Condi engi hasn't been viable in 4-5 years!

[Tehologist.5841]

I feel that engi conditions are about right with duration to stacks. The low cool downs on condition clear and the fact that some classes can stack a lot in short time is the issue. I still can't figure out if grenades are better for power, condi or hybrid builds.

[coro.3176]

@Tehologist.5841 said:I feel that engi conditions are about right with duration to stacks. The low cool downs on condition clear and the fact that some classes can stack a lot in short time is the issue. I still can't figure out if grenades are better for power, condi or hybrid builds.

They're all right for both. With power, you only want to do Grenade Barrage, then maybe Freeze Grenade, Shrapnel Grenade. With Condi, you only want to do Poison, then Shrapnel with maybe others for utility/cover/bleed procs.

--

had some fights vs Holosmith recently, and it's never been more apparent just how unbalanced the current situation is. I dodge all the Holo's Photon Forge stuff with my 2 dodges and 2-second toolkit block. I succeed. I get close and land a melee range Blowtorch to the face and a Rocket Kick to follow up, some poison and bleed for good measure.

I should win now, right? We're both equally squishy. My skills are shorter range, longer cooldown, and harder to land. Nope. Best case I have to wait ~5-10s while the condis tick all the while trying not to get insta-downed by the Holo. Worst case, they instantly cleanse it all and I have to wait ~15 seconds before I can apply meaningful pressure again.

Condi engi has to work SO HARD for its damage and there's just no benefit

[archmagus.7249]

I'd say that the specialization patch did a good thing for condition engineers, giving them the highest condition DPS in the game at the cost of the highest skill cap. Now with Max Condi duration, picking up chemical rounds will get you a 15 second burn on a 12 second cooldown.

[Josif.2015]

@coro.3176 said:

@Tehologist.5841 said:I feel that engi conditions are about right with duration to stacks. The low cool downs on condition clear and the fact that some classes can stack a lot in short time is the issue. I still can't figure out if grenades are better for power, condi or hybrid builds.Condi engi has to work SO HARD for its damage and there's just no benefit

Holosmith should be the specialization with the worst condition cleanse. It's so dominant at this point that I don't think making this already powerful specialization very vulnerable to conditions. So vulnerable that once the Holosmith uses their healing skill, they are immediately vulnerable to conditions.

Unfortunately, that isn't the case currently. Downsides come with every elite specialization, but for the Holosmith seems to have everything: high damage, CC, projectile reflection, a light field which can be used for cleansing conditions, a stun breaker that recharges 50% faster above the heat threshold (20 seconds) that gives them 50% damage reduction, an unblockable elite etc. And ArenaNet thought it was a good idea to get rid of Alchemical Tinctures.

[coro.3176]

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@"Tehologist.5841" said:I feel that engi conditions are about right with duration to stacks. The low cool downs on condition clear and the fact that some classes can stack a lot in short time is the issue. I still can't figure out if grenades are better for power, condi or hybrid builds.Condi engi has to work SO HARD for its damage and there's just no benefit

Holosmith should be the specialization with the worst condition cleanse. It's so dominant at this point that I don't think making this already powerful specialization very vulnerable to conditions. So vulnerable that once the Holosmith uses their healing skill, they are immediately vulnerable to conditions.

It sort-of is this way, but there are a few skills/traits that put it over the top if you go with the conversion spec, and that's really frustrating for condi builds because if you get close and you take that much risk to land your melee range burst, you expect it to work. After all, if the holo landed THEIR melee range burst, you'd be dead.

But even if you catch them when their cleanse is down and load them up with condi, they still have ample opportunity to just turn around and 1-combo you while it ticks. Then they either stomp you or win the downed fight because power > condi when downed, plus you'll be going down first thanks to their burst.

To add insult to injury, if the holo takes tools, they are immune to your go-to defense on a condi build, static shot. You think you landed that clutch static shot to blind them so that Holo Shockwave doesn't hit you, but it does because https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactive_Lenses procs... I thought we were done with these stupid passive procs in pvp..

[Chaith.8256]

@coro.3176 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@coro.3176 said:To add insult to injury, if the holo takes tools, they are immune to your go-to defense on a condi build, static shot. You think you landed that clutch static shot to blind them so that Holo Shockwave doesn't hit you, but it does because

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactive_Lenses

procs... I thought we were done with these stupid passive procs in pvp..

I don't really know why you're complaining about Reactive lenses, as if it synergizes with Holo. It's rarely taken, an ok core Engineer trait that is about as overall useful as Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

Also it's easy to hate on Holo from core condi engineer perspective but with Mirage, Scourge&FB, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, even Power Rev and Thief being as powerful as they are, I'm glad Holo is still relevant in PvP... There's no way Scrapper or core can compete

[Peutrifectus.4830]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@coro.3176 said:To add insult to injury, if the holo takes tools, they are immune to your go-to defense on a condi build, static shot. You think you landed that clutch static shot to blind them so that Holo Shockwave doesn't hit you, but it does because

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactive_Lenses

procs... I thought we were done with these stupid passive procs in pvp..

I don't really know why you're complaining about Reactive lenses, as if it synergizes with Holo. It's rarely taken, an ok core Engineer trait that is about as overall useful as Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

Also it's easy to hate on Holo from core condi engineer perspective but with Mirage, Scourge&FB, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, even Power Rev and Thief being as powerful as they are, I'm glad Holo is still relevant in PvP... There's no way Scrapper or core can compete

And here in lies the issue... You can't buff a core skill or trait/trait line without indirectly buffing holo. Simply because they can pick and choose from core trait lines... Hmmm.

To bring the other options up to scratch, they'd have to tone down holo and I just don't see that happening :(

[Vagrant.7206]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@coro.3176 said:To add insult to injury, if the holo takes tools, they are immune to your go-to defense on a condi build, static shot. You think you landed that clutch static shot to blind them so that Holo Shockwave doesn't hit you, but it does because

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactive_Lenses

procs... I thought we were done with these stupid passive procs in pvp..

I don't really know why you're complaining about Reactive lenses, as if it synergizes with Holo. It's rarely taken, an ok core Engineer trait that is about as overall useful as Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

Also it's easy to hate on Holo from core condi engineer perspective but with Mirage, Scourge&FB, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, even Power Rev and Thief being as powerful as they are, I'm glad Holo is still relevant in PvP... There's no way Scrapper or core can compete

And here in lies the issue... You can't buff a core skill or trait/trait line without indirectly buffing holo. Simply because they can pick and choose from core trait lines... Hmmm.

To bring the other options up to scratch, they'd have to tone down holo and I just don't see that happening :(

To be fair, they'd also have to seriously tone down other classes too. FB can cleanse like crazy, and mirage dumps conditions way faster than condi engi ever could.

[Chaith.8256]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@coro.3176 said:To add insult to injury, if the holo takes tools, they are immune to your go-to defense on a condi build, static shot. You think you landed that clutch static shot to blind them so that Holo Shockwave doesn't hit you, but it does because

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reactive_Lenses

procs... I thought we were done with these stupid passive procs in pvp..

I don't really know why you're complaining about Reactive lenses, as if it synergizes with Holo. It's rarely taken, an ok core Engineer trait that is about as overall useful as Static Discharge or Power Wrench.

Also it's easy to hate on Holo from core condi engineer perspective but with Mirage, Scourge&FB, Spellbreaker, Soulbeast, even Power Rev and Thief being as powerful as they are, I'm glad Holo is still relevant in PvP... There's no way Scrapper or core can compete

And here in lies the issue... You can't buff a core skill or trait/trait line without indirectly buffing holo. Simply because they can pick and choose from core trait lines... Hmmm.

To bring the other options up to scratch, they'd have to tone down holo and I just don't see that happening :(

Yes I've touched on that subject many times. And it all comes down to the fact of, if you plan to buff something on Engineer, why not make it kit related, condi related, or Scrapper related? I outlined dozens of individual suggestions that would make the Engineer profession more balanced between Core/Scrapper/Holo without making Holo perform better.

Recently, ArenaNet changed Elixir U and buffed invulnerabilities, I can't say these were great changes as it led to a slight power boost for Holo.

A couple recent changes indicate ArenaNet understands this concept, they buffed condi in mostly minuscule ways:

• Poison Grenade: Increased the stacks of poison inflicted by each grenade from 1 stack to 3 stacks.

• Poison Dart Volley: Increased the duration of poison inflicted by each shot from 5 seconds to 6 seconds.

• Napalm: Reduced the duration of this skill from 10 seconds to 8 seconds. Increased the duration of burning inflicted by each pulse of this skill from 2.5 seconds to 3 seconds. Reduced the cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds. (This was a suggestion of mine.)

• Thermal Vision: This trait has been reworked and now grants up to 150 expertise at level 80. Inflicting burning increases the engineer's condition damage by 10% for 4 seconds.

Kind of a meh buff to Scrapper too,

• Detection Pulse: Reduced the casting time of this skill by 0.25 seconds, and the aftercast has been reduced by approximately 0.3 seconds.

Obviously the Elixir U change helped Scrapper even more than Holo, but still, utilities that interact with Holo should be carefully changed.

[Silinsar.6298]

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:And here in lies the issue... You can't buff a core skill or trait/trait line without indirectly buffing holo. Simply because they can pick and choose from core trait lines... Hmmm.

To bring the other options up to scratch, they'd have to tone down holo and I just don't see that happening :(

Why don't you see that happening? They've already shown willingness to shave big balance "offenses": Stab application, AA damage, TRV damage/burn, Spectrum shield CD and damage reduction stacking. The alchemy changes also lowered easily available condition cleanse. Which means now Holos either run Inventions over Alch which lowers their sustain vs power or they keep using Alch over Inventions (less condi cleanse). If you run both Alch and Inventions you got your defenses covered well but your damage will suffer accordingly. Though I still think core engi was hit the hardest by it because it has fewer alternatives for condition removal through rapid protection application.

As for buffing core without over-tuning holo, the solutions is probably buffing stuff holo has problems / no business using. What pretty much all holos want on their skillbar one way or the other is:

• Cond remove (HLA+Inventions, Elixir C, EGun),
• defense/sustain (HLA, Spectrum Shield, Photon Wall)
• stunbreak(s) (Spectrum Shield, EGun, Elixir U).

That leaves little room for offensive utility and since holo locks you out of kits you won't be spending much time in them. Pretty much any kit besides EGun, the Explosives and Firearms traitlines and of course all elite TB skills are good candidates for this.

Since core suffers from the same limited bar and does not get free access to an additional weapon/kit a la holo forge my first approach would be to make Elite TB skills cover one of the essentials mentioned above. E.g. Supply drop could break stun (or at least immob & movement impairing conds so you can better pick up the packages), Mortar's TB skill could work like the old rocket boots (kicking yourself back while breaking stun, maybe with a dodge frame or a KB at the start), Elixir X's TB could provide some invulnerability that doesn't lock you out of skills (or just damage negation like Endure Pain). This would "free" a utility slot for core / scrapper in comparison with holo which seems fair since holo basically gets a free kit.

As for kits: traits like Juggernaut and the current version of Backpack Regenerator are what could compete with holo's playstyle, because they encourage and reward staying in kits for longer times. Kits themselves (especially FT, Bombs and Nades) need to perform better so you don't gimp yourself by staying in them for a longer time. TK is amazing for utility but not so much as a weapon because of the slow AA chain.

Firearms and Explosives desperately need more utility besides damage. The strength of the Holo line compared to those lines is that it doesn't only boost close range damage, it also provides some sustain, cond remove and stab. Couple appropriate buffs with the kits mentioned above so holo has a harder time using them:

• In explosives there could be traits for extra effects on bombs (like a cauterizing fire bomb, removing conds) and grenades (stab application while standing in poison nades, for whatever reason). I'd also like some sort of extra CC added back to explosives (e.g. it used to have KB on turret deaths, but due to HT can be a straight buff to all engi specs). A daze on a explosive hitting a target with a threshold of vuln stacks with 15-20 sec ICD could be nice.
• Firearms could similarly buff weapon skills, but there again the problem could be them also applying to holo too well. What could work would be traits severely buffing performance in close quarters (similar to already existing traits), but limiting it Rifle/Pistols. That way core would get better tools to strike in close range but holo wouldn't benefit from it that much (traits not active while in forge, which holo wants to use in melee).

[Dajas.4715]

I miss the glory days...such nostalgia when I looks back how good the class was, os and duel room I rarely lost they were that good. Now I play the same setup I just get facerolled you have to play your aaa game to stand a chance now. Wish I had made more Vida in the past but my PC was like how core engi is now....rubbish

[coro.3176]

... and still garbage. .. and they nerfed Thermal Vision specifically for condi 'cause why not?..

[Peutrifectus.4830]

Unless you have 2000+ condi dmg, you get more from Pinpoint Distribution :/ ofc that now forces the choice, more dmg for you and your team or more duration from expertise.... I think PD has just become the no brainer for condi

Though on the plus side, bomb kit 4 and 5 will now proc vulnerability and bleed if traited

[coro.3176]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:Unless you have 2000+ condi dmg, you get more from Pinpoint Distribution :/ ofc that now forces the choice, more dmg for you and your team or more duration from expertise.... I think PD has just become the no brainer for condi

Though on the plus side, bomb kit 4 and 5 will now proc vulnerability and bleed if traited

That's completely insignificant. The skills still aren't worth using for PvE because they don't do any damage, and the amount of damage from one bleed proc in PvP/WvW is negligible.

Now that there is even more shared condi cleanse from revenant, it's going to be even more frustrating to play condi in PvP/WvW. They might as well delete pistols at this point. You just have to work SO HARD to make any damage stick, and holo just comes along and aoe-cc-nukes everything in 1/10th the time + effort it would take you to down one player, and for half the skill!

[Peutrifectus.4830]

True. Don't misunderstand me dude, I know condi engi is an utter shower of sh it but I'm looking for silver linings... Somewhere... Anywhere :(

[Tehologist.5841]

How many stacks of vulnerability/bleed gets procc'ed from smoke bomb or glue bomb, is it one per use or pulsing explosives?

[Peutrifectus.4830]

33% chance to bleed/crip on hit per pulse as per firebomb

[Tehologist.5841]

So 3 possible each with only 33% chance, yeah that sucks.

[Peutrifectus.4830]

Vulnerability on each though for what it's worth

[Tehologist.5841]

Would be okay if did enough damage for 10% bonus against vulnerable from explosive trait lines was significant. The damage from these skills is negligible.

[Vagrant.7206]

So really, smoke bomb is now just as valuable as flash grenades? Or wait, slightly less?

Whoo boy, we're making progress!

[coro.3176]

@Vagrant.7206 said:So really, smoke bomb is now just as valuable as flash grenades? Or wait, slightly less?

Whoo boy, we're making progress!

At this rate, I think condi will be on par with Holo around the year Guild Wars 7 is released.