Balance vs Uniqueness - a point many players ignore

[cryorion.9532]

@"Obtena.7952" said:You don't see it, but this post explains exactly what you don't understand; balance isn't just about the few mechanics you think are overtuned. A class is defined by all it's toolset, not just the overtuned portions. In fact, correct balance could result in overtuned mechanics.

"Few mechanics", I assumed that mentioning only some would be enough as example, but oh well...It seems that you don't understand what healthy gameplay is. Don't you think that overtuned portions should be balanced?Correct balance can't result in overtuned mechanics. That is just failed "balance". Unless you meant that every class can perform something extreme, thus balance, which is pretty unhealthy gameplay...

Btw, just reminder what this is all about: Currently certain classes can do pretty extreme stuff in combat. I am talking about balancing this stuff and that it can be done without destroying class identity.

[Obtena.7952]

Why do you think correct balance doesn't result in overtuned mechanics? Because you say so? Sounds convenient to just spread your thinking as the truth but I'm not buying it. I've played enough MMOs to know that a game can be balanced AND have some classes able to do extreme things.

It's really not worth the argument anyways because if Anet did recognize these things as needing toning down and they haven't done it, there is a reason for that. Maybe they can balance this stuff without destroying class identity ... seems to me you haven't asked yourself why it hasn't been done yet. Maybe you just overlooked the idea that it's within Anet's intentions to have these 'overtuned' things.

Frankly, I don't see a need to balance these things at all. You claim it's not healthy gameplay? That sounds like an excuse to ignore strategy and tactics if you ask me.

[Axl.8924]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:You don't see it, but this post explains exactly what you don't understand; balance isn't just about the few mechanics you think are overtuned. A class is defined by all it's toolset, not just the overtuned portions. In fact, correct balance could result in overtuned mechanics.

"Few mechanics", I assumed that mentioning only some would be enough as example, but oh well...It seems that you don't understand what healthy gameplay is. Don't you think that overtuned portions should be balanced?Correct balance can't result in overtuned mechanics. That is just failed "balance". Unless you meant that every class can perform something extreme, thus balance, which is pretty unhealthy gameplay...

Btw, just reminder what this is all about: Currently certain classes can do pretty extreme stuff in combat. I am talking about balancing this stuff and that it can be done without destroying class identity.

Well its because the dmg on pve for many is too much in pvp, so its a huge issue of having lots of burst in pvp but to be competitive you need a lot of burst in pve.pve burst doesn't mix well in pve.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Why do you think correct balance doesn't result in overtuned mechanics? Because you say so? Sounds convenient to just spread your thinking as the truth but I'm not buying it. I've played enough MMOs to know that a game can be balanced AND have some classes able to do extreme things.

It's really not worth the argument anyways because if Anet did recognize these things as needing toning down and they haven't done it, there is a reason for that. Maybe they can balance this stuff without destroying class identity ... seems to me you haven't asked yourself why it hasn't been done yet. Maybe you just overlooked the idea that it's within Anet's intentions to have these 'overtuned' things.

Frankly, I don't see a need to balance these things at all. You claim it's not healthy gameplay? That sounds like an excuse to ignore strategy and tactics if you ask me.

Yes, this stops now. There is no point in arguing with someone that lacks common sense. Also, sad that you chose calling my opinion as "convenient to just spread my thinking as the truth". The easiest way to argue, isn't it? The last sentence just shows that you have no idea about what you are talking about.

[FyzE.3472]

@BadMed.3846 said:Thanks for enlightening us. I now want a unique class that is invulnerable to all types of damage. And I want it to be highest dps in game. Don't worry about balance. I'll be unique.

Oh you're gonna love mirage then :-)

[Nerah.8235]

A class can be "unique" and still be no fun to play.

As a thought example: imagine a class with literally no ability to deal damage in a game centered around teams capturing points. Maybe it has great graphics skins, can teleport, and can apply various types of CC. Pretty unique. Only problem: it can't take points (no damage) or hold points (can't kill anyone, so can't defend). Nor is it really very good in teamfights (again, no damage). Maybe it can heal? Or do something with "conditions"? Since this class would do no damage, most players would become frustrated, as any damage class could potentially hard-counter them or at worst just ignore them. The player would also alienate his team, in that they would essentially always be fighting at a -1 disadvantage. No fun for anyone.

I don't have any problem with "unique", as long as that means that the mechanics are fun to use for the player, and fun to fight for his opponents (shouldn't feel too oppressive). GW2 seems to have a lot of problems related to the second. I am pretty sure every mesmer and deadeye player LOVES laying waste to foes, but it seems like those foes really don't enjoy the experience very much.

[Obtena.7952]

@cryorion.9532 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Why do you think correct balance doesn't result in overtuned mechanics? Because you say so? Sounds convenient to just spread your thinking as the truth but I'm not buying it. I've played enough MMOs to know that a game can be balanced AND have some classes able to do extreme things.

It's really not worth the argument anyways because if Anet did recognize these things as needing toning down and they haven't done it, there is a reason for that. Maybe they can balance this stuff without destroying class identity ... seems to me you haven't asked yourself why it hasn't been done yet. Maybe you just overlooked the idea that it's within Anet's intentions to have these 'overtuned' things.

Frankly, I don't see a need to balance these things at all. You claim it's not healthy gameplay? That sounds like an excuse to ignore strategy and tactics if you ask me.

Yes, this stops now. There is no point in arguing with someone that lacks common sense. Also, sad that you chose calling my opinion as "convenient to just spread my thinking as the truth". The easiest way to argue, isn't it? The last sentence just shows that you have no idea about what you are talking about.

It's the easiest way to argue because you didn't say why ... you just stated it as fact. I'm not going to guess what you are thinking to dispute it's validity.

Their isn't any lack of common sense here. I've overcome plenty of stronger foes because I have better tactics and strategies to win than they do. Balance had nothing to do with it. I've been beaten for the same reasons. Balance is not a necessary part of healthy gameplay; This game is proof of it because it's designed to not need it (yes, even in PVP to some extent!) It's simply nice to have it. If you are getting bested because of 'balance' and that bothers you, you better make better choices in class/gear/traits/etc ... so you have a better chance to be successful.

The fact is pretty simple; balance is much more difficult to achieve than you give Anet credit for and your posts are evidence of that. Technically, you aren't actually looking for balance; you just want some overtuned elements tuned down ... DO NOT try to sell that as balance to the people that know better.