What's the profit of running thief in your comp?

[GewRoo.4172]

My dear friend ArlAlt prompted me to make this thread.Is there a profit from running a thief nowadays? It used to be that you run thief, you concede team fights as a general rule and just stick to rotation. Nowadays it feels like you have a thief in your team and it's a drawback. Provided the thief executes his role to the T.

[Psybehr.2518]

I can relax all game knowing that it will be a loss.

This leads to lower blood pressure. Very healthy.

[GewRoo.4172]

No answers is also an answer buff thief

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@GewRoo.4172 said:Nowadays it feels like you have a thief in your team and it's a drawback.

Not only has this almost always been the case for non-premade comps or comps that have bad synergy, but despite it thief has been constantly nerfed because it embarrasses people when the player is skillful.

I don't really know what to say about it.

[Dantheman.3589]

I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

[UNOwen.7132]

@"Dantheman.3589" said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Dantheman.3589" said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

[GewRoo.4172]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

[apharma.3741]

Double thief, game lost, afk.

[UNOwen.7132]

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call bullshit on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes down significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down way more than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes

down

significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down

way more

than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

Wowowo u got almost 1k on a number that will usually go up to what I pointed out as average in actual matches. Though I’ll have to correct you as u probably don’t know the meta in top tier- prot holo is never going to be in team fights unless you in like bronze or something. When focusing something like a necro or idk a mirage even guards , when they aren’t running some like knights amulet which a prof holo might, in a team fight this number will always go up.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes

down

significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down

way more

than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

Wowowo u got almost 1k on a number that will usually go up to what I pointed out as average in actual matches. Though I’ll have to correct you as u probably don’t know the meta in top tier- prot holo is never going to be in team fights unless you in like bronze or something. When focusing something like a necro or idk a mirage even guards , when they aren’t running some like knights amulet which a prof holo might, in a team fight this number will always go up.

A thief wont be in teamfights either. Youll be +1-ing. And who would be in a position to be +1d? Why, the Prot Holo.

Also, no, even in teamfights the number goes down. Not up. Down. Significantly so, even. If youre not going to be screwed over by protection from the guard, or the necro, conditions will just be cleansed off. Including the blinding that made the difference almost 1k. So youll do minimal damage, and then the enemy turns out and obliterates you. Because youre a thief who decided to get up close in a teamfight, something thief is not able to do.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes

down

significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down

way more

than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

Wowowo u got almost 1k on a number that will usually go up to what I pointed out as average in actual matches. Though I’ll have to correct you as u probably don’t know the meta in top tier- prot holo is never going to be in team fights unless you in like bronze or something. When focusing something like a necro or idk a mirage even guards , when they aren’t running some like knights amulet which a prof holo might, in a team fight this number will always go up.

A thief wont be in teamfights either. Youll be +1-ing. And who would be in a position to be +1d? Why, the Prot Holo.

Also, no, even in teamfights the number goes

down

. Not up. Down. Significantly so, even. If youre not going to be screwed over by protection from the guard, or the necro, conditions will just be cleansed off. Including the blinding that made the difference almost 1k. So youll do minimal damage, and then the enemy turns out and obliterates you. Because youre a thief who decided to get up close in a teamfight, something thief is not able to do.

Lol I’ve never seen anyone confuse a prof holo with a team fight and a team fight for a plus 1. I’ll correct you again but this is approaching insanity levels- a plus one is a thief going to out number a fight with team mates meaning you will join a team fight to our number or join a side noder on your team etc. no where in the world will you “plus one” an enemy prot holo instead of a team fight. Unless ofc you are so bad at the game that out numbering actually turns into an advantage to the enemy, which from what I hear is the case often in bronze elo etc

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Beep ...Yes mom ...How are you ? ...Its me you Ranger son ....yeah yeah ... the one that must use offensive traits modifiers to do Burst ... so i cannot get all the diffensive traits , but i can use defencive Utilities spell + my class normal skill to surviveSay hi to dad ...love you ...bye

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes

down

significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down

way more

than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

Wowowo u got almost 1k on a number that will usually go up to what I pointed out as average in actual matches. Though I’ll have to correct you as u probably don’t know the meta in top tier- prot holo is never going to be in team fights unless you in like bronze or something. When focusing something like a necro or idk a mirage even guards , when they aren’t running some like knights amulet which a prof holo might, in a team fight this number will always go up.

A thief wont be in teamfights either. Youll be +1-ing. And who would be in a position to be +1d? Why, the Prot Holo.

Also, no, even in teamfights the number goes

down

. Not up. Down. Significantly so, even. If youre not going to be screwed over by protection from the guard, or the necro, conditions will just be cleansed off. Including the blinding that made the difference almost 1k. So youll do minimal damage, and then the enemy turns out and obliterates you. Because youre a thief who decided to get up close in a teamfight, something thief is not able to do.

Lol I’ve never seen anyone confuse a prof holo with a team fight and a team fight for a plus 1. I’ll correct you again but this is approaching insanity levels- a plus one is a thief going to out number a fight with team mates meaning you will join a team fight to our number or join a side noder on your team etc. no where in the world will you “plus one” an enemy prot holo instead of a team fight. Unless ofc you are so bad at the game that out numbering actually turns into an advantage to the enemy, which from what I hear is the case often in bronze elo etc

Ok now I have to question if you even play thief. A +1 is when the thief joins a 1v1, or a 2v2, or any kind of small scale skirmish, and makes it uneven. You never +1 a teamfight. Of course you dont, youre just irrelevant. You try to get up close and you get blown up and die and are forced to respawn, while the opposing roamer enjoys his free decaps. And of course, who do you find in a 1v1, say a fight between the kind of sidenoder playstyle? Why its our old friend, Prot Holo.

Also, the thief trying to +1 a teamfight by going in and trying to backstab people does end up being an advantage for the opposing team. Because the theif basically renders himself useless either until he gets the hell out of the teamfight he is irrelevant in, or respawns after being blown up. Turning a 1v1 or a 2v2 into a 1.5v1 or a 2.5v2 is very effective. Turning a 3v3 or a 4v4 into a 3.5v3 or a 4.5v4 is not.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@GewRoo.4172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I checked the common argument of that thread that thief does bad damage and that running SA is equal damage to crits and Da. I found that there might be a trend of slight convergence at the lowest end possible, but that’s totally expected and on average not true. Here’s some numbersExtra damage per BS with DA- 1k+ in addition to mug damage of possibility 1k moreExtra damage for high end heart seekers- up to 2.5k with maraudersSo that’s quiet a good bit extra damage on average backstab and this extends to all skills more or lessLet’s look at a crit strikes hiddenkiller + valk buildExtra damage on decent backstab - up to 3.5k and can still go up just lolExtra damage on crit of shadowshot- 1.5k extra

Now it seems to me that extra damage is actually abundant, as your burst backstab + steal can improve a lot and so can all your other skills. Granted SA has leeching venoms for like 2 stacks of tick damage, but that won’t make up for it. So it seems to me that if you think thief isn’t doing enough damage and run the lowest dps version of a build as possible, that maybe you deserved what you got

Just out of curiosity, this "extra damage" is using Executioner, right?

Nah I don’t run executioner and stuff like heart seekers , which is pretty spammable, hits on the high end iteration in the 6ks on a Da build while the SA one would hit for barely 4K. It just seems wild how I get that and maybe 1-1.5k more per backstab/shadowshot and up to 1k mug. At least to me this doesn’t seem close dps wise and crit strike builds seemed to have an even higher end

In that case Im going to have to ask, how? Deadly Arts only has 2 modifiers that can affect backstab. Executioner is one of them. Exposed Weakness the other. And for exposed weakness to add 33% damage the target would need 17 conditions. Which is higher than the highest number of conditions that exist. That is actually part of the DA problem, it doesnt really add that much damage unless the target is below 50% or had a bunch of conditions applied by whomever youre helping out with your +1.

Hey some modifiers are better than none. In the case of Sa the only extra damage is venoms which are dodgable and like about enough to make up for mug at best, whilst u get decent condition modifiers and multiple conditions some boons and improv which is probably better than anything in SA on its own. Crit strikes has better mods imo which is probably why on the highest end I’m seeing like 8k backstabs on core

Not exactly. The problem is that the modifiers, most of the time, will either be low, or redundant. SA gives you less damage, but damage is not the reason to play thief anyway, and the utility it provides is better. Thats why people dropped DA after all. Not because it doesnt do damage, but because the damage is too low either way to be worth speccing for.

I think Dans point is that u can play thief with all it's class related advantages AND the dmg output if you trait for it (maybe CS/Valk).

My point is that you cant. You can have a thief with a damage output that goes from absolutely pathetic to just pathetic, but its still pathetic. On the other hand, you lose utility. Rending Shade in particular. You also fare worse against bunker builds, since you dont have armour-ignoring damage.

See I would be fine if that was the argument but quiet literally the arguement on the other thread is that running deadly would at the most possibly give up to 1k damage to any burst and that it’s just not worth it for damage, while your argument is just it’s not worth it to spec damage. From what I saw is like I said - an average burst skill would be 1k to like 3k depending on what we are talking about, like heart seeker which I would think a 2-3k minimum difference per use on a spammable skill is pretty decent.

Except as I said, the only damage modifier you get from your version (Improv, Im assuming?) is Exposed Weakness. It wont make a 3k difference. It wont even make a 2k, or usually even a 1k difference. It will make a difference of around 800 damage.

Either way I’m just pointing out some of the arguements weren’t true and that it’s possible to do decent damage on thief, though I might be able to put it to shame with another classes numbers

I wouldnt call 8k on the burst of a full glass cannon "decent". That fails to take even half health on another squishy class, let alone anything thats got any kind of tankiness.

Yes on a heart seeker hitting someone below 25%, say a necro in shroud so u can maybe get of like 5 of these in a row, there will literally be min 2-3k damage difference with the build I’m running on average in match.Actually the build I mentioned which can hit for 8k backstab is tankier than any of the aforementioned builds, so I don’t get where ur coming with “glass cannon”Also bud those are the numbers I’m getting and Btw you cannot disprove my numbers simply by quoting me and coming up with your own

Yeah Im gonna call kitten on that. Youre using DA and CS (or trickery), none of which grant any defense. Youre certainly not going to be able to avoid using Berserkers because otherwise the damage differential would just screw you up. And you dont even have a choice in runes and sigils, because trying to swap them means loss of damage multipliers, which negates any added damage you could possibly get from DA. So, how pray tell are you trying to be tanky?

I can show that swapping SA for DA, without using executioners, makes those numbers impossible. But, just to be sure, I tested it. Backstab damage with DA was 5478. Backstab damage with SA was 4646, + 577 off of Shadow Siphoning. Even if we dont include that, or Leeching Venoms, youre still looking at only an 800 damage boost. Heartseeker wont be much better, if used right after maybe 1k. If a bit later, possibly no damage boost at all, because you need condis to do more damage in the first place. And the more armour the target has, the worse the comparision gets.

Now, lets throw Critical Strikes into the mix. I assume were going 3-2-1 because that makes the most sense. Now this time, we do get a juicy chunk on a crit. I got 6913. Compared to the DA one, thats about 1500, compared to the SA one, its just over 2k if you dont count Shadow Siphoning or Leeching Venoms. Its under 2k if you do. Thats ... not great, for losing both any utiltiy and survivability from SA, and everything Trickery gives you. Thats not ideal.

Oh and if you want the Valkyrie version, that loses you about 200 damage on the backstab. Still just over 2k if you dont count Siphoning/leeching.

Great you tested it getting similar numbers which will just go up, possibly significantly, in team fights thanks for confirming my original quote

You said you got upwards of 1k, all the way up to 3k. I tested and got considerably less. Granted, this is with steal, without stael it goes

down

significantly. Oh and in teamfights, it goes down

way more

than just that. Teamfights right now involve stuff like Prot Holo. Youre lucky if there are even any conditions that dont get converted, let alone no protection. Go ahead, if you want to play a class that in teamfights does like 4k burst damage and then gets obliterated, be my guest. That doesnt seem useful to me.

Wowowo u got almost 1k on a number that will usually go up to what I pointed out as average in actual matches. Though I’ll have to correct you as u probably don’t know the meta in top tier- prot holo is never going to be in team fights unless you in like bronze or something. When focusing something like a necro or idk a mirage even guards , when they aren’t running some like knights amulet which a prof holo might, in a team fight this number will always go up.

A thief wont be in teamfights either. Youll be +1-ing. And who would be in a position to be +1d? Why, the Prot Holo.

Also, no, even in teamfights the number goes

down

. Not up. Down. Significantly so, even. If youre not going to be screwed over by protection from the guard, or the necro, conditions will just be cleansed off. Including the blinding that made the difference almost 1k. So youll do minimal damage, and then the enemy turns out and obliterates you. Because youre a thief who decided to get up close in a teamfight, something thief is not able to do.

Lol I’ve never seen anyone confuse a prof holo with a team fight and a team fight for a plus 1. I’ll correct you again but this is approaching insanity levels- a plus one is a thief going to out number a fight with team mates meaning you will join a team fight to our number or join a side noder on your team etc. no where in the world will you “plus one” an enemy prot holo instead of a team fight. Unless ofc you are so bad at the game that out numbering actually turns into an advantage to the enemy, which from what I hear is the case often in bronze elo etc

Ok now I have to question if you even play thief. A +1 is when the thief joins a 1v1, or a 2v2, or any kind of small scale skirmish, and makes it uneven. You

never

+1 a teamfight. Of course you dont, youre just irrelevant. You try to get up close and you get blown up and die and are forced to respawn, while the opposing roamer enjoys his free decaps. And of course, who do you find in a 1v1, say a fight between the kind of sidenoder playstyle? Why its our old friend, Prot Holo.

Also, the thief trying to +1 a teamfight by going in and trying to backstab people

does

end up being an advantage for the opposing team. Because the theif basically renders himself useless either until he gets the hell out of the teamfight he is irrelevant in, or respawns after being blown up. Turning a 1v1 or a 2v2 into a 1.5v1 or a 2.5v2 is very effective. Turning a 3v3 or a 4v4 into a 3.5v3 or a 4.5v4 is not.

Yes because in all the teamfights , the enemy is stacked ontop the base , like a swarm .Its not like they are afraid of aoesIts not like there is a ranged character on the back alone , or some meele whos is chasing your caster .Everything happens on the node

If the Holo camps the sidenode ...Thens its 5 ppl from your team vs 4 , trying to get the 2 nodes .While the Holo is akf in far ....(leave him)

thank god i took ''c'' in maths and ''d'' in my own language ...otheriwise i would overthing too much everything