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Conquest is the real problem and a big reason of the current toxic meta


Sombrero.9204

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I genuinely think since launc that Conquest gamemode is really not enjoyable and has flaws making some builds way stronger than they would be in any other setting. There is two major problems with Conquest that I will explain seperately but are actually combined and make the experience really not fun to play.

First of all as I said just before Conquest very heavily favor three type of builds: high mobility builds, very high sustain builds and very good aoe effect builds. High mobility builds are favored by the fact that running quickly to points to decap and eventually cap afterwards means more points for the team. It is so favored that some people are running builds meant to never engage in any fight but only run and survive, and the worst part in this is that this kind of build is actually very good to win a match in particular in matchmaking context. Having your "close" point constantly decapped means that you have to decide whether you decide to sacrifice a team member to stay on it ad vitam eternam or instead to try to use the man advantage to cap other points. The problem is that the super mobile build will manage to decap in no time and re-join his teammates to help slightly in fight when needed, those builds being mostly thieves (and to some extent mesmers) they have most of the time good nuke potential and manage to essentially still help in fights during key moments. To be honest that type of gameplay requires skill to be pulled-off effectively (by this I mean not simply decap but also fighting) but last time I checked GW2 is not a racing game or a platforming multiplayer contest. Having so much emphasis on moving around to the point that avoiding entirely conflict can be rewarded is absurd and I'm not even talking about the anti-fun aspect creating a naturally toxic environment. Very heavy sustain builds on the other hand tend to be slower but to stay on a point to keep it forever, whether it is close, mid or far it doesn't really matter. Some metas had very strong bunker builds and the Dragonslayer is the most iconic example of such gamestyle. This time around bunker builds often require very low skill to be used correctly (simply having defensive skills and gear is enough) and all tactics involving to play as a bunker are mostly basics. Again, like high mobility builds, bunker builds are really anti-fun and create more frustration than anything. Lastly high aoe potential builds are naturally stronger because Conquest requires you to stand in a circle to capture points in order to score for your team. So if you can target the circle entirely very repetitively you are quite certain to do very well. Those builds are not neceesarily anti-fun by design but the problem is that being forced to capture small areas make the situation really not fun and messy as the best way to counter an aoe-based build is to move around in the environment (by doing that you never capture the points and never score).If you think about it both Spellbreakers and Scourge are two specializations that are extremely inclined on at least one of those three aspects. The spellbraker is particularly good at all three being fast to move around the map with many mobility spells, extremly sustainable and having a super strong aoe capacity with full-counter (the cooldown so low making it a constant threat). The Scourge is by default quite slower and can be more easily put down thanks to mobile power based ranged builds (thief double pistol or rifle, pretty much all bow power based builds etc), the problem is that the damage is so incredibly high and the aoe so easily massive that this only allows the Scourge to completely deny any capture point in a second.

The second problem (even though it's actually part of the first) is the gamemode itself and its rules. Beyond the fact that it favors way too much many anti-fun tactics the gamemode causes many problems on many different levels. I don't want to be too redudant with the first part so I will focus on specific parts being down states and general communication and understanding issues. Guild Wars 2 as you all know introduced a fairly unique idea for MMOs at least being the down state. Simlilarly to many modern FPS games GW2 allows for players to be downed on the ground before dying and even coming back to life if they manage to secure a kill before dying or if an ally help them to get back up. This came with the idea of breaking the sacred trinity of tank/heal/dps used by a huge majority of RPG based games (which is by the way I think another reason of the failure of PvP and the only fact that Druid has been ever created is a clear statement that they regret that decision nowadays). So why down state is a problem for conquest ? There is many issues with the interaction of those two design choices and instead of trying to identify them all I will simply point out that at this moment in PvP people clearly prefer to never try to revive allies downed and rather kill enemies. The points stated before make the problem even greater as fights tend to happen in small circular areas where downed players are stacked all around which gives even more power to aoe builds and create situation where sometimes 3 players on each side are downed at the same time and throwing rocks at each other like toddlers to figure out who will win the fight (sounds epic right?). I will develop slightly more on that point in my conclusion/suggestions part so stay with me!The other aspect I mentioned is the problems of communication and undestanding brought by Conquest. To make it simple Conquest is a huge chaotic mess and 5 years after launch of the game there is still no clear idea in any player's mind on what strategies are best to employ and what is recommended to do in Conquest. Should we split, should we not, should we revive, should we not and so on. Of course you will find players that will say things like "1 close 4 mid noob" and such but I have never seen a PvP format in any game where players after 5 years have still generally no idea what is the best course of action to do. There is never any strategy involved (especially in matchmaking scenarios) and it's just a huge mess of 10 players trying to figure out what they can do at each given moment. That fact is further reinforced by the problems stated above: bunker, mobile and aoe builds will have a very clear goal on their mind to win the game so they will know what to do (because they will be inferior in other context anyway). The game forces you to play an anti-fun build or you are stuck in the chaos trying to get things done somehow by magic.

So after all those critics what would I suggest to improve things ?Well a very simple thing, kill conquest entirely. Keep the maps as they are and simply make a 5vs5 team deathmatch with a time limit of 10 minutes and the first team with all 5 members dead loses the game, no automatic resurrection possible. This will not only entirely solve all problems of builds stated above (those builds will still have a use in certain context but won't be the dominant answer to the problem, aoe may be the only type of build still a bit superior because of down state but with clever balancing it can be done well). This will also naturally push players to coordinate their moves and strategy to win the game. Helping a downed ally would be actually crucial to avoid being outnumbered, using "reviving" skills would finally have a meaning. High cooldown skills would be riskier to use and would require more thoughts put into their use. Every class and specialization could find a use to win fights and every type of build could shine equally. A heavy crowd controle build could help the team disrupting the enemies while high damage builds nuke the key targets and supports could actually retaliate damage for the team and eventually heal a bit. Guild Wars 1 was featuring this type of gamemode and it was just a lot of fun. In my opinion Guild Wars 2 has a gameplay that favors a lot more that type of gamemode (down state, dodges, no trinity etc.). When a team wins the members stay together and are automatically put against another team and they can chain victories to have the best streak possible, the bigger the winning streak the better are the rewards. A specific premade 5vs5 format could be made in parallel and already existing maps could be kept as they are, even letting special gimmicks almost intact to create different dynamics on each map.

I would like to hear your thoughts on this, I was having the hope that Arenanet would do something about PvP with the new expansion but sadly still nothing. I think this suggestion would be very easy to implement and solve a lot of issues and bring a lot of fun back into the game. Also it would naturally make Scourge (even in their current state) weaker and easier to counter, spellbreakers would still be super strong and still need heavy balancing but I hope you see why this suggestion could solve many issues. It would have solved the too strong Dragonslayer we had or any similar super tanky builds in the past (elementalist, druids and so on).

Please stay constructive with your feedback guys!

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I never forced you to read it. So why complaining about the length ? It's a thing if I was saying nothing all along or repeting the same idea over and over, but when there's a lot of problems a long thread is required, specially when 99% of posts on this forum are free whine without anything constructive to suggest behind it. Your post just proved it, "it needs to be better but I have no idea how, good luck devs". Doesn't help.

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@Sombrero.9204 said:I never forced you to read it. So why complaining about the length ? It's a thing if I was saying nothing all along or repeting the same idea over and over, but when there's a lot of problems a long thread is required, specially when 99% of posts on this forum are free whine without anything constructive to suggest behind it. Your post just proved it, "it needs to be better but I have no idea how, good luck devs". Doesn't help.

you still atleast could space it out a litle so its not a wall of text...... nobody likes reading a wall of text...

and everyone knows all the changes that are needed are way bigger Circles + actual effort on class balancing that should also happen waaaaaaaay more often......

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@Sombrero.9204 said:I never forced you to read it. So why complaining about the length ? It's a thing if I was saying nothing all along or repeting the same idea over and over, but when there's a lot of problems a long thread is required, specially when 99% of posts on this forum are free whine without anything constructive to suggest behind it. Your post just proved it, "it needs to be better but I have no idea how, good luck devs". Doesn't help.

I highly agree, and thank you for putting forth such time and effort. Towards saying the same thing we have been saying for a very long time. I think at this point ANet simply just either don't care, or just completely understaffed, or is not giving enough resources to improve or build upon sPvP. Or all three.

But I doubt there is anything we can say to the devs. At this point. That can convince them. to make GW2's player vs. player interactions fun and engaging. So we are just left with PvE reward farming simulation 2017.

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@Reaper Alim.4176 said:

@Sombrero.9204 said:I never forced you to read it. So why complaining about the length ? It's a thing if I was saying nothing all along or repeting the same idea over and over, but when there's a lot of problems a long thread is required, specially when 99% of posts on this forum are free whine without anything constructive to suggest behind it. Your post just proved it, "it needs to be better but I have no idea how, good luck devs". Doesn't help.

I highly agree, and thank you for putting forth such time and effort. Towards saying the same thing we have been saying for a very long time. I think at this point ANet simply just either don't care, or just completely understaffed, or is not giving enough resources to improve or build upon sPvP. Or all three.

But I doubt there is anything we can say to the devs. At this point. That can convince them. to make GW2's player vs. player interactions fun and engaging. So we are just left with PvE reward farming simulation 2017.

I can't agree more, if PoF wasn't at a low price I wouldn't have bought it. I'm already bored of the obvious lack of content beside map completion (which isn't very long either). I really don't get what they are intending to do with this product. So many decisions they are taking are obviously bad ideas, have been majorly negatively anticipated and when experienced negatively recieved too. Mounts are the new excitement for everybody and will cause huge problems in just a few months because now exploration is triviliazed. The only one thing that was well done in the past year being the new maps of living world are now killed in the egg with mounts. I really hope they can save PvP because I'm not into what they are doing with PvE at all and WvW isn't my cup of tea.

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Conquest isn't going anywhere. As you know, this topic has been discussed ad naseum and many people despise the gamemode but that is why we were given courtyard and stronghold. Both offer alternative ways to play. We are way to late in the game's lifecycle to see a dramatic shift away from conquest however, so that is the best youre going to get if u hate conquest.

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I'm going to read the post in a minute but I just recorded the last unranked match I played to make a video of part of why I don't like conquest... Almost every encounter especially after mid is won or lost is not team vs team but rather uneven fights or 1v1s being very common. Even gvg and splitting were on an entirely different level.

Team vs pugs is no fun and you'd also notice the level of competition were higher in team arena than random arenas and the skill cap were higher in ta. Something about organized groups raised the bar in terms of skill.

GW2 Balance is to extremes with no good healers and the format has no dignity in terms of teamplay. How does the anet team see this as an upgrade to gw1 gvg? Or better yet something that would be better for a competitive market over gw1 formats? the backline keeping things alive and the team working together as a unit vs the other team.

A team of 8 actually fighting a team of 8 and not running around the map in all different directions splitting the team up to capture points? There was a lot more room for shoutcasting this format.

Kiting to self heal is way different than kiting and getting support and staying as a team working as a team. It's way more hectic without support... causes players to kite like a chicken with their head cutoff rather than kiting to avoid pressure. A healer really helps keep combat less chicken with a head cutoff kiting to self heal for a small amount. It also really helps the formats that focus on team vs team like gvg or arenas two teams stay alive until someone/team makes a really good play to put someone down or the healer has a fail. A healer also alters the builds if you know you got support warriors in this game would carry things like bullscharge/frenzy/another offensive utility and play way more aggressive now he has to remove them and play more defensive utilities relying on immunity stances and run around like a chicken with his head cutoff sometimes to heal himself while under pressure, rather than really aggressive and ballsy with support sometimes just having to kite off some pressure.

@xantosnightwish.5438 said:Conquest isn't going anywhere. As you know, this topic has been discussed ad naseum and many people despise the gamemode but that is why we were given courtyard and stronghold. Both offer alternative ways to play. We are way to late in the game's lifecycle to see a dramatic shift away from conquest however, so that is the best youre going to get if u hate conquest.

Courtyard was on conquest que not providing people that wanted to specifically play courtyard a way to play it they had to play conquest then sometimes land on courtyared after they no longer cared while playing conquest all day. Then we ended up having people complain about getting courtyard while being on conquest builds etc due to this. it shit on people both ways whether they wanted to conquest or courtyard.

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Death match + conquest = people constantly re-spawning and running all over the map. Teamwork and cohesion is largely non-existent in solo queue which is 99% of the playerbase and why people constantly blame the team.

I have no idea why they chose this as the flagship mode when GW1 had highly praised 4v4, GvG and HoH.

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@"R E F L H E X.8413" said:I'm going to read the post in a minute but I just recorded the last unranked match I played to make a video of part of why I don't like conquest... Almost every encounter especially after mid is won or lost is not team vs team but rather uneven fights or 1v1s being very common. Even gvg and splitting were on an entirely different level.

Team vs pugs is no fun and you'd also notice the level of competition were higher in team arena than random arenas and the skill cap were higher in ta. Something about organized groups raised the bar in terms of skill.

GW2 Balance is to extremes with no good healers and the format has no dignity in terms of teamplay. How does the anet team see this as an upgrade to gw1 gvg? Or better yet something that would be better for a competitive market over gw1 formats? the backline keeping things alive and the team working together as a unit vs the other team.

A team of 8 actually fighting a team of 8 and not running around the map in all different directions splitting the team up to capture points? You want to go like 3 mins into the video its not a very good one either showing teams fighting eachother.

Kiting to self heal is way different than kiting and getting support and staying as a team working as a team. It's way more hectic without support... causes players to kite like a chicken with their head cutoff rather than kiting to avoid pressure. A healer really helps keep combat less chicken with a head cutoff kiting to self heal for a small amount. It also really helps the formats that focus on team vs team like gvg or arenas two teams stay alive until someone/team makes a really good play to put someone down or the healer has a fail. A healer also alters the builds if you know you got support warriors in this game would carry things like bullscharge/frenzy/another offensive utility and play way more aggressive now he has to remove them and play more defensive utilities relying on immunity stances and run around like a chicken with his head cutoff sometimes to heal himself while under pressure, rather than really aggressive and ballsy with support sometimes just having to kite off some pressure.

@xantosnightwish.5438 said:Conquest isn't going anywhere. As you know, this topic has been discussed ad naseum and many people despise the gamemode but that is why we were given courtyard and stronghold. Both offer alternative ways to play. We are way to late in the game's lifecycle to see a dramatic shift away from conquest however, so that is the best youre going to get if u hate conquest.

Courtyard was on conquest que not providing people that wanted to specifically play courtyard a way to play it they had to play conquest then sometimes land on courtyared after they no longer cared while playing conquest all day. Then we ended up having people complain about getting courtyard while being on conquest builds etc due to this. it kitten on people both ways whether they wanted to conquest or courtyard.

Yea I remember. It was the same issue with Skyhammer before the rework where skyhammer required specific builds to be effective that were different than the standard conquest builds. It was horrible and Im glad they removed Courtyard from ranked. If build templates were properly incorporated it wouldnt be as bad but alas...

Thing is, Anet isnt going to create a deathmatch only que as that would split the small community further. If a core group of people really want deathmatch, custom arenas is where they will have to find it. There used to be a healthy community (i.e. Mistpedia) led 2v2 deathmatch scene before DPS quit the game. Our People's 2v2 tournament was the most fun Heurix and I ever had casting. So Im not hating on deathmatch, just pointing out how unlikely it is that this mode will ever see organized play support from Anet outside of gem sponsorships for community run tournaments...

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Here's my solution to the conquest problem:1) Make the points bigger. If they aren't completely covered by AoE, then you aren't forced to take the full brunt of scourge and company to stay on the point, sustain classes can be kited, and overall a wider playing field makes more ranges viable (when the points are, what, 600 diameter max excepting a few, there's not much point in a weapon over 600 range).

2) Give points a veteran guard that counts as an enemy body (WvW strength). It shouldn't take much longer to cap it, and high mobility is still viable, but there has to be some sort of benchmark for actual combat ability.

3) Make points cap at varying speeds relating to the ratio of players on them according to this formula, where T is the number of players on your team capping the point, O is the number of opposing players on the point, and C is the ratio of cap speed compared to uncontested: C = (T-O) / TThis way, having a player bunkering on a point is still useful regardless of the number of enemy players, but capping will still happen slowly regardless so long as the bunker is outnumbered. Hard numbers on the results of this: 2v1 caps at half speed, 3v1 at 2/3rds, 3v2 at 1/3rd. This also punishes selfish bunker builds: If you can't help your teammates you have limited use, since the enemy team isn't actually forced to kill you to get you off point. This of course can only happen if my first suggestion happens, or else ranged builds would get even worse.

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Make ranked solo que only, limited and exclusive sigils, medallions, weapons etc, rank progression per character not account, multiple build tabs, more visible info on the builds of other players prior to match begining and tighten up MM.

Unranked, more maps, more game modes, testing area for Anet, duo q, team q, wide range of changing signets, medallions, multiple build tabs, more info prior to match, all sorts of crazy stuff, etc.

And reskinwars. Sell reskin packs in cash shop. Reskin the enemy team, your team, or both, as evil leprechauns, busty babes, giant robots, whatever.

And do it yesterday.

Oh yeh and equilibrium is boring and doesn't generate cash flow or player base, just don't push it too far.

That's my 2c worth of opinionated opinions.

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@troops.8276 said:Make ranked solo que only

If they do that they should make ranked solo que only and team que only when there was a larger playerbase they really needed to just do it like gw1 and do straight team que and solo que + ranked versions of both.

Pure solo and pure team are more accurate depictions of ranking.

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Anything that splits the playerbase too much may snowball the MM. It must be getting close to the meaningless tipping point now. Too far the other way and high ranked players may find it mathematically impossible to find a game at all, though theoretically the median players may have no change in q times what so ever. But its all pure speculation as none of us have the data beyond the base algorithm to test such things.

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@Sombrero.9204 said:This came with the idea of breaking the sacred trinity of tank/heal/dps used by a huge majority of RPG based games (which is by the way I think another reason of the failure of PvP and the only fact that Druid has been ever created is a clear statement that they regret that decision nowadays).

I made posts I went to search for but the old gw1 qq forums are down in 2011 before release how I think conquest only was a bad idea and wouldnt attract the gw1 playerbase for long.

We could have a monk in this game and still not have the holy trinity with him. Aside from that tank/heal only works when the monster doesnt switch target so even a game as trinity as can be could have mobs that kinda break the pattern.

This holy trinity stuff is all pve talk/salespoint and there is really no trinity in pvp other than maybe range>mage>warrior>range type of deal. However the route they chose does affect our pvp.

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I kinda would like to see a pvp mode where the team size is 10, and the goal of the team is to break into the other teams keep and capture/destroy certain items within the keep to win the match. The keeps are on opposite sides of an open area littered with debris and objects, and each keep has a finite amount of ballista to use to defend their keep. take a much smaller version of Stonemist castle, without outside walls, with a bunch of traps that can be set to hinder enemy players. Thinking about it now, there could be a set of objectives that needs to be done in a certain order to reach the center of the keep to defeat a lord/ capture a whatever to win the match. So it's a race against the other team to capture their keep, while trying to keep them out of your keep at the same time. I guess it would be like Stronghold maybe, but better implemented. And you could have different maps, like a war field in Kryta, a mountainous area from Shiverpeaks, a barren wasteland from Ascalon and such.

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with the Horrible matchmaking this game has... the last thing it needs is a trinity system...

im still having nightmares from other MMOs where my group had 0-1 healers and the other like 3 and because of that they bassicaly turned god mode.......i HATE when my match is all about whos Healer is better and can carry the team harder......Healers Nullifying everything you done in seconds in a drawn out battle is the worst part of every single trinity PvP mmo...

but lets be honest ... ALL these elite specs are basicaly is a Toned down trinity.... i mean we are locked into able to use only one.... and they are specialized into prety much DPS/Support/Tanky support/Tanky DPs

and they are better then prety much anything from the original core game....

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@Zoltreez.6435 said:im still having nightmares from other MMOs where my group had 0-1 healers and the other like 3 and because of that they bassicaly turned god mode.......

This is only a problem in random matchmaking, however you could do the same thing they tell me with no resign and just play out the ten minutes its not that long it's only one match.

In organized play its nothing like this and is better/more competitive.

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In Guild Wars 1 in purely random queue you were put with absolutely random classes where sometimes you had 0 support or having several of them. Yeah you were most of the time screwed when it happened but it was part of the fun and games were so quick that you didn't really mind losing a game stupidly like that, it was a cool challenge that wasn't a huge loss if you get rekt.

The trinity is as important in PvE and PvP as said above by others it organize fights to have key targets and key roles to identify. At the moment everybody can do about everything making targeting a huge gamble (for the longest time the first target was always necro even though necros would run pure tank and have low damage which made no sense).

As for my "wall of text" I'm sorry if people are used to watch youtube and not read anything anymore but that's not my fault. My ideas are articulated according to the presentation, there is no point creating a new line for every single idea that's actually way worse for understanding and nagivation in a text.

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I genuinely think that Conquest was not meant for small number, the design of each official maps before was so great that they synergies well according to which Profession or Composition to show how wonderful the Guildwars2® trait system was. That said the none trinity part was none existence before because every core profession are meant to handle shoulder to shoulder situation like sharing important Boons to one another when properly spec for whilst putting those Utilities and Weaponry to use in mind that leads into whatever you want to build Numerically or the Subclass idea behind Core Profession as long as there is a communication between you and your ally far as genre is concern, you wont see any high quality script running rampant solo towards enemy node because the split has a drawback when they scouted you across in which you'll think twice because that'll lead into Downstate mechanic and for some known reason your ally will be force to fetch you for strategic reasoning that leads Structured Player versus Player again into a beta testing ground of builds and how to play World versus World versus World.

I can't blame people for not realizing those small details that the older Creator wanted to share but we turn blind eye, Stronghold is a nice addition so i embrace the innovation approach but seeing how they remove it in rated game and put exclusively into Custom game? i doubt it'll return.

Apparently some of the Capitalist swine wanted to make all the adjustment because my papa is rich and mobas are top notch in the market industry, so they decided to re-roll Rytlock because Charr will bow to no one, give it to Mother in her upcoming Battle Arena, introduce another way to play that exclusively locked behind paywall and bring this League system inside MMORPG in a Sandbox game whilst playing on a Live server competitively because why not? Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games are meant to play casually in Korea.

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As a lover of gw1 I've been saying since day one of gw2 that conq was not going to work in competitive play. In hw1 you kill or are filled and that's it. There is no "hey you hold mid, you do this, you do that" it was kill or be killed. Simple.

When gw2 was made with PvP maps where speed is 95% of the game but then you make 2 class able to jump across the map in about 30 seconds or less that makes no sense. I played a teefy as my main at gw2 start but I don't play PvP teef anymore. After about 2 months of just being a circle dancer I moved on.

Now it's as tho if you don't have a message or teef speedster on your team then you are at a major disadvantage.

Then they try to make a spec for the speedster that takes the speed away (dead eye) and everyone laughs because you can't give up speed in a speed based map.

Life would be better in PvP and would work better if all maps we're converted to some sort of TDM with a mechanic. Not conq with a mechanic.

Hell make the little circles in the maps give a bonus. Not points.

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While I agree with you that conquest is massively flawed and TDM would better suit the way PvP is in GW2, the real problem is the developers in this situation. There is very little reason for them to care much about sPvP because they've failed too many times to make the mode stick in the competitive communities and without that competitive stick there isn't really any way they can make profit off of the PvP.

They also probably think TDM won't work anyways because of the old map "Courtyard" didn't really work out well. Honestly though the map was way too small, was too much of a cluster mess on certain locations, and was a respawn based system over a much better 1 life TDM system.

I'd love to be proven wrong and have them come around to do these massive sPvP changes that need to happen, but I doubt they will ever do anything more than balance tweaks and at the very most another garbo conquest map with a gimmick.

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Generally, you have a few seconds to grab someone's attention before they click away. I looked at the OP for about 2 seconds before I went "... yeah I'm not reading that"

Use some formatting to make it a bit more readable please. I don't feel like reading 1 and a half pages of a wall of text.

It looks like you put in a decent amount of effort in creating this but its too hard to read.

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