Upcoming Deadly Ambition Change, I don't think it's the change we need.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

Very near future release note:

• Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

I don't think this change is correct to fix the real issue, it will only highlight the problem more while hurting every other off-meta condi thief build that literally recieve no complaints.

How many threads do we see people complain about condi P/D thieves, condi staff thieves, condi dp thieves, condi double dagger thieves, or even single pistol condi thieves?

Zero.

Because they all have counter play and have to actually work and use strategy to get any damage done.

When people are complaining about condi thief, and condi daredevil, they are refering to the condi s/d daredevil. https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition

The issue with this build (not related to power) is the ability to port in, immoblize and proc poison, and dodge throwing 4 cover condis on top of the poison. Playing from safety.

Immobilize grants poison when you bring panic strike, and sword 2 poisons every time you land it with this trait, so you might think the issue is either panic strike or sword 2.

Why are the other builds ok?

A little thing called LOS limitations, that's right, you need to see your target.

I am humbly appealing you consider making changes to panic strike or sword 2 (panic strike) instead of this, or you will steal (pun intended) hear complaints about s/d condi thief.

[Alatar.7364]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

Very near future release note:

• Deadly Ambition: The internal cooldown of this trait has been increased from 5 to 10 seconds in PvP only. The stacks of poison has been decreased from 2 to 1 in PvP only.We're not sure it's enough but hopefully a good start.

I don't think this change is correct to fix the real issue, it will only highlight the problem more while hurting every other off-meta condi thief build that literally recieve no complaints.

How many threads do we see people complain about condi P/D thieves, condi staff thieves, condi dp thieves, condi double dagger thieves, or even single pistol condi thieves?

Zero.

Because they all have counter play and have to actually work and use strategy to get any damage done.

When people are complaining about condi thief, and condi daredevil, they are refering to the condi s/d daredevil.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_S/D_Condition

The issue with this build (not related to power) is the ability to port in, immoblize and proc poison, and dodge throwing 4 cover condis on top of the poison. Playing from safety.

Immobilize grants poison when you bring panic strike, and sword 2 poisons every time you land it with this trait, so you might think the issue is either panic strike or sword 2.

Why are the other builds ok?

A little thing called LOS limitations, that's right, you need to see your target.

I am humbly appealing you consider making changes to panic strike or sword 2 (panic strike) instead of this, or you will steal (pun intended) hear complaints about s/d condi thief.

Indeed, as I said in other thread I personally don't believe that DA should be touched at all.It is definitely Sword#2 that needs to be changed, make it criple + chill or slow, eventually you can take Torment out of Lotus Training and possibly if still not enough remove LTs whirl finisher capability.

[Kageseigi.2150]

Not a good change. Thieves need more access to Poison's heal reduction, not less. As a Power Thief, I would prefer to remove the damage from Poison instead of the ability to apply it.

If not removing the damage from Poison, can we get a different type of "poison" that just reduces the enemy's healing? I still suggest a new Debilitated condition that acts more like a true poison, which actually debilitates the enemy's ability to both kill and survive.

After all, why would a sneaky Thief be fighting with weapons that weren't dipped/forged with debilitating poisons by default?

Ps. If they're going to reduce the Poison potential from Deadly Ambition, can they at least merge Leeching Venoms with it? That could keep Deadly Ambition from becoming worthless, it would actually allow for Leeching Venom to be used, and it would free up a space for a new trait in Shadow Arts.

[Curennos.9307]

Wait what?

They're...doubling the ICD and halving the application? That's...not going to do anything concerning what people are actually complaining about.

The biggest part of the issue is, imo, the # of condis applied by Lotus dodge and its interaction with other traits. 3 additional condis - bleed, torment, cripple. These are three EXTRA condis that serve as cover for the damaging conditions and keep the thief safe. It's icing on the cake that the condis are applied by three SEPARATE projectiles, which will each consume one stack of Spider venom for +3 poison stacks. It's a hefty chunk of extra condi cover that, in addition to thief's weakness uptime via Weakening Strikes, provides lots of debilitating + cover condis to protect the poison stacks. Playing around with thief's weakness uptime (for ex, lower weakening strikes after a dodge to THREE charges lasting for 4 sec that apply 1 sec of weakness each, which would remove the ability to dodge -> stack 3 sec -> dodge -> stack another 3 sec. This would encourage offensive play after a dodge if the thief wanted something to protect them while they were offensive - likely not evading - and thus vulnerable). Anet could even reduce or change Lotus Poison's duration. There's a lot of ways they could address people's concerns - messing with Deadly Ambition is...an EXTREMELY small part of an issue, and it doesn't really contribute to the issue in the slightest. It's just...there.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Its panic strike, stop blaming sword #2 because guess what, body shot can "spam" imobilze too.

[dDuff.3860]

"Ewww, dont nerf ma dedly ambishn, it makes my off-meta build viable" kids. Ofc it is a deadly ambition that is a part of the problem. Free poison resource-free application.

The deadly ambition with 2 stacks of poison on its own shouldn't have been added to the game in the first place. Now you complain about fixing stuff that is obviously overtuned. Ppl rarely complained about condi thief before that trait was added, and panic strike was a reasonable thing because guess what, you have to spend resources to proc it, be it stealth attack or initiative.

Now passive damage application gets reduced, you aren't awarded by poison for free, just for staying in combat. Well, you're, but the reward is twice lesser.If you like playing condi thief (yikes), despite the build you still save passive poison application, it isn't that braindead to apply poison anymore and you gotta watch those condi clears. Step up guys.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Its panic strike, stop blaming sword #2 because guess what, body shot can "spam" imobilze too.

That's possibly true, about the panic strike.

But, unlike sword 2, body shot can't go through walls or carry you up vertically.

I know condi DE is abusing the panic strike though.

I'm divided on this, but either being hit will put s/d dd to sleep for good.

[Curennos.9307]

Here is the entire condi bomb:

• Panic Strike - from sword2 immob, 2 stacks of poison, 3.5 sec duration. Adds approx 1k damage. (285 dmg/sec)

• Deadly Ambition - 3 stacks, 5 1/4 sec duration, adds ~2300 damage (~438 dmg/sec)

• Swipe: 3 stacks, 17 3/4 sec duration, adds 7700 dmg (~433 dmg/sec)

• Spider Venom, 4 stacks (1 charge on infiltrator's strike landing, 3 on dodge if all three projectiels hit), 10 3/4 sec duration ~1500 dmg each. 1500 * 4 = 6k, (~560 dmg/sec)

• Impaling Lotus - not poison, but eh. 600 dmg from bleeding over 5 sec, 337/673 from torment, and cripple. Cripple falls off in a second

And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

WITHOUT steal or spider venom, it looks like:

Panic strike, deadly ambition, and that's it, for a total of 5 stacks of poison and...3300 damage? Ish? (more like 3450 or something, but w/e).

Every five seconds. 3450/5 = 690 dmg/sec.

These numbers brought to you buy Deadshot amulet, scavenger runes, no sigil of venom.

Deadly Ambition, and to an extent panic strike, help give a boost to thief's lesser used weapon sets/condi builds. It just looks weird because the damage is coming from traits instead of the actual skill like pretty much every other class in the game. Body Shot's damage numbers are so pathetic its effectively zero. Infiltrator's strike on a condi build has a tooltip of 266.

So the whole 'It's panic strike, stop blaming ' is utter nonsense. You can wait 3-4 seconds for cripple and torment to fall off, a little longer if you want the bleed and weakness gone, then cleanse. You'll take some damage. Of course you will - this is pvp. Your opponent is allowed to hit you. Condi thief - the one people complain about the most, anyway - doesn't have an AA that will apply condis on its own.

Anet could lower the duration, increase the stacks of spider venom. Or some other split between spvp and pve, cuz IIRC condi thieves in pve need that for dps.

They could add a smidge of extra time in between when the thief reaches their target with sword2 and actually hits them with the strike that immobs so that it's a little more reactable, but not so reactable that it becomes a non-issue and condi thief fades away like Thanos snapped again.

They could remove cripple from Lotus, just in case people are unable to resist mashing cleanses the moment they see condis pop up. Seriously, it's just one second, why is it even there in the first place O.o

They could change Weakening Strikes (not charge, strikes. The trait that applies weakness on your next hit after dodge, not the staff skill) to give stacks of the buff that then apply 1 sec of weakness. Same duration, requires engagement to stack up weakness.

They could shave a second off of Lotus Poison, if need be, as weakness and evade is what keeps the thief from instantly imploding in melee range.

I will be the first to point out that Anet definitely needs to take a look at the availability of cleanse skills, as it is wildly varying between classes and builds (it's easy to lol at a condi thief on a necro that takes Plague Signet, or that mesmer condi xfer skill, for example). But for the love of heck, this sprouting nonsense that's easily disproved by actually logging into the game and attacking a target dummy for 5 minutes is ridiculous.

Now back to my regularly scheduled ranting about how Infiltrator Strike's engage/disengage potential has been carrying thief for so long and we need more revamp attention than anet is willing to give.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@"Curennos.9307" said:Here is the entire condi bomb:

• Panic Strike - from sword2 immob, 2 stacks of poison, 3.5 sec duration. Adds approx 1k damage. (285 dmg/sec)

• Deadly Ambition - 3 stacks, 5 1/4 sec duration, adds ~2300 damage (~438 dmg/sec)

• Swipe: 3 stacks, 17 3/4 sec duration, adds 7700 dmg (~433 dmg/sec)

• Spider Venom, 4 stacks (1 charge on infiltrator's strike landing, 3 on dodge if all three projectiels hit), 10 3/4 sec duration ~1500 dmg each. 1500 * 4 = 6k, (~560 dmg/sec)

• Impaling Lotus - not poison, but eh. 600 dmg from bleeding over 5 sec, 337/673 from torment, and cripple. Cripple falls off in a second

And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

WITHOUT steal or spider venom, it looks like:

Panic strike, deadly ambition, and that's it, for a total of 5 stacks of poison and...3300 damage? Ish? (more like 3450 or something, but w/e).

Every five seconds. 3450/5 = 690 dmg/sec.

These numbers brought to you buy Deadshot amulet, scavenger runes, no sigil of venom.

Deadly Ambition, and to an extent panic strike, help give a boost to thief's lesser used weapon sets/condi builds. It just looks weird because the damage is coming from traits instead of the actual skill like pretty much every other class in the game. Body Shot's damage numbers are so pathetic its effectively zero. Infiltrator's strike on a condi build has a tooltip of 266.

So the whole 'It's panic strike, stop blaming ' is utter nonsense. You can wait 3-4 seconds for cripple and torment to fall off, a little longer if you want the bleed and weakness gone, then cleanse. You'll take some damage. Of course you will - this is pvp. Your opponent is allowed to hit you. Condi thief - the one people complain about the most, anyway - doesn't have an AA that will apply condis on its own.

Anet could lower the duration, increase the stacks of spider venom. Or some other split between spvp and pve, cuz IIRC condi thieves in pve need that for dps.

They could add a smidge of extra time in between when the thief reaches their target with sword2 and actually hits them with the strike that immobs so that it's a little more reactable, but not so reactable that it becomes a non-issue and condi thief fades away like Thanos snapped again.

They could remove cripple from Lotus, just in case people are unable to resist mashing cleanses the moment they see condis pop up. Seriously, it's just one second, why is it even there in the first place O.o

They could change Weakening Strikes (not charge, strikes. The trait that applies weakness on your next hit after dodge, not the staff skill) to give stacks of the buff that then apply 1 sec of weakness. Same duration, requires engagement to stack up weakness.

They could shave a second off of Lotus Poison, if need be, as weakness and evade is what keeps the thief from instantly imploding in melee range.

I will be the first to point out that Anet definitely needs to take a look at the availability of cleanse skills, as it is wildly varying between classes and builds (it's easy to lol at a condi thief on a necro that takes Plague Signet, or that mesmer condi xfer skill, for example). But for the love of heck, this sprouting nonsense that's easily disproved by actually logging into the game and attacking a target dummy for 5 minutes is ridiculous.

Now back to my regularly scheduled ranting about how Infiltrator Strike's engage/disengage potential has been carrying thief for so long and we need more revamp attention than anet is willing to give.

https://youtu.be/Wh9ItTOrlvg

I want to go with the flow with the rest of the thief community.

I said it is sword 2 that the problem lies, but some are saying NO it's panic strike.

SO, I say ok. It might be panic strike.

In the video, I do 3 things:

• Port S2 and Dodge x 2
• The FULL Burst (port with venom, swipe, dodge) x 1
• Port S2 x 4

Each of those are lethal on a static opponent...errr...dummy.

I used the metabattle build with one change to thorns.

I did what you said, and logged into and tested.

If I had been a bit to the right and down the stairs, I could still do these combos with s/d condi dd.

They would not work with p/d or rifle or staff or dp or dd.

So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Curennos.9307" said:And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

Playing against conditions would be so much easier if Anet would finally "grey out" the amount of health on the healthbar that applied conditions will damage if left uncleansed. People have been requesting it for years, but to no avail. The game just wasn't designed (well) in this regard. A power build and a condition build can apply the exact same (number of) conditions. But the amount of potential damage and even the duration of conditions are not immediately apparent. So on initial contact with an enemy and getting hit with several conditions, I don't know if it will be devastating enough to make using my cleanse worth it.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Putting conditions aside, I think the current design of Infiltrator's Strike is what makes the Sword workable. Changing anything would hamstring Power builds. The Immobilize (no dodging) allows a quick follow-up attack, be it Cloak and Dagger, Flanking Strike, or even just an auto-attack (which feels so slow compared to Dagger's). Not needing LoS allows a Thief to ambush from a hidden location (which suits the Thief perfectly) and also a safe escape (though not guaranteed due to the interruptible Infiltrator's Return)... it also allows that needed vertical mobility that other weapons lack outside of Shortbow.

Whether or not Condition Thieves are out of control, Power Thieves certainly are not. Unfortunately, Anet has intertwined too many things, so bringing one thing back into balance may very well knock another thing out, whether to become overpowered or underpowered. Personally, I wish Anet would prioritize boosting Power Thieves' combat ability over dealing with Condition Thieves. If Power Thieves were more effective, more Thief players would play them instead of condi builds. If Condition Thieves are still a problem, deal with them then.

Trust me, I don't like condition spam. Never have. But I'd rather be given the tools to deal with those builds (i.e. enough lethal power to burst them down quickly) than to have them neutered by the devs. After all, even if Condition Thieves do get hammered into oblivion, I'm still going to have to deal with every other profession's condi builds... and also all of their power builds which are naturally superior to my poor Power Thief.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

Playing against conditions would be so much easier if Anet would finally "grey out" the amount of health on the healthbar that applied conditions will damage if left uncleansed. People have been requesting it for years, but to no avail. The game just wasn't designed (well) in this regard. A power build and a condition build can apply the exact same (number of) conditions. But the amount of potential damage and even the duration of conditions are not immediately apparent. So on initial contact with an enemy and getting hit with several conditions, I don't know if it will be devastating enough to make using my cleanse worth it.

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Putting conditions aside, I think the current design of Infiltrator's Strike is what makes the Sword workable. Changing anything would hamstring Power builds. The Immobilize (no dodging) allows a quick follow-up attack, be it Cloak and Dagger, Flanking Strike, or even just an auto-attack (which feels so slow compared to Dagger's). Not needing LoS allows a Thief to ambush from a hidden location (which suits the Thief perfectly) and also a safe escape (though not guaranteed due to the interruptible Infiltrator's Return)... it also allows that needed vertical mobility that other weapons lack outside of Shortbow.

Whether or not Condition Thieves are out of control, Power Thieves certainly are not. Unfortunately, Anet has intertwined too many things, so bringing one thing back into balance may very well knock another thing out, whether to become overpowered or underpowered. Personally, I wish Anet would prioritize boosting Power Thieves' combat ability over dealing with Condition Thieves. If Power Thieves were more effective, more Thief players would play them instead of condi builds. If Condition Thieves are still a problem, deal with them then.

Trust me, I don't like condition spam. Never have. But I'd rather be given the tools to deal with those builds (i.e. enough lethal power to burst them down quickly) than to have them neutered by the devs. After all, even if Condition Thieves do get hammered into oblivion, I'm still going to have to deal with every other profession's condi builds... and also all of their power builds which are naturally superior to my poor Power Thief.

The thing is, i can land attack with dp, and there is no immobile on them.

I don't buy the "we need the immobile".

The kit needs more "oomph" to other skills for sure.

But saying we need immobile to land hits that's like getting one of your brothers to hold the youngest while you punch him.

[Curennos.9307]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:Here is the entire condi bomb:

• Panic Strike - from sword2 immob, 2 stacks of poison, 3.5 sec duration. Adds approx 1k damage. (285 dmg/sec)

• Deadly Ambition - 3 stacks, 5 1/4 sec duration, adds ~2300 damage (~438 dmg/sec)

• Swipe: 3 stacks, 17 3/4 sec duration, adds 7700 dmg (~433 dmg/sec)

• Spider Venom, 4 stacks (1 charge on infiltrator's strike landing, 3 on dodge if all three projectiels hit), 10 3/4 sec duration ~1500 dmg each. 1500 * 4 = 6k, (~560 dmg/sec)

• Impaling Lotus - not poison, but eh. 600 dmg from bleeding over 5 sec, 337/673 from torment, and cripple. Cripple falls off in a second

And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

WITHOUT steal or spider venom, it looks like:

Panic strike, deadly ambition, and that's it, for a total of 5 stacks of poison and...3300 damage? Ish? (more like 3450 or something, but w/e).

Every five seconds. 3450/5 = 690 dmg/sec.

These numbers brought to you buy Deadshot amulet, scavenger runes, no sigil of venom.

Deadly Ambition, and to an extent panic strike, help give a boost to thief's lesser used weapon sets/condi builds. It just looks weird because the damage is coming from traits instead of the actual skill like pretty much every other class in the game. Body Shot's damage numbers are so pathetic its effectively zero. Infiltrator's strike on a condi build has a tooltip of 266.

So the whole 'It's panic strike, stop blaming ' is utter nonsense. You can wait 3-4 seconds for cripple and torment to fall off, a little longer if you want the bleed and weakness gone, then cleanse. You'll take some damage. Of course you will - this is pvp. Your opponent is allowed to hit you. Condi thief - the one people complain about the most, anyway - doesn't have an AA that will apply condis on its own.

Anet could lower the duration, increase the stacks of spider venom. Or some other split between spvp and pve, cuz IIRC condi thieves in pve need that for dps.

They could add a smidge of extra time in between when the thief reaches their target with sword2 and actually hits them with the strike that immobs so that it's a little more reactable, but not so reactable that it becomes a non-issue and condi thief fades away like Thanos snapped again.

They could remove cripple from Lotus, just in case people are unable to resist mashing cleanses the moment they see condis pop up. Seriously, it's just one second, why is it even there in the first place O.o

They could change Weakening Strikes (not charge, strikes. The trait that applies weakness on your next hit after dodge, not the staff skill) to give stacks of the buff that then apply 1 sec of weakness. Same duration, requires engagement to stack up weakness.

They could shave a second off of Lotus Poison, if need be, as weakness and evade is what keeps the thief from instantly imploding in melee range.

I will be the first to point out that Anet definitely needs to take a look at the availability of cleanse skills, as it is wildly varying between classes and builds (it's easy to lol at a condi thief on a necro that takes Plague Signet, or that mesmer condi xfer skill, for example). But for the love of heck, this sprouting nonsense that's easily disproved by actually logging into the game and attacking a target dummy for 5 minutes is ridiculous.

Now back to my regularly scheduled ranting about how Infiltrator Strike's engage/disengage potential has been carrying thief for so long and we need more revamp attention than anet is willing to give.

https://youtu.be/Wh9ItTOrlvg

I want to go with the flow with the rest of the thief community.

I said it is sword 2 that the problem lies, but some are saying NO it's panic strike.

SO, I say ok. It might be panic strike.

In the video, I do 3 things:

• Port S2 and Dodge x 2
• The FULL Burst (port with venom, swipe, dodge) x 1
• Port S2 x 4

Each of those are lethal on a static opponent...errr...dummy.

I used the metabattle build with one change to thorns.

I did what you said, and logged into and tested.

If I had been a bit to the right and down the stairs, I could still do these combos with s/d condi dd.

They would not work with p/d or rifle or staff or dp or dd.

So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Pardon - my post was definitely not aimed at you, though props for the video.

[Curennos.9307]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

Playing against conditions would be so much easier if Anet would finally "grey out" the amount of health on the healthbar that applied conditions will damage if left uncleansed. People have been requesting it for years, but to no avail. The game just wasn't designed (well) in this regard. A power build and a condition build can apply the exact same (number of) conditions. But the amount of potential damage and even the duration of conditions are not immediately apparent. So on initial contact with an enemy and getting hit with several conditions, I don't know if it will be devastating enough to make using my cleanse worth it.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Putting conditions aside, I think the current design of Infiltrator's Strike is what makes the Sword workable. Changing anything would hamstring Power builds. The Immobilize (no dodging) allows a quick follow-up attack, be it Cloak and Dagger, Flanking Strike, or even just an auto-attack (which feels so slow compared to Dagger's). Not needing LoS allows a Thief to ambush from a hidden location (which suits the Thief perfectly) and also a safe escape (though not guaranteed due to the interruptible Infiltrator's Return)... it also allows that needed vertical mobility that other weapons lack outside of Shortbow.

Whether or not Condition Thieves are out of control, Power Thieves certainly are not. Unfortunately, Anet has intertwined too many things, so bringing one thing back into balance may very well knock another thing out, whether to become overpowered or underpowered. Personally, I wish Anet would prioritize boosting Power Thieves' combat ability over dealing with Condition Thieves. If Power Thieves were more effective, more Thief players would play them instead of condi builds. If Condition Thieves are still a problem, deal with them then.

Trust me, I don't like condition spam. Never have. But I'd rather be given the tools to deal with those builds (i.e. enough lethal power to burst them down quickly) than to have them neutered by the devs. After all, even if Condition Thieves do get hammered into oblivion, I'm still going to have to deal with every other profession's condi builds... and also all of their power builds which are naturally superior to my poor Power Thief.

The thing is, i can land attack with dp, and there is no immobile on them.

I don't buy the "we need the immobile".

The kit needs more "oomph" to other skills for sure.

But saying we need immobile to land hits that's like getting one of your brothers to hold the youngest while you punch him.

I like the immob, if only for that it gives the thief SOME teamfight utility. Even a short immob on an opponent who isn't expecting it can really help turn the tables. Ofc I don't want to turn thief into any supporty...whatever, or imply that's the goal, but it's a nice side-benefit of immob on the skill.

Don't forget that sword-pistol is a thing. The immob can really help land the .75 cast time skill - sword/dagger isn't the only one that has it, even if it doesn't depend on the immob itself as much. sword/pistol definitely does tho, since it doesn't have an on-demand evade built in to the set. It HAS an evade in pistol whip, but imagine your dodges all lagged behind by .75 seconds. You could easily get yourself killed.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

Playing against conditions would be so much easier if Anet would finally "grey out" the amount of health on the healthbar that applied conditions will damage if left uncleansed. People have been requesting it for years, but to no avail. The game just wasn't designed (well) in this regard. A power build and a condition build can apply the exact same (number of) conditions. But the amount of potential damage and even the duration of conditions are not immediately apparent. So on initial contact with an enemy and getting hit with several conditions, I don't know if it will be devastating enough to make using my cleanse worth it.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Putting conditions aside, I think the current design of Infiltrator's Strike is what makes the Sword workable. Changing anything would hamstring Power builds. The Immobilize (no dodging) allows a quick follow-up attack, be it Cloak and Dagger, Flanking Strike, or even just an auto-attack (which feels so slow compared to Dagger's). Not needing LoS allows a Thief to ambush from a hidden location (which suits the Thief perfectly) and also a safe escape (though not guaranteed due to the interruptible Infiltrator's Return)... it also allows that needed vertical mobility that other weapons lack outside of Shortbow.

Whether or not Condition Thieves are out of control, Power Thieves certainly are not. Unfortunately, Anet has intertwined too many things, so bringing one thing back into balance may very well knock another thing out, whether to become overpowered or underpowered. Personally, I wish Anet would prioritize boosting Power Thieves' combat ability over dealing with Condition Thieves. If Power Thieves were more effective, more Thief players would play them instead of condi builds. If Condition Thieves are still a problem, deal with them then.

Trust me, I don't like condition spam. Never have. But I'd rather be given the tools to deal with those builds (i.e. enough lethal power to burst them down quickly) than to have them neutered by the devs. After all, even if Condition Thieves do get hammered into oblivion, I'm still going to have to deal with every other profession's condi builds... and also all of their power builds which are naturally superior to my poor Power Thief.

The thing is, i can land attack with dp, and there is no immobile on them.

I don't buy the "we need the immobile".

The kit needs more "oomph" to other skills for sure.

But saying we need immobile to land hits that's like getting one of your brothers to hold the youngest while you punch him.

I like the immob, if only for that it gives the thief SOME teamfight utility. Even a short immob on an opponent who isn't expecting it can really help turn the tables. Ofc I don't want to turn thief into any supporty...whatever, or imply that's the goal, but it's a nice side-benefit of immob on the skill.

Don't forget that sword-pistol is a thing. The immob can really help land the .75 cast time skill - sword/dagger isn't the only one that has it, even if it doesn't depend on the immob itself as much. sword/pistol definitely does tho, since it doesn't have an on-demand evade built in to the set. It HAS an evade in pistol whip, but imagine your dodges all lagged behind by .75 seconds. You could easily get yourself killed.

Ah, well that is true. Holding them still for the stun is pretty important.

I have a s/p thief.

What if it slowed for the same duration instead?

( i mean these are all dreams, the devs decide. But, i like to have healthy discussion)

[Curennos.9307]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Kageseigi.2150 said:

@Curennos.9307 said:And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

Playing against conditions would be so much easier if Anet would finally "grey out" the amount of health on the healthbar that applied conditions will damage if left uncleansed. People have been requesting it for years, but to no avail. The game just wasn't designed (well) in this regard. A power build and a condition build can apply the exact same (number of) conditions. But the amount of potential damage and even the duration of conditions are not immediately apparent. So on initial contact with an enemy and getting hit with several conditions, I don't know if it will be devastating enough to make using my cleanse worth it.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

Putting conditions aside, I think the current design of Infiltrator's Strike is what makes the Sword workable. Changing anything would hamstring Power builds. The Immobilize (no dodging) allows a quick follow-up attack, be it Cloak and Dagger, Flanking Strike, or even just an auto-attack (which feels so slow compared to Dagger's). Not needing LoS allows a Thief to ambush from a hidden location (which suits the Thief perfectly) and also a safe escape (though not guaranteed due to the interruptible Infiltrator's Return)... it also allows that needed vertical mobility that other weapons lack outside of Shortbow.

Whether or not Condition Thieves are out of control, Power Thieves certainly are not. Unfortunately, Anet has intertwined too many things, so bringing one thing back into balance may very well knock another thing out, whether to become overpowered or underpowered. Personally, I wish Anet would prioritize boosting Power Thieves' combat ability over dealing with Condition Thieves. If Power Thieves were more effective, more Thief players would play them instead of condi builds. If Condition Thieves are still a problem, deal with them then.

Trust me, I don't like condition spam. Never have. But I'd rather be given the tools to deal with those builds (i.e. enough lethal power to burst them down quickly) than to have them neutered by the devs. After all, even if Condition Thieves do get hammered into oblivion, I'm still going to have to deal with every other profession's condi builds... and also all of their power builds which are naturally superior to my poor Power Thief.

The thing is, i can land attack with dp, and there is no immobile on them.

I don't buy the "we need the immobile".

The kit needs more "oomph" to other skills for sure.

But saying we need immobile to land hits that's like getting one of your brothers to hold the youngest while you punch him.

I like the immob, if only for that it gives the thief SOME teamfight utility. Even a short immob on an opponent who isn't expecting it can really help turn the tables. Ofc I don't want to turn thief into any supporty...whatever, or imply that's the goal, but it's a nice side-benefit of immob on the skill.

Don't forget that sword-pistol is a thing. The immob can really help land the .75 cast time skill - sword/dagger isn't the only one that has it, even if it doesn't depend on the immob itself as much. sword/pistol definitely does tho, since it doesn't have an on-demand evade built in to the set. It HAS an evade in pistol whip, but imagine your dodges all lagged behind by .75 seconds. You could easily get yourself killed.

Ah, well that is true. Holding them still for the stun is pretty important.

I have a s/p thief.

What if it slowed for the same duration instead?

( i mean these are all dreams, the devs decide. But, i like to have healthy discussion)

Huh...actually, I completely forgot Slow existed xD That would be pretty cool - it'd be a bit of a nerf and a bit of a buff, somehow. I just want sword2 to have SOME protection in there that ensures the thief doesn't get blown up instantly when they gap close, as that's a very real danger. If sword2 doesn't apply immob, it won't poison - if it doesn't apply poison, it doesn't apply weakness. If there's no weakness, any power setup can just explode on the spot if there's no CC involved and you can easily be screwed over.

Having slow on there would nicely delay any retaliation, and still help. Though tbh I have zero experience with how effective slow actually is in practice...I know warr dagger 2 has it, but it can be hard to tell if it's actually helping any.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@"Curennos.9307" said:Here is the entire condi bomb:

• Panic Strike - from sword2 immob, 2 stacks of poison, 3.5 sec duration. Adds approx 1k damage. (285 dmg/sec)

• Deadly Ambition - 3 stacks, 5 1/4 sec duration, adds ~2300 damage (~438 dmg/sec)

• Swipe: 3 stacks, 17 3/4 sec duration, adds 7700 dmg (~433 dmg/sec)

• Spider Venom, 4 stacks (1 charge on infiltrator's strike landing, 3 on dodge if all three projectiels hit), 10 3/4 sec duration ~1500 dmg each. 1500 * 4 = 6k, (~560 dmg/sec)

• Impaling Lotus - not poison, but eh. 600 dmg from bleeding over 5 sec, 337/673 from torment, and cripple. Cripple falls off in a second

And here's what the enemy condi bar looks like:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/637420510858444804/unknown.png

WITHOUT steal or spider venom, it looks like:

Panic strike, deadly ambition, and that's it, for a total of 5 stacks of poison and...3300 damage? Ish? (more like 3450 or something, but w/e).

Every five seconds. 3450/5 = 690 dmg/sec.

These numbers brought to you buy Deadshot amulet, scavenger runes, no sigil of venom.

Deadly Ambition, and to an extent panic strike, help give a boost to thief's lesser used weapon sets/condi builds. It just looks weird because the damage is coming from traits instead of the actual skill like pretty much every other class in the game. Body Shot's damage numbers are so pathetic its effectively zero. Infiltrator's strike on a condi build has a tooltip of 266.

So the whole 'It's panic strike, stop blaming ' is utter nonsense. You can wait 3-4 seconds for cripple and torment to fall off, a little longer if you want the bleed and weakness gone, then cleanse. You'll take some damage. Of course you will - this is pvp. Your opponent is allowed to hit you. Condi thief - the one people complain about the most, anyway - doesn't have an AA that will apply condis on its own.

Anet could lower the duration, increase the stacks of spider venom. Or some other split between spvp and pve, cuz IIRC condi thieves in pve need that for dps.

They could add a smidge of extra time in between when the thief reaches their target with sword2 and actually hits them with the strike that immobs so that it's a little more reactable, but not so reactable that it becomes a non-issue and condi thief fades away like Thanos snapped again.

They could remove cripple from Lotus, just in case people are unable to resist mashing cleanses the moment they see condis pop up. Seriously, it's just one second, why is it even there in the first place O.o

They could change Weakening Strikes (not charge, strikes. The trait that applies weakness on your next hit after dodge, not the staff skill) to give stacks of the buff that then apply 1 sec of weakness. Same duration, requires engagement to stack up weakness.

They could shave a second off of Lotus Poison, if need be, as weakness and evade is what keeps the thief from instantly imploding in melee range.

I will be the first to point out that Anet definitely needs to take a look at the availability of cleanse skills, as it is wildly varying between classes and builds (it's easy to lol at a condi thief on a necro that takes Plague Signet, or that mesmer condi xfer skill, for example). But for the love of heck, this sprouting nonsense that's easily disproved by actually logging into the game and attacking a target dummy for 5 minutes is ridiculous.

Now back to my regularly scheduled ranting about how Infiltrator Strike's engage/disengage potential has been carrying thief for so long and we need more revamp attention than anet is willing to give.

https://youtu.be/Wh9ItTOrlvg

I want to go with the flow with the rest of the thief community.

I said it is sword 2 that the problem lies, but some are saying NO it's panic strike.

SO, I say ok. It might be panic strike.

In the video, I do 3 things:

• Port S2 and Dodge x 2
• The FULL Burst (port with venom, swipe, dodge) x 1
• Port S2 x 4

Each of those are lethal on a static opponent...errr...dummy.

I used the metabattle build with one change to thorns.

I did what you said, and logged into and tested.

If I had been a bit to the right and down the stairs, I could still do these combos with s/d condi dd.

They would not work with p/d or rifle or staff or dp or dd.

So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

So what your saying is, it's because you have ported into their face and dodged twice, where as p/d or rifle you stay at range. Ofc in that sence the sword version is going to be better. I doubt people would run condi s/d if panic strike got nerfed though.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:The thing is, i can land attack with dp, and there is no immobile on them.

I don't buy the "we need the immobile".

I understand that. I love my D/P to fight with, but I love S/D for the change up and evasion.I must say that D/P is so much easier to land hits with and stick to the target. If it had Immobile on it, that would be Game Over.

Personally, I have a much more difficult time getting hits with S/x because it just feels SOOO SLOW compared to Dagger.Also, D/P makes it much easier to land the hits with all its melee attacks. The auto-attack is lightning fast. Heartseeker literally tracks the target. And Shadow Shot not only tracks, but places the Thief right on top of the target for follow-up autos.

I can't count the number of times that my Infiltrator's Strike missed just because the target continued running forward. No dodges needed... just running. If he has Swiftness, I can't even turn around and catch him without Returning and Striking again.

Again, personally, I don't care about the Poison or Panic Strike. For all I care, replace it with Weakness. The more Weakness, the better.

But saying we need immobile to land hits that's like getting one of your brothers to hold the youngest while you punch him.

That's what brothers are for! ;-D

Hmm, maybe we can get Thieves Guild to hold down enemies for us??? I guess we get lucky with its Scorpion Wire sometimes.

I would disagree with one thing, though. Only sometimes is it the youngest that's being held down. Many times, it's the bigger, badder, oldest that's getting held down... and that's the only way to even stand a chance :-P

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

I say replace it chill, maybe 1.5 secs.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

The greatness, not power, is that it can be spammed and applies immobile on a port even without los. There is NONE greater

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

If that's what you're asking, then it's a dumb question. That's like asking if there's any other Thief, of course the answer is there isn't.

It is the Thief's mechanic to get in, deal damage, and get out better than other professions. The moment the profession cannot do that is the moment the profession dies.

But if you're looking for professions who can port in and burst, then there's plenty. You're just not looking hard enough.

EDIT: forgot "deal damage"

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Crab Fear.1624 said:So, I ask myself "is it sword 2, or panic strike?"

The evidence is clear that it is indeed S2.

It is panic strike. The poison granted by panic strike should only apply if panic strike applied the immobilize.

It should function like this;Panic Strike 30s ICD

• Striking a foe below the health threshold poisons and immobilize them.Threshold: 50%

Now, leave Sword #2 alone.

EDIT: Leave Deadly Ambition alone too.

Does any other sword wielder have a faster chain for autos or any greater way for closing distance than thief on sword?

It is sword 2.

100%

It seems like you're not familiar with Mesmer Sword #3 -> Sword #2 combo.

Yeah, I guess not.

What were the cooldowns on those again?

First you ask if another exist, now that it does, you move the goal post talking about CDs. /smh

The amount of damage the skill deals is why they have longer CD. The damage of Thief Sword #2 is not even close compare to Mesmer Sword #2 if you're looking at DPS.

Heck even Guardian's Sword #2 deals more damage.

As fast or greater way, that was the details. goal post was same spot.

You didn't present a faster auto chain or greater way.

If that's what you're asking, then it's a dumb question. That's like asking if there's any other Thief, of course the answer is there isn't.

It is the Thief's mechanic to get in, deal damage, and get out better than other professions. The moment the profession cannot do that is the moment the profession dies.

But if you're looking for professions who can port in and burst, then there's plenty. You're just not looking hard enough.

EDIT: forgot "deal damage"

My question is why does it need the immobilze?

If you fail, you can spam try again.