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[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

[apharma.3741]

@"Flandre.2870" said:1.Reflect on dodge - this trait needs to go, rework2.chaotic interruption- this needs to go too, absolute cancer3.scepter block - make it literally twice the cooldown4.scepter 3 - this is so kitten overtuned its what makes chrono obnoxious too, just gape this skill 30% dmg power dmg nerf and 2 conf off or so5.chaos traitline is cancer, reduce boon duration down the line including the chaos armor prot trait6.axe3 down to like 2 conf from 6 but up the conf from clones7.axe ambush is cancer passive dmg, idk what to do with it but it needs a nerf

8. power damage mantra of pain is overtuned and too spammable in pvp
9. deceptive evasion needs an icdi'd also buff domination since it hasn't been used at all and the nerfs to it were unjustified from pvp point of viewcondi mirage will always be unfun to play against. power mirage actually has to outplay its opponent.thus i'd rather balance mirage around power variant than condialthough infinite horizon on sword is extremly unfun to vs so i'd look into that

I agree except for:

2. Chaotic Interruption. It's never been a really strong trait most of the time, people spam skills now and don't think about it, mirage + chrono have spammable CC too. It's strength is in relation to other factors.
3. Chaos Traitline. Compare it to every other defensive line in the game and it's not that good, not that bad either. Good GMs though and AA is busted. You should be more specific though.
4. Deceptive Evasion. Yeah OK clones are spammed out a lot more but have you thought of how pathetically easy it's become to kill them? DE has never been a problem even when we had better energy sigils, adventure runes and vigor was 100% endurance regen.

As far as scepter goes I think the block needs the torment reducing in stacks to about 3, clones down to 1 and back up to 8-10s cool down. Scepter 3 should be up to 12-15s CD, power damage scaled back to 2.0 mod, confusion down to 5 stacks for 2s. Alternatively rework scepter 3 as it's clunky but I wouldn't know where to begin.

Evasive Mirror maybe a better idea would be to buff the mirror effect to 4s but have it apply on heal with a 20s ICD so it can't be abused with mantra. Yes it's 20% mirror uptime but it's tied to a skill you can see being used so you can play around it.

You also forgot about Auspicious Anguish, do we really need a passive refresh of distortion? It's too much invuln uptime potentially, I'd kind of like interrupts to steal boons instead of AA, would open up chaos line to be about boon and condition manipulation/interrupts.

In regards to IH and mirage thrust, yes the constant daze is annoying without stab but it's not that busted when looking at the state of the game as a whole. That doesn't mean I think it's alright, the daze spam is annoying but you'd need to replace the daze with something so that with IH sword clones do something, what I don't know.

In general if you're making a post on the forums from a position of authority like MAT winner you should be giving your feedback a bit better and with less emotion in it. It's good you're passionate but you need to temper it with control and critical thinking.

What specifically would you like to see changed?Why specifically do you think it's too good/bad?What specific ideas do you have for it keeping in theme with the line/skill type/use of weapon etc?

[Fortus.6175]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

Yah, asking so I can copy it and kill those damn thieves if thats the case asking for a friend

I mean, @Trevor Boyer.6524 , a thief can literally disengage from any, and I mean, any build, shadowstep/SB #5/ Sword #2 on a far target/Stealth. Thieves usually only die when they overcommit in a fight or decide to play as a warrior, rather than as a +1/decap unmatched beasts they are. Will you be able to kill a DH who has 5 traps on a point and all of them off CD? Debatable, could go either way if you dodge into the point and bait the other traps, but at that point, the DH is probably sitting there alone, making the rest of the map 4v5, so go burst the rest of the team down and ignore the dude.

[apharma.3741]

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

Yah,

asking so I can copy it and kill those kitten thieves if thats the case

asking for a friend

I mean, @Trevor Boyer.6524 , a thief can literally disengage from any, and I mean, any build, shadowstep/SB #5/ Sword #2 on a far target/Stealth. Thieves usually only die when they overcommit in a fight or decide to play as a warrior, rather than as a +1/decap unmatched beasts they are. Will you be able to kill a DH who has 5 traps on a point and all of them off CD? Debatable, could go either way if you dodge into the point and bait the other traps, but at that point, the DH is probably sitting there alone, making the rest of the map 4v5, so go burst the rest of the team down and ignore the dude.

DH is a fight no thief will take, even Sindrener avoids DH most of the time because it's too risky to fight.

But just go elsewhere 4Head

Yeah but you need somewhere to go, lets say there's a 4v4 in mid, home is yours and the DH is on far what do you do? You can't do anything because your team needs to give you the smaller fights to +1. Going mid is very dangerous and DH (I'm not talking 5 trap meme, I'm talking medi trapper) will always beat you if you're on close to similar skill.

This puts the thief in a position where they are shut down just by the presence of the DH being in the game. The way the DH loses is through poor rotations. Now if you have someone to duel the DH and they do that giving you fights to +1 you can shut down the....

wait

hold up

All this is out of the thieves hands and they have no control over winning now.

[Fortus.6175]

@apharma.3741 said: words

I was following your post about halfway then it just started getting confusing and self-conflicting and....

Here, im going to reply to my understanding of what you meant to write:

If you own home, and their DH is at far, and there is a fight mid, at most the enemy can have 4 people mid. If you own home, you can either have someone, or no one there, so in theory, you can have up to 5 people mid. My math skills are advanced enough to recognize that 5>4, in fact, when you +1 a 4, you get 5. So if the mid fight is 4v4, and you disengage far and go mid, you effectively +1'ed mid and made it 5v4. In theory, that means you should be able to win mid, eventually, if your team cant 5v4 and win mid, then thats another issue entirely on its own. I mean, winning a 4v5 is already difficult, if MMR are similar, that means the number disadvantage should mean the team with fewer people loses, so again, you should be winning mid.

You gain more points having 2 points, than having 1 point. Also, each kill gives 5 points each. If you have home and mid, and are killing people as they walk in because DH is just sitting at far, then no need for you to engage far and risk the advantage. Does it always play out that way? No, maybe someone on the enemy team goes to your home, but that makes mid 5v3 or 4v3 if you or someone in your team decides to engage that person home, regardless, it is a number advantage every time.

If the DH leaves far to go mid, then they cant catch up with a thief, it is just not happening. It takes 4 seconds to decap, 13 to recap, one dodge to ignore traps, and thieves will always outmanuever a DH by equipping SB. Again, you lose only if you engage, but by playing around it, you should be fine.

[rng.1024]

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

Yah,

asking so I can copy it and kill those kitten thieves if thats the case

asking for a friend

I mean, @Trevor Boyer.6524 , a thief can literally disengage from any, and I mean, any build, shadowstep/SB #5/ Sword #2 on a far target/Stealth. Thieves usually only die when they overcommit in a fight or decide to play as a warrior, rather than as a +1/decap unmatched beasts they are. Will you be able to kill a DH who has 5 traps on a point and all of them off CD? Debatable, could go either way if you dodge into the point and bait the other traps, but at that point, the DH is probably sitting there alone, making the rest of the map 4v5, so go burst the rest of the team down and ignore the dude.

DH is a fight no thief will take, even Sindrener avoids DH most of the time because it's too risky to fight.

But just go elsewhere 4Head

Yeah but you need somewhere to go, lets say there's a 4v4 in mid, home is yours and the DH is on far what do you do? You can't do anything because your team needs to give you the smaller fights to +1. Going mid is very dangerous and DH (I'm not talking 5 trap meme, I'm talking medi trapper) will always beat you if you're on close to similar skill.

This puts the thief in a position where they are shut down just by the presence of the DH being in the game. The way the DH loses is through poor rotations. Now if you have someone to duel the DH and they do that giving you fights to +1 you can shut down the....

wait

hold up

All this is out of the thieves hands and they have no control over winning now.

Why on earth would you as a thief go contest an enemy held far node in a losing matchup? If anything the thief should help pick of players in mid and let them send a duelist to far instead. If this happens at the end of a match or your team is currently under, more often than not doing this will be a decisive throw by the thief - regardless of whether he wins it or not (alot can happen at mid during that time, and points keep ticking throughout).

[apharma.3741]

@rng.1024 said:

@apharma.3741 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@Quadox.7834

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

Yah,

asking so I can copy it and kill those kitten thieves if thats the case

asking for a friend

I mean, @Trevor Boyer.6524 , a thief can literally disengage from any, and I mean, any build, shadowstep/SB #5/ Sword #2 on a far target/Stealth. Thieves usually only die when they overcommit in a fight or decide to play as a warrior, rather than as a +1/decap unmatched beasts they are. Will you be able to kill a DH who has 5 traps on a point and all of them off CD? Debatable, could go either way if you dodge into the point and bait the other traps, but at that point, the DH is probably sitting there alone, making the rest of the map 4v5, so go burst the rest of the team down and ignore the dude.

DH is a fight no thief will take, even Sindrener avoids DH most of the time because it's too risky to fight.

But just go elsewhere 4Head

Yeah but you need somewhere to go, lets say there's a 4v4 in mid, home is yours and the DH is on far what do you do? You can't do anything because your team needs to give you the smaller fights to +1. Going mid is very dangerous and DH (I'm not talking 5 trap meme, I'm talking medi trapper) will always beat you if you're on close to similar skill.

This puts the thief in a position where they are shut down just by the presence of the DH being in the game. The way the DH loses is through poor rotations. Now if you have someone to duel the DH and they do that giving you fights to +1 you can shut down the....

wait

hold up

All this is out of the thieves hands and they have no control over winning now.

Why on earth would you as a thief go contest an enemy held far node in a losing matchup? If anything the thief should help pick of players in mid and let them send a duelist to far instead. If this happens at the end of a match or your team is currently under, more often than not doing this will be a decisive throw by the thief - regardless of whether he wins it or not (alot can happen at mid during that time, and points keep ticking throughout).

That's my point, that if a DH is far you have the choice of a losing match up or to join in a teamfight which is almost as bad, there's no place for you to make a good play only the lesser of a really bad situation. You're completely reliant on your team not being potatoes but current meta is 3 boiled, 1 mashed per game.

[sephiroth.4217]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

I have a thread about Retaliation and if it needs a nerf or not, inside that thread you will find a troll build I posted that exceeds well over 20k in damage...Whirling Wrath is about 14k on its own.

Before you jump on the "viability platinum legendary meta" train, the build is just about having fun. It beats plat players and the like but again, its just for fun. The build is one of those things where dropping your nuke will result in about 10k damage from retal

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

I have a thread about Retaliation and if it needs a nerf or not, inside that thread you will find a troll build I posted that exceeds well over 20k in damage...Whirling Wrath is about 14k on its own.

Before you jump on the "viability platinum legendary meta" train, the build is just about having fun. It beats plat players and the like but again, its just for fun. The build is one of those things where dropping your nuke will result in about 10k damage from retal

I went in game to test it myself and pretty much ran a Core Guard where Virtues was replaced with Dragonhunter, while it ran JI/Smite Condition/Test of Faith. It could burst around 40k within 2 or 3 seconds if everything in the combo hit. And with even just short combos like "Whirling Wrath > JI > Shield of Wrath" it easily hit over 20k in the first .50s of the burst.

Not sure where the "Please show me a DH build that can burst 20k" comment came from there. Possibly it was straight out silver division.

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

I have a thread about Retaliation and if it needs a nerf or not, inside that thread you will find a troll build I posted that exceeds well over 20k in damage...Whirling Wrath is about 14k on its own.

Before you jump on the "viability platinum legendary meta" train, the build is just about having fun. It beats plat players and the like but again, its just for fun. The build is one of those things where dropping your nuke will result in about 10k damage from retal

I went in game to test it myself and pretty much ran a Core Guard where Virtues was replaced with Dragonhunter, while it ran JI/Smite Condition/Test of Faith. It could burst around 40k within 2 or 3 seconds if everything in the combo hit. And with even just short combos like "Whirling Wrath > JI > Shield of Wrath" it easily hit over 20k in the first .50s of the burst.

Not sure where the "Please show me a DH build that can burst 20k" comment came from there. Possibly it was straight out silver division.

I'm actually legendary each and every season so far. I was talking about a non-meme build that could actually perform.

I could equip zerk amulet on a war with str and arms(?) Full signet and crit for 18k with dagger offhand. Doesn't really say much though.So you can save your condescending tone.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

I have a thread about Retaliation and if it needs a nerf or not, inside that thread you will find a troll build I posted that exceeds well over 20k in damage...Whirling Wrath is about 14k on its own.

Before you jump on the "viability platinum legendary meta" train, the build is just about having fun. It beats plat players and the like but again, its just for fun. The build is one of those things where dropping your nuke will result in about 10k damage from retal

I went in game to test it myself and pretty much ran a Core Guard where Virtues was replaced with Dragonhunter, while it ran JI/Smite Condition/Test of Faith. It could burst around 40k within 2 or 3 seconds if everything in the combo hit. And with even just short combos like "Whirling Wrath > JI > Shield of Wrath" it easily hit over 20k in the first .50s of the burst.

Not sure where the "Please show me a DH build that can burst 20k" comment came from there. Possibly it was straight out silver division.

I'm actually legendary each and every season so far. I was talking about a non-meme build that could actually perform.

I could equip zerk amulet on a war with str and arms(?) Full signet and crit for 18k with dagger offhand. Doesn't really say much though.So you can save your condescending tone.

Didn't seem like you knew much about Guardian/DH tbh. You're the one that asked: "Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst" as if it were strange & unlikely that a valk/radiance based guardian build could burst 20k, so it was explained it to you. Maybe you should have saved your own condescending remark, if you don't like it when discussions turn condescending in general.

Oh and, INB4 "Here are my credentials and I am a very good player and I am better than you" as if forum users were not aware of what a player must do, to be able to play 1800+ top 10 each season. Getting back on track, this discussion was about how DH counters Thief in combat, which is true and it probably always will be. My comment and this discussion was not about the variation in damage between all possible DH builds, and it certainly was not about the history of your seasonal play.

Getting really back on track, this thread was a discussion about Mirage. Which in my opinion, although I feel the nerfs were in the wrong places, should be an adequate adjustment vs. damage output. But I'd of personally rather seen nerfs to just Infinite Horizon & Illusionary Ambush. That would have solved the problems in a simpler way, imo.

[Math.5123]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Quadox.7834"

The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s. A Thief cannot run from a good player on DH, it has to avoid it completely unless there is confusion in a team fight.

Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst.

I have a thread about Retaliation and if it needs a nerf or not, inside that thread you will find a troll build I posted that exceeds well over 20k in damage...Whirling Wrath is about 14k on its own.

Before you jump on the "viability platinum legendary meta" train, the build is just about having fun. It beats plat players and the like but again, its just for fun. The build is one of those things where dropping your nuke will result in about 10k damage from retal

I went in game to test it myself and pretty much ran a Core Guard where Virtues was replaced with Dragonhunter, while it ran JI/Smite Condition/Test of Faith. It could burst around 40k within 2 or 3 seconds if everything in the combo hit. And with even just short combos like "Whirling Wrath > JI > Shield of Wrath" it easily hit over 20k in the first .50s of the burst.

Not sure where the "Please show me a DH build that can burst 20k" comment came from there. Possibly it was straight out silver division.

I'm actually legendary each and every season so far. I was talking about a non-meme build that could actually perform.

I could equip zerk amulet on a war with str and arms(?) Full signet and crit for 18k with dagger offhand. Doesn't really say much though.So you can save your condescending tone.

Didn't seem like you knew much about Guardian/DH tbh. You're the one that asked: "Please, show me this DH build with 20k burst" as if it were strange & unlikely that a valk/radiance based guardian build could burst 20k, so it was explained it to you. Maybe you should have saved your own condescending remark, if you don't like it when discussions turn condescending in general.

Oh and, INB4 "Here are my credentials and I am a very good player and I am better than you" as if forum users were not aware of what a player must do, to be able to play 1800+ top 10 each season. Getting back on track, this discussion was about how DH counters Thief in combat, which is true and it probably always will be. My comment and this discussion was not about the variation in damage between all possible DH builds, and it certainly was not about the history of your seasonal play.

Getting really back on track, this thread was a discussion about Mirage. Which in my opinion, although I feel the nerfs were in the wrong places, should be an adequate adjustment vs. damage output. But I'd of personally rather seen nerfs to just Infinite Horizon & Illusionary Ambush. That would have solved the problems in a simpler way, imo.

The way you stated it "The thing with DH vs Thief, is that the DH has Spear of Justice 6s reveal/pull, Judge's Intervention, and enough instant use burst skills to land an easy 20k damage in about .25s.", made it sound like it was actually a viable build. The way you said "instant use burst skills" and then turn around saying Shield of Wrath with its 4 second wind up, and Whirling Wrath which (even with quickness applied) is far from instant burst.

Guess it was a misunderstanding, thats all.