evasion tanking"This is actually false as long as sword/dagger and daredevil exist in this game a thief will always be able to out dodge a mirage. This is something we call misinformation and hyperbole.The Mirage cannot be baited or lured into uncomfortable situations where it can be punished.False if you are good. Very true if you just are terrible.

The Mirage has no matchups that would be unfavorable, there are no Mirage hard counters while Mirage hard counters almost all other classes in the game.Very false and the list has actually grown. Spellbreaker for example has a very favorable match up vs mirage. I would suggest playing the game more.So, what is the Mirage? The Mirage is the tankiest assassin (evasion tank) with the greatest mobility and relatively highest burst DPS output in gaming history without any clear counterplay.Couple of false statements.Mirage is not the best evasion spec and hasn't beenMirage (portal aside ) does not have the best mobility, that medal goes to and will always belong to- ThiefSimple fact: "Mirage is a design flaw, simple fact without question."While I do agree some things on Mirage are complete design fails (Specifically elusive mind) What you seem to have a problem with are a lot of core mechanics on mesmer. Which is something a lot of people have basically learned to deal with back during launch.

[ezd.6359]

You can't compare games directly. Just can't. If we remember Aion for example (pvp, mmo, ncsoft) we will see opposite things like almost permanent stealth (assassins) + kill enemies with CC lock.

[LegendaVagyok.9132]

Just another pointless discussion, OP make sure that what you say is right, these are unending false statements. If you have issues with the current state of mirage then play with a counter build, there are many: Holo, SB, Soulbeast, CoreG, so on ... we don’t want to see post like these, boring AF seeing this much cry.